At 7/13/06 07:53 PM, StoneColdSteve wrote: "they were Roman Catholic Holy Wars to recapture Jerusalem and the Holy Land from the Muslims"

Which goes against your original statement that they were just defending themselves. They wanted to add that land to the Holy Empire.

At 7/13/06 07:53 PM, StoneColdSteve wrote: "they were Roman Catholic Holy Wars to recapture Jerusalem and the Holy Land from the Muslims"

Yes,and how do you expect they did that?By slaughtering them.The Crusaders when they finally captured Jerusalem slaughtered the inhabitants including Christian,Muslim,Jew.100 years later when Saladin took back the city he allowed the inhabitants to stay or leave with their lives.He even showed mercy to the Christian knights who had previously killed innocents.

I don't want to get into the debate about the Crusades because everyone knows it was the Christians fault and I want to concentrate on todays crisis in the Middle East.

All right this site explains everything that happened during the seve crusades http://www.asmilan.o..de/the7crusades.html

You can say the christins started it when they attacked i can say the turks started when they invaded the holy land.But whatever i also dont want this to turn into a crusade debate.

O ya and when you say saliden showed mercy did you mean when he killed most of them when they ran out of food and sold the survivers into slavery?

At 7/13/06 03:40 PM, JohnnyWang wrote: In the current situation, I support Palestine, since they are the underdog, and they often lack basic necesseraties. They have a right to live, and since they're not recieveing the same hefty benefits Israel is, someone needs to help them to build their own future.

Being the underdog, and lacking basic necessities does not give any of them the right to be terrorists. Israel was actually helping the disputed territories before handing it over to the PLO, and the reasons the Palestinians are as in good shape as they are (compared to the rest of the Arabs) is largely due to Israel.

How this would be reached? Israel needs to take a less agressive stance, start giving aid to palestinians in need (some money diverted away from the army, you still get millions from USA, what's a few choppers less?). You need to open discussion, and start a ceasefire, 100%, no occational firings. A small period when you will absolutely not attack anyone unless they attack you. You need to declare Palestine and Palestinians, because despite what they tell you, THEY DO EXIST AS A NATION AND A PEOPLE.

Besides declaring Palestine as a nation, because its not ready to be a nation yet, and isn’t a nation yet, everything you suggest for Israel to do has been tried. It has all failed, as the terrorists continue to attack.

Off course, Palestinians need to do a lot too. Stop violence. Stop counting on the other Arab nations. They don't care about them, that has been proven. They really hate Israel because they're the representives of USA's imperialist nature in the Middle east.

Israel doesn’t represent USA’s imperialism in the Middle East. I think the fact that Israel continually pulls out of every land it captures in war after the threat to it from that land is gone or lessoned proves that Israel is not imperialistic.

At 7/13/06 03:53 PM, JohnnyWang wrote:

At 7/13/06 03:41 PM, Iamrecognized wrote: I cannot believe that anyone thinks that Isreal is the teerrorist group.

Terrorism means acts of violence to changes peoples views or to intimidate them. Some of Israels actions are prime examples of State Terrorism

By that sense, every war ever fought was terrorism, because every army tries to intimidate. Israel also doesn’t want to change people’s views. So, either almost every country is a terrorist, or Israel isn’t a terrorist, by your definitions. I classify terrorism as targeting civilians.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT RELIGION. That's a lie. Some use religion as a reason, but in the end, it's about people getting evicted from their land, and wanting back.

You are right, its not about religion, or at least shouldn’t be. You are wrong, no one got evicted from their land.

When the people of Israel returned, they said they had full rights for the whole land. But what about the people who had lived there in the meanwhile?

WRONG. They never made any sort of claim like that. Those people who had lived there in the meanwhile sold land to the incoming Jews.

They are Palestinians. The peple who inhabited an area called Palestine. They are not OK with living elsewhere, the place is their home, had been for generations. Or are you seriously saying they all left completely voluntarely?

I’m seriously saying that most of them left voluntarily. Yes. I am. Propaganda of made-up Jewish atrocities and rumors of armies and massacres may have scared them into leaving. Arab country assurances that after the Jews were massacred they’d have their own land plus the Jews' land, may have helped them to leave. Seeing their rich Arabs and leaders leaving may have caused them to leave. Yes, most left voluntarily. Those that didn’t leave became Israeli citizens and enjoy the same standard of living as any Israeli.

At 7/13/06 04:59 PM, Turandot wrote: You ignore most of the things I say.

I think a lot of people are tuning you out…

You just repeat "We have a right to attack people who harbour terrorists". No, you have a right to attack terrorists. Lebanon cannot stop Hizbollah, but they were changing slowly. Now you just create more terrorists and people who hate you. You blew up their airport for no reason. You blew up a military airfield of the Government, for no reason.

So, you admit Israel has a right to attack terrorists. Now, how do you suggest Israel goes about doing that? Bet you can’t answer with something that hasn’t already been tried and failed.

At 7/13/06 05:21 PM, Turandot wrote: Because your statistics are always bias

If his statistics are biased, expose the bias. I don’t see bias, I see the revealing of bias. Enlighten me.

Get out of the thread, you are the weakest link.

No, you’ve posted the weakest links already. :)

I say we nuke mecca!

Lets see those filthy beheaders worship a glowing crater!

At 7/13/06 11:55 PM, Gon_Jinetik wrote: I say we nuke mecca!

Lets see those filthy beheaders worship a glowing crater!

I say we don't start an even bigger war.

At 7/13/06 04:47 AM, POND_MASTA_WESDOOD wrote: you know, if we just took over the entire region in a violent bloodbath, then this problem wouldn't exist.

everyone who wants to nuke the entire middle east, aise your hand

*crickets*

israel, here is why I think you take so much heat. I will start off with an analogy I think fits very well.

I liked to sleep in class alot back in High School. Especially in math, I fuckin hated math. So I slept and kept to myself in math. But my teacher was always all over my ass, even more than she was the fuckups who always got F's on their report cards and were talking and obnoxious and rude all through class. So I complained to my Dad about how unfair it was, whole story included. He said it was simple, you are not one of the idiots in the class, you are smart and she expects more out of you, not the dumbass who is going to be working at Wal Mart for the rest of his life. And it did make sense.

Israel, you are me. You are Western and modern and rich and you want all the privileges and rewards that comes with being First World, like stability, prosperity, and safety. But you are also taking the easy way out. You bomb and attack when everything suggests when it is the wrong course of action. It may not be the most manly and tenacious thing to do to turn the other check and negotiate, but it sure as hell the thing the BETTER country, the more MODERN country, the more EDUCATED country should do. The world expects more out of a country that ascends to the First World pillar. You arent China. You arent Yugoslavia. You arent Canada (haha you moose herders). You are one of the richest and most modern countries in the world. And you aint supposed to be bombing schools, power plants, bridges, and other civilian infrastructure, short of total war. And Hizbollah can not grant this war, Hamas can not grant this war. They are not able to, they are not advanced enough. So dont bomb their infrastructure and expect the world to turn a blind eye.

You cannot have your cake and eat it. And that I think is Israel's problem. You are to stuck in your current hardships to see the sea for the ocean. There is a light at the end of the tunnel but it grows fainter with every retaliation on top of retaliation.

At 7/14/06 04:38 AM, FAB0L0US wrote:

You cannot have your cake and eat it. And that I think is Israel's problem. You are to stuck in your current hardships to see the sea for the ocean. There is a light at the end of the tunnel but it grows fainter with every retaliation on top of retaliation.

Yeah but while they're preoccupied at the hippy hug other people would blow them up.

At 7/14/06 04:38 AM, FAB0L0US wrote: You cannot have your cake and eat it. And that I think is Israel's problem. You are to stuck in your current hardships to see the sea for the ocean. There is a light at the end of the tunnel but it grows fainter with every retaliation on top of retaliation.

*Fist pumps at my metaphor paragragraph, like Tiger Woods but way cooler*

Fuckin A man, I am sooooo good. Who else can put 3 metaphors like that in a row? NO ONE. Thats who.

At 7/14/06 04:49 AM, stafffighter wrote: Yeah but while they're preoccupied at the hippy hug other people would blow them up.

Wait, thats different from the situation they currently have now, exactly?

At 7/14/06 04:54 AM, FAB0L0US wrote:

At 7/14/06 04:49 AM, stafffighter wrote: Yeah but while they're preoccupied at the hippy hug other people would blow them up.

Wait, thats different from the situation they currently have now, exactly?

The same diffrence a boxing match would have if one guy went pacifist

http://littlegreenfo..rom_Lebanon&only

At 7/14/06 05:23 AM, stafffighter wrote: The same diffrence a boxing match would have if one guy went pacifist

In a boxing match the two guys are on roughly equal footing.

In one corner, the 400 pound super gorilla and still reigning champion, Israel.
In the other, the malnourished, desperate, cheap shotting Palestinian.

LET THE MATCH BEGIN!!

That shit would be over before it began because they are NOT on equal footing. And there is a big difference between being pacifist and being rational and not declaring and doing this.

Army Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz warned that the assault would widen, Israeli TV reported. If the soldiers are not returned, he said, the military would target infrastructure and "turn back the clock in Lebanon by 20 years."

Threatening to demolish a country that does not harbor Hezbollah, to my knowledge, (I have gotten the impression Lebanon is just to weak to patrol their southern areas and control it but I havent read much) and target infrastracture and set back an already war torn craphole another 20 years. Thats overkill and idiotic for TWO PEOPLE. Not rational, stupid.

If anything, it sounds more like an excuse for Israel to reoccupy their "buffer zone" and keep the UN off their ass for awhile. Im sure they would love to get those soldiers back but I am more willing to bet this is more about reinstituting that bufer zone in south Lebanon.

At 7/14/06 05:35 AM, FAB0L0US wrote:

At 7/14/06 05:23 AM, stafffighter wrote: The same diffrence a boxing match would have if one guy went pacifist

In a boxing match the two guys are on roughly equal footing.

In one corner, the 400 pound super gorilla and still reigning champion, Israel.
In the other, the malnourished, desperate, cheap shotting Palestinian.

LET THE MATCH BEGIN!!

That shit would be over before it began because they are NOT on equal footing. And there is a big difference between being pacifist and being rational and not declaring and doing this.

Army Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz warned that the assault would widen, Israeli TV reported. If the soldiers are not returned, he said, the military would target infrastructure and "turn back the clock in Lebanon by 20 years."

Threatening to demolish a country that does not harbor Hezbollah, to my knowledge, (I have gotten the impression Lebanon is just to weak to patrol their southern areas and control it but I havent read much) and target infrastracture and set back an already war torn craphole another 20 years. Thats overkill and idiotic for TWO PEOPLE. Not rational, stupid.

actually lebanon does harbor hizbullah and hizbullah holds a share in the government..... the lebenese army has the power to disarm the hizbullah..-they just won't since ....the government is still under syrian and iranian pressure...-what israel is trying to do right now is FORCE the lebanese to follow international protocols and DISARM hizbullah...... they haven't shown any will to do so .......

israel wanted to wash itself from hizbollah and lebanon-but can't possibley when soldiers are kidnapped....-if israel would allow such a thing....kidnappings would become a monthly occurance.......

also remember that the US (And every other nation that had to deal with terrorism..) acted just like israel has...-are they not 1st world??....

At 7/14/06 06:08 AM, 4aces wrote:
actually lebanon does harbor hizbullah and hizbullah holds a share in the government..... the lebenese army has the power to disarm the hizbullah..-they just won't since ....the government is still under syrian and iranian pressure...-what israel is trying to do right now is FORCE the lebanese to follow international protocols and DISARM hizbullah...... they haven't shown any will to do so .......

The Lebanese army CANNOT disarm Hez, most of their army is made up of people who are ethnically and religiously sympathetic to Hez. If they sent the army in it would likely fragment and cause civil war. (Source --> BBC)

Israel is attempting to get this to happen anyway.

They CANNOT disarm Hizbullah. Especially with the Israeli army bombing their only few military air-force bases and blockading their ports and energy needs. Hey guess what Israel blew up another power-plant today in Lebanon.

I hope that a few of your planes get shot down, then we can have the "Where is the missing pilot game" again. This isn't defence, it isn't targeted attacks against just terrorists, it's the actions of a country that perpetrates attacks against civilians on purpose, war-crimes and so forth. There is no other way to look at this constant escalation. Israel will not go even if the soldiers are handed back, and you know the forum idiots here who keep going:

"If you give them back, Israel will withdraw"

Will find some other reason to defend the murders and war crimes even if Hamas and Hez both give back the people captured. If we complain that Israel is still attacking they will say it's needed because of rockets, or Hamas, or something else. They will always defend Israel, whatever Israel does because they're biased, they're not living a life of dirt and fear like the people in Lebanon or the occupied territories.

Israel needs to be stopped, by force if Democracy and Direct Democratic Action doesn't work. I suspect Russia and China will move for strong UN motions / sanctions. Especially since China trades with Iran. etc

Pope Urban .. sounds like some sorta gangsta

yeahh....just remember israel already withdrew from lebanon...-why do you think israel wants to be in lebanon...-???? WHAT POSSIBLE LOGICAL REASON COULD THERE BE!?...the israeli army staying in lebanon-will only damage israel....-that's the damn problem with you people-hate blinds you......if it isn't logical it will not happen...-israel was not forged by satan in attempt to assasinate dolly parton and bring to power michael jackson's monkey...(or whatever...)-it works exactly the same as any other democracy works..... (and btw-parimentarian democracy(israel)>presidential democracy(US) imo-greater representation of the people..with the lack of political sability as the shortcoming..))

the occupation of lebanon will ensure the failure of the current ruling party(kadima) at the next election......israel is planning on withdrawing from the bank aswell..-what possible good could stem from occupying lebanon?!?!?!?!
israel knows the soldiers will not be released ...(but if they will be(without exchangement..)...i assure you israel will gladly cease this operation..) .-so now it's government is attempting to damage hizbullah-to prevent them from doing something like this for some time to come...

At 7/13/06 08:52 AM, gooze_bump wrote: did you guys see this?

http://news.bbc.co.u..pictures/5175418.stm


Now Israel jsut invaded an entire country (Lebandon) blowing up their infrastructures and airport killing many civilans, abnd putting the whole country on hate the israelis.

What the hell could be the reason for that, ha?...
So I'll explain - lebanon supports TERROR (=Hizbullah or Hamas), Hizbullah had kidnapped 2 Israeli soldiers (and killed over 10...), Hizbullah gets its finnancial support from Iran, they have no problem in supporting terrorism as you probbably know. - The Israelies afraid that the 2 kidnapped soldiers would be moved to Iran, and from there - there is no chance to save them.

Hope that now you understand the reason,
It wouldn't have happend if Hizbullah wouldn't possess 2 Israeli soldiers, but it's already history - Hizbullah WILL NOT RETURN TO THE ISERAELI-LEBANONI INTERNATIONAL BORDER.

I find it utterly stupid, that Hezbollah kidnapped another soldier, while they saw how Israel invaded Gaza.

THey main problem is, that there is no way to restore peace in the region because there will always be fractions that want the destruction of the Israelian state.
If there weren't any, the problem was way more easily to solve!

Seriously you racist slime, you have no idea what the heck is going on. I dare you come here and experiance the situation yourself first before you accuse one side or another of anything.

I also dare you to try and stop us from defending ourselves.

At 7/14/06 09:06 AM, TwO_FaCeD_PaRaNoID wrote: I find it utterly stupid, that Hezbollah kidnapped another soldier, while they saw how Israel invaded Gaza.

THey main problem is, that there is no way to restore peace in the region because there will always be fractions that want the destruction of the Israelian state.
If there weren't any, the problem was way more easily to solve!

Very true. I think those factions can somewhat be brought to the negotiating table, some can be destroyed and some can just be worked alongside with.

Wanting the destruction of any country is wrong. Causing the destruction of any country is wrong. We can see both sides are guilty of this. The reason why Israel is worse in my view is that they have a full choice on the force they can use. Their army is 100% loyal, etc. Hamas can't even control itself, what chance with the constant attacks by Israel can they ever pursusade militants to put guns down.

Israel fuels this fire very well.

At 7/14/06 09:37 AM, Turandot wrote:

At 7/14/06 09:06 AM, TwO_FaCeD_PaRaNoID wrote: I find it utterly stupid, that Hezbollah kidnapped another soldier, while they saw how Israel invaded Gaza.

THey main problem is, that there is no way to restore peace in the region because there will always be fractions that want the destruction of the Israelian state.
If there weren't any, the problem was way more easily to solve!

Very true. I think those factions can somewhat be brought to the negotiating table, some can be destroyed and some can just be worked alongside with.

Wanting the destruction of any country is wrong. Causing the destruction of any country is wrong. We can see both sides are guilty of this. The reason why Israel is worse in my view is that they have a full choice on the force they can use. Their army is 100% loyal, etc. Hamas can't even control itself, what chance with the constant attacks by Israel can they ever pursusade militants to put guns down.

Israel fuels this fire very well.

Yeah I think it is good that they reacted on the kidnapping, because if they didn't, it would be worse for them and more kidnappings would have followed! SInce the terrorists knew that their actions worked, they would go on!
But Israel is clearly overdoing it..! Blowing up powerstations, bridges, schools! Won't solve the problem at all!

At 7/14/06 09:52 AM, TwO_FaCeD_PaRaNoID wrote:

At 7/14/06 09:37 AM, Turandot wrote:

At 7/14/06 09:06 AM, TwO_FaCeD_PaRaNoID wrote: I find it utterly stupid, that Hezbollah kidnapped another soldier, while they saw how Israel invaded Gaza.

THey main problem is, that there is no way to restore peace in the region because there will always be fractions that want the destruction of the Israelian state.
If there weren't any, the problem was way more easily to solve!

Very true. I think those factions can somewhat be brought to the negotiating table, some can be destroyed and some can just be worked alongside with.

Wanting the destruction of any country is wrong. Causing the destruction of any country is wrong. We can see both sides are guilty of this. The reason why Israel is worse in my view is that they have a full choice on the force they can use. Their army is 100% loyal, etc. Hamas can't even control itself, what chance with the constant attacks by Israel can they ever pursusade militants to put guns down.

Israel fuels this fire very well.

Yeah I think it is good that they reacted on the kidnapping, because if they didn't, it would be worse for them and more kidnappings would have followed! SInce the terrorists knew that their actions worked, they would go on!
But Israel is clearly overdoing it..! Blowing up powerstations, bridges, schools! Won't solve the problem at all!

I totally agree with you. I think they should've tried diplomacy a bit more first. Then when and if that failed they could've used special forces or other methods to get their soldiers.

Blowing up military airfields, the international airport etc are just acts of war and breach the geneva convention, they are as terrorist acts as those commited on Israel itself.

At 7/14/06 12:00 AM, Iamrecognized wrote: I say we don't start an even bigger war.

The idea behind nuking mecca is to show the Muslims that Allah has abandoned them by allowing their most holy of religious sites to be destroyed. In theory, if Allah is not on their side, they will resign themselves to their fate and stand down their arms.

It's basically psychological warfare, but it could just as easily backfire.

*goes back to patrolling the forum*

At 7/14/06 10:02 AM, Proteas wrote:

At 7/14/06 12:00 AM, Iamrecognized wrote: I say we don't start an even bigger war.

The idea behind nuking mecca is to show the Muslims that Allah has abandoned them by allowing their most holy of religious sites to be destroyed. In theory, if Allah is not on their side, they will resign themselves to their fate and stand down their arms.

It's basically psychological warfare, but it could just as easily backfire.

*goes back to patrolling the forum*

yeah we only need an imam to say: "holy shit! allah diserted us!"
But i think they just blame us, and cause a world war..
Then i think the west will lose all their famous buildings, and publictransport but the arabians will lose eventually!

At 7/14/06 09:58 AM, Turandot wrote: I totally agree with you. I think they should've tried diplomacy a bit more first. Then when and if that failed they could've used special forces or other methods to get their soldiers.

Blowing up military airfields, the international airport etc are just acts of war and breach the geneva convention, they are as terrorist acts as those commited on Israel itself.

i simply love it how ...peole from some deserted part of the world seem to be more knowledgable than the leaders of the nations experiencing a certain incident.........
do you really think israel could nagotiate with hizbullah???-if so you are more ignorant than i had suspected.......
hizbullah wants the release of thousands of prisoners first and then the destruction of israel.... israel can't possibley nagotiate with them.....

and concerning the so called "special forces" -you people should stop playing ghost recon and start living in the real world..-israel does not know where the soldiers are...despite the rigurous attempts done by the israeli intelligence(which is btw maybe the best in the world..) ....... if israel would have known it would have done something about it....... simple as that....... unfortunately the israeli intelligence relies on snitches...-clear and simple-which are currently not supplying information......

Did anyone watch the security council meeting? I am going to ask CNN to give me a transcript.

Turandot in your first post you claim that the Israeli claims are bullshit. That the airport was bombed to restrict international aid etc. etc. etc.

How the fuck can you be certain that what the arabs say is true? Just because they have puppy eyes and cry a lot?

At 7/14/06 10:59 AM, -Akula- wrote: Turandot in your first post you claim that the Israeli claims are bullshit. That the airport was bombed to restrict international aid etc. etc. etc.

How the fuck can you be certain that what the arabs say is true? Just because they have puppy eyes and cry a lot?

The same way the likes of the BBC and CNN seem to take whatever the Israelis say as Gospel.