The Pope may have started the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition, but there were NINE official Crusades between 1095 and 1291, with three minor ones inbetween, while the Inquisition wasn't until 1478.

My point? One man may have been responsible if they were lumped together, but this was a continuation and therefore many men were responsible, annd many sought the upkeep of rape, slaughter, torture, and all the general other things associated with them.

Similarly, a lot of Jihad is kept up by one leader, but there seems to be a succession that keeps it going, or several leaders on similar wavelengths that get bandied together as one, despite differing views and methods to several aspects of their actions.

At 7/13/06 03:40 PM, JohnnyWang wrote: Also, one thing, in case you didn't know:

I am not anti-Israel. I am not pro-muslim, pro-judaism or anything. I'm pro-socialism, but that's hardly relevant here.

In the current situation, I support Palestine, since they are the underdog, and they often lack basic necesseraties. They have a right to live, and since they're not recieveing the same hefty benefits Israel is, someone needs to help them to build their own future.

In my ideal situation, the area would be a secular, or bi-religious country where people can leave side by side, and not diveded in different areas. Israelites have a right for a land. Palestinians have a right for a land.

How this would be reached? Israel needs to take a less agressive stance, start giving aid to palestinians in need (some money diverted away from the army, you still get millions from USA, what's a few choppers less?). You need to open discussion, and start a ceasefire, 100%, no occational firings. A small period when you will absolutely not attack anyone unless they attack you. You need to declare Palestine and Palestinians, because despite what they tell you, THEY DO EXIST AS A NATION AND A PEOPLE.

Off course, Palestinians need to do a lot too. Stop violence. Stop counting on the other Arab nations. They don't care about them, that has been proven. They really hate Israel because they're the representives of USA's imperialist nature in the Middle east.

the us financial assistance to israel is very minor compared to the israeli budget....the important help is a political one in the shape of international support....

israel supplies most of the needs of the palestinian authority.....(water,gas,MONEY,weaponary..
.etc.)

do you know how much israel would like what you just said?...i won't elaborate too much-but......until the palestinian side begins cooperating(especially now with a left wing government on the israeli side..) such thing will not occur...

At 7/13/06 03:41 PM, Iamrecognized wrote: I cannot believe that anyone thinks that Isreal is the teerrorist group.

Terrorism means acts of violence to changes peoples views or to intimidate them. Some of Israels actions are prime examples of State Terrorism

Now, from back a few pages ago, this is a Holy war. The Muslims want Jerusalem, because it is Islam's third holiest site. But it is the most important city for both Judaism and Christianity. So how about a comromise. Let's see if the Muslims will go for this:
They can have Jerusalem, but the Isrealis get Mecca! It's fair isn't it?

Shut up.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT RELIGION. That's a lie. Some use religion as a reason, but in the end, it's about people getting evicted from their land, and wanting back.

The people of Israel spread out in the great Diaspora. What and when this happened, I'm not sure, but they're returning. After hundreds of years In the meanwhile, people lived on the land, harvested for food there, had families. When the people of Israel returned, they said they had full rights for the whole land. But what about the people who had lived there in the meanwhile?

They are not Lebanese. They are not syrian, they are not Egyptian.

They are Palestinians. The peple who inhabited an area called Palestine. They are not OK with living elsewhere, the place is their home, had been for generations. Or are you seriously saying they all left completely voluntarely?

At 7/13/06 03:43 PM, D2KVirus wrote: History and Theology.

I won't argue with you here, I am not that good with theology and very tired at the moment to start checking out sources.

At 7/13/06 03:40 PM, JohnnyWang wrote:

How this would be reached? Israel needs to take a less agressive stance, start giving aid to palestinians in need (some money diverted away from the army, you still get millions from USA, what's a few choppers less?). You need to open discussion, and start a ceasefire, 100%, no occational firings. A small period when you will absolutely not attack anyone unless they attack you. You need to declare Palestine and Palestinians, because despite what they tell you, THEY DO EXIST AS A NATION AND A PEOPLE.

You say don't attack unless you get attacked. But that is exactly what Israel has been doing and even more so. They have supported Palestine in history, they abused their helped and responded with violence. Israel didn't give them crap for the Kassam missles but now they just went too far with it. There is a certain point when a country says 'fuck it, we won't take this shit anymore' and respond with fire. And usually this ends well for that country.

Also there has never been a war STARTED by the jews, it's always Islamic Extremists that start the wars, not the Israeli's nor the Jews. And the right to defend one's nation is totally fine.

Off course, Palestinians need to do a lot too. Stop violence. Stop counting on the other Arab nations. They don't care about them, that has been proven. They really hate Israel because they're the representives of USA's imperialist nature in the Middle east.

They globally hate the jews, they share the same ideas as Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Syria etc. The thing is they will firstly destroy Europe because it's the easiest part to infiltrate from the inside, and after that they will take on the rest of the world, thus unleashign WW3. I believe that it is going to be a war between US and Israel vs. Arab nations.

But as I said, I hate to debate threw the internet, I find it tiresome and I get this weird feeling of slight nauseia (sp?). I get it all the time when I spend too much time typing :P

Also Sarai you want to know why they blew that airport and not just because there were weapons there? They blew it because they knew that Hesbollah used the airport to transfer militants to Iran and they would also use it to transfer the captured Israeli soldiers. So blowing up the airport was a good move. They were asking for it. Oh and you don't need an airport for international aid, don't give me that bullshit.

At 7/13/06 04:17 PM, -Akula- wrote: The thing is they will firstly destroy Europe because it's the easiest part to infiltrate from the inside, and after that they will take on the rest of the world, thus unleashign WW3.

Ok, that is just paranoid conspiracy bullshit.

Its hard to excuse the killing of children and civilians as you can imagine.

The thing is, you cant just excuse the religious tension from the area, this is an area of the world that has been a center for conflict for thousands of years. From the get go we should admit that this has something if not all to do with the religious differences. Now lets go into the land aspect of it, both sides are in the very essence assholes to eachother, they always have. I dont like either side but I dont think we should support Israel just because the are the underdog of the world, because of their size. Their military is strong though so what are we supporting? Ill give you what might be an easy answer but ill give you a hint, it has to do with the Bible!

Instead of condeming the actions of Israel and Palestine the Bush administration as well as other countries are taking the bible and using it as a sheild to justify their actions against civilians and children. Instead of supporting what could turn into a civil war, lets condem it and work to stop it.

My two cents.

At 7/13/06 04:26 PM, JohnnyWang wrote:

At 7/13/06 04:17 PM, -Akula- wrote: The thing is they will firstly destroy Europe because it's the easiest part to infiltrate from the inside, and after that they will take on the rest of the world, thus unleashign WW3.

Ok, that is just paranoid conspiracy bullshit.

Meh yeah I was writing doomsday scenario there. But as I have noticed in Holland, they run most extremist operations through holland because we have certain laws and we don't check for terrorism. Recently money transfers to terrorist organizations have been discovered that were going threw Dutch banks.

But I must say I agree with 4aces, and Johnny, to them this war is about religion. I will guarantee you that when they get Palestine back, by that I mean the FULL israeli state they will still want more. I know the nature of these people myself, trust me on this one, I know them firsthand. They won't be satisfied. They will go on until the whole world is dominated by the Islam only.

Now I know what you might say here. The people who talk about religious view are mostly from Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan, but remember that we are talking about a unified terrorist idea and a unified network. The terrorists in Iraq who claim the Jihad to be the only tool to destroy all non believers (every single other religion) are the same people who wage war in Gaza. It's actually the other way around Johnny, saying that it's about land is an arab excuse to desguise the real nature of the full operation, and that is to turn good ol' planet earth into one huge islamic state.

Now I don't know about you, but I would rather fight my way out than to ever abid by Islamic rules. You see I don't go shooting around if someone's a muslim, nor do I tell them to become a jew. I expect the same thing back, but if someone's expect's me to drop my religion and become a muslim I have my own method of dealing with it.

A perfect example is that first they only wanted Gaza, they gave them Gaza and now they want to have the whole of Israel. Also if all of the jews leave Israel it will have one hell of an impact on the world economy. Israel is currently THE high tech country. Communication companies want their products to be built in Israel because there you have loads of 'geniusses' so to say. If you surrender it to a horde of un-educated Palestinians you will get a wasteland.

And if you will try to educate them they will spit in your face and launch a Kassam missile (sp?)

Now if you will excuse I will shut down the computer and take a rest, I will check back tomorrow.

Also, John i've noticed how you ignore some parts of the posts I make. :P Does that mean I am getting somewhere? I try to answer all aspects in your posts, you only answer certain statements in my posts. :P Don't want to offend you here tough buddy.

At 7/13/06 04:18 AM, Turandot wrote:

On the other hand, Palestinian and Arab civilians live in daily fear of helicopter gunships, shelling, smart-missiles, attack-drones and Israeli soldiers who murder and shoot Civilians and then get away with it.

Wow, again, the pro-terrorist side proves its stupidity.

Israel murders schoolchild (Oct 2004)

United Nations condemns repeated murders of schoolchildren by Israeli weapons fire (Sept 2004)

Oh, look at that: It's a kid with a BOMB. The ARABS place those.

Think about this.

"Almost 1900 Palestinians have been killed since the start of the “al-Aqsa Intifada”, compared to almost 700 Israelis" (as of 2003). These stats are basically balanced. So, let's take a look at the composition of these deaths.

1 of every 8 palestinian deaths is due to their own weapons fire, 57.5% were combatants or violent protestors and 20% were unidentifiable. Let's see...78.5% of Israeli casualties were NONCOMBATANTS.

Dumbass.

At 7/13/06 04:43 PM, -Akula- wrote: Also, John i've noticed how you ignore some parts of the posts I make. :P Does that mean I am getting somewhere? I try to answer all aspects in your posts, you only answer certain statements in my posts. :P Don't want to offend you here tough buddy.

You ignore most of the things I say. Same as all Israel supporters. All of them ignore that the EU, UN, and other countries condemn what they're doing. All of you ignore the links to stories of schoolchildren shot my your soldiers, all of you ignore everything else as well.

You just repeat "We have a right to attack people who harbour terrorists". No, you have a right to attack terrorists. Lebanon cannot stop Hizbollah, but they were changing slowly. Now you just create more terrorists and people who hate you. You blew up their airport for no reason. You blew up a military airfield of the Government, for no reason.

I wish your Government could be targeted for 'liquidation' as your amazing spokesmen like to say their murder of others.

At 7/13/06 03:40 PM, JohnnyWang wrote:

In the current situation, I support Palestine, since they are the underdog, and they often lack basic necesseraties. They have a right to live, and since they're not recieveing the same hefty benefits Israel is, someone needs to help them to build their own future.

1. There is no "Palestine."
2. "Palestine" recieved millions of dollars, and yet, Yassir Arafat ALONE stole $900 million.
3. They lack neccessities because so much money and time is spent on terror.

If they stopped spending money and time on terror, they could have a good society. If they wanted peace, they could AGREE WITH ONE OF ISRAEL'S PEACE OVERTURES, overtures which have been made even BEFORE 1948.

In my ideal situation, the area would be a secular, or bi-religious country

That's not feasible.

How this would be reached? Israel needs to take a less agressive stance, start giving aid to palestinians in need (some money diverted away from the army, you still get millions from USA, what's a few choppers less?).

Imagine that you're a nation of 7 million people surrounded by dozens of millions of Arab terrorists (Lebanese, Syrians, Palestinians)...

THEY DO EXIST AS A NATION AND A PEOPLE.

They have no distinct culture.

Off course, Palestinians need to do a lot too. Stop violence. Stop counting on the other Arab nations. They don't care about them, that has been proven. They really hate Israel because they're the representives of USA's imperialist nature in the Middle east.

Imperialist? There was a de-facto Israel pre-1948, and your best friend, the UN, established Israel. The USSR RECOGNIZED ISRAEL JUST AFTER THE US. Imperialist, huh?

At 7/13/06 04:59 PM, GSgt_Liberal wrote:

At 7/13/06 04:18 AM, Turandot wrote:

On the other hand, Palestinian and Arab civilians live in daily fear of helicopter gunships, shelling, smart-missiles, attack-drones and Israeli soldiers who murder and shoot Civilians and then get away with it.

Wow, again, the pro-terrorist side proves its stupidity.

Israel murders schoolchild (Oct 2004)

United Nations condemns repeated murders of schoolchildren by Israeli weapons fire (Sept 2004)

Oh, look at that: It's a kid with a BOMB. The ARABS place those.

Read the links or don't post. The child was sitting in her schooldesk and was hit by gunfire. No bombs involved. READ OR DONT POST YOUR RUBBISH.

At 7/13/06 04:59 PM, Turandot wrote:

You ignore most of the things I say. Same as all Israel supporters.

Now, dearie, that's what I like to call a blanket statement.

All of them ignore that the EU, UN, and other countries condemn what they're doing.

The UN has issued more anti-Israel resolutions and called more emergency sessions about Israel than about China, Sudan etc. The EU cut funding to Hamas. Wow...

All of you ignore the links to stories of schoolchildren shot my your soldiers, all of you ignore everything else as well.

You ignore the fact that missiles get launched at cities, that terrorists blow up CIVILLIANS IN PIZZERIAS, MALLS, MUSEUMS, BUSES and so forth.

You just repeat "We have a right to attack people who harbour terrorists".

Never said that. But Lebanon is supporting Hezbollah, giving safe haven. Just like Afghanistan...

No, you have a right to attack terrorists.

That we do. And we do.

You blew up their airport for no reason. You blew up a military airfield of the Government, for no reason.

Oh? No reason? Sure...you know best.

I wish your Government could be targeted for 'liquidation' as your amazing spokesmen like to say their murder of others.

Liquidating terrorist leaders is a good policy. Liquidating Osama would be good, but by your logic, that'd be "bad."

Turandot-

You ignore statistics and history.

The UN partition plan of '48 was rejected by the Arabs. Israel begrudgingly accepted.

Source for info below: http://www.ict.org.il/

Breakdown of Fatalities: 27 September 2000 through 1 January 2005:

Palestinians 3179 Israelis 1010

But this proves nothing. Why?

"The number of Palestinians killed by actions of their own side – including suicide bombers, “work accidents”, collaborators, and people killed in intra-Palestinian fighting – has increased strongly over time. So far, over 200 Palestinians have died in this way; they represent more than twelve percent of the total Palestinians killed"

"Israeli fatalities do not show such a high regularity in their age or gender distribution. Population segments like women or older people would not normally be specifically targeted for their military importance; thus their higher relative prevalence among Israeli fatalities is an indication of the degree to which these deaths were caused by random attacks on a civilian population."

"In the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the distinction between Palestinian “civilians” and members of the plethora of official Palestinian Authority security forces is even harder to make, since many Palestinian policemen (and members of the other P.A. uniformed forces) combine their official service with membership in one or more unofficial groups such as Hamas or the various arms of Fatah. When Palestinians in this situation have killed Israeli noncombatants, they have generally done so in their “civilian” capacity."

Ah, and: "Over 54 percent of the Palestinians killed were actively involved in fighting – and this does not include stone-throwers or “unknowns”. And Palestinians are directly responsible for the deaths of at least 253 of their own number – more than one out of every eight Palestinians killed."

This too: "On the Israeli side, 80 percent of those killed have been noncombatants. While Israelis account for about 27 percent of the total “Intifada” fatalities, they represent over 43 percent of the noncombatant victims."

At 7/13/06 05:18 PM, GSgt_Liberal wrote: Turandot-

You ignore statistics and history.

Because your statistics are always bias and because hah, you ignore every link I post then make up lies about them.

Get out of the thread, you are the weakest link.

I wrote to my local MP today as well as an e-mail to a few groups collecting signitures for petitions against Israel.

I'm also looking at trying to join one of the groups that protests against Israel, usually in London. Not sure which one to join, or if I really want to get that far this soon. But the news is grim and sad.

I'll write something to TB tomorrow and post it.

At 7/13/06 05:51 PM, Turandot wrote: I wrote to my local MP today as well as an e-mail to a few groups collecting signitures for petitions against Israel.

MP?

But thats besides the point.

Isreal has all the right to defend themselves, and I believe in that.

But the way thier following through on it, is wrong.

At 7/13/06 06:05 PM, Fenrus1989 wrote: MP?

What are you, an idiot? MP means "Mews paper".
Fool!

At 7/13/06 06:05 PM, Fenrus1989 wrote:

At 7/13/06 05:51 PM, Turandot wrote: I wrote to my local MP today as well as an e-mail to a few groups collecting signitures for petitions against Israel.

MP?

But thats besides the point.

Isreal has all the right to defend themselves, and I believe in that.

But the way thier following through on it, is wrong.

I agree with you. They have a right to defend themselves. In my view the best way of defending yourself against militants rather than an army is to engage with them or if needed make tactical strikes. Israel has done more than this, which I believe is wrong.

MP = Member of Parliament.

At 7/13/06 06:08 PM, Turandot wrote: I agree with you. They have a right to defend themselves. In my view the best way of defending yourself against militants rather than an army is to engage with them or if needed make tactical strikes. Israel has done more than this, which I believe is wrong."

"Israel also announced a naval blockade of Lebanon. Hezbollah responded by firing rockets into the northern Israeli towns of Safed, Nahariya, Kiryat Shmona, and Karmiel which have resulted in at least two casulties and over 90 wounded civilians." This is from Wikipedia.

At least 50 civilians were killed when Israel bombed bridges and highways in Lebanon. Now, targeting a bridge makes sense. It blocks potentially dangerous militants from getting any closer to the border. Obviously it's very unfortunate that many civilians were killed, but this was no doubt a tactical strike. Now, Hezbollah militants operate by randomly firing rockets into towns. Who knows where it will hit... maybe a house, or maybe a school. And the worst part about it is the Lebanon Gov't won't do anything about it:

"On July 13th Israel's minister of defence, Amir Peretz, said that the Lebanonese government should take responsibility for the area and it should be the only one allowed to have armed forces in south Lebanon. Later that evening, the Lebanon government refused."

I mean come on!! If they're not going to anything about it, then they can't complain! Israel is defending itself from a terrorist group that has a gun on its flag! I believe Israel has an undeniable right to defend itself from Hezbollah, a terrorist organization, even if it involves stepping on their turf and entering the homes of Hezbollah militants and their families.

At 7/13/06 01:37 PM, JohnnyWang wrote:

At 7/13/06 01:16 PM, SlipperyMooseCakes wrote: U.S. will always be pro Israel though. We're Christians and that is the holy land.

I honestly think this is a holy war. It goes all the way back thousands of years.

The Muslims, The Jews, And The Christians.

All fighting constantly. Bent on envtual World Destruction from what started out on a dissagreement of belief.

It's not about religion. It's about land. The Palestinians lived there. They got fucked by the brits, and pushed out. They want their land back.

Because Israel for long were extremely stubborn, extremism emerged, extremism that wanted to destroy all of Israel. Before 1947, jews and arabs in the area got along allright.

The Jews and the Arabs have never gotten along so well.

Now it's over land, but the Palastine leader said he see's no purpose for the Israelis to exsist and should be whiped out.

If you're fighting just land, that doesn't mean you think the other person(s) should not exist.

They hate each other.

Jews have been hated for years. Muslims have always disliked them. Then the Christians came along. Jews hated Christians. Pagans hated Jews. Pagans hated Christians. Pagans hated any other relgious culture.

EVERYONE DISLIKED EACH OTHER WHETHER THEY SAID THEY WANTED PEACE OR NOT THEY STILL DESPISED THE OTHER RELIGION.

Now, Pagans are pretty much other of the picture. The Christians and the Jews have befriended each other. Christians (The U.S. and England) have now begun a war on Muslim nations (wether it was for terrorism, blood, or religion) we're batteling their nations.

Now Israel (Whish most muslim nations HATE and want whiped out) is now starting to bomb lebanon and basically pissing off all other nations.

So the picture is:

Jews + Christians = Bombing Muslim nations (for whatever reason)

Muslims = Fighting back and hating us.

I'm saying it all comes down to religion. It started that way thousands of years ago. And when it all comes down, in their eyes, they could care less if Christians and Jews were whiped out. Infact, they'd prob like it.

And they prob think we think the same way about them.

Sorry this is so poorly put together. I was eating dinner and on aim while typing this in between and during.

But yeah, that's my opinion.

Just to clear something up the crusades were started by the muslims.They belived that anyone who wasnt a muslim deserved to die so they began attacking ,killing ,and raping peacefull christion societys.So the pope sent troops to the middle east not to attack muslims but to defend the holyland.Crusades were cristions defending themselfs.

At 7/13/06 07:22 PM, StoneColdSteve wrote: Just to clear something up the crusades were started by the muslims.They belived that anyone who wasnt a muslim deserved to die so they began attacking ,killing ,and raping peacefull christion societys.So the pope sent troops to the middle east not to attack muslims but to defend the holyland.Crusades were cristions defending themselfs.

Actually the pope called for the destruction of the "saracens" an insult to the Muslims holding Jerusalem.The crusading Christians killed thousands of Christians,Jews,and Muslims while on their way to Jerusalem.

Actualy thats just a PC (policily correct) mith. Muslims groups make things up like that to make muslims look like the good guy.

At 7/13/06 07:35 PM, StoneColdSteve wrote: Actualy thats just a PC (policily correct) mith. Muslims groups make things up like that to make muslims look like the good guy.

That's ignorence that is staggering at this point in time.

If you have nothing important to contribute to this topic then please step away and keep your thoughts to yourself and shut the hell up.

At 7/13/06 07:37 PM, SirXVII wrote:

At 7/13/06 07:35 PM, StoneColdSteve wrote: Actualy thats just a PC (policily correct) mith. Muslims groups make things up like that to make muslims look like the good guy.

That's ignorence that is staggering at this point in time.

If you have nothing important to contribute to this topic then please step away and keep your thoughts to yourself and shut the hell up.

O sorry i didnt relize pointing out facts was ignorence that for setting me straight =)

At 7/13/06 07:39 PM, StoneColdSteve wrote:
O sorry i didnt relize pointing out facts was ignorence that for setting me straight =)

What you are doing is setting a generalization and that is what they call ignorence. That was a prejudice comment.

I bet you never even met a Muslim.

Acualy im frends with quit a few muslims and there very good people. Im just very good at history and i believe in the truth.Just cus you dont know what your talking about doesent mean you should go around calling people racist.

At 7/13/06 07:48 PM, StoneColdSteve wrote: Acualy im frends with quit a few muslims and there very good people. Im just very good at history and i believe in the truth.Just cus you dont know what your talking about doesent mean you should go around calling people racist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

"they were Roman Catholic Holy Wars to recapture Jerusalem and the Holy Land from the Muslims"