Listen, something urgent came up and I need to leave for now. But I will come back and reply to your reply.

I enjoy discussing this matter with you.

Thanks.

The old idealistic and rules based warfare is now gone. It has morphed and melded into all sorts of other messy dynamics. You cant seperate the political, cultural, historical, issues fromt the honorable blood thats shed on the battlefield. Now, a military professional has to understand all these other dimensions of war, and how his or her particular piece of the action fits into the totality of the effort.

Today, if the United States takes some kind of military action, its efforts shoot out beyond the military dimension. If the United States conducts a military operation to root out insurgents in some village, what we do to the tribe members who live in the village could alienate them. But if we choose another way to root out the insurgents, we might build confidence in the tribe and bring them over to our side. (example ensues)
-Gen. Tony Zinni (Ret.), former CENTCOM commander

Substitute Israel for the United States and you have my beef. The tactics Israel is using are old and tired. They dont work. You cannot bomb an ideology.

At 7/15/06 08:33 AM, GSgt_Liberal wrote: Giving up Gaza...oh, yeah, that's self righteous. If it hadn't been given back, we'd be better off today.

I dont ever remember Israel giving many concessions to Palestinians. Or vice versa. So yes, self righteous.

Hezbollah is SUPPORTED and HARBORED by the Lebanese government. Listen to the speeches made at the Security Council yesterday.

Again, let me see this hard proof. I dont watch fuckin C-Span all day on the off hope I can get some info I can share to everyone. I have other things to do.

We did the SAME THING TO AFGHANISTAN! THINK ABOUT IT!

No we didnt. We asked them to hand over the terrorists. They refused. We then talked to the world community. They helped. We went in. Perfect UN action against a country.

There are still even multinational forces in Afghanistan if you want to "think about it."

We tried. But it was a covert op that failed (Operation Eagle Claw/Evening Light).

Yes, exactly. We DIDNT invade them, just like the invasion of Lebanon on trumped up terrorism charges is a BAD MOVE. It exacerbates already thin alliances in the region and makes enemies.

Send strike forces in for all I care. Dont bomb airports and roads and whatever that hurt everyone when you are trying to attack an amorophous force that is likely numbering in the low thousands at best.

And the majority of the emergency General Assembly sessions have been called to condemn israel....even when there's China abusing human rights and Arab states supporting terror.

You cant pass the buck. Just because other people may possibly be doing worse things is a terrible justification for why Israel deserves such prefential treatment by the USA. What makes Israel worth all those vetoes?

At 7/15/06 12:40 PM, Cahenn wrote: Yep, until some mod comes by and suddenly you're not so assertive anymore. The fact you compare the lives of people to the risk of a mod not liking you is absurd.

This is very untrue and it is a pity you think that way. I don't think Sarai likes me for a long time, we actually had a long debate over AIM in which she called me brainwahsed, nazi and all kinds of things. Besides, I have debated a lt of mods over the months of me lurking in the politics forum. I think it isn't fair of you to say these things while you don't actually know me. Also, I didn't really understand the thing with the people lives...

You justified the ban which was clearly unjust...

Read what I said again, I wasn't justifying the ban, I was telling you to be careful from posting about you bans in the forums, because that might get you banned.

Way to show it...

Excuse me for trying to warn you.

You need to stand up to people who try to bully you and to stand up to what you believe in.

This is what I am doing, read what I wrote to Sarai.

At 7/15/06 12:40 PM, Cahenn wrote: We're not killers!

Isreal targets refugee convoy, 17 civilians dead including children

"A number of families were fleeing their village of Marwahin on the Israeli border when their convoy was struck by missiles on the coastal road to Tyre, a UN spokesman told the BBC. "

Isreal murder civilians. You guys drone on and on and on, we don't do it, we don't do it. Every hour now stories come in showing it being done. Every hour the civilian, not the militant death toll rises.

It is Nazi like. It is blood-thirsty and it is a disproportionate military response that has killed far more civilians in a few days than Isreal has lost in the year probably.

You may not be a murderer Akula, but not protesting against your Government's actions is kinda complicit. I'm not even English but I was writing and protesting about the war in Iraq, I also help some PRC based colleagues to get around our firewall in China for example because I disagree with that.

I see you all judging other countries, often China in this forum and then you're so upset when stories about Isreal start. How many more civilians are going to die before you change your mind and do something about it? How many civilians = a militant?

Huh? Isreal is MURDERING civilians in COLD BLOOD with weapons dropped from invisible forces, shells fired from the sea or artillery pounding the earth. Maybe instead of telling me I should visit Isreal, maybe that kind of sustained violence from modern military should visit you, wherever you are. Suicide bombings are horrible, but at least you're unlikely to die in your own home. In addition your 'peace wall' apparently has stopped most of those attacks.

So now what? You've built a wall cutting off familes, destroying lives and jobs and you're still not happy. Seriously, screw Isreal, it's bitten off more than it can chew if it continues murdering people.

Also before I go I would like to say something else.

Perhaps anyone heard the 72 hour ultimatum Israel supposedly gave to Lebanon?

That article was a provocation by Lebanese media, Israel never gave out any ultimatum.

At 7/15/06 01:00 PM, Turandot wrote: You may not be a murderer Akula (the rest of the foolishness).

You MAY not be a murderer? The very fact that you use the word may in this sentance is disturbing. What makes you even think that he might be a murderer? DId he confess to you of murdering someone, as tend to do to pass their free time, or did you just guess? Or maybe... Are you by any chance Serlock Holmes?

"Editorial in Lebanon's Daily Star

Our fledgling independence is under fire. Only a little over a year since we started making our own decisions and trying to forge a sense of national unity, we have been hit with a crisis of unexpected proportions...

Yet even now, as Israel is laying waste to our country with guns and missiles paid for with US tax dollars, and as American-made bombs are raining down on our cities, we are still clinging to the same values and ideals that the Bush administration has promoted: We want life, liberty and happiness; we want democracy, sovereignty, freedom and independence.

No-one is calling for the return of Syrian occupation, even though one could argue that Syria's presence served as a deterrent to this kind of Israeli onslaught. No-one is asking whether the US government only asked the Syrians to step out only so that the Israelis could step in to replace them. We are holding out hope that the Americans will be faithful to the values that they have championed and protect us from further harm... "

Couldn't have said it better myself.

At 7/15/06 01:06 PM, Lidov wrote:

At 7/15/06 01:00 PM, Turandot wrote: You may not be a murderer Akula (the rest of the foolishness).

You MAY not be a murderer? The very fact that you use the word may in this sentance is disturbing. What makes you even think that he might be a murderer? DId he confess to you of murdering someone, as tend to do to pass their free time, or did you just guess? Or maybe... Are you by any chance Serlock Holmes?

Or MAYBE english grammer says that the sentence "You may not be" = You aren't, but others are.

Akula MAY not be a murderer, but he MAY be complicit in it. So what?

Nice way to ignore the WHOLE article on 17 civilians being murdered and instead concentrate on grammar... and I won't say the word that normally follows 'grammar' on these forums, incase I offend you further *sigh*.

hey turandot we should chat sometime :-)

At 7/15/06 01:18 PM, gooze_bump wrote: hey turandot we should chat sometime :-)

Sure, I use MSN or AIM, mostly MSN. Feel free to add me. Just going to lunch and a few e-mail writings to politicians.

At 7/15/06 01:00 PM, Turandot wrote: Isreal targets refugee convoy, 17 civilians dead including children

I want a second source of that, one that details the the time of the attack, the aircraft who performed it, the target of the attack and etc. I find it farfetched that Israel would use a 20 million dollar missle on a civilian convoy just like that... even if Israel IS racist like you foolishly claim, that's still absurd.

Isreal murder civilians. You guys drone on and on and on, we don't do it, we don't do it.

So you're calling all Israelis killers, that's it? IF that's not racist I don't know what is...

It is Nazi like.

Yep, very racist, uninformed and foolish, nontheless racist.

You may not be a murderer Akula

Oh really? I'm sure he is dancing in joy right now because you're telling him he is an ok person by your twisted standards.

I'm not even English but I was writing and protesting about the war in Iraq,

Wow, you're such a badass...

I also help some PRC based colleagues to get around our firewall in China for example because I disagree with that.

You believe you have the right to tell people how to live, I disapprove of the chinese firewall as well, but you wouldn't see me taking illegal action just like that.

I see you all judging other countries, often China in this forum

Yep, this has nothing to do with the fact you're from china yourself... go ahead...

and then you're so upset when stories about Isreal start.

Yep

How many more civilians are going to die before you change your mind and do something about it? How many civilians = a militant?

A militant = A civilian = A person. They're all people and equally deserve to live, that has nothing to do with Israel's right to self defend, and your biased so called 'evidence'...

Huh? Isreal is MURDERING civilians in COLD BLOOD

Not true... you keep on rambling on and on... you have a motive to be against Israel, there is no way we'll be able to know what the motive is, but it's obvious it is out there...

with weapons dropped from invisible forces,

It's called airplanes... and we drop flyers about our intent to blow something up before we do so no civilians get hurt...

shells fired from the sea or artillery pounding the earth. Maybe instead of telling me I should visit Isreal, maybe that kind of sustained violence from modern military should visit you, wherever you are.

That sort of military force is visiting us daily, this war STARTED because Israel was shelled, you seem to conviniently forget that though, or is it not so.

Suicide bombings are horrible, but at least you're unlikely to die in your own home. In addition your 'peace wall' apparently has stopped most of those attacks.

It has stopped most of those attacks, they use rockets now...

So now what? You've built a wall cutting off familes, destroying lives and jobs and you're still not happy.

It effectively dropped suicide bombing rate (and car theft for that manner), and all families harmed have been compensated. I've protested myself against the original plan, but the current fence is pretty fare.

Seriously, screw Isreal, it's bitten off more than it can chew if it continues murdering people.

You're so sure you got all the answers, don't you? What have you done to investigate the situation other than 3rd party sources?

At 7/15/06 01:10 PM, Turandot wrote: Or MAYBE english grammer says that the sentence "You may not be" = You aren't, but others are.

Akula MAY not be a murderer, but he MAY be complicit in it. So what?

The way I see it, or maybe I am wrong, the meaning of he may be... is that he might be or might not be, but whatever. You are ignoring my point, even if you would have written "you aren't a murderer" that means that had a reason to think that he is a murderer, a reason which was proven false, or something of that nature.

Nice way to ignore the WHOLE article on 17 civilians being murdered and instead concentrate on grammar... and I won't say the word that normally follows 'grammar' on these forums, incase I offend you further *sigh*.

This is not the way I ignore your articles or posts, I simply don't read what you say because I know it is hopeless changing your brainwahsed, dense mind anyway. Why torturing me reading a foolish opinion while I can do something better, like looking at the floor?

At 7/15/06 01:30 PM, Lidov wrote: Why torturing me reading a foolish opinion while I can do something better, like looking at the floor?

Or watching grass grow...

At 7/15/06 01:00 PM, Turandot wrote: Isreal targets refugee convoy, 17 civilians dead including children

Here is the thing, that article also says nothing about Israel targetting that convoy...

At 7/15/06 01:29 PM, Cahenn wrote:

At 7/15/06 01:00 PM, Turandot wrote: Isreal targets refugee convoy, 17 civilians dead including children

I want a second source of that, one that details the the time of the attack, the aircraft who performed it, the target of the attack and etc. I find it farfetched that Israel would use a 20 million dollar missle on a civilian convoy just like that... even if Israel IS racist like you foolishly claim, that's still absurd.

Oh, you find it 'far-fetched' and the UN isn't a good enough source for you. Typical Israel response. It's on CNN and on the BBC as well as being quoted from the UN.

Isreal murder civilians. You guys drone on and on and on, we don't do it, we don't do it.

So you're calling all Israelis killers, that's it? IF that's not racist I don't know what is...

Your Government orders its military to perform strikes on targets in a number of places in different countries. Some are civilian targets. That is murder and against International Law and morality. If you support it in all it's 'glory', then yes, I condemn you as just as bad as your mudering Government. It's hardly racist, I suggest you go look up the term in a dictionary.

rac·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.
The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Now how that fits me calling your Government and by extension some people in Isreal muderers... well, you fit it for me okay dear. But we already know you're one of these people who deny that Isreal could do any wrong "We leaflet anywhere we bomb" Bullshit. You bombed roads, what, did you leaflet those first? Pull the other one.

I also help some PRC based colleagues to get around our firewall in China for example because I disagree with that.

You believe you have the right to tell people how to live, I disapprove of the chinese firewall as well, but you wouldn't see me taking illegal action just like that.

Oh, and you're all about "Standing up to being bullied" and you're telling me helping people access the BBC in China is 'illegal'. ha ha ha.

I see you all judging other countries, often China in this forum

Yep, this has nothing to do with the fact you're from china yourself... go ahead...

and then you're so upset when stories about Isreal start.

Yep

Exactly. You are not unbias, infact I would go far as to say that you are the MOST bias person on here. For reasons of statehood or whatever. At least I can say what I say based on being a fresh slate four years ago. Your country's actions in the Middle East as told by the BBC, Economist and other online and offline sources have made me like this. You on the other hand... Just born bias heya.

That sort of military force is visiting us daily, this war STARTED because Israel was shelled, you seem to conviniently forget that though, or is it not so.

Oh, yeah, I forgot those evil arab terrorists have tanks and planes and boats and American missiles. Silly me, how could I have forgot. ha ha

It effectively dropped suicide bombing rate (and car theft for that manner), and all families harmed have been compensated. I've protested myself against the original plan, but the current fence is pretty fare.

It's 'fare'? Have you seen the MAP of where it goes? Have you read anything about the suffering it causes people? Compensated!??! Per the last Economist Middle East Special the only compensation that most Arabs get is bullets from the watchtowers or checkpoints.

Seriously, screw Isreal, it's bitten off more than it can chew if it continues murdering people.

You're so sure you got all the answers, don't you? What have you done to investigate the situation other than 3rd party sources?

3rd party sources quote 1st hand sources, for example interviews on the ground with Israeli or other people. Oh forgive me that I'm not sitting like you with the possibility of a rocket landing on my head. Here we go with the whole 'victim' thing again. Oh and forgive me for reading books and articles written by former UN members or other writers. I'm sorry, it's obviously not up to your standard of bias Isreali.

At 7/15/06 01:45 PM, Cahenn wrote:

At 7/15/06 01:30 PM, Lidov wrote: Why torturing me reading a foolish opinion while I can do something better, like looking at the floor?

Or watching grass grow...

Hey, or posting pointless comments off-topic that are going to get you banned again. If you don't care, don't post. Bye??? Go find another Isreal thread to post your bias in.

At 7/15/06 01:46 PM, Cahenn wrote:

At 7/15/06 01:00 PM, Turandot wrote: Isreal targets refugee convoy, 17 civilians dead including children

Here is the thing, that article also says nothing about Israel targetting that convoy...

Quoted straight from the article:

"Israel kills Lebanese civilians"

"An Israeli air raid has killed at least 17 Lebanese civilians who were fleeing southern border areas.
Women and children were among those killed when the convoy was hit. "Bodies litter the road," an eyewitness said"

Oh so the pilot didn't see the cars on the road? Oh forgive me Caheen but your oh so great military has shown us the bomb-site views in TV footage already, they're very clear and since cars don't appear very quickly, I'm sure they were then when someone pressed a button. And that's the version that assumes it wasn't DELIBERATE targetting, just careless targetting.

So either way you look at it... murder or manslaughter.

Deny it all you want, you're sound like John Irving, the only difference being just playing a different but equally broken record.

At 7/15/06 01:50 PM, Turandot wrote: Oh, you find it 'far-fetched' and the UN isn't a good enough source for you. Typical Israel response. It's on CNN and on the BBC as well as being quoted from the UN.

I agree with you to an extent, not as far as you go, that Israel is chewing off more than it can handle.

But you are making no friends or looking intelligent by calling Israeli actions Nazi like or generalizing them. And I myself am a giant asshole usually when I post and even I am cringing at many of the things you are saying.

At 7/15/06 01:50 PM, Turandot wrote: Oh, you find it 'far-fetched' and the UN isn't a good enough source for you. Typical Israel response. It's on CNN and on the BBC as well as being quoted from the UN.

Read my second comment regarding the issue, also, get me a link to this story from the UN itself...

Your Government orders its military to perform strikes on targets in a number of places in different countries.

So far so good.

Some are civilian targets.

No, the one thing you can claim is that we don't take the lives of civilians enough into consideration when we target terrorists. I agree with that most of the time, but the distance between that and targetting civilians is HUGE.

It's hardly racist, I suggest you go look up the term in a dictionary.

You called all Israelis nazi like, not just the acts the government performs.

Now how that fits me calling your Government and by extension some people in Isreal muderers...

Oh, no you didn't, you called Israelis as a whole group Nazi and a lot of other names.

well, you fit it for me okay dear. But we already know you're one of these people who deny that Isreal could do any wrong "We leaflet anywhere we bomb" Bullshit. You bombed roads, what, did you leaflet those first? Pull the other one.

We bombed roads when they were empty. I protested AGAINST my government plenty of times to be honest. I don't like everything my government does but I think your point of view is twisted, you think all Israel's actions are in attempt to destroy civilians, and ruin lives. Most (if not all Israelis) do not want to kill...

Oh, and you're all about "Standing up to being bullied" and you're telling me helping people access the BBC in China is 'illegal'. ha ha ha.

I'm standing up legally.

Exactly. You are not unbias, infact I would go far as to say that you are the MOST bias person on here.

I'm not arguing about inner Israeli issues because I'm biased about them. I noted the fact you said that about china after calling me biased about Israel several times.

For reasons of statehood or whatever. At least I can say what I say based on being a fresh slate four years ago.

So, what are your offline sources you keep speaking off? Have you ever in your life read any source other than the media?

Oh, yeah, I forgot those evil arab terrorists have tanks and planes and boats and American missiles. Silly me, how could I have forgot. ha ha

You might be surprised but Iranian missles are not that much behind... and old missles kill just as much as new missles, only they're less accurate so they kill leess army and more civilians.

It's 'fare'?

fair, I'm tired, shoot me.

Have you seen the MAP of where it goes? Have you read anything about the suffering it causes people?

I've seen the map, and I even protested against the original plan once or twice. I think the current fence is fair.

3rd party sources quote 1st hand sources,

yes, but not accurately and they're not as reliable, haven't you ever read about and event you know first person from the media?

for example interviews on the ground with Israeli or other people.

You can't really get the whole picture that way. If you care so strongly about the manner, how about you go ahead and investigate it further through more reliable third second and first party sources and researches.

Oh forgive me that I'm not sitting like you with the possibility of a rocket landing on my head. Here we go with the whole 'victim' thing again.

So I'm not a victim of circumstance because there is a possibility of having a rocket landing on my head?

Oh and forgive me for reading books and articles written by former UN members or other writers. I'm sorry, it's obviously not up to your standard of bias Isreali.

Name these books and articles please.

At 7/15/06 01:55 PM, Turandot wrote: "Israel kills Lebanese civilians"

Kill and target are two different things, don't act like you don't understand that.

Oh so the pilot didn't see the cars on the road?

From 300 miles away? likely.

Oh forgive me Caheen but your oh so great military has shown us the bomb-site views in TV footage already,

link?

they're very clear and since cars don't appear very quickly, I'm sure they were then when someone pressed a button. And that's the version that assumes it wasn't DELIBERATE targetting, just careless targetting.

If the army had solid information about terrorist weaponry that will later on be used to target Israel it was hardly careless.

So either way you look at it... murder or manslaughter.

It might've been needless killing, but it was surely not murder.

Deny it all you want,

Talk about denial... How about you tell us who are your first person sources?

At 7/15/06 01:59 PM, FAB0L0US wrote:

At 7/15/06 01:50 PM, Turandot wrote: Oh, you find it 'far-fetched' and the UN isn't a good enough source for you. Typical Israel response. It's on CNN and on the BBC as well as being quoted from the UN.

I agree with you to an extent, not as far as you go, that Israel is chewing off more than it can handle.

But you are making no friends or looking intelligent by calling Israeli actions Nazi like or generalizing them. And I myself am a giant asshole usually when I post and even I am cringing at many of the things you are saying.

Sorry about that. I started this thread with key links to articles that were not general. One of the first responses from one of the posters here was "because she was placing a bomb". Showing that he hadn't even read the article. This is typical of the whole pro-Isreal bunch on this forum, they demand you read their articles and believe their statistics, but not once in this thread have they ever replied to the linked articles posted in the first place.

I don't care if I look stupid or not, lots of people are more intelligent than me, but at least I can have a passion about something that's somewhat outside my life. Not many people care enough to do more than care about their own lives.

You may disagree with me saying these actions are 'Nazi' like. In all fairness the Nazi's killed over 6 million Jews and destroyed countries in a way that has never been seen before. Their brutal methods of ethnic cleansing was one of the three great atrocities in the 20th Century.

From a repressed people a nation was eventually created. This nation Isreal was attacked from the start by it's neighbours. These attacks were in no way justified and resulted in the murder of many Israeli civilians and others. Moving forward into the present days, these murders have continued at a slower pace through rocket attacks and suicide bombings, all of which are illegal, immoral and criminal, not to mention brutal and indiscriminate of military or civilian life.

From about 1995 onwards though Isreal has started to change the rules of the game. Increasing it's military response for every rocket that falls on it and in some cases stopping peace from growing where it has the chance to. In the last five years or so, things have got much worse. The 'Peace Wall', regular civilian deaths and much more up to this war being fought in Lebanon.

This war is killing civilians far faster than anything that has happened for many years. It is being caused by Isreal's forces and weapons. The Government blames all deaths on either Hamas or Hezbollah, but this is escaping from the fact that the simple choice of whether to bomb roads, powerplants and civilian areas is one that Isreal can make. No one can force it to bomb, it bombs by its own choice.

These bombings which the UN and EU have at times called "Illegal / Disproportionate / Unjust / Against the Geneva Convention" are a form of bullying. The word bullying does not convey the reality on the ground. Hundreds are dying, many thousands more injured. Soverign countries are being invaded and bombed, Governments that just want quiet and peace are being shook up and may fall apart into Civil war.

All the time Israel is denying any reponsibility and saying it's acting in self-defence. I call these Nazi actions to indicate that I believe they are in that catagory of crime. A modern army, equipped with the latest weapons should not be bombing civilians or civilian areas. Ignoring whether this is on purpose or not, it's still a war-crime.

Caheen told Lidov to stand up to me bullying him. I'm saying through my words, actions and this post, we need to stand up to Isreal. Isreal is acting in a way that does discredit to its foundation, to its people and worst of all, just in my view, these actions are nazi like.

You may disagree, but at least I hope you can see that I do know a little about the history of this area and I'm not just this way to be annoying or argumentative. Isreal deserves to exist, everyone deserves to exist. Isreal has been persecuted for a long time and has lost many lives to terror and blood-shed by terrorists, militants etc. It's not right though that they should recently turn the game around and become the state-terrorist themselves. Hamas can never destroy Isreal, but Isreal can destroy Lebanon and appears to be doing it, is that fair? Do the civilians there deserve not to have power, airports, lighthouses, ports etc?

I feel they don't deserve what they're getting and by trying to shift the blame to an organization that's a milita, Isreal doesn't convince me and the blood stays firmly on its hand.

At 7/15/06 02:19 PM, Turandot wrote: This is typical of the whole pro-Isreal bunch on this forum,

Your replies are becomming typical too.

From about 1995 onwards

Actually, the Oslo comitee was in 1995, we evacuated Palastinian cities and had plenty of peace talks. You 'may' mean 1996 where the right wing came into control, in that year we severely attacked terrorist uprising targets because of the first bus bombing.

though Isreal has started to change the rules of the game. Increasing it's military response for every rocket that falls on it and in some cases stopping peace from growing where it has the chance to.

In the year 2000, Ehud Barak, PM then offered the Palastinains half of Jerusalem, the entire west bank and the gaza strip, they said no... that still makes me ponder.

In the last five years or so, things have got much worse. The 'Peace Wall', regular civilian deaths and much more up to this war being fought in Lebanon.

Are you sure? Take a look at last year, when Ariel Sharon was still PM, we evacuated Gaza and had the lowest death rate, the fence was built, it's not a wall, it's actually a fence and there are plenty of passages.

This war is killing civilians far faster than anything that has happened for many years.

Not true, the death toll from car crashes is still higher (for that manner), I don't like deaths but I have not seem you name any other option than war regarding the kidnapped soldiers.

It is being caused by Isreal's forces and weapons. The Government blames all deaths on either Hamas or Hezbollah,

All Israeli deaths since 2000 are probably their fault... This was is something we'd all like to avoid. What choice do we have regarding the kidnapped soldiers.

No one can force it to bomb, it bombs by its own choice.

What do you suggest we do when they bomb us and kidnap troops huh?

Soverign countries are being invaded and bombed, Governments that just want quiet and peace are being shook up and may fall apart into Civil war.

We just want quiet too, seriously, all Israeli civilians just want to keep caring about their own business. We have no other way but to go to war.

I call these Nazi actions to indicate that I believe they are in that catagory of crime.

That's a twisted belief.

A modern army, equipped with the latest weapons should not be bombing civilians or civilian areas. Ignoring whether this is on purpose or not, it's still a war-crime.

We only bomb areas after we inform the civilians we intend to do so, and these areas are Hizbullah control and to harm the Hizbullah fores.

Caheen told Lidov to stand up to me bullying him. I'm saying through my words, actions and this post, we need to stand up to Isreal.

So you admit you were intimidating him the way you are attempting to do to Israeli officials?

Isreal is acting in a way that does discredit to its foundation, to its people and worst of all, just in my view, these actions are nazi like.

I don't agree with every action Israel takes but there is a long road between disagreement with the actions Israel takes and accusing Israel of targetting civilians and being nazi like.

You may disagree, but at least I hope you can see that I do know a little about the history of this area and I'm not just this way to be annoying or argumentative.

The fact you know some stuff about the area does not make you any less argumentive, you're not annoying, just insulting sometimes.

Isreal deserves to exist, everyone deserves to exist. Isreal has been persecuted for a long time and has lost many lives to terror and blood-shed by terrorists, militants etc. It's not right though that they should recently turn the game around

Israel is not trying to 'turn the game around'. I just can't see anythig else we can do when we get shot at by Hizbullah, if Lebanon took care of them themselves it would've made things a lot easier

The problem is your posts are littered with incorrect statements. You don't leaflet everywhere you bomb, you don't only bomb Hezbollah areas. That's just for a start. I don't really want to debate it with you. You can't see the trees for the forest.

After reading Turnadot's links I think Israel is a bigger threat to international peace than al-Qaeda.

At 7/15/06 03:10 PM, Turandot wrote: The problem is your posts are littered with incorrect statements.

Haha, for every inaccurate statement I may innocently have stated, you have 10 ones you've said to match your goal.

You don't leaflet everywhere you bomb, you don't only bomb Hezbollah areas.

Hezbullah areas are everywhere... read what the lebanonese PM said, they have zero control.

That's just for a start. I don't really want to debate it with you. You can't see the trees for the forest.

You're trying to avoid debating with me, I'm trying to do the same but frankly, your posts are a little bit blood boiling. If you could at least not blame all Israelis of stuff, and blame the choices the Israeli government makes. Try to not call us inhumane because we're very much humane like everyone else, try to understand that, please.

At 7/15/06 09:23 AM, Turandot wrote:

I banned you for calling me a 'racist slime' which I take as a personal insult. Saying Isreal kills civilians on purpose is not insulting you personally.

It's not factually accurate. That's the problem. You may not be a racist, but you're ignoring historical and statistical fact.

www.atimes.com/atime..e_East/HG15Ak02.html

The two Israel Soldiers were on the Lebandon side. Therefore th e Lebanonese had full right to kindap them as Prisoners of War. IT was only defending itself, the same reason Israel is using and bush's excuse for Israels actions. Also, the rumor mill is that Syria and IRan had soemthing to do with it. First fom Hezbollah, to Iran ad Syria. Where is the evidence of it? Sort of like WMD in IRaq statement with no evidence. Hmm its jsut funny how its the same coutnries on PNACS hits list no? You know what going to happen. they are going to bomb tehran and damacus, start an all out awar, America of course is going to support Israel 100% and our troops situated in Iraq right now are in the middle of it. All hail America, Israels bitch.

1. There is no "Lebanonese." They're "Lebanese." And, by the way, the LEBANESE hate the Iranians and Syrians. The Iranians and Syrians support Hizbullah. The Lebanese, in general, tend to dislike Hizbullah.
2. There is a slim to nil chance that the tank was on the lebanese side.

At 7/15/06 04:27 PM, gooze_bump wrote: The two Israel Soldiers were on the Lebandon side.

No they were not, they were patrolling the border from the Israeli side...

Therefore th e Lebanonese had full right to kindap them as Prisoners of War.

If they were violating the border, there might have been some justification to holding them as prisoners since the two countries don't have a peace treaty. They haven't violated any border.

Also, the rumor mill is that Syria and IRan had soemthing to do with it. First fom Hezbollah, to Iran ad Syria. Where is the evidence of it?

The missle shot at the Israeli battleship yesterday was made by Iran, Iran and the Hizbullah both confirmed that.

NOAM CHOMSKY:
Gaza, itself, the latest phase, began on June 24. It was when Israel abducted two Gaza civilians, a doctor and his brother. We don't know their names. You don't know the names of victims. They were taken to Israel, presumably, and nobody knows their fate. The next day, something happened, which we do know about, a lot. Militants in Gaza, probably Islamic Jihad, abducted an Israeli soldier across the border. That's Corporal Gilad Shalit. And that's well known; first abduction is not. Then followed the escalation of Israeli attacks on Gaza, which I don't have to repeat. It's reported on adequately.

Source Here

Some further evidence how Israel loves to play the victim.