At 7/15/06 06:49 AM, Cahenn wrote: I'm back from a ban. Turnadot banned me in order to silence me, luckily I know a few more blokes than it seems. I am deeply disappointed in this as this proves once and for all the Turnadot is not interested in discussion but is interested in having her voice heard and noone else's.

she seriously banned you?...for what?

At 7/15/06 06:51 AM, 4aces wrote: she seriously banned you?...for what?

She banned me so I won't be able to reply, I'm quite sure of that. The ban reason was calling a mod racist slime, now that would be a logical argument IF THE REASON I CALLED HER THAT WAS RELATED TO HER BEING A MOD. Would I get a 7 day ban if I called you names? As far as I recall calling people names is not a bannable offense, especially because I had a damn good reason too.

Also, she really is racist slime, she said Israelis are all monsters, that we like killing civilians and much more. That is racist, and very slimey. If she wasn't a mod she would have been banned for good a long time ago, I have no idea how she became a moderator in the first place being the asshole she is and saying this sort of stuff about Israel knowing this little about it.

At 7/15/06 06:55 AM, Cahenn wrote:

At 7/15/06 06:51 AM, 4aces wrote: she seriously banned you?...for what?

She banned me so I won't be able to reply, I'm quite sure of that. The ban reason was calling a mod racist slime, now that would be a logical argument IF THE REASON I CALLED HER THAT WAS RELATED TO HER BEING A MOD. Would I get a 7 day ban if I called you names? As far as I recall calling people names is not a bannable offense, especially because I had a damn good reason too.

Also, she really is racist slime, she said Israelis are all monsters, that we like killing civilians and much more. That is racist, and very slimey. If she wasn't a mod she would have been banned for good a long time ago, I have no idea how she became a moderator in the first place being the asshole she is and saying this sort of stuff about Israel knowing this little about it.

she really said those things?....if so that is a bit racist and hateful.....-i had no idea she was a mod...
turndout- i really don't think you should ban your opposition in a political debate-it's incredibley fishy.......and blatantly unfair...especially when you(if you are a mod...-refrain from such things.. kay kay?) are in a moderator position....
and i really think newgrounds needs to implement anti-cursing and language laws...- the current situation is absolutely ludicrous........

At 7/15/06 07:03 AM, 4aces wrote: she really said those things?....if so that is a bit racist and hateful.....-i had no idea she was a mod...

Look up the old Israel moves into Gaza thread. She said that a couple of times, she said Israelis are Nazi too, a lot of abusive stuff. I didn't know she was a mod either, but she fealt the need to start putting "-Sarai" at the end of her posts so what we'll know that she is a mod, I found that extremely slimey but I didn't really care since I figured that since we're all adults we can still try and have a debate.

turndout- i really don't think you should ban your opposition in a political debate-it's incredibley fishy.......and blatantly unfair...especially when you(if you are a mod...-refrain from such things.. kay kay?) are in a moderator position....

In fact, I think that ironically it just proved my point about her being slimey and racist.

and i really think newgrounds needs to implement anti-cursing and language laws...- the current situation is absolutely ludicrous........

I think there shouldn't be any anti swearing laws in newgrounds, I think we're all adult enough to not excessively swear and not take swearing when done for the sake of it, seriously.

At 7/15/06 06:49 AM, Cahenn wrote: I'm back from a ban. Turnadot banned me in order to silence me, luckily I know a few more blokes than it seems. I am deeply disappointed in this as this proves once and for all the Turnadot is not interested in discussion but is interested in having her voice heard and noone else's.

Accusing a mod of something like that, whether true or false, could be a reason for a ban. Even if she banned you because she didn't want your voice to be heard, or for any unjustified reason to your opinion, contact another mod or Wade, don't whine about it on the forums. Anyway, I would suggest you post all you think now before you get banned again :-(

At 7/14/06 11:19 PM, FAB0L0US wrote:

Both sides are to self righteous to get anything done.

Giving up Gaza...oh, yeah, that's self righteous. If it hadn't been given back, we'd be better off today.

Hezbollah is part of the Lebanon government.

That doesnt mean they are harbored by them and that Lebanon supports their activities.

Hezbollah is SUPPORTED and HARBORED by the Lebanese government. Listen to the speeches made at the Security Council yesterday.

They may look the other way but that is far from sponsoring and condoning their ativities. And if you are going to make a case about going to war and bombing that soverign countries infrastructure to attack a terrorist organization...

We did the SAME THING TO AFGHANISTAN! THINK ABOUT IT!

What would have happened if the USA went to war when our embassy was captured in Tehran in '79?

We tried. But it was a covert op that failed (Operation Eagle Claw/Evening Light).

Eight of the last nine vetoes in the council have been cast by the United States. Of those, seven had to do with the Israel-Palestinian conflict.

And the majority of the emergency General Assembly sessions have been called to condemn israel....even when there's China abusing human rights and Arab states supporting terror.

At 7/15/06 06:55 AM, Cahenn wrote:

At 7/15/06 06:51 AM, 4aces wrote: she seriously banned you?...for what?

She banned me so I won't be able to reply, I'm quite sure of that. The ban reason was calling a mod racist slime,

I banned you for calling me a 'racist slime' which I take as a personal insult. Saying Isreal kills civilians on purpose is not insulting you personally.

I am about as unracist as it comes.

I will be taking this up with the person who cleared your ban.

At 7/15/06 09:23 AM, Turandot wrote:

At 7/15/06 06:55 AM, Cahenn wrote:

At 7/15/06 06:51 AM, 4aces wrote:

I banned you for calling me a 'racist slime' which I take as a personal insult. Saying Isreal kills civilians on purpose is not insulting you personally.

I am about as unracist as it comes.

I will be taking this up with the person who cleared your ban.

so don't you agree there should be language laws here?......that way this place won't be as childish......i mean you yourself refer to cetin forumites(me included..) as idiots...-as a moderator you should be a little above that don't you think??.....

At 7/14/06 03:52 PM, GSgt_Liberal wrote: At least there's now a 100% justified excuse to kill Hezbollah.

And to think, isn't this indicitive of the sort of hatred that Arab groups are supposed to express each and every day?

Hezbollah is SUPPORTED and HARBORED by the Lebanese government. Listen to the speeches made at the Security Council yesterday.

Well no shit i would be pretty pissed if Israel was bombing the fuck out of my country and people. What do uw ant them to say, "Oh israel is comptlely right blocking our Nval ports destroying or economy and airports, roads and bridges so we cant get out etc;"....grow a brain kid.

At 7/15/06 09:28 AM, 4aces wrote:

At 7/15/06 09:23 AM, Turandot wrote:

At 7/15/06 06:55 AM, Cahenn wrote:

At 7/15/06 06:51 AM, 4aces wrote:

I banned you for calling me a 'racist slime' which I take as a personal insult. Saying Isreal kills civilians on purpose is not insulting you personally.

I am about as unracist as it comes.

I will be taking this up with the person who cleared your ban.

so don't you agree there should be language laws here?......that way this place won't be as childish......i mean you yourself refer to cetin forumites(me included..) as idiots...-as a moderator you should be a little above that don't you think??.....

I think the fact of the politics of this situation will always polarize opinion. Caheen for example will never believe that Isreal sponsors State Terrorism, he won't believe anything close to that. I on the other hand will not believe that Isreal is the victim or that anything they've done recently is other than either land--grab, terrorism, or disproportionate violence.

Because the two sides are very different, language calling happens. Because of this I apologize for calling you an idiot. I do suggest you read those original links I posted and reply to them, then give me your links and I'll reply to those. We have time to do that... But only if you want, I spent the time making this topic and the original links, if you want me to be serious with you, deal with those first.

Calling someone 'racist slime' though, and then boasting about it on the forums afterwards? Hmm.

At 7/13/06 01:10 PM, -Akula- wrote:

At 7/13/06 12:32 PM, JohnnyWang wrote:

At 7/13/06 12:06 PM, 4aces wrote: OMG....don't tell me you just read the picture story thing....do you know why israel targets houses?-those so called"civilian" houses are actually used as storage for hizbullah armamants...-i believe anyone assisting hizbullah by allowing them the storage of arms deserves a bomb in his house......

So I guess the 15 kids Israel has killed in the attacks so far were all dangerous terrorists.

They were used as human shields by terrorists. That's what they do, whether you like it or not. When the attacks took place to take out terrorist targets, if those sons of a bitches want to use children as a human shield you should blame them not the gunships.

YEah but if u know they are using the civilians as a shield. I would think civilians lives are worth more than military ones and u would try with your ebst efforts to minimize it. By say, sending in a special forces instead of being pussies and not caring if u killed the civlians with the terrorist. When there is a hostage situation they never jsut randomly kill everyone jsut as long as the Hostage takers are dead. they try to minimize as many civilan casualites as possible using tactics. Touche.

At 7/15/06 08:13 AM, Lidov wrote: Accusing a mod of something like that, whether true or false, could be a reason for a ban.

Why? Because mods are allowed to be racist?

At 7/15/06 09:23 AM, Turandot wrote: I banned you for calling me a 'racist slime' which I take as a personal insult. Saying Isreal kills civilians on purpose is not insulting you personally.

Saying Israelis are all nazi, that Israel as an entity targets civilians, and that we're inhumane is racist.

I am about as unracist as it comes.

Name one person who'd label him/herself as racist...

I will be taking this up with the person who cleared your ban.

Go ahead. I'd like to see someone justifying a ban for something like that, especially since if you weren't a mod this wouldn't have happened.

At 7/15/06 10:03 AM, gooze_bump wrote: YEah but if u know they are using the civilians as a shield.

Then we should just surrender?

I would think civilians lives are worth more than military ones and u would try with your ebst efforts to minimize it.

Our efforts indeed go to minimizing our civilian casualties.

Efforts are also being put into minimizing enemy civilian deaths.
I mean, for crying out loud, we warned the Lebanonese people to clear out of the area where the Hizbollah infastructures are located before bombarding them. This cost us what could have been the whipe out of leading Hizbollah members, including Nasrallah himself.

By say, sending in a special forces instead of being pussies and not caring if u killed the civlians with the terrorist.

Are we supposed to send our soldiers straight into hostile enemy territory?
We're trying to get our soldiers back, not killed.

When there is a hostage situation they never jsut randomly kill everyone jsut as long as the Hostage takers are dead. they try to minimize as many civilan casualites as possible using tactics.

In a hostage situation, it's the government's responsibillity to rescue it's own men.
It is Lebanon's duty to ensure it's people are not being used as human shields.
A country is not required to handle it's enemy country's hostage situations.

Touche.

Douche.

At 7/14/06 04:53 PM, Turandot wrote:

At 7/14/06 02:52 PM, -Akula- wrote:

At 7/14/06 06:58 AM, Turandot wrote: they're not living a life of dirt and fear like the people in Lebanon or the occupied territories.

Ah, they may not be living a life of dirt, but they are living a life of fear.

@ Turandot:

Do you have any idea how it is to step on a bus every day not knowing wether it's going to blow up?

Do you have any idea how it is to go to school, shopping or any other place for tha

...

Oh they live in fear do they. Oh yeah. Then they go back to their mostly safe homes with their food and friends and family and all the trappingss of wealth. On the other side...?? Do we need to go back there again and again? we all know who has the easy life, we all know which side targets power plants etc.

Are you trying to piss me off or do you just want to make yourself look stupid? Have you ever been there, have you ever seen if through your own fucking eyes? No you haven't. You have no fucking idea how Israel looks like. Yes they have family, yes they have food, but it no means are they safe. The bomb shelters are there for a reason you know. They get used. You think that my parents were happy when they came there years back and they were told to pick up gas masks just in case a dirty bomb would hit them.

I suggest you don't start about the situation inside Israel you ignorant moron, just for the simple reason that you have no fucking clue what you are talking about?

At 7/15/06 09:34 AM, Turandot wrote: I think the fact of the politics of this situation will always polarize opinion. Caheen for example will never believe that Isreal sponsors State Terrorism, he won't believe anything close to that. I on the other hand will not believe that Isreal is the victim or that anything they've done recently is other than either land--grab, terrorism, or disproportionate violence.

Because the two sides are very different, language calling happens. Because of this I apologize for calling you an idiot. I do suggest you read those original links I posted and reply to them, then give me your links and I'll reply to those. We have time to do that... But only if you want, I spent the time making this topic and the original links, if you want me to be serious with you, deal with those first.

Calling someone 'racist slime' though, and then boasting about it on the forums afterwards? Hmm.

You called all Israelis Nazis. As you may or may not know the nazis butchered Jews 60 years ago, killed them in gas chambers and judged them based solely on race, they spared noone for no reason. Most of us in Israel had family members killed by Nazis. You don't find calling Israelis nazi a bit offensive? honestly. You called Israelis a lot of names, how is being something as a group different than being called that as an individual (actually, calling a whole group something is much worth since you're generallizing).

You seem to feel strongly about the issue, how about you come and visit Israel and the area and see for yourself how Israel is? You're welcome to visit.

I won't believe that Israel sponsors terrorism because I am an Israeli, I live here and well... to be honest I don't want to kill people. I don't know anyone who wants to kill anyone, it is a horrible experiance. Israel as a country does not want to kill civilians, we don't have the interest to do so, and I have plenty of Arab, Palastinian (and even one ex=Lebanonese) friends. They don't like what the Israeli government but at least none of them thinks Israelis or Israel as an entity wants to kill civilians. We don't have anything to do with land--grab, we want to get rid of the west bank, golan and the rest of the areas we're not supposed to be in and have no interest, humane or financial to be in.

I'm trying to understand why you keep thinking Israel is a terrorist nation. You know what? 3 Israelis, all from a defensive-offensive media arguement point of view. I'm sure that if you were to meet an Israeli in a more normal situation you'll see that we're just people.

You have to understand that you saying Israelis want to kill people boils my blood, it is a very harsh accusation, and frankly, I think we can both agree that someone saying you have no morals and are blood thirthty is far worse than calling someone a racist slime...

At 7/15/06 09:23 AM, Turandot wrote: I banned you for calling me a 'racist slime' which I take as a personal insult. Saying Isreal kills civilians on purpose is not insulting you personally.

I agree, saying that Israel is killing civillians isn't a personal insult. However, calling the Israelis Nazis, while you know how much of a sensitive topic it is for the Israelis, is a personal insult. Calling me brainwahsed, terrorist and nazi is something which I had taken very personally, but you didn't see me whining to some mod asking you to be banned.

I am about as unracist as it comes.

I would have to say that it depends much on the definition of the word racism, sometimes you are not the best indicator of deciding whether you are racist or not.

At 7/15/06 10:21 AM, Cahenn wrote: Why? Because mods are allowed to be racist?

No, because there is this rule:
If you complain about what you feel are shortcomings of the current moderation team, you will most likely be banned. If you don't like it here, feel free to leave. Yes, the moderators can ban you for publicly complaining about them. They are here to do a free service, so they don't need to take your crap. If you'd like to take your complaint up with Wade, e-mail him.
But it seems like you aren't banned, so it doesn't really matter anyway.

At 7/14/06 04:54 PM, Tri-Nitro-Toluene wrote:

At 7/14/06 04:22 PM, -Akula- wrote: I will repeat what was said earlier. How do you want to destroy a terrorist organisation embedded inside the civilian public without hurting one civilian. They are doing the best they can. Where as perhaps other governments would carpet bomb, they try to spare as many civilian lives as possible.

That may be the case, but they have Mossad, why not use it to find EXACT targets and EXACT information instea dof what appears to be guesstimates. " Oh! Beirut has an airport, I bet you Hellzbollah use it to bring in supplies! Lets bomb it and cause gods knows how much damage to the economy".

Well let me answer 2 things. Mossad targets individual houses, they confirmed that the houses they bombed had launch platforms in there. The fact That daddy and mommy use their kids as human shields because they believe they will all die for Allah is not a reason not to bomb the place. If the parents are fucked up, it's not Israel's fault and it's okay to bomb the place to annihilate terrorists.

Part 2, Hesbollah is a terrorist organisation, they are not an army. They have machine guns and bombs. They don't have their own airfields. They rely on public transport to supply them. They even hijack UN trucks to load up bombs, or they mask their own trucks to look like it. The MOSSAD is accurate enough to know when the airport is being used for terrorist activity. That's why they are intel and why they have agents all over the place.

No but why does the world shut up when terrorists blow up a bus full of Israeli children. ALso again how is it possible to defend a country without hurting one civilian, tell me, I would love to hear it. Note that give me a way to do it while you can guarantee the safety of your citizens and make sure that terrorists wont attack.

There isn't a way to ensure that no civilians get hurt, but all I'm saying is that Israel appears to be hitting people indiscriminantly at the moment. Children are not viable targets.

They pick out targets, proof like they hit Gaza buildings when there was no one in it.

But one way to reduce the casualties in civilians would be to use the bloody intelligence agencies. America and Britian did it in iraq to rescue people that were captured, then by god, Israel can use Mossad to do the same thing.

America and Britain are still hunting them down. They were prepared when they went it, Israel wants to finish this asap.

They target terrorists, they don't target civilians. If so then America has no right to kill Al Qaida just because Al Qaida is pissing of the US.

No they are buildings ...Terrorists infrastructures are viable targets and that is exactly what they are blowing up.

And what will that do? How do you want to get the soldier out, he is guarded all the time and kept at one spot. The chance of getting discovered is big.

That didn't stop the British finding Norman Kember...

Different kinds of people, in Iraq they captured a peace protester, who supported them, here they have captured an enemy, they will execute him immediately. I think MOSSAD is aware of this and they don't want him to get killed.

You then can use crack troops to hit targets that you discover with your intelligence services and minmise the killing of civilians and also your own troops.

What are crack troops, I haven't heard that term before, care to explain?

Apart from that this operation is not only about the soldiers, it is also about stopping the rocket attacks.

And this Operation fails on that account as well.

Because they are holding back. They are ussing balanced force, if you let them they will totally wipe out the hezbollah. Like I said, they warned the civilians to get out of there, they gave them time to get out of there, everyone who stayed can be attacked.

How should a country such as Israel stop the whole of terrorism. All of the brigades are linked, do you realise the magnitude of the operation? I mean no one wants a nuke, right.

First off it could stop invading Lebanon, back out of Gaza and open up relations with Hamas so the peace process can get back on track. If they can do that, then hey presto, thigns will look better for the time. After that it falls to Palestine to sort out something, but if Israel isn't providing more kindling for the fundamentalist fire then maybe it'll have a chance. It may not, but trying is better than nothing.

Replace trying with risking. They want to guarantee the safety of the people of Israel, they will not netogiate with hamas. When hamas came to power they said they wouldnm't negotiate with Israel, they refused. That is when all of the crap started. And Hamas were elected by the people, they put themselves into this mess.

Terrorists fight fire with fire, what Israel is doing at the moment is jsut giving them more wood to burn so to speak.

How is that, they left Gaza and let them be. They gave them what they wanted, and they got shit back for it, they're tired of it and they respond.

I don't want that either, but I can assure you that if the terrorists decide to give up Israel will not fire anymore. But what I also know is that if Israel stops they have no guarantee that the arabs will stop. Let's be honest here, terrorists (note that I say terrorists, not arabs) are back stabbers.

Terrorists ar ebackstabbers, but sadly, you can not beat Terrorists at their own game. That's why what Israel is doing is pointless in my opinion.

Israel has proven that it is willing to comply. They give medical aid and education to those they capture. But terrorists tend to execute people, so how should one trust them?

You don't trust the terrorists or the governemnts for that matter. What you should do is take that funding that ISrael is holding back from Palestine, add a bit more, give it to an NGO like oxfam and get them to give aid to the Palestinian people. After a while it'll get around what Israel is doing and then maybe the people of Palestine will become friendlier to ISrael and vote for a party that wants to accept Israel as a state.

Man, listen to yourself. They gave aid to Palestine, it's not about aid, it's fundamentalism, you just don't seem to get it because you haven't experienced it. Aid was given but they still hate Israel for being Israel.

They don't want to occupy the country, they have no need for it. They want to rid the world of a pest called terrorism.

You can not rid the world of terrorism, that is an impossible task, that is why Bush's war on Terror is pointless. You remove one and hey ho and another pops up out of nowhere.

It is possible, but there is only one way. By eradicating terrorists, that's all they understand. And even if it's not fully possible you need to fight against it or else you will have to endure countless hits.

Here's the difference, you think you can't stop terrorism, right? But terrrorists think they can stop you and they will continue to wage war until they reach what they want, and if you sit still and don't resist, they will win.

They want to eradicate Hesbollah and Hamas altogether and that is way they are doing now.

That's what they are trying to do, but it won't work. I can guarntee that.

But they can sure as hell damage them. What are they supposed to do? Are they supposed to sit still and see how rockets land on their homes?

I know civilians die, and I hate to say what I am going to say but 'it's war'. I hate that line myself but I can't go around it. They honestly try not to kill civilians, all of their targets get used for terrorist purposes. The Mossad are very accurate in what they target and the army executes the attacks perfectly.

I think that if Israel wanted to target civilians they would carpet bomb the place.

I'm sure Israel isn't blowing up things willy nilly, but the way I see it, by killing innocent people, even if they are in a terrorist location, you stoop to the level of the terrorists.

No, terrorism is something you are pretty much born with, it has become part of the culture, if you get born into a terrorist family you will become a terrorist. The only way to stop it is by taking out the source.

Sorry if this seems harsh but how do you stop cockroaches?

At 7/15/06 10:34 AM, Lidov wrote:

At 7/15/06 09:23 AM, Turandot wrote: I banned you

I agree,

Godamnit Lidov, grow some balls and start caring about your people more than your NG status.

At 7/15/06 10:21 AM, Cahenn wrote: Why? Because mods are allowed to be racist?

No, because there is this rule:
If you complain about what you feel are shortcomings of the current moderation team

That's bullshit, that rule relates to cases in which the fact the member is a moderator matters. What I told her had nothing to do with her being a mod here.
I'm disappointed in what you have become, placing your NG ethics above your ethics as a person. I can not understand how you would agree with banning me, the fact she is a mod was not brought up until she abused her power and banned me.

I have the feeling I got a ban coming up aswell, perhaps I am wrong, perhaps I am right, but before someone shuts me up I want to get this out.
It seems that people want war to be fair. Well here's the deal, war is not fair. If someone has a tank and the other guy has a gun you don't jump out with a gun and start fighting, you blow him to bits and the only thing left is the base of his gun and even that is totally screwed up.
Remember when the Brits refused to use submarines against their enemies because they thought that it was without honor to destroy someone's ship by drilling a hole into it...well they lost.
Also as Netanyahu said earlier, Israel is fullfilling UN resolutions (he named numbers, I forgot the numbers)

Also a transcript from
Larry King Live

Pay attention to the part about Lebanon

In a side note I feel that this topic is getting useless, we believe what we believe and there is no need in convincing us because we are all 'stubborn assholes' right Sarai?

So if we are stubborn, heartless sons of a bitches than I suggest you stop replying to us.

If you wish to continue then I am open for further discussion.

The only way to prove you wrong is if Israel stops with it's offensive, get's totally wiped off of the earth like the Iranian president wanted and thus terrorism wins. Then you will get what you want and probably loads what you don't want.

At 7/15/06 11:45 AM, -Akula- wrote: I have the feeling I got a ban coming up aswell, perhaps I am wrong, perhaps I am right, but before someone shuts me up I want to get this out.

Sarai is a mod not a god, she can ban you for stuff you say, but the big guy up there is a great guy, and he'll hear you out.

we believe what we believe and there is no need in convincing us because we are all 'stubborn assholes' right Sarai?

Don't forget we're 'just wrong' and we're just too stupid and stubborn to understand that, Sarai is not debating, she is teaching us because she obviously knows much more than us people.

The only way to prove you wrong is if Israel stops with it's offensive,

I honestly think she should come to Israel and experiance it like it really is. I think that it is a great idea, and she should go ahead and really try it, I personally wouldn't mind showing her around all the hot places, and I'm sure other people wouldn't mind showing her the country, apart from the ones who live up north because they're being bombarded.

At 7/15/06 11:18 AM, -Akula- wrote: Well let me answer 2 things. Mossad targets individual houses, they confirmed that the houses they bombed had launch platforms in there. The fact That daddy and mommy use their kids as human shields because they believe they will all die for Allah is not a reason not to bomb the place. If the parents are fucked up, it's not Israel's fault and it's okay to bomb the place to annihilate terrorists.

And ther eis the major problem I have with your arguement. I don't think killing innocent kids is jsutified if it gets rid of some terrorists. If you do think that's fine, then fair enough, but I don't and I'm of the opinion that it should be stopped, but the Terrorists aren't going to stop hiding with families or whatever, so it really falls down to Israel not to bomb them.

I consdier all kids lives sacred and whislt I detest the fatc that terrorists use them as shields, I dislike the fact that Israel is killing them.

Part 2, Hesbollah is a terrorist organisation, they are not an army. They have machine guns and bombs. They don't have their own airfields. They rely on public transport to supply them. They even hijack UN trucks to load up bombs, or they mask their own trucks to look like it. The MOSSAD is accurate enough to know when the airport is being used for terrorist activity. That's why they are intel and why they have agents all over the place.

If they have the intelligence then fine, I still don't think its right and just to bomb a major airport which not disrupts life for the Lebanese, but puts the lives of foreigner sin the coutnry at risk as well. According to a BBC report on the news today, ther eis soemthing like 10,000 Britains in lebanon. How are they emant to get out when every piec eof infrastructure is being targetted?

They pick out targets, proof like they hit Gaza buildings when there was no one in it.

I'm not denying they pick out targets, what I'm saying is that they choose targets that have terrorists in them and innocents. As I've alreayd said, I don't think anything justifies the killing of a child.

Different kinds of people, in Iraq they captured a peace protester, who supported them, here they have captured an enemy, they will execute him immediately. I think MOSSAD is aware of this and they don't want him to get killed.

If that's the case then wont the soldiers alreayd be dead? If that's true then why bother with this consdiering the reaosn you went into Lebanon and Gaza again was to get them back?

And anyway, they won't have been killed yet, capturing soldier sis the only tactic that Palestine has had a success with in getting thigns they want, Israel released some Prisoner sin the past when a soldier was captured according to a BBC report on the radio I heard. The terrorists will be thinking that if it worked once, it'll work again and keep the soldiers alive.

What are crack troops, I haven't heard that term before, care to explain?

Crack troops are the best troops that a country has. For example, the SAS are Britains crack troops and are taken from the best in the armed forces and given extra training to make them even better.

Basically they are the uber soldiers that go in, kick butt and get out with hardly a scratch on them.

Because they are holding back. They are ussing balanced force, if you let them they will totally wipe out the hezbollah. Like I said, they warned the civilians to get out of there, they gave them time to get out of there, everyone who stayed can be attacked.

No. it doesn't fial because they are " Holding back". It fails because all this display does is piss off more people in the middle east and around the worldwhich increases people sympathetic to the Anti Israeli cause which means that the membership and funding to groups such as Hamas will increase and the attacks will continue.

Replace trying with risking. They want to guarantee the safety of the people of Israel, they will not netogiate with hamas. When hamas came to power they said they wouldnm't negotiate with Israel, they refused. That is when all of the crap started. And Hamas were elected by the people, they put themselves into this mess.

Unless they do negotiate with Hamas then the people of Israel will still be at risk. And whilst it's true that the Hamas Government refused to talk to Israel when they came to power, I seem to recall that a few weeks before all this shit started that Hamas and Fatah signed some kind of treaty that detailed how they would work together to sort out the problems with Israel. That seems to me to suggest that Hamas was possibly coming round to diplomacy of some sort. If that was the case then they wre opening up and would have started to talk to Israel.

How is that, they left Gaza and let them be. They gave them what they wanted, and they got shit back for it, they're tired of it and they respond.

They are retaliating in the same sort of fashion that the terrorists are using. They are fighting firepower with firepower. Them bombing the crap out of Lebanon pisses of the Lebanese and recruits more people to Hellzbollah who then fire at Israel who then respond untill the entire middle east dissapears up its own ass after going around in ever decreasing circles till it no longer exists cause its been nuked by one side or the other.

At 7/15/06 11:58 AM, Tri-Nitro-Toluene wrote: And ther eis the major problem I have with your arguement. I don't think killing innocent kids is jsutified if it gets rid of some terrorists. If you do think that's fine, then fair enough, but I don't and I'm of the opinion that it should be stopped, but the Terrorists aren't going to stop hiding with families or whatever, so it really falls down to Israel not to bomb them.

Technically, you're absolutely right. I can't name one person that approves killing innocent kids to nail some terrorists. However, think of what terrorists do. If you don't risk children, you are willingly risking your own children. It's harsh but I'd risk your kids to save the lives of mine, can you agree with that?

According to a BBC report on the news today, ther eis soemthing like 10,000 Britains in lebanon. How are they emant to get out when every piec eof infrastructure is being targetted?

We're not destroying every piece of infrastructure. We only bombed the airport and that is to avoid aerial strikes. We did drop flyers in advance saying we'll do so, asking all citizens to evacuate if they wish to remain saves.

I'm not denying they pick out targets, what I'm saying is that they choose targets that have terrorists in them and innocents. As I've alreayd said, I don't think anything justifies the killing of a child.

Nothing justifies the killing of an innocent, child or not. Killing innocent is not Israel's intent but we HAVE to risk their civilians to protect our own.

If that's the case then wont the soldiers alreayd be dead?

Chances are they are, that's what happened last time they kidnapped soldiers, and the reason we're not negociating with them.

If that's true then why bother with this consdiering the reaosn you went into Lebanon and Gaza again was to get them back?

We got to Gaza because the first soldier (unlike the other two) is not dead. We have pretty solid proof of that, and thay have solid requests. They won't kill him unless they have a reason to. We also went to gaza to stop Quassam launches. The reason we went to Lebanon is to harm Hizbullah, noone here believes we'll really free our two kidnapped soldiers there.

And anyway, they won't have been killed yet, capturing soldier sis the only tactic that Palestine has had a success with in getting thigns they want,

How about recognizing Israel, and stopping terrorism? That would get them peace, territory and a stable economy...

Israel released some Prisoner sin the past when a soldier was captured according to a BBC report on the radio I heard. The terrorists will be thinking that if it worked once, it'll work again and keep the soldiers alive.

Which is why we won't deal with them again, they'll just kidnap more soldiers

Crack troops are the best troops that a country has.

Matcal, Shayetet, Mossad Elite Army Troups, and a few others you haven't heard of are Israel's commando :)

Basically they are the uber soldiers that go in, kick butt and get out with hardly a scratch on them.

You can include our air force in that two, for every Israeli plane dropped, we dropped 23 hostiles.

Unless they do negotiate with Hamas then the people of Israel will still be at risk.

If they release the soldier, at least we'll have the soldier back and we'll stop our actions in Gaza.

untill the entire middle east dissapears up its own ass after going around in ever decreasing circles till it no longer exists cause its been nuked by one side or the other.

If we harm Hizbullah and Hammas in a big manner, it'll take them a couple more years before they'll be a threat again

At 7/15/06 11:58 AM, Tri-Nitro-Toluene wrote:

At 7/15/06 11:18 AM, -Akula- wrote: Well let me answer 2 things. Mossad targets individual houses, they confirmed that the houses they bombed had launch platforms in there. The fact That daddy and mommy use their kids as human shields because they believe they will all die for Allah is not a reason not to bomb the place. If the parents are fucked up, it's not Israel's fault and it's okay to bomb the place to annihilate terrorists.

And ther eis the major problem I have with your arguement. I don't think killing innocent kids is jsutified if it gets rid of some terrorists. If you do think that's fine, then fair enough, but I don't and I'm of the opinion that it should be stopped, but the Terrorists aren't going to stop hiding with families or whatever, so it really falls down to Israel not to bomb them.

You are illustrating the problem right. I don't like to see children die, hell i'm a kid myself, but I like kids younger than me and I don't want them to die. Apart from those who already have been transformed to fully fledged suicide bombers. But the thing is, Israel can't just sit there and let Hesbollah set up rockets.

I don't want to see lebanese kids die, but here's the deal. For Israel it's either their own people or the lebanese, and as harsh as it may seem, but it's logical to save your own people first.

I consdier all kids lives sacred and whislt I detest the fatc that terrorists use them as shields, I dislike the fact that Israel is killing them.

I don't like it either.

Part 2, Hesbollah is a terrorist organisation, they are not an army. They have machine guns and bombs. They don't have their own airfields. They rely on public transport to supply them. They even hijack UN trucks to load up bombs, or they mask their own trucks to look like it. The MOSSAD is accurate enough to know when the airport is being used for terrorist activity. That's why they are intel and why they have agents all over the place.

If they have the intelligence then fine, I still don't think its right and just to bomb a major airport which not disrupts life for the Lebanese, but puts the lives of foreigner sin the coutnry at risk as well. According to a BBC report on the news today, ther eis soemthing like 10,000 Britains in lebanon. How are they emant to get out when every piec eof infrastructure is being targetted?

If America can evacuate 25.000 Americans and Holland can evacuate it's citizens, which they are both doing by the way, then Britain can evacuate it's citizens.

They pick out targets, proof like they hit Gaza buildings when there was no one in it.

I'm not denying they pick out targets, what I'm saying is that they choose targets that have terrorists in them and innocents. As I've alreayd said, I don't think anything justifies the killing of a child.

See reply above, same problem.

Different kinds of people, in Iraq they captured a peace protester, who supported them, here they have captured an enemy, they will execute him immediately. I think MOSSAD is aware of this and they don't want him to get killed.

If that's the case then wont the soldiers alreayd be dead? If that's true then why bother with this consdiering the reaosn you went into Lebanon and Gaza again was to get them back?

here's the deal. If Israeli forces find and save him they have nothing to lose and they will kill him as soon as they see a soldier. But as long as Israel hasn't found him it's better for him to keep him alive, because they know that Israel will unleash it's full force if they kill him now.

And anyway, they won't have been killed yet, capturing soldier sis the only tactic that Palestine has had a success with in getting thigns they want, Israel released some Prisoner sin the past when a soldier was captured according to a BBC report on the radio I heard. The terrorists will be thinking that if it worked once, it'll work again and keep the soldiers alive.

I hope they will keep him alive.

Second half coming up.

At 7/15/06 11:29 AM, Cahenn wrote: Godamnit Lidov, grow some balls and start caring about your people more than your NG status.

Don't be like that, you know how much I support Israel on the forums, all I said that maybe it wasn't the wisest step to talk about your ban in the forums. Besides, just so that you will know, I don't care much about my Ng status anymore, I am not active as much as I used to be in here. Besides, I think it is obvious that it is you which I support in this debate, if you read what I wrote to Sarai...

What are crack troops, I haven't heard that term before, care to explain?

Crack troops are the best troops that a country has. For example, the SAS are Britains crack troops and are taken from the best in the armed forces and given extra training to make them even better.

Basically they are the uber soldiers that go in, kick butt and get out with hardly a scratch on them.

Well perhaps they are doing it right now, if they are you and I sure as hell wouldn't know it. Giving it out to the media means you're giving it out to the terrorists, because they have enough money to get info.

Assuming they are Israel has only more reason to hold up the offensive. Because if they draw back now, the terrorists are going to be all like 'wtf, something's wrong here, this isn't Israel like we know it' even tough they will tell the media they have won. They're not that dumb not to do underground operations.

But then again when they get the soldiers back the rockets wont stop

.: : Because they are holding back. They are ussing balanced force, if you let them they will totally wipe out the hezbollah. Like I said, they warned the civilians to get out of there, they gave them time to get out of there, everyone who stayed can be attacked.

No. it doesn't fial because they are " Holding back". It fails because all this display does is piss off more people in the middle east and around the worldwhich increases people sympathetic to the Anti Israeli cause which means that the membership and funding to groups such as Hamas will increase and the attacks will continue.

They aren't 'Holding Back', they are holding back. No one knows what kind of arsenal they gave. The thing is that the Anti Israeli cause is being fueled by supporters from the west who are playing into the Arab nations hands. Arab nations rely on the way the get shown to the western media, like the underdog. Israel is left without a choice, it has to protect it's citizens and if it stops with it's offensive it's doomed. It's not a country of steel it won't survive rocket attacks, you and I both know it. And if Iran starts to cause trouble then no one knows what those guys can offer.

Replace trying with risking. They want to guarantee the safety of the people of Israel, they will not netogiate with hamas. When hamas came to power they said they wouldnm't negotiate with Israel, they refused. That is when all of the crap started. And Hamas were elected by the people, they put themselves into this mess.

Unless they do negotiate with Hamas then the people of Israel will still be at risk. And whilst it's true that the Hamas Government refused to talk to Israel when they came to power, I seem to recall that a few weeks before all this shit started that Hamas and Fatah signed some kind of treaty that detailed how they would work together to sort out the problems with Israel. That seems to me to suggest that Hamas was possibly coming round to diplomacy of some sort. If that was the case then they wre opening up and would have started to talk to Israel.

Here's the deal with Hamas and why you shouldn't trust them. And I am not going to talk about how they are back stabbind sons of a bitches, i'll leave that aside.

The thing with Hamas is that they abuse democracy.

'Oficially' they announced that they are in no way related to their militant wing. They said they have different views on how to handle the situation, so diplomatically you can't touch them. But they are involved because they are getting money from them and other resources. It has been tracked, but due to democracy you can't touch them. I don't know the details of this manner since I haven't studied law.

How is that, they left Gaza and let them be. They gave them what they wanted, and they got shit back for it, they're tired of it and they respond.

They are retaliating in the same sort of fashion that the terrorists are using. They are fighting firepower with firepower. Them bombing the crap out of Lebanon pisses of the Lebanese and recruits more people to Hellzbollah who then fire at Israel who then respond untill the entire middle east dissapears up its own ass after going around in ever decreasing circles till it no longer exists cause its been nuked by one side or the other.

But let's remember what triggered the current event. The Lebanese went into the Israeli territory across the border, killed soldiers and captured two.

So this proves that the current conflict was started from that side. Now tell me is it normal for a country to say: 'oh we don't blame you even tough you killed our people, we're just going to sit quiet and mind our own business.'

It's not, because if you do that, they will keep coming back.

I hate to bring up mentality but that is the general arab mentality. Sometimes it is good, but in this case it's not.

At 7/15/06 11:21 AM, -Akula- wrote: Man, listen to yourself. They gave aid to Palestine, it's not about aid, it's fundamentalism, you just don't seem to get it because you haven't experienced it. Aid was given but they still hate Israel for being Israel.

Fundamentalism, shmundamentalism. If you look at the majority of countries that have spawned terrorists, there is one major thing about all of them. The countries they come from are poor.

Terrorism isn't about Muslims wanting to rid the land of the non believers, its about poverty and the fact that Palestininians look at how Israel lives and are jealous. They think that as it was once their land that they should live there and have that lifestyle. The fact that Palestine is Muslim and Israel is jewish is nothing to do with it. It could easily have been Jewish and Christian or Christian and Scientologists and you would still have the same results.

To my knowledge there is nothing in the Quran that specifically states that how the west lives is wrong. If I'm right then there is no religious arguement for any terrorist attacks, it just so happens that the majority of them are muslim.

Terroism isn't about religion, its about poverty, lack of education and inequality. You get those people out of Poverty, give them an edcuartion and oppurtunities then you remove the root of the problem. If you educate someone they form their own opinions and begin to question what they have been told. If they have been bought up to believe Jews are the spawn of satan then they start to question that belief and come to a conclusion that is more favourable to Israel.

It is possible, but there is only one way. By eradicating terrorists, that's all they understand. And even if it's not fully possible you need to fight against it or else you will have to endure countless hits.

YOU CAN NOT ERADICATE TERRORISM! The fact that despite everything Britain tried the IRA still managed to survive shows that you can not eradicate it. For example, as soon as the Provisional IRA halted its attacks, a splinter group formed and, surprise surprise, the Real IRA took up the fight, not on the same scale but they did take up the fight.

Here's the difference, you think you can't stop terrorism, right? But terrrorists think they can stop you and they will continue to wage war until they reach what they want, and if you sit still and don't resist, they will win.

I'm not saying don't resist, I'm saying don't blow them up, deal with the root cause of the problem, which in my opinion is poverty , poor education and lack of oppurtunities. If you remove those causes you'll find that the problem dissipates to almsot negligible levels.

But they can sure as hell damage them. What are they supposed to do? Are they supposed to sit still and see how rockets land on their homes?

They can lend their efforts to eradicate poverty in the area and educate the Palestinian and Lebanese people. You do that and I wouldn't be surprised to find that the amount of anti israeli feeling dissapears.

No, terrorism is something you are pretty much born with, it has become part of the culture, if you get born into a terrorist family you will become a terrorist. The only way to stop it is by taking out the source.

And again I say the source is poverty, poor education and lack of oppurtunity. Remove them and you will decrease terrorism. If a city if built on a swamp and people get ill from a fever, do you blow up the city in the hope sof destroying the virsu, or do you drain the swamp to make it habitable for humans?

Sorry if this seems harsh but how do you stop cockroaches?

You kill them. But Cockroaches aren't human, and cockroaches don't posses the intelligence to change. Humans do.

At 7/15/06 12:20 PM, Lidov wrote: Don't be like that, you know how much I support Israel on the forums,

Yep, until some mod comes by and suddenly you're not so assertive anymore. The fact you compare the lives of people to the risk of a mod not liking you is absurd.

all I said that maybe it wasn't the wisest step to talk about your ban in the forums.

You justified the ban which was clearly unjust...

Besides, just so that you will know, I don't care much about my Ng status anymore, I am not active as much as I used to be in here.

Way to show it...

Besides, I think it is obvious that it is you which I support in this debate, if you read what I wrote to Sarai...

You need to stand up to people who try to bully you and to stand up to what you believe in.

At 7/15/06 12:35 PM, -Akula- wrote: Well perhaps they are doing it right now, if they are you and I sure as hell wouldn't know it. Giving it out to the media means you're giving it out to the terrorists, because they have enough money to get info.

Assuming they are Israel has only more reason to hold up the offensive. Because if they draw back now, the terrorists are going to be all like 'wtf, something's wrong here, this isn't Israel like we know it' even tough they will tell the media they have won. They're not that dumb not to do underground operations.

But then again when they get the soldiers back the rockets wont stop

I'm not saying that Sirale isn't using them now. What I'm saying is that they should have used them to get the soldiers back and then left it at that.

They aren't 'Holding Back', they are holding back. No one knows what kind of arsenal they gave. The thing is that the Anti Israeli cause is being fueled by supporters from the west who are playing into the Arab nations hands. Arab nations rely on the way the get shown to the western media, like the underdog. Israel is left without a choice, it has to protect it's citizens and if it stops with it's offensive it's doomed. It's not a country of steel it won't survive rocket attacks, you and I both know it. And if Iran starts to cause trouble then no one knows what those guys can offer.

Regardless of whether they are holding back or not, it really doesn't matter as I think they are going about this thre wrong way. They won't remove the problem by bombing lebanon.

Here's the deal with Hamas and why you shouldn't trust them. And I am not going to talk about how they are back stabbind sons of a bitches, i'll leave that aside.

The thing with Hamas is that they abuse democracy.

'Oficially' they announced that they are in no way related to their militant wing. They said they have different views on how to handle the situation, so diplomatically you can't touch them. But they are involved because they are getting money from them and other resources. It has been tracked, but due to democracy you can't touch them. I don't know the details of this manner since I haven't studied law.

I'm not denying that, and I agree with you on that point that its shitty you can't touch them but if they wanna sort out the situation then you remove the cause of the terrorism. amas and Helzbolla are not the causes, they are symptons of the cause.

But let's remember what triggered the current event. The Lebanese went into the Israeli territory across the border, killed soldiers and captured two.

So this proves that the current conflict was started from that side. Now tell me is it normal for a country to say: 'oh we don't blame you even tough you killed our people, we're just going to sit quiet and mind our own business.'

It's not, because if you do that, they will keep coming back.

I hate to bring up mentality but that is the general arab mentality. Sometimes it is good, but in this case it's not.

I'm not denying that, but Israel is still reacting with disproportionate force. It's the equivalent of me shooitng someone in the head for bumping into me on the street.