At 10/6/09 08:59 PM, Patton3 wrote: Atheism is merely not believing in a god(s). Not that you don't believe anything exists... just not deitites. Beyond that, Atheists are actually a very broad spectrum of people.

That's a pretty good argument, I'll give you that. When I was Atheist back in 8th grade, I pissed my Christian friends off by just saying every time they said the word "God", "I don't care/I don't believe". True, valid point-there are a LOT of atheists, all of whom are very logical and reasonal. You guys here aren't ignorant, and I don't mean to offend anyone here. Sorry if I do.

Technically speaking, if you don't believe in a "God" or "Deity", you can't believe in it's fundamentals-that's like saying water will remain it's frozen state (ice), without cold. You can't believe in a god/deity, yet you believe in what they stand for? Please explain, I like debating with people :P

At 10/6/09 10:07 PM, OrangeString wrote: That's a pretty good argument, I'll give you that.

That was the same thing I was saying!
All you were doing was saying 'Oh, forget the other stuff you believe in, but you don't believe in religion... therefore nothing'. Your point made no sense.

You can't believe in a god/deity, yet you believe in what they stand for? Please explain, I like debating with people :P

You can make moral choices without believing in a God.
Religion doesn't have a monopoly on good. They don't license out morality, as if you need to pay some credit to religion if you decide to live morally. You can do it without acknowledging a higher power.

At 10/4/09 06:31 PM, michelinman wrote:

Then again, not all religious people are the ones to blame for this.

Indirectly, I believe you are.

And may I ask why?

At 10/7/09 09:41 AM, mrty wrote:

At 10/4/09 06:31 PM, michelinman wrote:

And may I ask why?

He means that because we don't speak out against them, that we're supporting it. I understand what mich is getting across, but it's a bit of a stretch. That's like saying scientists support bio terrorism because they're not out there constantly saying they don't support it.

Nev pretty much covered it, but the idea of not believing in god but still seeing worth and value in leading a good life and doing good deeds would be humanism. The largest humanist organization being the BHA, the British Humanist Organization.
To elaborate further, you stated that how can you not believe in a god, yet believe in the things they stand for. Let's take too religions, Christianity and Islam. I don't think a person of either faith, if they were honest with themselves, would disagree with some of the basic preachings of the other group.

I'd like to join this club. I used to be a very devout Catholic, and I study in a Jesuit school. I even thought atheists were evil and such. But then I saw the light.

Kind of hard being an atheist in a 95% Catholic nation.

I'd like to join the club, and jump right into the debate.

But first a little something about my background.
My parents did not baptise me, thinking and later telling me I should make my decision about god later in life, something I recommend more parents should do. They never told me anything about god or jesus, apart from the Christmas story which I never really associated with Christianity as a kid, somehow. The only religious "teachings" I had really were the ones I got at school, there were a couple of those, such as Sodom and Gomorrha (spelling?), Noah's Ark, the Easter story, Adam and Eve, genesis and of course also the Christmas story (again). But these stories I saw more as exciting stories. I never thought of it as religious.

Now I write it down I realize that the 1st and 2nd year of my school time actually included quite a bit of religious "education". But as I've said it never had a great impact on me. I think my older brother had a big impact on my atheist thoughts and, in general, people I looked up to as intelligent, sensible people seemed to fly the atheist flag. The more I learned about religion and it's history the more I doubted it. Pretty much my whole (close) family is now atheist or only very loosely tied to religion. To me religion is fantasy until proven right, to me it's the same thing as if someone would say "hey there's an orc in the garden." and not show me the orc.

Anyway, to the debate.
I agree that even milldly religious people are partly responsible for extremists. If you tell someone the bible or the koran or the torah is the word of god, then it is only normal that some people will take those books literally with all their atrocious sayings such as (the bible) "homosexuals should be stoned". I understand that normal non extremists use these books for good. But I think there are better inspirations that don't include the evil stuff that the religious books have in them.

To put my views quite simply: religion has negative side effects. A moral upbringing hasn't.

I think an important point to make to all mildly religious people (in this case christian) is, you don't believe everything that's said in the bible. Do you really think people who work on the sabbath should be killed and all homosexuals should be stoned? And when you realize that you don't believe these things, you realize that you never really used the bible to make moral choices in the first place. The problem is: extremists often do.

To give you something else here's an interesting video about anti-atheism and some of the negative impacts of religion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMpWRZ7_A 34

Can I join? I'm a former christian(I spit on your grave, christians). I got let down a bunch of times, so I am now an athiest.

Hey mrty? Since you're Muslim, and the NG Muslim association has sort of... disappeared, I was wondering if you'd answer a question or two:
What is your opinion on ijtihad?
Do you feel animosity toward certain Islamic sects, such as the Juhaiman?
Have you ever been to Mecca? If so, what's it like?

At 10/7/09 03:17 PM, MultiCanimefan wrote: He means that because we don't speak out against them, that we're supporting it. I understand what mich is getting across, but it's a bit of a stretch. That's like saying scientists support bio terrorism because they're not out there constantly saying they don't support it.

Not really, and mrty, this is gonna answer your question too. I'm gonna have to throw out a hypothetical situation in order to get my point across. I'm gonna use Christianity as the example, but this applies to any religion. Lets say you are an regular church going citizen. You follow the word of the bible, but you understand that it may not be the exact word of God. It's your way of connecting with whatever is god. There's another person that goes to your church with you that you have known for a long time. He's a bit of a loner, but his heart is in the right place. He's one of those types of people that thinks the rules in the bible ALWAYS comes first. You can never convince him to do anything that strays from the bible even in the slightest, and since you don't dedicate your life to the word of the bible absolutely, 100%, he doesn't connect with you. He mostly sticks to himself. He takes being religious to a whole new level, but you see this as a good thing. He has dedicated almost all of his time to improving himself as a Christian, and there's nothing wrong with that in your eyes.

This young man is displaying all of the telltale signs of catastrophic delusion, but it goes by unnoticed, as everyone just sees him as the quiet type, and doesn't realize the severity of what is going on. Eventually, the young man in this situation, for sake of the argument, commits one of the hundreds of atrocities attributed to religion each year. Quite simply, when ANY religious text is taken 100% seriously, and you believe every single sentence in the book, then you are able to justify in your mind all the terrible things in said book, which makes it seem justifiable in your mind to do terrible things such as murdering abortion doctors, blowing yourself up in a deli, killing your children to save them from satan, etc.

I'm not saying Christianity caused it, but it definitely ALLOWED it. If that young man had been unexposed to religion, it would have been made clear at a young age that he was having mental problems of some kind and that he needed to see a psychiatrist. Because he was Christian, and his delusions were based in a "good" direction, his problems were not noticed until it was too late. Basically, when a child has an instable mind, and you indoctrinate them with your religion, not only does this child justify in their minds all of the terrible things in the bible, but they also aren't identifiable as mentally handicapped. That's where I believe religion indirectly promotes all of the horrible things done in its name.

At 10/8/09 09:02 PM, michelinman wrote:

At 10/7/09 03:17 PM, MultiCanimefan wrote:

He mostly sticks to himself. He takes being religious to a whole new level, but you see this as a good thing...He has dedicated almost all of his time to improving himself as a Christian, and there's nothing wrong with that in your eyes.

Just to be clear, are you referring to me specifically or whoever is listening for the sake of upholding the hypothetical? Because I know for a fact I wouldn't just let this kid slip by like this.

This young man is displaying all of the telltale signs of catastrophic delusion, but it goes by unnoticed, as everyone just sees him as the quiet type, and doesn't realize the severity of what is going on.

If he's already reserved and is the quiet type, there's really not much one can do or predict about what he's going to do or might do as a result of his religious beliefs.

I'm not saying Christianity caused it, but it definitely ALLOWED it.

Eh, alright, but how much blame can you actually place on the religion itself?

If that young man had been unexposed to religion, it would have been made clear at a young age that he was having mental problems of some kind and that he needed to see a psychiatrist.

Were his catastrophic delusions a result of his beliefs or not? Is the society in which this situation takes place very religious in itself? If it is, you'd have a point, as the people would just be thinking the Lord is connecting with him.

Because he was Christian, and his delusions were based in a "good" direction, his problems were not noticed until it was too late.

If he wasn't a Christian, it wouldn't make much difference because he wouldn't have told anyone anyway because of his personality.

Basically, when a child has an instable mind, and you indoctrinate them with your religion, not only does this child justify in their minds all of the terrible things in the bible, but they also aren't identifiable as mentally handicapped.

This is going to get hazy if we need to start defining what exactly makes someone mentally handicapped. I'm split on the definitions of words and drawing lines as it is.

That's where I believe religion indirectly promotes all of the horrible things done in its name.

Ok, I can better understand now where you're coming from. However, it is not the religion itself to blame if it happens to indirectly promote these horrible things. It is still up to the individual and the people with whom he associates to prevent this from happening. If he follows the Bible literally, he should look at those who don't and instead of wanting to destroy them, ask them questions as to why they don't share the same fervency.

At 10/8/09 09:41 PM, MultiCanimefan wrote: However, it is not the religion itself to blame if it happens to indirectly promote these horrible things. It is still up to the individual and the people with whom he associates to prevent this from happening. If he follows the Bible literally, he should look at those who don't and instead of wanting to destroy them, ask them questions as to why they don't share the same fervency.

Well if the religion claims and teaches that the bible is the word of god, I would say that this is a big contribution to the problem. What I find odd about people who say, "Well, I only believe in some parts of the bible." is why do you need the bible if you're making your own moral choices anyway.

For example, there is a part of the bible that says that homosexuals must be put to death [Leviticus 20:13]. Now I'm guessing that you or at least most christians disagree with this statement. If you don't believe this part, why not search for your morals elsewhere? Somewhere where their aren't these negative "side effects." Surely you can find other scriptures (or whatever) without such horrible statements. I think that as a society we have actually become more moral or at least less cruel than the god in the bible. Shouldn't god be kind?

So...whats there to talk about in this club? Whats the point? Is it to discuss atheism and be able to say things about religion that you can't say anywhere else or something?

At 10/9/09 07:00 AM, FC-Thun-Fan wrote:

At 10/8/09 09:41 PM, MultiCanimefan wrote:

Shouldn't god be kind?

He is(I say "He" for the sake of being concise, but there is no set sex for God) but religion does what it does which includes using God as an excuse to do anything. Attributing ANY sort scripture to God doesn't make any sense. The god of the Bible, Qur'an, and Torah is not the "real deal," so to speak. Ever notice that religions with God at the focus tend to be more violent than those without? Well, there's a reason for that.

At 10/8/09 09:41 PM, MultiCanimefan wrote:

At 10/8/09 09:02 PM, michelinman wrote:

At 10/7/09 03:17 PM, MultiCanimefan wrote:

He mostly sticks to himself. He takes being religious to a whole new level, but you see this as a good thing...He has dedicated almost all of his time to improving himself as a Christian, and there's nothing wrong with that in your eyes.

Just to be clear, are you referring to me specifically or whoever is listening for the sake of upholding the hypothetical? Because I know for a fact I wouldn't just let this kid slip by like this.

Hypothetical, and don't be so certain. It's not like the kid would seem creepy. I don't think he'd raise any flags, especially if you'd known him for most of your life.

This young man is displaying all of the telltale signs of catastrophic delusion, but it goes by unnoticed, as everyone just sees him as the quiet type, and doesn't realize the severity of what is going on.

If he's already reserved and is the quiet type, there's really not much one can do or predict about what he's going to do or might do as a result of his religious beliefs.

But in an atheistic community, it raises questions when someone is quiet and keeps mostly to himself. We don't say, oh well he has a relationship with god, so he's getting by ok. We say that poor kid is all alone. We need to get him outside and let him start meeting people and try to raise him up as a normal member of society.

I'm not saying Christianity caused it, but it definitely ALLOWED it.

Eh, alright, but how much blame can you actually place on the religion itself?

Enough to where I think measures should be taken to prevent kids from being propagated into believing a religion at a young age. I think religion shouldn't be exposed to kids until they are old enough to think for themselves.

If that young man had been unexposed to religion, it would have been made clear at a young age that he was having mental problems of some kind and that he needed to see a psychiatrist.

Were his catastrophic delusions a result of his beliefs or not? Is the society in which this situation takes place very religious in itself? If it is, you'd have a point, as the people would just be thinking the Lord is connecting with him.

Not a result, no. This kid was born with mental problems, as are most people who grow up to be murderers. Just no flags were raised as like you said, people thought he just had a very strong bond with god and wasn't having any problems. And yes, this is a religious society, like all places which breed religious violence are.

Because he was Christian, and his delusions were based in a "good" direction, his problems were not noticed until it was too late.

If he wasn't a Christian, it wouldn't make much difference because he wouldn't have told anyone anyway because of his personality.

He wouldn't have to have told anyone. In an atheistic society, the parents, teachers, and kids at school would have noticed that the child wasn't adapting to life very well, or was displaying violent tendencies, violent tendencies which would be acceptable to think of if they were based in a christian direction. For example, in a christian society, if a kid said those fags are all going to burn in hell anyways in reference to gay people, it would be acceptable. However in an atheistic society, if a child displayed that kind of behavior towards ANYTHING, it would be a red flag.

That's where I believe religion indirectly promotes all of the horrible things done in its name.

Ok, I can better understand now where you're coming from. However, it is not the religion itself to blame if it happens to indirectly promote these horrible things. It is still up to the individual and the people with whom he associates to prevent this from happening. If he follows the Bible literally, he should look at those who don't and instead of wanting to destroy them, ask them questions as to why they don't share the same fervency.

He SHOULD yes. But if he has misinterpreted it from a young age since he was taught about religion before he was able to understand it, then the responsibility falls on the people who indoctrinated him to make him understand that he is wrong. They don't want to do this, because they believe his religious fervor is a good thing. That's a problem to me.

At 10/9/09 07:06 AM, FurryDemon wrote: So...whats there to talk about in this club? Whats the point? Is it to discuss atheism and be able to say things about religion that you can't say anywhere else or something?

Why don't you inconvenience yourself to read a page or two and find out yourself instead of trying to get us to tell you? Is that too much to ask?

At 10/9/09 04:24 PM, MultiCanimefan wrote:

At 10/9/09 07:00 AM, FC-Thun-Fan wrote:

At 10/8/09 09:41 PM, MultiCanimefan wrote:

Shouldn't god be kind?

He is

True, but, as long as these religions with their scriptures exist, harm will come from them.

It's not a place to argue about beliefs. It's a place for atheists to talk to each other about... Well ya know... Atheist stuff. It's just the same as you going to bible study or church or whatever. It's just being around people who think the same way you do. Nothing wrong with that now is there?

im sorry...
beside i dont go to bible study, and i HATE church. Yeah but I see what you mean. I should get outta here now.

At 10/13/09 09:10 PM, ph0ne wrote: I made a serious post and it got deleted. I must express my disappointment for the mods.

Mmhm.

At 10/13/09 09:13 PM, michelinman wrote:

At 10/13/09 09:10 PM, ph0ne wrote: I made a serious post and it got deleted. I must express my disappointment for the mods.

Mmhm.

Hahaha. Good one :).

At 10/13/09 09:20 PM, Nev wrote: Hahaha. Good one :).

I couldn't help myself. :P

I would like to join. Is there a sig banner yet? If not, I could make one.

At 10/14/09 06:56 AM, Nomad9590 wrote: I would like to join. Is there a sig banner yet? If not, I could make one.

If you want I should make one, P.M. me.

I've been thinking about a certain situation in which we all live with regards to religion and belief. Riddle me this:

If religion hadn't been as suppressing and violent as it has in history, and there were no extremists or a desire to shove your belief in everyone's face, would we have Atheists as adamant as Richard Dawkins and the Rational Response Squad?

In other words, if people believed in God and practiced religion but most followers weren't like they are now, would everyone still be calling believers delusional, stupid, hallucinatory, and people that just need to be "saved from irrational dogmas? Or would that be non-existent?

I don;t think there would be anti theists really, because then there wouldn't be any negatives about religion. Yet, as it stands, this is not the case. and this is not to say there wouldn't be atheists... just not militant ones.

Anti-Theist and athiest aren't the same thing are they?

Anti theist is saying that thiests are delusional , mad, etc (which they are not.)

And athiest's don't believe in God.

Am i Right?

At 10/16/09 12:43 PM, Joeyy957 wrote: Anti-Theist and athiest aren't the same thing are they?

Anti theist is saying that thiests are delusional , mad, etc (which they are not.)

And athiest's don't believe in God.

Am i Right?

No, quite frankly. One can be an atheist and not an anti-theist, and even vice versa. Anti-theism is being against the concept of religion, and Atheism is merely not believing in god. It's clear to see how one can be atheist and not anti-theist, but as for for being anti-theist and not atheist this one is admittedly rare. The only time it might happen, truly, is if someone considers themselves a "mystic" or something of the sort.
As for me, I'm both. How I'm atheist is self-explanatory, as for my being anti-theist, I only (somewhat) recently came to define myself as such. Let me put it this way: Religion would be great if there were gods actually talking to all of humanity. Some think it's great when some people completely give their lives up to god. But since there are no perfect, flawless beings actually guiding religions, that void is filled with people. People with their own bigotries, hatreds, and faults.
Religions provides a very powerful language for people to justify horrible acts, and it has been seen to happen throughout history, for as long as history has been recorded. And if you were a member of any other group tied to so much bigotry, hatred, racism, and sexism as is religion?... You would reside in protest. Because to do otherwise would be to play the role of an enabler, a mafia wife. One who sees what is going on and that is wrong, and grants legitimacy to the members of that group committing these acts.

This is what I've started posting in the threads that get created every day in General by people whoring out Christianity. I encourage you all to save this bitch. haha.

What up faith-cripples!

This is important for you to see.

At 10/17/09 09:53 PM, Zoraxe7 wrote: What up faith-cripples!

This is important for you to see.

You don't need Christianity or the Bible to believe in God. You don't need ANY religion or ANY "holy" scripture to believe in or find God. Religion tells you that you need these things, but you don't.