I'm very much against abortion for a few reasons. I don't think you should have sex (at least vaginal) until you're married. Therefore, if you don't want a baby, use protection. If that protection fails, if you're married, you keep the baby. If you're not married, then (in my opinion) having sex makes you responsible for the baby if the protection that you hopefully used fails. You can't just do something that was meant for reproduction simply for pleasure and try to skip out on the consequences. I know that a baby will ruin a teenager's life, but just put it up for adoption if nothing else.

Well if more people were to use protection then less abortions would happen this is commonly found in U.S.A and About billons of baby,kids,children die because of the lack of Protection even so protection is not good enough because it can tear or rip while in the process of what you are doing with your mate also teenage girls are very hard headed why would you have sexual intercourse with a person that you have been dating also you should not have Sexual intercourse until you are married and are prepared to take care of the child if you do not have the things to provide for it do not have sexual intercourse its as simple as that the point is if you dont want a baby then dont have sex

Jeebus Christ, periods and idents are your friend.

At 12/23/08 09:29 PM, Iceman579 wrote: Well if more people were to use protection then less abortions would happen

Well no shit Sherlock, now unfortunately most of the people who who get abortions aren't capable of thinking that far into the future.

this is commonly found in U.S.A and About billons of baby,kids,children die because of the lack of Protection

Billions? and how do they die due to the lack of protection?

even so protection is not good enough because it can tear or rip while in the process of what you are doing with your mate

That's why using multiple types of protections can slim down the chance to almost zero. Use the pill, spermicide, and a condom, and if that all fails, then you are either using them incorrectly, or have the worst luck.

also teenage girls are very hard headed why would you have sexual intercourse with a person that you have been dating

Huh?

also you should not have Sexual intercourse until you are married and are prepared to take care of the child

Normally, they should. However the question is that when the kids are failing to do this, should an abortion be allowed to prevent the prolonged suffering for both parties?

if you do not have the things to provide for it do not have sexual intercourse its as simple as that the point is if you dont want a baby then dont have sex

In an idealistic world, yes. However if you actually think that teenage kids will stop having sex, you might as well wish for a world without crime and poverty as well.

I'm going to drop my two cents now, If you think that the women who abort should die then prohibiting abortion is what you should support if you don't think that then you should support abortion being legal.
History has shown that prohibition of any action has never worked no matter how illegal an action is people will still do it, if forced to do it illegally women will put the lives in danger by having an abortion preformed by someone who is not licensed and has no regulatory system or review board watching them to worry about.

If you think abortion is immoral look at it this way the Greeks used to place there unwanted children on a hillside & leave them some would be picked up & sold as slaves but most would die from exposure, at least with the modern system the don't suffer (at least not as much as back then)

At 12/23/08 11:18 PM, kraor024 wrote: I'm going to drop my two cents now, If you think that the women who abort should die then prohibiting abortion is what you should support if you don't think that then you should support abortion being legal.

This is a fallacy of false dichotomy. There are plenty of people who sit in the gray area on this issue, even though abortion looks black-and-white on the surface.

History has shown that prohibition of any action has never worked no matter how illegal an action is people will still do it, if forced to do it illegally women will put the lives in danger by having an abortion preformed by someone who is not licensed and has no regulatory system or review board watching them to worry about.

If you think abortion is immoral look at it this way the Greeks used to place there unwanted children on a hillside & leave them some would be picked up & sold as slaves but most would die from exposure, at least with the modern system the don't suffer (at least not as much as back then)

That's not a very solid argument in favor of abortion legalization. People would still kill and steal even in the presence of legal sanctions against such acts, but that doesn't mean that a rational person would want murder and larceny laws dropped simply on account of their inability to prevent every last case of said crimes.

At 12/23/08 11:38 PM, dySWN wrote:

That's not a very solid argument in favor of abortion legalization. People would still kill and steal even in the presence of legal sanctions against such acts, but that doesn't mean that a rational person would want murder and larceny laws dropped simply on account of their inability to prevent every last case of said crimes.

Yeah I was expecting that argument but the point was that all you are doing by criminalizing that act is putting another persons life in danger (the mothers) Look at it this way it is illegal to steal but that does not mean you can rig a shotgun to your doorknob to prevent it. I see no reason to risk another life because you think that abortion is immoral, THAT is like killing every murderer and his brother to prevent murder, it may have limited success but that does not make it right.

At 12/23/08 11:58 PM, kraor024 wrote: Yeah I was expecting that argument but the point was that all you are doing by criminalizing that act is putting another persons life in danger (the mothers) Look at it this way it is illegal to steal but that does not mean you can rig a shotgun to your doorknob to prevent it. I see no reason to risk another life because you think that abortion is immoral, THAT is like killing every murderer and his brother to prevent murder, it may have limited success but that does not make it right.

I'm not seeing the analogy here. Besides, I was merely pointing out the flaws in your argument for abortion, not advancing an argument against it myself - I tend to argue these things from a different angle.

At 12/24/08 01:00 AM, dySWN wrote:

At 12/23/08 11:58 PM, kraor024 wrote:

I'm not seeing the analogy here. Besides, I was merely pointing out the flaws in your argument for abortion, not advancing an argument against it myself - I tend to argue these things from a different angle.

Ya I really don't have an easy way to explain it. However I should have mentioned one thing before

My aurgument is not people will do it anyway so let it be legal my aurgument is I would rather see the fetus die than the fetus & the mother, if a women gets an abortion illegally she will put her life at risk, & I would rather the mother not die. It really is that simple I would rather lose one life than two.

At 12/24/08 03:02 AM, kraor024 wrote: My aurgument is not people will do it anyway so let it be legal my aurgument is I would rather see the fetus die than the fetus & the mother, if a women gets an abortion illegally she will put her life at risk, & I would rather the mother not die. It really is that simple I would rather lose one life than two.

How is that different from saying that we should legalize heroin because a few people are willing to risk AIDS-infected needles to get their heroin fix even if it is illegal?

At 12/24/08 04:00 AM, dySWN wrote:
How is that different from saying that we should legalize heroin because a few people are willing to risk AIDS-infected needles to get their heroin fix even if it is illegal?

It isn't but you can guess my stance on that issue.

One thing though. To every guy who says that a girl slutty enough to get pregnant should bear full responsibility. I hope they keep their tool of destruction in there pants untill they are willing to be a dad themselves. It's easy to put all the blame on the girl and never on themselves.

Also, birth control is not always effective, condoms ripping, pill taking no effect,...

He is right, though, when he says that most people stand in a gray area about the issue. I will vote for it in most cases, although personally the idea of abortion does not sit well with me at all. There should be limitations to it as well.

I understand the arguments behind both cases, but overall I'd say the most fair way to go about it is to say that it is legal up to the end of the first trimester, and if you don't like abortion don't have one. Also, sex education should be taught more often in schools so that kids will be more likely to wear condoms, thus preventing the whole problem in the first place.

At 12/24/08 06:07 AM, RubberTrucky wrote: Also, birth control is not always effective, condoms ripping, pill taking no effect,...

I have never heard of pills not taking effect. Pills are actually very effective if taken correctly. It is if people skip days or forget when they might not work as they should.

Provide one example when the pill has not taken effect, please.

Tancrisism
You make some a very good point birth control should be used and our children should be educated about it, One thing I would like to see though is state sponsored birth control (no I do not mean eugenic like forced sterilization) But people should be able to get cheap/free birth control.

About birth control being effective it is over %99.9 effective but it has been known to fail before.

Just because I know some one is going to (has) mention adoption as an option You better adopt if you take that position & you better adopt and you better keep the kid till they are 18, I know too many people who have gone through (multiple) failed adoption(s), it just ruins them it's like they can not trust anyone or love anyone either it is just flat out sad.

At 12/24/08 06:49 AM, kraor024 wrote:
About birth control being effective it is over %99.9 effective but it has been known to fail before.

What's that mean exactly? Ot of 100 people who have sex while on the pill, 1 woman gets pregnant. So if you have sex 1000 times the chance of becoming pregnant is no longer neglectable. Each time you have sex on the pill, the chance of becoming pregnant
increases.

The pill was shown to be over %99.7 in one study I saw, that was after one year in a continuous monogamous relationship and yes each time you have sex the odds of getting pregnant increases (dumb ass) seriously how stupid are you to not be able to figure that one out.

At 12/24/08 07:11 AM, kraor024 wrote: seriously how stupid are you to not be able to figure that one out.

Wasn't that what I was saying? (modulo the fact that the test was done over a year)

Also, how easy is it to put a child up for adoption?
There should be people willing to adopt it, then these people shold be screened wether they're okay, then their probably has to be paid administration fees and the baby should be tested if it's okay and all.
You can get a kid with serious mental illnesses and be stuck to it for the rest of your life. :o

At 12/24/08 07:20 AM, RubberTrucky wrote:
Also, how easy is it to put a child up for adoption?
There should be people willing to adopt it, then these people shold be screened wether they're okay, then their probably has to be paid administration fees and the baby should be tested if it's okay and all.
You can get a kid with serious mental illnesses and be stuck to it for the rest of your life. :o

It is fairly easy to put a kid up for adoption it can be pretty difficult to actually adopt depending on the local adoption laws.
As for people willing to adopt once again it can be very difficult to adopt (the easiest way is to actually adopt from the birth mother and skip the state)& a lot of people adopt then realize it is much more difficult than they thought to take care of a kid and send 'em right back.
Also a kid being tested to make sure it is okay sounds to me like you think that the children who need the most help should be raised by the state.
And as for the last part I don't get your point are you saying that if you get a kid with a mental illness you should just send them back to the state, because that sounds pretty fuct up to me.

I personally agree with the author but it's an interesting debate. For example, let's look at the three natural rights that humans have by natural right according to John Locke: Life, Liberty, and Property. While you can say that the child has it's natural right to life, what if the pregnancy/birthing process endangers the mothers life? Or you can say that it is the mothers liberty to choose but does her right to liberty trump the child's right to life? However you look at it, there are going to be a lot of people pissed off no matter what is proposed/decided.

At 12/24/08 07:04 AM, RubberTrucky wrote:

At 12/24/08 06:49 AM, kraor024 wrote:
About birth control being effective it is over %99.9 effective but it has been known to fail before.

What's that mean exactly? Ot of 100 people who have sex while on the pill, 1 woman gets pregnant. So if you have sex 1000 times the chance of becoming pregnant is no longer neglectable. Each time you have sex on the pill, the chance of becoming pregnant
increases.

That's why it's good to use a variety of preventitive measures, like the pill and a condom COMBINED.

At 12/24/08 07:11 AM, kraor024 wrote: The pill was shown to be over %99.7 in one study I saw,

So you get pregnant after 333 times on average. O.o

that was after one year in a continuous monogamous relationship

So a one year monogamous relationship has sex about 333 times? I need to get a girlfriend like that. =P

and yes each time you have sex the odds of getting pregnant increases (dumb ass)

Looks like someone doesn't understand basic odds. You see, the odds of you geting pregnant your 1st time is the same as the odds of getting pregnant the 3.8 x 10^45 time. Seriously, learn some fucking maths.

seriously how stupid are you to not be able to figure that one out.

Seriously, how stupid are you to not understand how the likelyhood for something to happen at any given time is completely seperate from what happened before?

I'm pretty much pro-choice.

Is it really anyone's fucking business if a woman aborts or not? Women abort for personal reasons, and they really shouldn't be judged for those reasons.

The whole "Adoption" argument is critical, because not every child gets adopted. A lot of kids spend their entire childhood in an adoption house because no one wanted to adopt them. All the sudden, they turn 18 and they're thrown onto the streets with no education to speak of and they pretty much die. Is that fair? No it isn't.

Also, human life as a punishment?! And here you are thinking abortion itself is inhumane. Forcing a woman to go through with labor is probably some of the most despicable things you can do to a human. Also, children should not be used as punishment for having sex at all. Again, is it really that fair? So if say a woman is on as many birth control methods as possible and all the sudden she gets pregnant, should she be punished? I love how some of you assume that everyone who gets abortions are automatically sluts/whores/stupid people.

And yes, it is HER body and she can do what she wants with it. Does it really affect you that much if she aborts the unwanted child? And no, most women are not in the least sorry if they did it. So don't give me the whole "You'll regret it" speech, they're just exagerrated details. And again, its her business, not yours.

"But you just killed Einstein/Beethoven/Martin Luther King Jr!"

And you also just killed Hitler/Stalin/Hussein. This argument is laughably invalid because we don't know what the fuck it could've become.

I believe a woman should have a right to control her own body.

And ps: No uterus, no say.

At 12/24/08 02:25 PM, Another-User wrote:
Looks like someone doesn't understand basic odds. You see, the odds of you geting pregnant your 1st time is the same as the odds of getting pregnant the 3.8 x 10^45 time. Seriously, learn some fucking maths.

You're getting that wrong. If you were to flip a coin and get shot if it's heads and get $25 if it's tails, you would refuse (I assume).
But if you were proposed to flip the coin repeatedly in one hour and you get shot when in that hour no tails has come up, and paid $25, there's no reason statistical, to avoid that challenge.
Each seperate time the chance of getting pregnant is roughly the same (biological effects of having sex a lot and time of the month excluded), but the chance that pregnancy occured in the amount of several acts of sex commited increases of course.

At 12/24/08 02:25 PM, Another-User wrote:

At 12/24/08 07:11 AM, kraor024 wrote:

......

Looks like someone doesn't understand basic odds. You see, the odds of you geting pregnant your 1st time is the same as the odds of getting pregnant the 3.8 x 10^45 time. Seriously, learn some fucking maths.

seriously how stupid are you to not be able to figure that one out.

Seriously, how stupid are you to not understand how the likelyhood for something to happen at any given time is completely seperate from what happened before?

How stupid are you that the odds of an event happening increase with the more you have sex if you honestly don't believe me the zeroth time you have sex the odds are impossible , yes the fist time the odds are the same as the X time but you are talking about a single event not when these events are compiled together so yes the more you have sex the more likely you are to get pregnant don't try and say I don't know math because you want to quote mine and take something in completely different than it was meant (ASSHOLE)