At 9/8/08 08:58 PM, Rockthebestmusic wrote: Is a fetus genetically different before birth than after birth? And what are the exact biological differences before and after childbirth? i Know enough basic facts but nothing to validate any VAST difference that would make the fetus any less human (Of course what truly defines a human from something that is not human?). Please provide a link if possible.

Ok so youve come to the conclusions fetuses are human. How about when its just two cells, the egg and the sperm cells. Like several minutes after 'first contact'. Does that count as human just because it has the same genes as an adult?

And maybe you think as soon as the sperm and egg touches, then technically its still a human just a very early one, but then is it so wrong to kill 2 cells? Whether they are technically human or not they cant feel or think.

At 9/7/08 03:44 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote: I'm sure your brother in the coma wishes he had been aborted instead.

No but I'm sure you wish that since you are in such pain you feel the need to make fun on somone who can't defend themselves, you insignificant fool.
Go jerk off to som epictures of a monkey.

At 9/9/08 02:29 AM, CaiWengi wrote:

Ok so youve come to the conclusions fetuses are human. How about when its just two cells, the egg and the sperm cells. Like several minutes after 'first contact'. Does that count as human just because it has the same genes as an adult?

When the two reproductive cells combine to make one seperate strande od DNA meaning the mother's immune system will try to kill it, yes that means it is a completely different person, not apart of it's mother, whats fasinating is how the fertilized egg send out chemicals to stop the immune system from killing it n tells it's surrounding to care for it.

And maybe you think as soon as the sperm and egg touches, then technically its still a human just a very early one, but then is it so wrong to kill 2 cells? Whether they are technically human or not they cant feel or think.

No, the two cells are nothing more than that person's cell, the egg cell dies anyway through a womans period and the male's die from normal reasons but is ok because so many er produced and many more reasons.
Like I said before, remember it, when the two cells combine, it is a person, not two cells, it is a seperate piece of DNA, different from both the sperm and egg cell it began as.

At 9/9/08 03:08 AM, Shaggytheclown17 wrote: Go jerk off to som epictures of a monkey.

hey man don't talk about your mother like that.

Abortion is fine but they need to lower the months that you can have it really, seen alot of stuff about it and even what some 14-20 week old babies look like(not very pleasent)

No excuse to wait 4 months before you even decide if you want it or not to be honest.

Or how about we just fasten kids with collars that will shock the hell out of them if they ever try to engage in a sexual act, is that any good?

Thing is that abortion should be something to be used as a last option on the loooong list of options, doctors should deny people who just had sex at the wrong time or people who just want to get back at the father, anything short of saving the mother or child's life should they preform a fatal act on either one.

So lets all just blame the stupid kids who think having sex at a young age is cool, up with shock collars and forced birth control 8P

I believe anyone under 18 SHOULDN'T be allowed to have an abortion.
It serves them right for being stupid enough to get pregnant.
'he took advantage of me, i was drunk'-solution, DONT GET DRUNK AT PARTIES!
'not my fault, he wasnt wearing a condom'-solution, CHECK AND ASK FIRST IF HE'S WEARING ONE!

Whats with all these people who think it's bad to want to have sex?

At 9/9/08 08:36 AM, Shaggytheclown17 wrote: Or how about we just fasten kids with collars that will shock the hell out of them if they ever try to engage in a sexual act, is that any good?

yeah let's totally control what they do to and with their own body.

Oh man I love the freedom they advocate in America.

At 9/9/08 03:42 PM, fohn-jarmery wrote: I believe anyone under 18 SHOULDN'T be allowed to have an abortion.
It serves them right for being stupid enough to get pregnant.

You make NO sense.

You: Omfg these kids are so stupid for getting pregnant wah wah wah.
Oh and also I believe that these stupid people should be forced to bring their inevitably stupid children into this already over-populated world.

At 9/9/08 02:29 AM, CaiWengi wrote:

At 9/8/08 08:58 PM, Rockthebestmusic wrote:

And maybe you think as soon as the sperm and egg touches, then technically its still a human just a very early one, but then is it so wrong to kill 2 cells? Whether they are technically human or not they cant feel or think.

Its not that you are killing the two cells, you can kill far more by simply scratching yourself, what's important is that those two cells are an individual organism that has the human genetic structure therefore you are killing a human, albeit an early one. Assuming of course that you consider an organism with a human genetic structure to be human.

At 9/8/08 08:58 PM, Rockthebestmusic wrote:

At 9/8/08 07:07 PM, Saruman200 wrote:

WELL babies and FETUSES are very different biologically. IF you had SPENT the TIME reading up ON the SUBJECT instead of wasting TIME deciding WHAT words to capitalize AND what WORDS not to, you might not have COME off as so IGNORANT. This isn't ALL about AMERICA, there ARE other COUNTRIES too. FETUSES and BABIES are COMPLETELY different. ANYONE over 13 knows THAT. When YOUR old enough to TAKE SEX ED, you MIGHT UNDERSTAND. YOU clearly don't KNOW ANYTHING about science, so WHY bother pretending YOU know what your TALKING about?

Is a fetus genetically different before birth than after birth? And what are the exact biological differences before and after childbirth? i Know enough basic facts but nothing to validate any VAST difference that would make the fetus any less human (Of course what truly defines a human from something that is not human?). Please provide a link if possible.

First off, the fetus stage is between the 11th and 40th weeks of pregnancy. A lot happens over that time, so could you first specify how long before childbirth you mean. The fetus is only fully ready for life oustide the uterus at about the 35th week. Birth usually happens around the 38th-40th week. During the 11th, at the beginning of fetal development, lungs are not fully developed, but breathing motion is present (for the purpose of lung development). Brain, heart, hands, feet, and other organs arn't developed either, though they are there. The fetus can't feel any pain at this point. I won't be able to feel pain until the third trimester. Toenails, hair, etc., develop during the fetal stage.
This is an excellent page that shows everything that happens in each week. The thing is, what do we consider "humanity". I would think that humanity is when a creature has conscience, self-awareness, communicative skills, and critical thinking. None of this appears until the third trimester, hence why personally, I only believe in abortions during the second and first trimesters. However, I object to any kind of abortion law due to the dispute. Some people don't hold the same views on when a fetus is "human" as I do, so I don't believe there should be any law against aboriton, even in the third trimester. That's pretty much just forcing my viewpoint on others, and I don't agree with that, hence why I'm "pro-choice".

At 9/9/08 06:59 PM, Rockthebestmusic wrote:

At 9/9/08 02:29 AM, CaiWengi wrote:

At 9/8/08 08:58 PM, Rockthebestmusic wrote:

And maybe you think as soon as the sperm and egg touches, then technically its still a human just a very early one, but then is it so wrong to kill 2 cells? Whether they are technically human or not they cant feel or think.

Its not that you are killing the two cells, you can kill far more by simply scratching yourself, what's important is that those two cells are an individual organism that has the human genetic structure therefore you are killing a human, albeit an early one. Assuming of course that you consider an organism with a human genetic structure to be human.

Well, I would consider some form of thought to be "human". I mean, a fetus/embreyo/zygote during the first and second trimesters has hardly any sentinence whatsoever, and is biologically little more complex than a fly. I don't consider it "killing" if it isn't even sentinent. We might as well make stepping on the grass a crime then, or swatting a fly...

At 9/9/08 07:09 PM, Saruman200 wrote:

At 9/8/08 08:58 PM, Rockthebestmusic wrote:

At 9/8/08 07:07 PM, Saruman200 wrote:

First off, the fetus stage is between the 11th and 40th weeks of pregnancy. A lot happens over that time, so could you first specify how long before childbirth you mean. The fetus is only fully ready for life oustide the uterus at about the 35th week. Birth usually happens around the 38th-40th week. During the 11th, at the beginning of fetal development, lungs are not fully developed, but breathing motion is present (for the purpose of lung development). Brain, heart, hands, feet, and other organs arn't developed either, though they are there. The fetus can't feel any pain at this point. I won't be able to feel pain until the third trimester. Toenails, hair, etc., develop during the fetal stage.
This is an excellent page that shows everything that happens in each week. The thing is, what do we consider "humanity". I would think that humanity is when a creature has conscience, self-awareness, communicative skills, and critical thinking. None of this appears until the third trimester, hence why personally, I only believe in abortions during the second and first trimesters. However, I object to any kind of abortion law due to the dispute. Some people don't hold the same views on when a fetus is "human" as I do, so I don't believe there should be any law against aboriton, even in the third trimester. That's pretty much just forcing my viewpoint on others, and I don't agree with that, hence why I'm "pro-choice".

Thanks that was quite informative but your definition of humanity is somewhat flawed. What about people who are born with or develop diseases which impair their communicative skills and the like? Are they no longer human? And by the way i appreciate that you didn't fly off into an emotional rant like people commonly do on these subjects.

Abortion is murder.

Think of it this way, if you decided to do nothing, there'd be a human right there. There is no difference in birthing a baby and throwing it out the window and abortion. I don't think ANYONE has the right decide whether someone else should live. Whether it has a negative on you or it, let the child become suicidal or some shit but don't kill the baby for your own selfish reasons. The fact that my life was just a choice away from death scares me, I don't want to see millions of potential lives killed daily.

and no one should bring up the sperm and egg arguement; one without the other doesn't make a baby, so masturbation isn't murder, without masturbating they'd die anyways. Zygotes, are life, and they have the right to survive.

At 9/9/08 07:21 PM, Rockthebestmusic wrote:

At 9/9/08 07:09 PM, Saruman200 wrote:

At 9/8/08 08:58 PM, Rockthebestmusic wrote:

At 9/8/08 07:07 PM, Saruman200 wrote:

First off, the fetus stage is between the 11th and 40th weeks of pregnancy. A lot happens over that time, so could you first specify how long before childbirth you mean. The fetus is only fully ready for life oustide the uterus at about the 35th week. Birth usually happens around the 38th-40th week. During the 11th, at the beginning of fetal development, lungs are not fully developed, but breathing motion is present (for the purpose of lung development). Brain, heart, hands, feet, and other organs arn't developed either, though they are there. The fetus can't feel any pain at this point. I won't be able to feel pain until the third trimester. Toenails, hair, etc., develop during the fetal stage.
This is an excellent page that shows everything that happens in each week. The thing is, what do we consider "humanity". I would think that humanity is when a creature has conscience, self-awareness, communicative skills, and critical thinking. None of this appears until the third trimester, hence why personally, I only believe in abortions during the second and first trimesters. However, I object to any kind of abortion law due to the dispute. Some people don't hold the same views on when a fetus is "human" as I do, so I don't believe there should be any law against aboriton, even in the third trimester. That's pretty much just forcing my viewpoint on others, and I don't agree with that, hence why I'm "pro-choice".

Thanks that was quite informative but your definition of humanity is somewhat flawed. What about people who are born with or develop diseases which impair their communicative skills and the like? Are they no longer human? And by the way i appreciate that you didn't fly off into an emotional rant like people commonly do on these subjects.

Hmm, having impaired communicative skills and not having communicative skills are different. Even mutes have communicative skills. Communicative skills arn't nessicarily being able to talk. As long as they are able to try, even if unsuccesfuly demonstrate what they want or need, they ahve communicative skills. I personally (this isn't definition, this is personal view) would consider people who are able in their mind to want to ask for something or talk, even there is absolutely no way they can communicate physically. The fact is though, the fetuses (non-third trimester) are incabable of even "thinking". Also, I support euthenazia for those who are so impaired, genetic or otherwhise, that they are unable to use basic functions of mind and body. This is very rare however. Even those with Alzheimer's have some basic functions. Those that don't, the "vegetables", I support euthenazia for.

Fair enough, both of our opinions rely heavily on the gray area of what a human "is".

At 9/9/08 07:49 PM, Saruman200 wrote:

At 9/9/08 07:21 PM, Rockthebestmusic wrote:

At 9/9/08 07:09 PM, Saruman200 wrote:

At 9/8/08 08:58 PM, Rockthebestmusic wrote:

At 9/8/08 07:07 PM, Saruman200 wrote:

First off, the fetus stage is between the 11th and 40th weeks of pregnancy. A lot happens over that time, so could you first specify how long before childbirth you mean. The fetus is only fully ready for life oustide the uterus at about the 35th week. Birth usually happens around the 38th-40th week. During the 11th, at the beginning of fetal development, lungs are not fully developed, but breathing motion is present (for the purpose of lung development). Brain, heart, hands, feet, and other organs arn't developed either, though they are there. The fetus can't feel any pain at this point. I won't be able to feel pain until the third trimester. Toenails, hair, etc., develop during the fetal stage.
This is an excellent page that shows everything that happens in each week. The thing is, what do we consider "humanity". I would think that humanity is when a creature has conscience, self-awareness, communicative skills, and critical thinking. None of this appears until the third trimester, hence why personally, I only believe in abortions during the second and first trimesters. However, I object to any kind of abortion law due to the dispute. Some people don't hold the same views on when a fetus is "human" as I do, so I don't believe there should be any law against aboriton, even in the third trimester. That's pretty much just forcing my viewpoint on others, and I don't agree with that, hence why I'm "pro-choice".

Thanks that was quite informative but your definition of humanity is somewhat flawed. What about people who are born with or develop diseases which impair their communicative skills and the like? Are they no longer human? And by the way i appreciate that you didn't fly off into an emotional rant like people commonly do on these subjects.

Hmm, having impaired communicative skills and not having communicative skills are different. Even mutes have communicative skills. Communicative skills arn't nessicarily being able to talk. As long as they are able to try, even if unsuccesfuly demonstrate what they want or need, they ahve communicative skills. I personally (this isn't definition, this is personal view) would consider people who are able in their mind to want to ask for something or talk, even there is absolutely no way they can communicate physically. The fact is though, the fetuses (non-third trimester) are incabable of even "thinking". Also, I support euthenazia for those who are so impaired, genetic or otherwhise, that they are unable to use basic functions of mind and body. This is very rare however. Even those with Alzheimer's have some basic functions. Those that don't, the "vegetables", I support euthenazia for.

But they WILL be able to think. But a person decides "Hey! I don't want them to live, so no life for them!" and then ends it right there. What you guys are saying makes no sense. Thats like saying killing a person in their sleep is not wrong because they can't "think" while they are sleeping. Human life is human life and if that fetus is going to be a human, for you to stop it is straight up murder.

Its a selfish choice where someone other than that person decides whether that life is worthy of living. That makes no sense. If anything I should have the say in what happens in my own life. Just because my creator was a slut or was just a bitch, doesn't mean I should die because of it. Its no one elses choice of what to do with your life.

At 9/9/08 08:24 PM, Frattochino wrote:
But they WILL be able to think. But a person decides "Hey! I don't want them to live, so no life for them!" and then ends it right there. What you guys are saying makes no sense. Thats like saying killing a person in their sleep is not wrong because they can't "think" while they are sleeping. Human life is human life and if that fetus is going to be a human, for you to stop it is straight up murder.

Lol, sleeping and being incabable of thought is very different. How is killing something that isn't even alive murder. No one cries when they eat eggs, guess what, the egg could of been a baby chick! You heartless fiend!

Its a selfish choice where someone other than that person decides whether that life is worthy of living. That makes no sense. If anything I should have the say in what happens in my own life. Just because my creator was a slut or was just a bitch, doesn't mean I should die because of it. Its no one elses choice of what to do with your life.

Don't judge someone you don't even know. How you decided that the people that get abortions are sluts or bitches is beyond me. Your the one being selfish, by saying "Oh, I believe an abortion is murder. But it's not okay for me to believe that and encourage people around me to not get an abortion, oh no, I have to force my beliefs on others who don't nessicarily agree that a fetus is even alive, and thus getting rid of it is not murder, but I don't give a fuck what they think, they shouldn't be able to do it because it's my personal opinion, and I'm better then them. After all, they're all sluts."

At 9/9/08 08:31 PM, Saruman200 wrote:

At 9/9/08 08:24 PM, Frattochino wrote:
But they WILL be able to think. But a person decides "Hey! I don't want them to live, so no life for them!" and then ends it right there. What you guys are saying makes no sense. Thats like saying killing a person in their sleep is not wrong because they can't "think" while they are sleeping. Human life is human life and if that fetus is going to be a human, for you to stop it is straight up murder.

Lol, sleeping and being incabable of thought is very different. How is killing something that isn't even alive murder. No one cries when they eat eggs, guess what, the egg could of been a baby chick! You heartless fiend!

Its a selfish choice where someone other than that person decides whether that life is worthy of living. That makes no sense. If anything I should have the say in what happens in my own life. Just because my creator was a slut or was just a bitch, doesn't mean I should die because of it. Its no one elses choice of what to do with your life.

Don't judge someone you don't even know. How you decided that the people that get abortions are sluts or bitches is beyond me. Your the one being selfish, by saying "Oh, I believe an abortion is murder. But it's not okay for me to believe that and encourage people around me to not get an abortion, oh no, I have to force my beliefs on others who don't nessicarily agree that a fetus is even alive, and thus getting rid of it is not murder, but I don't give a fuck what they think, they shouldn't be able to do it because it's my personal opinion, and I'm better then them. After all, they're all sluts."

No I'm not saying they are all sluts. I was saying If my mom is a slut and she gets pregnant, is it my fault? Why do I have to die? People have different reasons. If its Rape, that still doesn't mean shit because sure they got raped but if i was conceived of rape, I wouldn't commit suicide at the knowledge of that, so why kill me because of that?

I'm not saying we shouldn't have abortion because of my beliefs, I'm saying we shouldn't have abortion because they are killing people who don't have a choice. A egg won't turn into a human, its a chicken. We eat animals daily so that has nothing to do with the conversation, human life is precious, and just because they don't think at early stages doesn't discount them. Actually its not like a living, breathing baby is any different, they can barely talk or keep their memory for long. its not like they could say no, or survive on their own and its not like they'd even feel the pain. They can't even comprehend the idea of death! So lets raise the bar up and start abortions limits at around 2 years!

Its not about what qualifies as a thoughtful human being, and stopping the life before it, its about the fact that the being will become a human and taking away a human life is murder.

At 9/9/08 09:01 PM, Frattochino wrote:
No I'm not saying they are all sluts. I was saying If my mom is a slut and she gets pregnant, is it my fault? Why do I have to die? People have different reasons. If its Rape, that still doesn't mean shit because sure they got raped but if i was conceived of rape, I wouldn't commit suicide at the knowledge of that, so why kill me because of that?

Uh you kinda did suggest that. "Just because my creator was a slut or a bitch, doesn't mean I should die because of it." And your not dieing. You haven't even had a chance to live, your not crying about it. Fetuses don't even feel pain till the third trimester, and have no form of true thought. The fetus doesn't give a fuck. And I don't care what it could become. The fact is, it hasn't experienced anything, it's arguably not even alive, no one is gonna miss it, it's is biologically little more complex than a fly, and has no form of thought or perception of pain. "Oh but Saruman, it could become a human!" Well that's just fantastic, but it's not a human yet, so stay out of the mom's uterus. Her body, her choice. You argue that you wouldn't commit suicide. Well that's just great, but others would. Not to mention, how do you know that you wouldn't. You have no idea what it's like to be a child of rape, so don't assume that you wouldn't commit suicide. I still don't understand whenever or not you would commit suicide matters in this argument either, but whatever.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have abortion because of my beliefs, I'm saying we shouldn't have abortion because they are killing people who don't have a choice. A egg won't turn into a human, its a chicken. We eat animals daily so that has nothing to do with the conversation, human life is precious, and just because they don't think at early stages doesn't discount them. Actually its not like a living, breathing baby is any different, they can barely talk or keep their memory for long. its not like they could say no, or survive on their own and its not like they'd even feel the pain. They can't even comprehend the idea of death! So lets raise the bar up and start abortions limits at around 2 years!

The first 2 sentances contradict. You say your not trying to say we shouldn't have a abortion, but in the next point you demonstrate an arguable opinion. "killing people who don't have a choice". Well, I don't think fetuses are people, so there you go, your forcing your opinion that aborting a fetus is killing a person on me. Next you argue through another personal opinion: that human life is more precious than that on animals. But vegetarians make up a greater percent of the population than those who believe abortion should be illegal even in cases or rape or incest, such as you. Thus, a law making it illegal to eat eggs is as logical as a law to ban abortion. Next, you state that babies arn't different than fetuses. But babies can think. They can communicate. "Ooo goo gaga" that communication. They can think and learn, hence why babies learn how to speak and walk. And babies feel pain...they cry when they get hurt, fetuses do not even feel pain, because their nervous system isn't functional yet.

Its not about what qualifies as a thoughtful human being, and stopping the life before it, its about the fact that the being will become a human and taking away a human life is murder.

But aborting a fetus isn't getting rid of human life. A fetus has no life. It's not a person. And I don't care what it could become, that's irrelevant. If a fetus is aborted, it'll never have lived. Never felt pain.

Its fact that a fetus is a human life. Just because it isn't a walking, talking adult doesn't mean squat. Thats like saying a baby isn't life because they can't do the stuff that we do or a child isn't life either. Humans are humans, fetal stage or adult stage. Thats a fact.

iam a neutral
abrotion ok under these:
rape victoms
under 16 years old
danger to mother
NOT ok if it is :
not able to take care of it
forgot to use protection
that what i think.

At 9/9/08 10:18 PM, Frattochino wrote: Its fact that a fetus is a human life. Just because it isn't a walking, talking adult doesn't mean squat. Thats like saying a baby isn't life because they can't do the stuff that we do or a child isn't life either. Humans are humans, fetal stage or adult stage. Thats a fact.

No, it isn't. It depends on what your defination of human life is. While a fetus is biologically a human, "life" and whenver or not it is a "person" is subjective. Babies can do stuff we do...babies have the same mental functions we adults do, but they just haven't filled there's up with knowledge yet. Fetuses however, don't feel pain, don't think, and don't live. But that is pointless when you look at the my main. The very fact that we are able to have this argument means that a law against abortion would be illegal and undemocratic, considering not everyone agrees when life begins.

yeah thats a fun question when does life begin, Because it effects the view of when life ends.

Aborition is the right of a woman. No one can tell her what to do with her own body or whatever is in it until that thing comes out. If you dont feel capable of bringing anonther human being into this world then you shouldn't. We are having a population, poverty, and hunger crisis as is. And if it is murder that is that woman and the father's own problem. they will have to appear before god with their sins layed out before them. Who are we to try and prevent them from damnation.

At 9/11/08 11:07 PM, Nitroglys wrote: Aborition is the right of a woman. No one can tell her what to do with her own body or whatever is in it until that thing comes out. If you dont feel capable of bringing anonther human being into this world then you shouldn't. We are having a population, poverty, and hunger crisis as is. And if it is murder that is that woman and the father's own problem. they will have to appear before god with their sins layed out before them. Who are we to try and prevent them from damnation.

while i disagree that the fetus is entirely a part of the women's body (it's a unique life BUT depedent on the mother) your last sentence has a very interesting question...Who ARE we to try and prevent them from damnation?

At 9/17/08 11:23 PM, Rockthebestmusic wrote: Who ARE we to try and prevent them from damnation?

Humans? Isn't the whole preachy-thing about saving other people from damnation?

At 9/18/08 05:35 PM, Sajberhippien wrote:

At 9/17/08 11:23 PM, Rockthebestmusic wrote: Who ARE we to try and prevent them from damnation?

Humans? Isn't the whole preachy-thing about saving other people from damnation?

You are right, because they worded it wrong.

Who are we to FORCE them into avoid damnation?

Though, who are we to take a life of another for our own personal benefits?

Ohh lets not get all "This hunk of flesh in me is a magical...." Just not. There are too many people on the planet and just adding more is helping destroy the future for mankind.

Many so called "worthless rightless" animals have infinitely more intelligence than a hunk of baby flesh. USA is a most paradoxical land, Most Americans are women because so many men are sent to slaugther through wars, the death penalty and poor education that leads to an unhealthy life, i.e, being grossly fat. Its a joke to concentrate on such a tiny matter as trying to force women to have more kids when there are stupid wars, the people who are alive can be homeless and on the streets and nobody gives a damn but if some poor woman gets pregnant then she must give birth to the baby right? even if the mother can't provide for it right?

At 9/18/08 06:39 PM, WARTORIOUS wrote: Ohh lets not get all "This hunk of flesh in me is a magical...." Just not. There are too many people on the planet and just adding more is helping destroy the future for mankind.

Many so called "worthless rightless" animals have infinitely more intelligence than a hunk of baby flesh. USA is a most paradoxical land, Most Americans are women because so many men are sent to slaugther through wars, the death penalty and poor education that leads to an unhealthy life, i.e, being grossly fat. Its a joke to concentrate on such a tiny matter as trying to force women to have more kids when there are stupid wars, the people who are alive can be homeless and on the streets and nobody gives a damn but if some poor woman gets pregnant then she must give birth to the baby right? even if the mother can't provide for it right?

First off if there is such a dramatic population problem why don't we all just stop having children (sarcasm)......Also as far as intelligent animals vs. babies goes what about people with mental diseases, the elderly etc. that are considered useless burdens to society? should we kill them all too? Most Americans are women, well take a look at this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou ntries_by_sex_ratio for the United states alone the total male/female ratio is 0.97. That really isn't such a dramatic difference. Poor education leaving to an unhealty life? Well farmers of the past were pretty damn stupid and a lot of them weren't grotesquely fat. It has nothing to do with forcing women to have children its more of a Basic human ethics question; should a fetus/embryo etc. have the same right to life as a newborn baby.