A major dispute between the two presidential candidates is abortion. I personaly believe that abortion is murder, and that it should not be inlawed except for a few obvious resons.
1. rape or incest

2.danger to mother or childs life.

Most abortions are done just because the woman decided to have sex with a guy and now she's pregnant, everyone has a right to life even the recently fertilized fetus will develope into a functioning human

thanks for not being judgemental and, I completely forgot to mention the whole adoption thing (I was rushed) however giving them the choice is what causes the problem, since 2000 over a million people in the U.S. alone have been killed by doctors, I'm just saying we need more limits.

This is a touchy topic because there are two clear moral sides to it: does teenage stupidity warrant a domestic prison sentence and having their youth flushed down the toilet? At the same time, does abortion make stupid sex "ok?" It is a tad scary hearing some girls talk about it on my dorm floor. "If I get pregs, I can just go to a doctor and get it vacuumed out, so who cares?" I am a tad conservative in my values in regards to not being a total slut, but at the same time, who am I to tell you or whomever when and when not to get laid?

Touchy topic, I can't make up my mind on this.

i'm all for choosing and wemon's lib, but you know, i really don't think that a woman should be able to hire a man to, you know, mutilate a baby.

It all depends on when the abortion takes place. If the pregnancy is discovered during the very first weeks and the baby is unwanted, then abortion is no loss. Most first trimester pregnancies are probably acceptable. Most third trimester pregnancies probably aren't, unless there's something very fucked up going on.

However, it's ludicrous to pretend that when the egg cell is fertilized, it immediately receives a "soul". It's no better than saying "every sperm is sacred".

I'd like to add that no one supports abortion as a standard measure of contraception, nor does anyone think that abortion is a happy family event that women should take lightly.

At 9/4/08 03:42 AM, SynicalSatire wrote: A major dispute between the two presidential candidates is abortion.

WOW what an interesting topic.
To bad it's been done here several dozen times.
I personally wish you could buy an abortion tool, it would look like a vibrator.
She just puts the spermicide/vinegar duche pack into the device ,insert it gently up into herself...its then self guided & it slips a thin tube up into the Uterous , which then spins thousands of fine momofilament lines against the walls of the Uterous. While doing this it allows the douch of spermicide & vinegar to 'cleanse' her & VOILA... the jobs done, at home, in your bathroom...very little muss & absolutely no fuss.

Can you guess which side of the debate I'm on ?

My opinion for abortion stays fairly neutral.

However what pisses me off is pro-choicers and pro-lifers always argue and never try to discover a solution that benifits all.

I'm kinda on the fence about abortion. What really disgusts me is late term abortions or women who get multiple abortions.

I think that abortion should be an option in these cases:
Incest
Rape
Danger to the Mother

I think abortion might be allowed under these circumstances (limit of one):
Mother under 17
Inability to afford a child

So whats the solution? I think that the SHOULD category should allow abortion as an option.

I think for the rest of cases that incentives should be given to encourage the mother and help her to put the baby up for adoption. The adoption process should be cheaper. Why should babies be killed, while infertile couples wait years to finally have children of there own?

What do you guys think?

At 9/4/08 05:27 AM, S-W-A-R-M-generation wrote: This is a touchy topic because there are two clear moral sides to it: does teenage stupidity warrant a domestic prison sentence and having their youth flushed down the toilet? At the same time, does abortion make stupid sex "ok?" It is a tad scary hearing some girls talk about it on my dorm floor. "If I get pregs, I can just go to a doctor and get it vacuumed out, so who cares?" I am a tad conservative in my values in regards to not being a total slut, but at the same time, who am I to tell you or whomever when and when not to get laid?

Get laid whenever you want but use protection! It is widely available, so there is no excuse. If people choose not to use protection, therefore making a stupid decision, they deserve to suffer the consequences and therefore learn from there mistakes.

At 9/4/08 06:31 PM, Chavic wrote: Get laid whenever you want but use protection! It is widely available, so there is no excuse.

Phew, lucky that contraception works 100% of the time and never fails.

Well.... you kill about as many cells with an (early) abortion as you do by slapping someone. I think the mother should have the right to choose, but I actually have to agree with the thing you said about OnLY if it's rape or endangering the mother, because if it was her fault she (and the father) should take responsibility.

Kids are fucking. They always have fucked, and they always will. More than often without contraception, which leads to gestation situations around the globe. I like to compare unborn babies to cockroaches. They feel pain when they're squished, but most likely can't comprehend anything beyond the fact that they're in pain. I feel no moral qualms about abortion. They put erasers on pencils for a reason.

At 9/4/08 06:32 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote:

At 9/4/08 06:31 PM, Chavic wrote: Get laid whenever you want but use protection! It is widely available, so there is no excuse.

Phew, lucky that contraception works 100% of the time and never fails.

Shit! You beat me to it.

Have sex more but don't have an abortion. Yeah, that works.

At 9/4/08 06:32 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote:

At 9/4/08 06:31 PM, Chavic wrote: Get laid whenever you want but use protection! It is widely available, so there is no excuse.

Phew, lucky that contraception works 100% of the time and never fails.

If used properly, or even more responsibly, used combined (condoms AND the pill) it's effectiveness is over 99%. This would prevent the vast majority of unwanted pregnancy.

The truth is that if you have sex, you risk having a kid.
If you don't want to get pregnant, don't have sex
(see me previous post on accepting responsibility)

You realise, alot of abortions are done when the baby is in a very very early stage.

Ever killed a fly? Maybe a spider? A much more developed form of life.

And now you say but it would turn into a baby, and eventually an adult! But, if you agree with that, how can you justify the use of condoms or any kind of birth control at all?

And I think its ridiculous for people who have never been in a situation such as been raped or whatever to comment on if abortion is right or not.

At 9/4/08 07:34 PM, CaiWengi wrote: And now you say but it would turn into a baby, and eventually an adult! But, if you agree with that, how can you justify the use of condoms or any kind of birth control at all?

Birthcontrol doesn't kill a human while its growing. Sperm or an egg by itself isn't a person, but an embryo is.

And I think its ridiculous for people who have never been in a situation such as been raped or whatever to comment on if abortion is right or not.

Almost everyone agrees that abortion should definitely be allowed in cases of rape.

At 9/4/08 07:34 PM, CaiWengi wrote: And I think its ridiculous for people who have never been in a situation such as been raped or whatever to comment on if abortion is right or not.

Let me just say here that we're on a forum dedicated to people discussing situations they have no experience to discuss. They also tried that same reasoning with all of cindy sheehans bullshit and that didn't fly.

Now on the subject at hand I think it best to keep your personal beliefs and allow others theirs. Myself I'm pro-life. I practice safe sex, keep monogamous relationships and discuss the outcome and how we would handle a pregnancy should one arise. Other people may act like whores get knocked up and go "get it vacuumed out" that's their choice. Hell yes I'm going to look down on you and think less of you for that decision, but as it stands that's your right to do and I'm not going to stop you.
There's no need to carry the burden of the worlds bad decisions on my shoulders. So I'll keep my views and you can keep yours.

At 9/4/08 07:33 PM, Chavic wrote: The truth is that if you have sex, you risk having a kid.
If you don't want to get pregnant, don't have sex
(see me previous post on accepting responsibility)

Get laid whenever you want but use protection!

Get laid, don't get laid.

Internally inconsistent aren't we?

I think abortion should be a woman's choice. Considering different people have different beliefs about when life begins, it shouldn't be anyone's job to tell other people when their baby is alive. While those who believe life begins at conseption. Based on a CBS/New York times opinion poll (with a 4% margin of error): 39% of the total population believe abortion should be generally available, 38% believe it should be available, but with stricted limits than now, and 22% believe it should not be permitted. Another CBS poll showed 31% believe it should be allowed in any case, 16% thought it should be permitted but with higher restrictions, 30% said it should be permitted only in cases of rape, incest, or to save the woman's life, 12% believe it should be permitted only to save the woman's life, and 5% thought it should never be permitted. Meanwhite, in a CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll, 66% believe it should be legal in the first trimester, 25% in the second trimester, and 10% in the third trimester. A Harris poll revealed 49% support Roe v Wade, while 47% oppose it. A CNN poll found 45% of people polled considered themselves "pro-choice", while 50% considered themselves "pro-life". The most recent poll was done by Gallup, which produced the results that 49% consider themselves "pro-choice", while 47% consider themselves "pro-life".

Now that I'm done boring you with polls, does such uneven distribution of opinions warrent laws restricting abortion? It's unfair to restrict anyone to the moral views of a minority. I'd prefer people be allowed to make their own choice, rather than have a certain group's cultural and moral views be forced upon them.

I think abortion is not very nice, and should be legal for all.

/compromise

At 9/4/08 06:31 PM, Chavic wrote:
Get laid whenever you want but use protection! It is widely available, so there is no excuse. If people choose not to use protection, therefore making a stupid decision, they deserve to suffer the consequences and therefore learn from there mistakes.

Just noting, this is a ridculous point. Sure, the parents do, but how about the baby? Does it deserve to have a 13 year old mother that hates it (Happens in my very own town)

And my point that abortion shouldnt be decided by people who havent experienced it is exactly that. Sure we can discuss, but I dont think its up to anyone except people who have been in the situation to say what people can and cant do, sorry if I mis-worded that. My point there basically is its wrong to have a general vote from all citizens on this topic, sure its a law, but why should people whom it doesnt effect get as big a voice as people whos live it would change?

Birthcontrol doesn't kill a human while its growing. Sperm or an egg by itself isn't a person, but an embryo is.

No its an embryo, it resembles nothing of a human. Its a few cells, nothing more.

I'm the stricter limits type, by the way

Get laid whenever you want but use protection!

Get laid, don't get laid.

Internally inconsistent aren't we?

Yes when taken out of context, my arguments are inconsistent, isn't that amazing! These were responses to two separate people on different topics.

One was talking about people not using protection and depending on having an abortion to "take care" of a baby. I'm certainly not going to tell people not to have sex, since i do. I'm just saying be responsible about it if you must have sex. I'm sure you can't disagree that birth control would prevent the vast majority of unwanted pregnancies.

The other argument was against someone who brought up the failures of birth control. Condoms are 96% effective, the pill is 99% effective, others have their own effectiveness. If you want to have responsible sex, use at least one of these methods, if you want to be even more responsible use two or more. This boosts effectiveness beyond 99%, but still isn't fool proof.

If you want 100% guarantee, I said, then don't have sex. Its the only way. If you can't afford or take care of a baby, abstinence is the only way to prevent one.

I can't make decisions for people, but they should still be educated in the best decisions to make.

At 9/4/08 08:24 PM, CaiWengi wrote:

At 9/4/08 06:31 PM, Chavic wrote:
Get laid whenever you want but use protection! It is widely available, so there is no excuse. If people choose not to use protection, therefore making a stupid decision, they deserve to suffer the consequences and therefore learn from there mistakes.

Just noting, this is a ridculous point. Sure, the parents do, but how about the baby? Does it deserve to have a 13 year old mother that hates it (Happens in my very own town)

First of all, a 13 year old should be old enough to know the consequences of sex. I would think that she should have the baby, and then give it up for adoption (although she can keep it if she wants, but needs support from her parents). The baby doesn't deserve to die, but neither does it deserve a 13 year old mother who hates it.

And my point that abortion shouldnt be decided by people who havent experienced it is exactly that. Sure we can discuss, but I dont think its up to anyone except people who have been in the situation to say what people can and cant do, sorry if I mis-worded that. My point there basically is its wrong to have a general vote from all citizens on this topic, sure its a law, but why should people whom it doesnt effect get as big a voice as people whos live it would change?

Well it is a law that everyone decides, and this is not something that only experience can fix. If you would see my original suggestions, it covers almost every possible mishap. Of course people other than the 13 year old can see the problems she would face.

Birthcontrol doesn't kill a human while its growing. Sperm or an egg by itself isn't a person, but an embryo is.

No its an embryo, it resembles nothing of a human. Its a few cells, nothing more.

There is much controversy about when life begins. An embryo ranges microscopic mass of rapidly dividing cells that will soon become a full human being to the 8th week of gestation when it is called a fetus, how is it not human?
When do you propose life begins, at birth? There is a lot of evidence to the contrary Here and Here for example.

A sperm or an egg is a single celled organism that can lead to life, but will never become a person itself.

At 9/4/08 09:31 PM, Chavic wrote: If you want 100% guarantee, I said, then don't have sex. Its the only way. If you can't afford or take care of a baby, abstinence is the only way to prevent one.

I can't afford or take care of a baby, and I'm not gonna be abstinent. Can you afford to take care of a baby, or would it completely ruin any plans you had for the next decade?

At 9/4/08 09:49 PM, Earfetish wrote:

At 9/4/08 09:31 PM, Chavic wrote: If you want 100% guarantee, I said, then don't have sex. Its the only way. If you can't afford or take care of a baby, abstinence is the only way to prevent one.

I can't afford or take care of a baby, and I'm not gonna be abstinent. Can you afford to take care of a baby, or would it completely ruin any plans you had for the next decade?

That is your choice.

I can afford to have one, it might make finishing college slow down, that is why I choose to use birth control, to make it at least unlikely. But I am a junior now, so I would be almost to graduation by the time a baby came.

I have money saved in an ING account, and I have talked with my fiancee about what we would do if she gets pregnant. I am being responsible, and could take care of a baby with little adverse effect to my future.

We're not going to try to have one until we finish college, but would not be devastated if I did.

At 9/4/08 10:00 PM, Chavic wrote: We're not going to try to have one until we finish college, but would not be devastated if I did.

Or if she gets pregnant you could just get an abortion and save alot of trouble.

Personally I don't think there's anything special or important about a fetus and therefore I have no qualms with abortions.

I am all for a woemens vagina rights she has the right to do whatever she wishes to with it

that is like telling a man he can not stroke the Dragon because it wastes potential life

At 9/4/08 09:31 PM, Chavic wrote:

Get laid whenever you want but use protection!

Get laid, don't get laid.

Internally inconsistent aren't we?

Yes when taken out of context, my arguments are inconsistent, isn't that amazing! These were responses to two separate people on different topics.

If you don't want to get pregnant, don't have sex

Get laid whenever you want but use protection!

If you don't want to have kids don't get laid but have as much sex as you want.

Uhhhh....what?

I don't believe there's anything wrong with being pro-life, but why force your views when life begins on others? That's espicially true when you consider those pro-life people are a minority. If I believe life begins at birth, and you believe life begins at conception, why should you be able to stop me from getting rid of something I don't even believe is "alive"? That's nothing more than forcing your personal opinion on others