i think one of the differences brought up between Christian denominations is when the soul leaves the body and is judged. i think Evangelicals believe you're only judged at the end of times whereas others believe its once you die.

There are now five religion arguments on the first page. FIVE.

It's official - this dead horse is tenderized to perfection by now.

At 5/24/08 04:14 AM, dySWN wrote: There are now five religion arguments on the first page. FIVE.

It's official - this dead horse is tenderized to perfection by now.

That's nothing. I see 15 topics about politics! It's such an over talked subject. :o

At 4/13/08 03:58 PM, InsaniMaster471 wrote: In the bible it says that God created all things, and, if there is a God, I think this is probably true. To a certain extent. In the Christian bible, it seems to imply that when God created Earth, it was (relatively, you know what I mean) exactly the same as it is today, as if dinosaurs had never existed, etc. I would like to propose a new theory:

;
The bible is a work of fiction, there's no need to rehash that argument here.

God created the beginning of all things. In a forum-ish sense he is like the "troller" of all creation: he gets it going and then sits back and watches the fun. In this way, the theories of Creationism and Darwinism are blended.

Eh? Any takers? Seems plausible to me.

;
The problem as I see it, is that if those of a religious bent feel the Big Bang theory is impossible.
Then how is the theory of 'God' possible.
Many who are adament that God created the universe, with no proof & nothing but 'just cause he did' & my favorite proof "because it tells us so in the bible !" can never give an iota of proof where 'god' came from... did he just somehow exist maybe from a sigularity that went from that form poof instantly to 'god' ?
At least we have evidence to back the theory of the Big Bang. Who knows maybe it happened that sometime later after this new Universe cooled to a point where individual stars & planets had formed , God came by from some other universe & created life here .

It is at the least as plausable as any reason the religious types put forward.
With just as much proof as they have as well .

you know whats interesting? both the big bang and most creation stories begin with a divine being shaping things that were already there.
"durrr; the big bang doesn't explain how matter was created"

At 5/24/08 12:41 PM, SolInvictus wrote: you know whats interesting? both the big bang and most creation stories begin with a divine being shaping things that were already there.
"durrr; the big bang doesn't explain how matter was created"

wait what? Divine being? o0

Ehh a central tenet of most monotheistic religions is creatio ex nihilo

At 5/25/08 09:55 AM, therealsylvos wrote: Ehh a central tenet of most monotheistic religions is creatio ex nihilo

not really. in Abrahamic faiths the earth was created from a shapeless form, in Shinto it was created from a watery substance, in Greek paganism it was created from the void (thats a fun one because the void itself is considered something), etc...

At 5/25/08 01:01 PM, SolInvictus wrote:

At 5/25/08 09:55 AM, therealsylvos wrote: Ehh a central tenet of most monotheistic religions is creatio ex nihilo

not really. in Abrahamic faiths the earth was created from a shapeless form, in Shinto it was created from a watery substance, in Greek paganism it was created from the void (thats a fun one because the void itself is considered something), etc...

As a religious Jew who is far more well versed in classical Jewish philosophy I ASSURE you that creatio ex nihilo is a central tenet to the Abrahamic religions.

At 5/25/08 01:10 PM, therealsylvos wrote: As a religious Jew who is far more well versed in classical Jewish philosophy I ASSURE you that creatio ex nihilo is a central tenet to the Abrahamic religions.

aw damnit; you're right, i forgot that the creation of heaven and earth came before the mentioning it was shapeless and void.
but many still start with an unshaped something.

At 5/25/08 01:10 PM, therealsylvos wrote:
As a religious Jew who is far more well versed in classical Jewish philosophy I ASSURE you that creatio ex nihilo is a central tenet to the Abrahamic religions.

Not to the Catholics. They consider Genesis 1:1 to be a summary of what's coming up, with the actual creation account beginning at Genesis 1:2, thus beginning with the waters already existent before creation.

At 5/27/08 01:33 PM, HorseloverFrost wrote:

At 5/25/08 01:10 PM, therealsylvos wrote:
As a religious Jew who is far more well versed in classical Jewish philosophy I ASSURE you that creatio ex nihilo is a central tenet to the Abrahamic religions.

Not to the Catholics. They consider Genesis 1:1 to be a summary of what's coming up, with the actual creation account beginning at Genesis 1:2, thus beginning with the waters already existent before creation.

Really.
I actually should have said Judaism, since I know very little about other theoligies.

At 5/27/08 01:33 PM, HorseloverFrost wrote: Not to the Catholics. They consider Genesis 1:1 to be a summary of what's coming up, with the actual creation account beginning at Genesis 1:2, thus beginning with the waters already existent before creation.

where does it say that?

At 5/27/08 10:21 PM, SolInvictus wrote:

At 5/27/08 01:33 PM, HorseloverFrost wrote: Not to the Catholics. They consider Genesis 1:1 to be a summary of what's coming up, with the actual creation account beginning at Genesis 1:2, thus beginning with the waters already existent before creation.

where does it say that?

It doesn't say it in the bible, it's just the Catholic interpretation of the bible. The Catholic Church has a number of strange interpretations of biblical passages. For example, church doctrine considers the gospel of John to be somehow 'less valid' than the other gospels.

At 5/27/08 11:09 PM, HorseloverFrost wrote: It doesn't say it in the bible, it's just the Catholic interpretation of the bible.

well i meant doctrine-wise, i have never heard any negation of God having originally created everything.

At 5/27/08 11:09 PM, HorseloverFrost wrote: It doesn't say it in the bible, it's just the Catholic interpretation of the bible. The Catholic Church has a number of strange interpretations of biblical passages. For example, church doctrine considers the gospel of John to be somehow 'less valid' than the other gospels.

Everybody knows you can't trust the John

At 5/28/08 12:59 AM, SolInvictus wrote: well i meant doctrine-wise, i have never heard any negation of God having originally created everything.

After a thorough search, I'm afraid I can't turn up any evidence for my claim, besides remembering learning it in Catholic school. Anyone have access to a one of those Catholic study bibles, the kind with the commentary that they use in the schools?

bope, i don't remember it from Catholic school.

Ah well. Either my memory is faulty, or I got a heretic for a high-school religion teacher (I'm leaning towards the latter).

At 5/30/08 10:42 PM, HorseloverFrost wrote: Ah well. Either my memory is faulty, or I got a heretic for a high-school religion teacher (I'm leaning towards the latter).

That makes 3 then. MicktheChampion and I also had heretical religion teachers in Catholic schools.

I think we used the Annotated Bible, but we used whatever we had available......and I don't even remember using my bible all that frequently anyways......

Religion class tended to revolve more around philosophy and morality experiments/discussions rather than bible study......

either way i don't remember any real talk about the creation of the universe and the Bible so i have no idea. but it wouldn't make much sense to simply ignore something.

At 5/30/08 10:55 PM, SolInvictus wrote: either way i don't remember any real talk about the creation of the universe and the Bible so i have no idea. but it wouldn't make much sense to simply ignore something.

There might not have been.....

Creation only seems to be a real hot-button issue for Creationists. I'm pretty sure the Catholic stance is "What a lovely story".

Which actually raises a question:
Does anyone know if Jews believe in 7 day creation? I mean it's their friggin book for fuck's sake.....

My guess is no, because I've never heard them make a point about it like Creationists have.

but its not literalism that is confusing. its where God's work in creation began. the Bible says he created everything while, supposedly, Catholics believe he shaped an already existing but shapeless heaven and earth.
but ya, literalism isn't really a Catholic stance considering the fact that the Vatican accepts what science has had to say about how things came to be.

At 5/30/08 11:43 PM, Imperator wrote: My guess is no, because I've never heard them make a point about it like Creationists have.

Jews tend not to raise as big a stink about religious issues as Christian creationists do. While due in large part to the extensive oppression jews have suffered, there's also the belief in Judaism that non-jews shouldn't convert, and are only required to obey the seven Noahide laws.

As to whether modern jews believe in the seven-day creation story, my guess would be that the belief varies, like in all religions. However, I do remember one occasion, where I casually made mention of people living shorter lives in the distant past, and an orthodox jew who was part of the conversation said "no, people in the past lived for hundreds of years." I would imagine that if this much more minor part of the torah is still considered valid in the orthodox jewish community, the seven-day creation would still be considered valid as well.

At 5/30/08 11:56 PM, HorseloverFrost wrote: Jews tend not to raise as big a stink about religious issues as Christian creationists do. While due in large part to the extensive oppression jews have suffered, there's also the belief in Judaism that non-jews shouldn't convert, and are only required to obey the seven Noahide laws.

good points. I have a problem with talking about Jews though, because I find it hard to distinguish where stereotypes and persecutions stem from the ethnic identity rather than the religious identity.

I mean, most people cite the Holocaust as a religious persecution, but Hitler cited things like economics as a reason, and persecuted other ethnic groups, so I'm not convinced it was entirely religious based, if any.

It also makes it hard to pin down anything concrete for me because I again don't know where to distinguish from the religious and ethnic identity.

But yeah, good points.....I don't know why Christians are so loud about this shit, although we've been doing it pretty much since Christianity became the leading ideology under the Romans......

As to whether modern jews believe in the seven-day creation story, my guess would be that the belief varies, like in all religions. However. . .

I wonder if he was a more on the fundamentalist side of the orthodox faith, or if that's a mainstream view. Have to agree that if there are people who think people actually lived for 100s of years when the life expectancy in the Roman Empire was like 35 then yeah, the 7 days thing would be a given......

At 5/30/08 11:49 PM, SolInvictus wrote: but its not literalism that is confusing. its where God's work in creation began. the Bible says he created everything while, supposedly, Catholics believe he shaped an already existing but shapeless heaven and earth.
but ya, literalism isn't really a Catholic stance considering the fact that the Vatican accepts what science has had to say about how things came to be.

Sorry Sol, but you took the words right out of my mouth......
I've really got nothing to add, you seemed to have covered it all already.....

Damn you for killing the debate, I'm not gonna sacrifice even an ass let alone tits unless you produce something to continue the thread!

At 5/31/08 12:19 AM, Imperator wrote: good points. I have a problem with talking about Jews though, because I find it hard to distinguish where stereotypes and persecutions stem from the ethnic identity rather than the religious identity.

I mean, most people cite the Holocaust as a religious persecution, but Hitler cited things like economics as a reason, and persecuted other ethnic groups, so I'm not convinced it was entirely religious based, if any.

It also makes it hard to pin down anything concrete for me because I again don't know where to distinguish from the religious and ethnic identity.

I was referring to religion and religious persecution, but the point holds for racial discrimination as well. Since Judaism has a pretty strict no conversion rule, most people who are jews religiously speaking are also jews ethnically speaking (though the reverse is not true, naturally).

Someone needs to create a specific term to refer to jewishness as a religion as opposed to jewishness as an ethnicity. I propose 'iysh etzel el', hebrew for "person at the house of god", IEE for short.

But yeah, good points.....I don't know why Christians are so loud about this shit, although we've been doing it pretty much since Christianity became the leading ideology under the Romans......

Christianity and Islam are, as far as I know, the only two major religions with "it's my way or the highway" policies.

I wonder if he was a more on the fundamentalist side of the orthodox faith, or if that's a mainstream view. Have to agree that if there are people who think people actually lived for 100s of years when the life expectancy in the Roman Empire was like 35 then yeah, the 7 days thing would be a given......

I'll have to ask some of my reform jew friends the next time I see them.

At 5/31/08 01:42 AM, HorseloverFrost wrote: Someone needs to create a specific term to refer to jewishness as a religion as opposed to jewishness as an ethnicity. I propose 'iysh etzel el', hebrew for "person at the house of god", IEE for short.

You sir have won one (1) internets for your smarts.

Christianity and Islam are, as far as I know, the only two major religions with "it's my way or the highway" policies.

Ditto.

Maybe that 'my way or the highway' attitude says something to their survivability though.....Judaism has especially been around for quite some time.

I'll have to ask some of my reform jew friends the next time I see them.

I'm always lookin to learn somethin new. I wouldn't mind if you do happen to ask next time.

At 5/31/08 12:24 AM, Imperator wrote: Damn you for killing the debate, I'm not gonna sacrifice even an ass let alone tits unless you produce something to continue the thread!

but this shaping of an already existing world is still confusing as hell, regardless of literalism.

At 5/31/08 02:12 PM, SolInvictus wrote:

You should check out some posts by LastSpartan.