As usual, I'm happy to hear from Rhaeghar. I obviously agree with him on all accounts. Thank you for the congrats. Voting and reviewing flash submissions is usually my number one choice for procrastinating homework. :P

Yes there are people who will make bad decisions based on religion but these are PEOPLE making these bad decisions, not religion itself.

I have very mixed feelings when it comes to religion. I blame it for what it turns people into. But I would never want it to be abolished. I think there is a time and a place for it. The place is always in your own mind and body, I am not in favor of public display. But I can't ignore the benefits it offers to someone people. On the good side of religion, we have faith. Faith that someone is watching out for them. Faith that things will end the way they should end, and that for every person's sacrifice, more needy people will benefit. This is about being kind to your neighbor, and doing things for your community. It's about solidarity, purpose and peace. On the bad side of religion, we have intolerance. Intolerance of those that do not share your beliefs. Intolerance of those that violate the letter (but not necessarily the spirit) of your written word. The intolerant seek to change people that do not want to be changed, and to seek, by force, the "conversion" of others to your way of thinking. This intolerance is why I blame religion. And intolerance is part of religion, driving people to make bad decisions.

DSM-

I have noticed that everyone is staying out of this conversation. I'm getting pretty sick of it because Rhae and I have our views on the matter which seem to be similar and Thunder has his. At this point we've all made our points and its all starting to sound like the same thing over and over again. I'd like to write this off as a fun learning experience and a great MAC debate and move on. Any new topic suggestions?

You'll be happy to know I don't have herpes. I loved Rhae's response to you. LOL.

Rhaeghar:

I'm sorry if you find it upsetting that I try to respond to your entire post and make it easy for you to realize why I'm saying what I'm saying; hopefully this isn't the case.

It isn’t of course, I don’t mind but it’s happened before where I’ve started out discussing one thing and before you know it my responses and the responses of others end up being a couple posts long just to fit everything in. When that happens people start getting frustrated and even insulting, it’s no fun for anyone and the topic rarely gets resolved. I simply don’t want that to happen here, you are of course welcome to quote as much as you like but I will only quote a few select sentences, I like to keep things compact.

Is listening to stories about your beliefs going to make me a better martial artist? Or even a better person? I do not believe it will

Only if you let it, but I don’t want to start sounding all preachy and I don’t want to get too far beyond the scope of martial arts so I’ll leave it at that.

It's a matter of PERSONAL opinion.

Exactly my point; Religion doesn’t effect martial arts except on a personal level. If you had a roomful of Christians and one or two non-Christians would you silence those Christians of all religious talk just to make it comfortable for a couple of people? If you don’t like it when people pray and if you don’t like hearing about God then you can leave. No one is forcing you to stick around and tolerate religion, much less pay for lessons that involve religion somehow.

Strictly speaking, personal opinions, objections (etc…) aside, there is nothing wrong with “mixing” religion and martial arts. The only argument you posed against the “mixing” of religion and martial arts was based on your likes and dislikes, your personal opinion. And you know what, I respect that, I may not agree but I’m not going to say you have to agree with me. We're coming from two different perspectives here, I doubt we will necessarily agree.

This is to satan a little more specifically:

About your herpes analogy; that could be one perspective but from mine it’s more like a cure for cancer. I have it, I love it, let’s share!

just to be fair :)

I'd like to write this off as a fun learning experience and a great MAC debate and move on.

Soon, I don’t want to continue this conversation for too much longer but I don’t want to end it before it’s resolved.

Any new topic suggestions?

Not really, but my inquiries into resources for proper sai usage have gone unanswered. Does anyone else here even train with sai???

Don't you hate it when Reality gets in the way of posting? ;)

Despite having an internet connection at work, and being able to view NSFW images, the connection on my home comp is much faster. I will respond to all questions directed to me..... When I get home in a few hours. But just to take care of one thing.....

To: Rhae -

You should have reached level 2 already. Just log on to NG everyday for like 2 minutes, vote on 5 submissions, then click on the link that will appear afterwards. It literally takes like 2 minutes. Maybe even less time.

Mono -

I really should; but lack the necessary "give a crap" rating to do so :(

At 3/21/07 02:54 PM, ThunderboltLegion wrote:

Is listening to stories about your beliefs going to make me a better martial artist? Or even a better person? I do not believe it will

Only if you let it, but I don’t want to start sounding all preachy and I don’t want to get too far beyond the scope of martial arts so I’ll leave it at that.

This is where I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree Thunder. You will never be able to convince me that religion is not 99%+ of the time is a gimmick to get people to give others their money and time an energy. I guess a good analogy would be to look at it from a historical point of view. Back when Mount Olympus was thought to harbour many gods and amongst these gods Zeus streaked the skies with lightning - it was thought the best thing to do was gain the god's blessing to obtain true happiness and success. I feel we are in much the same bog now as we were then only we've changed to a single god. instead of many. in most religions. So while I'm willing to admitt there is the possibility that a person will learn morals from a religious story about jesus, there are other ways to teach these character traits and skills than through the lens of religions. And learning these religious morals is in no way shape or form going to be able to progress my skills in the martial arts.

If you don’t like it when people pray and if you don’t like hearing about God then you can leave. : No one is forcing you to stick around and tolerate religion, much less pay for lessons that
involve religion somehow.

Actually the question being addressed here was a hypothetical situation in which exactly this was happening. The instructor was incorporating time in the martial arts lessons to pray to god. So please don't think I'm saying that you should not mix them under the right circumstances - but should the instructor take time out of the lesson specifically for that when it's not something you've agreed upon? You're paying to learn about martial arts, not religion.

This is to satan a little more specifically:

About your herpes analogy; that could be one perspective but from mine it’s more like a cure for cancer. I have it, I love it, let’s share!

just to be fair :)

Well since it's a public forum and I was put into a bit of a frisky mood today I'll take a daring chance at responding to this remark anyways - see above mentioned comment on religion.

I'd like to write this off as a fun learning experience and a great MAC debate and move on.

Absolutely, please don't think I'm trying to come in here and start flame wars. I assure you I'm a very mature individual and if my posts seem a little opinionated and offend you I apologize, unfortunately the beast that is a forum like this usually requires personal opinions as answers and there be two or more clearly defined "sides" to the discussion.

Any new topic suggestions?

The Practicality of training in weapons, and the consequences of using your martial arts skill against somebody after you've been training for a solid period of time.

At 3/22/07 04:55 AM, Rhaeghar wrote: This is where I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree Thunder. etc...

Fair enough, besides I doubt we could take this line of conversation any further and still maintain even a little martial arts content. So I concur, agree to disagree.

Actually the question being addressed here was a hypothetical situation in which exactly this was happening. The instructor was incorporating time in the martial arts lessons to pray to god. So please don't think I'm saying that you should not mix them under the right circumstances - but should the instructor take time out of the lesson specifically for that when it's not something you've agreed upon? You're paying to learn about martial arts, not religion.

And I think that's a good idea, if religion is going to be involved in a class you should be told about it before you pay for that class.

Well since it's a public forum and I was put into a bit of a frisky mood today I'll take a daring chance at responding to this remark anyways - see above mentioned comment on religion.

See above responce to above mentioned comment on religion.

Absolutely, please don't think I'm trying to come in here and start flame wars.

Not at all, though not the most fun I've ever had on the internet this was a mostly pleasent conversation :)

The Practicality of training in weapons,

I think it depends on the weapon to an extent. Knives for example would be extremely practicle. Kali sticks, bo staff and even tunfa (night stick) would also be fairly practicle. When it comes to swords, spears, kamas, sai, nunchaku or other weapons that you wouldn't normally find just laying around or have access to, it's not as practicle. However getting used to all different weapons I believe would help you to adapt random objects into improvised weapons more effectively.

and the consequences of using your martial arts skill against somebody after you've been training for a solid period of time.

If you're talking about from a legal standpoint than this one has Mono's name written all over it.

Figuratively that is...

Grab a Snickers bar, you're going to be reading this for awhile....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To: Rhae -

There's definitely something f**ked up about an M.A. Instructor who sees a girl's vagina when he's changing her diaper, and then looks forward to seeing it less than 20 years later! That's not a case of true love seperated by Age. That's a case of a grown ass man who lacks the ability to communicate and interact with an adult woman close to his own age. They might seem happy, but who knows what goes on behind closed doors.

Regarding the stat about half of all women being sexually assaulted sometime in their Lifetime, I learned that years ago. Can't recall where I got it from. It includes other things besides rape. In this f**ked up world, I think that stat is sadly accurate.

Can't completely agree that religion is just like herpes, in that both ruin lives. Religion has made some people's lives better. It gives them a support base of like-minded individuals. This is sometimes just what is needed for a person to stay off drugs & alcohol; or to find a sense of stability in their lives. As long as one doesn't join a Cult or a particularly intolerant church, it could benefit them.

__________

To: Thunder -

With regards to the following things you said.....

"What does religion do to martial arts that makes it so objectionable."
-AND-
"Religion doesn't effect martial arts except on a personal level."

It seems I wasn't able to make my point, with regard to the religious Knife Combatives instructor. With regards to the former quote, what I find objectionable is that some religious martial arts instructors might leave out important teachings because of their beliefs. One example would be a new student who wishes to defend himself from the types of 2-legged predators that he is likely to encounter. Let's say that our new student goes to the above-mentioned Knife Combatives instructor. The student learns about all aspects of self-defense against a knifer. But the instructor, because of his religious beliefs, excludes instruction on how to deal with prison knifers.

I see something like this as a great disservice. You're not likely to be attacked by a knight on horseback. You ARE likely to encounter someone who has spent time in prison, and learned how to use an edged weapon. It might not be a holy system, but prison techniques are not tested out on rubber training dummies or in sparring matches. These techniques have been tested out on human flesh..... against unwilling "partners."

As disgusting or offensive as that may sound, there's no greater test of what works and what doesn't when it comes to Knife Combatives. An instructor who is aware of these techniques but refuses to teach them because of his religious beliefs, he's putting his new student into a horrible disadvantage should the student one day encounter someone who has done time or been trained by someone who has. That's just one example of why I find the mixing to be objectionable.

As you can see from the above example, I don't think it is something that effects martial arts ONLY on a personal level.

People do make bad decisions sometimes, and sometimes it is not the religion itself that is the problem. But the above example is not something that would take place if a martial arts instructor believed in teaching what works, regardless if the techniques come from a less-than-holy source.

In my chosen field of work, Aikido would be an excellent Art for me to learn. Why haven't I taken it up? Can't find a place that doesn't emphasize the religious aspects or philosophical aspects of the Art. Private lessons might be best, but are pricey. I wish I could find a place that emphasized the techniques.
__________

To: satan -

I know what you mean by what religion can turn people into. Still, some folks benefit by "finding God."

BTW, glad to know you don't have herpes..... Rhae is probably particularly happy to know this. :P
----------------------

Regarding: Practicality of Training in Weapons......

If you take martial arts for its self-defense value, you MUST learn weapons. And, allow me to be specific, I mean common weapons. Traditional martial arts weapons are rarely going to be encountered in the Real World. Training with them is more about fun, and the challenge involved in mastering them. But for self-defense purposes, you need to learn weapons you are likely to encounter on the streets.

Besides martial arts training, I have firearms training under my belt. I train in Knife Combatives. Stick fighting is another practical aspect to learn. Muggers, rapists, and Sociopaths are not going to attack you with their bare hands. They don't want a fair fight. They use weapons to gain a huge advantage over their victims so they can hurt or even kill them. If you know how to use a particular weapon, you can more easily learn to defend against it.

Here is an example of what I mean by attackers using weapons because they don't give a damn about fighting fairly....... For those of you who missed it, one of our own members was stabbed with an ice-pick.

Link:
http://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic.php?id=67 3246

At 3/22/07 11:52 AM, ThunderboltLegion wrote:

At 3/22/07 04:55 AM, Rhaeghar wrote:

and the consequences of using your martial arts skill against somebody after you've been training for a solid period of time.

If you're talking about from a legal standpoint than this one has Mono's name written all over it.

Figuratively that is...

I can't type quickly, so I didn't see Thunder's post until after I posted.

Let me just say that I'm not an attorney. I studied criminal law in NYC with an eye on becoming a paralegal specializing in the same. (That didn't work out). But here are some of the consequences you can look forward to.....

1) Being arrested, charged with assault, and often times being held to a higher standard when it is discovered you are a martial artist. For some stupid reason, cops, judges, and prosecutors believe that a martial artist should be able to easily handle even an armed attacker. If you hurt him badly enough, you might get a stiffer sentence if you get convicted of attacking HIM!

2) Getting sued in civil court by your attacker. As retarded as it is, he'll sue you for his medical bills and pain & suffering. Expect his attorney to really go after you if there's even the slightest doubt that it was clear cut self-defense on your part. You could end up losing more than just a chunk of change. More like nearly all of your Life-Savings.

3) If your attacker dies, his Low-life widow will sue you. Also as retarded as it sounds, the Law recognizes that your dead attacker was the Breadwinner for his family. Now that he's dead, there's no one around to provide for his wife and kids. He may have been a scumbag, he may have beaten folks upside the head when they weren't quick enough in handing over their wallets...... but the Law sees that he DID provide for his family with his "job." His job being robbing folks! So his Low-life widow, who knew exactly where the money was coming from, is going to sue you for having deprived her and her kids of their Provider. And, she's likely to win! So there goes your Life Savings again. (In both of the above examples, if you own property, such as a house, guess who's going to be living in your house. Go on..... guess)!

4) Let's say it was clear cut self-defense, let's say your attacker had no wife or kids, let's say you won your civil case....... You still lose! As in $$$. It's time to start paying off those huge attorney's fees. You won your cases, but your attorney will be the one celebrating by flying off to Disneyland; on your dime!

5) Sometimes the charges are dropped, and your attacker doesn't sue. Don't celebrate just yet! Some attackers don't sue because they believe in revenge, instead of the System. So, 6 months down the road when you get shot walking out of your favorite Bar, your favorite restaurant, or going outside one Sunday morning to get the Paper...... Don't be TOO surprised.

6) A variation on #5 is that the guy goes after someone you care about, instead. Or, if he's a gang member, one of his buddies will get revenge for him. Now you have someone actively stalking you..... and you have no clue what they look like! Your stalker could also be the guy's psychotic sister, or a female gang member. You've got your guard up, looking for a dude to try something, and here comes this pretty thing walking right up to you, smiling, holding a weapon in her hand behind her back.

7) The 2nd worst case situation = You get convicted for Manslaughter because you killed your attacker....... Now you'll have plenty of time to test out your martial arts skills, in prison!

8) Worst case = Despite having successfully defended yourself, you suffer a permanent injury during the attack against you. Most likely to happen with a knifer. A slash to a certain spot means you lose the use of a hand for the rest of your life because all the muscles and nerves got cut.

At 3/22/07 01:11 PM, Monocrom wrote: 8) Worst case = Despite having successfully defended yourself, you suffer a permanent injury during the attack against you. Most likely to happen with a knifer. A slash to a certain spot means you lose the use of a hand for the rest of your life because all the muscles and nerves got cut.

Wow Mono an incredibly thorough answer, the only thing I'd add onto this is

9) -8 + law suits / criminal charges.

Now as for my thoughts on practicality in training with weapons is that if you have trained with this weapon, you will also be held responsible for escalating the fight if you bring in a weapon considered more deadly than the one the "mugger" or person you are engaged in disagreement or combat with. The level of responsibility that you are upheld to also increases greatly when you achieve your black belt certificate in any martial arts. So as you progress through training and pick up more and more skills - you will be held more and more accountable for the reactions you take in a fight or flight situation. Personally I think the most practical things to train in are small sticks I like to refer to as "pain sticks" which are typically 7 - 10" long and an 1 - 1 1/2 inches in diameter depending on the owner of the weapon, and the larger version the kali sticks. The Bo staff while a very strong weapon is going to be a bit too large in many situations and a bit of an oddity. I mean how often do you see someone walking down the street with a stick as tall or taller than themself?

Additionally even if your attacker begins with a knife creating a fairly deadly situation that you have to safely extract yourself from, hopefully, when you take his knife from him if you then decide you really don't like him trying to skewer you and you want a little pay back for your upset and adrenaline filled emotions this is when you'll likely be getting in trouble. Remember if he all of a sudden decides it's not worth it - he's right! It's not. Hopefully even most low life won't want to take a serious stab at you a second time if you let them leave with their body unharmed and some of their humility as well. Typically these people won't be attacking you in front of a crow so there's no harm in them simply walking away. I suppose this is where my life differs from others, I don't really have to deal with the gang mentality crap. You just don't see it around where I live. This may be an entirely different response from a gang member because of some imagined slight to their "pride" and there may be more than a single opponent.

Now that I've covered most of what I wanted to with the practicality of training in weapons - who has any thoughts on the practical training with weapons? (i.e. how easy / difficult it is to effectively learn how to defends oneself with a weapon and how many weapons it's a good idea to train in during your time in martial arts.)

At 3/22/07 12:28 PM, Monocrom wrote: To: Rhae -
Regarding the stat about half of all women being sexually assaulted sometime in their Lifetime, I learned that years ago. Can't recall where I got it from. It includes other things besides rape. In this f**ked up world, I think that stat is sadly accurate.

That's pretty sad, I'd really like to not believe that that's true. If it is I think some people need a reality check and need to get a couple whoopings when they're younger to keep their a$$e$ in line.

Can't completely agree that religion is just like herpes, in that both ruin lives.

I'm not saying it doesn't or can't help lives. However, it is accurate that while it may help some, due to it's existence it certainly ruins some as well. A respected martial arts instructor that trained at one of my schools became so religious he bascially threw away his life savings to this cultist church around our town. Now it may be able to help people but by drinking their bank accounts dry and becoming an obssession is not one of the ways organized religions improve human life.

To: Thunder -

With regards to the following things you said.....

"What does religion do to martial arts that makes it so objectionable."
-AND-
"Religion doesn't effect martial arts except on a personal level."

I guess I wasn't entirely clear on what you were asking by this question either :)

In my chosen field of work, Aikido would be an excellent Art for me to learn. Why haven't I
taken it up? Can't find a place that doesn't emphasize the religious aspects or philosophical : aspects of the Art. Private lessons might be best, but are pricey. I wish I could find a place
that emphasized the techniques.

It is definately becoming more and more difficult to find a good school to train in that has good technique. (this may become a future topic of discussion). ^_

Hello. I am a hentai fan, but I'm also very skilled in Tae Kwon Do. I am currently a blue belt, and rapidly advancing. I train at Miller's Black Belt Academy in Belvedere, CA (in Marin County). I am interested in becoming a member of your club. Please notify me if you would allow me to join.

P.S.
Know any Naruto Hentai clubs? Lol... I think.

At 3/24/07 12:11 AM, NakedSakuraLover wrote: Hello. I am a hentai fan, but I'm also very skilled in Tae Kwon Do. I am currently a blue belt, and rapidly advancing. I train at Miller's Black Belt Academy in Belvedere, CA (in Marin County). I am interested in becoming a member of your club. Please notify me if you would allow me to join.

P.S.
Know any Naruto Hentai clubs? Lol... I think.

Sure, as long as you exchange hentai clips with me! *joking...maybe* :P

What made you decide to start training in martial arts? I'm satan btw. Welcome to the MAC. =D

At 3/24/07 07:58 PM, Satanic-Samurai wrote:

At 3/24/07 12:11 AM, NakedSakuraLover wrote: Hello. I am a hentai fan, but I'm also very skilled in Tae Kwon Do. I am currently a blue belt, and rapidly advancing. I train at Miller's Black Belt Academy in Belvedere, CA (in Marin County). I am interested in becoming a member of your club. Please notify me if you would allow me to join.

P.S.
Know any Naruto Hentai clubs? Lol... I think.

Sure, as long as you exchange hentai clips with me! *joking...maybe* :P

Hey now you two, if you want to talk about hentai, do it appropriately and openly, which means adding as much tentacles and rape as possible...*cough*

What made you decide to start training in martial arts? I'm satan btw. Welcome to the MAC. =D

And I would be Lundi, not really too much of a regular, but still a member nonetheless, so welcome. Answer the question biotch :)

To: Rhae -

The best thing to do when weapons come into play is to run away. So, a good pair of sneakers would help. Generally, with knifers, if you see the knife that means the guy screwed up his attack. Generally, I don't put too much emphasis on disarming a knifer. All he has to do is rotate his wrist as he instinctively pulls his hand back, and your hand gets sliced open.

As far as practicality goes, the kubaton and other variations on the same theme are also worth training in. One of the better variations is the Koppo or pocket stick.

Link:
http://www.donrearic.com/koppostick.html

http://www.donrearic.com/koppostick2.html

Parts 1 AND 2

New Topic of Discussion:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Got this idea from an Operator on a different discussion forum. He always wears a cup when out & about. Always!

What do you guys think of this idea?

(Sorry satan. Afraid this one is gender specific).

At 3/25/07 05:10 AM, Monocrom wrote: New Topic of Discussion:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Got this idea from an Operator on a different discussion forum. He always wears a cup when out & about. Always!

What do you guys think of this idea?

(Sorry satan. Afraid this one is gender specific).

Kind of weird and uncomfortable, but it actually sounds like a good idea.

Plus...it'll make your **** look bigger...

(JK)

At 3/20/07 11:39 PM, Rhaeghar wrote:

.. don't compare your herpes with religion satanic, ..

I've got a request too dsm. Don't insult people. It's not flattering.

Hey RH lick my balls. Lick em good.

One only atheist seem to say that religion ruins people's lives. And those people never had a religion at all to say that it ruined theirs, unless an entire religion took a physical form and killed everyone closest to you, took your assholes virginity. and convinced everyone in your life that you had a disease that is highly contagious that causes your balls to fall off. Just sayin.

Anyways I've gotten back into practice again. Of course I still can't get up to my full speed, but I can still at least do a 720, right and left 540's consecutively and maybe a 2 minute round of sparing. Hopefully I'll be up to full speed by the end of the week or so cause I need to start practicing for my 3rd degree testing in less that two months.

At 3/25/07 10:10 PM, dsmking wrote:

At 3/20/07 11:39 PM, Rhaeghar wrote:

.. don't compare your herpes with religion satanic, ..

I've got a request too dsm. Don't insult people. It's not flattering.

Hey RH lick my balls. Lick em good.

Deeper words were never spoken.

One only atheist seem to say that religion ruins people's lives. And those people never had a religion at all to say that it ruined theirs, unless an entire religion took a physical form and killed everyone closest to you, took your assholes virginity. and convinced everyone in your life that you had a disease that is highly contagious that causes your balls to fall off. Just sayin.

It's quite a popular opinion to generalize all atheists. Though the generalization made isn't really all that far off, that atheists are elitists or anarchists. The idea comes from the fact that atheists either like to believe those who have religion are beneath them, or just believe religion itself is a bad thing overall. If you're an atheist and these AREN'T your points of view...then you're not atheist, you're agnostic. Can we agree on that?

Anyways I've gotten back into practice again. Of course I still can't get up to my full speed, but I can still at least do a 720, right and left 540's consecutively and maybe a 2 minute round of sparing. Hopefully I'll be up to full speed by the end of the week or so cause I need to start practicing for my 3rd degree testing in less that two months.

All i can offer as a suggestion is to keep practicing and to keep practicing hard. I was impressed when i went to a 3rd degree testing of a good friend of mine. Half of it had nothing to do with his physical abilities, 5 black belts sat behind a table and asked him questions about his style. He answered them all correctly, of course some were opinion questions though. The other half was more remembering things from his past experience in the style, you know, doing forms learned as a white belt and such. the last thing he had to do though, was something new. He was given a cinder block, and he was told to break it. So, with a nice scream, he was successful. I suppose though, depending on your style, the tests vary by a lot.

Mono -
That's where I'd wanted the discussion to go. Those little metal sticks are damn handy and painful if you know how to use them. That link was rather thorough, remember though that not even knowledge can replace practice. While it's fun to play around with staves, nunchaku and other flashy weapons if you really want train for defense purposes I would suggest learning something a little more practical first and become proficient with it before moving onto other more artsy weapons. Fortunately the days of the Horseback Warrior and Spartan have come to an end and we are attempting to move into a more noble civilized world society.

At 3/25/07 10:10 PM, dsmking wrote:

At 3/20/07 11:39 PM, Rhaeghar wrote:

.. don't compare your herpes with religion satanic, ..

I've got a request too dsm. Don't insult people. It's not flattering.

Hey RH lick my balls. Lick em good.

You're not worth the time or effort to try and get in any kind of flame war with dsm. You're obviously an immature self-centered vulgar child. You're not doing yourself a favor by being rude and nasty to someone whom you don't know.

One only atheist seem to say that religion ruins people's lives.

1) Maybe "only atheists" seem to say that because of the religions that believe in your god (I assume you're christian) have seen fit to harass, abuse, torture, maim and kill so many hundreds of millions of innocents, and Atheist was the term your religions decided to give to people who don't like what your religion does.

2) I'm not an atheist.

unless an entire religion took a physical form and killed everyone closest to you, took your
assholes virginity. and convinced everyone in your life that you had a disease that is highly :
contagious that causes your balls to fall off. Just sayin.

All you're trying to do here is to turn this into something absurdly funny to you because you don't like the truth of the fact that religion is a bloodthirsty animal that rapes, pillages and plunders. This is not as true in our current "civilized" society - but believe me it does still happen. Priests raping little boys, churches brainwashing their supporters to do many things such as anything from killing themselves to signing over their life savings, (so as to be relieved of some guilty conscience with the lie being fed to them that they will be forgiven by some mythological figure that doesn't exist who will take them to this wonderful afterlife where everything will be mysteriously perfect) or convincing and supporting their members to harass and verbally abuse people to get them to believe in your religion - especially when they've just had to deal with some traumatic experience because your priests and pastors know they're vulnerable. Personally it all just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I prefer to live by morals and decency than relying on some imagined creator to forgive me for my "shortcomings" by paying off some slimy pastor whose main goal is to recruit more members to his church so next year he can buy that nice Bentley he's always wanted.

Lastly dsm, if you think some rude punk on the internet that I don't know is enough to upset me or ruffle my feathers in any way, I'm sorry to have to disappoint you. All your rudeness and vulgarity does is make you look like a fool. If you don't like looking at the facts I'm sure you'll go back to hiding your head in the sand like so many others before you have. Until after Galileo the world was believed to be flat, and it wasn't until a loong time afterwards that it readily became accepted as scientific fact that the world was in fact spherical because the christian bible says the world is flat! In fact there are still people in the world today in denial about the geometric shape of our planet, the age of our planet, and argue against simple physics such as lift and rather choose to believe everything operates via a magical divine force.
Wikipedia - Flat Earth Soceity

To everyone else -
I apologize if my outspokenness has upset any of you. This is the last post I'm going to reply to with any kind of response towards religious beliefs or thoughts or arguments because this is a martial arts club and I'm not here to argue theology. Unfortunately there are those that seem unable to just discuss religion and feel it necessary to turn nasty and rude to people when religion is brought into the discussion and there's any kind of discontinuity of belief.

Lundi-

Those words could never have been more deeply spoken than right there. It felt good to get out.

My school we do third degree testing close to that. As an instructor I'll probably have to right a 10 page paper on what I've learned through teaching and how it has affected my life. Be asked a question on something about TKD or Korea, do one steps(which ever one of the 30 they tell me to. Being an instructor they kinda just tell you at the last minute expecting you know them all, with good reason of course. Be told to do any form. As an instructor I already know a vast majority of the TKD forms up to Pyong Won which is the standard 4th degree form in TKD. Sparring as always and of course breaking techs. Usually for 3rd degree it is through 3 to 4 1 inch boards on 5 random techniques. That about summarizes what I will have to do for my testing.

I was going to practice today but sadly I got kicked out of work for the day. Apparently having a rash allover you body gets itchier when you sweat. It's not herpes just an allergic reaction to some shit.
To Rh person

As an assholish, religiously one-sided, hell spawn I can tell you that I eat children as part of y religion. Yes, yes, the countless unborn fetuses and children I have eaten over the years truly proves how devotedly, and blindly, I follow my religion. Cause I mean what is religion but a way to be an evil person.

And I always give all my money to those priest so they can drive away in a nice Bentley and buy those little boys they jsut seem to crave so much. Cause men of the cloth who take vows of chastity, and poverty all just say that they do those things to sucker more money out of people.

Don't act as if I am oblivious to the evil things PEOPLE in religions have done. T hat does not mean the religion is fucked up you religiously intolerant bastard. "A priest had sex with a little boy" an atheist had sex with a little boy to but that doesn't mean all atheist are child molesters. A priest stole money, an atheist robbed a bank and shot someone again that doesn't mean they all did. Now little boy, and yes you are a little boy, due to your over generalization on the world and beliefs you don't understand so you view them as wrong. So how bout this person who obvious feathers I don't ruffle but got him to write a longer post than i actually felt like reading and was very obviously mad, suck my nuts, suck em good, hard, hope you choke on em cause I don't want you to flap your mouth anymore. But heh if you do, by your standards of priest molesting children and you obviously being a little boy, I could be a priest.

P.S. The world is flat, but that might be just because I am close minded.

Over the past few days I've been pretty busy. I have a few minutes now to actually respond to some of the things that were said earlier that I wanted to but didn't have time.

At 3/21/07 02:54 PM, ThunderboltLegion wrote: Soon, I don’t want to continue this conversation for too much longer but I don’t want to end it before it’s resolved.

I do think it would be nice if we could get to a yes or no answer regarding religion in the martial arts. But since we all have such diverse opinions regarding religion I think this is going to be one of those topics that is going to be left unanswered. If you ask me we're better off dropping it than continuing a never ending debate. Let's just move on.

Any new topic suggestions?

Not really, but my inquiries into resources for proper sai usage have gone unanswered. Does anyone else here even train with sai???

I'm sorry you haven't gotten the answer you were looking for. I have never trained, or even had an interest in learning Sai techniques. A while ago I did get curious and research the history of the weapon, but thats a far as my knowledge goes. Good luck finding what you're looking for.

At 3/22/07 04:55 AM, Rhaeghar wrote: I'd like to write this off as a fun learning experience and a great MAC debate and move on.

Absolutely, please don't think I'm trying to come in here and start flame wars. I assure you I'm a very mature individual and if my posts seem a little opinionated and offend you I apologize, unfortunately the beast that is a forum like this usually requires personal opinions as answers and there be two or more clearly defined "sides" to the discussion.

I know you are much more level headed and calm about making your point than previous assholes *cough* FlyingJ *cough* that do come here picking flame wars. You've approached every topic diplomatically and handled yourself very well. I was in no way questioning your intentions. You should know by now that I don't get offended! :P

Any new topic suggestions?

The Practicality of training in weapons, and the consequences of using your martial arts skill against somebody after you've been training for a solid period of time.

There is no practicality in training is weapons such as Bo, sword, Sai, Kama, chucks, or fan (to my disappointment)except if you're training for tournies. These are all weapons that aren't practical in the street, in some states carrying these can get you in serious trouble. Sticks and knives are the smartest way to go. You and Mono have covered this topic pretty thoroughly, I cant think of much to add to it that hasn't already been said.

As much as law school sucks, I have learned a good bit concerning self defense situations. Because Mono went for the same thing that I am going for he covered every scenario imaginable. The only thing that I can think to add is something that I've mentioned before concerning attackers in your home. If you decide to defend yourself or your home make sure you keep the intruder inside. The minute he turns to run and leave he can sue you in the future for personal injury, if you continue to kick his ass all the way out of your house while he is trying to get away you're guilty of assault. If he gets out drag his ass back in! This subject brought to mind something that I ran across in one of my books that I cant seem to get past. If you are held up at gunpoint and the gun is loaded your attacker is guilty of assault with deadly weapon. But if the gun isn't loaded its just assault. How fucked up is that?

At 3/22/07 12:28 PM, Monocrom wrote: In my chosen field of work, Aikido would be an excellent Art for me to learn. Why haven't I taken it up? Can't find a place that doesn't emphasize the religious aspects or philosophical aspects of the Art. Private lessons might be best, but are pricey. I wish I could find a place that emphasized the techniques.

WTF, dude?! HAPKIDO! You need to do HAPKIDO! Then you can spar with me. ^_^

At 3/24/07 08:22 PM, BigLundi wrote: Hey now you two, if you want to talk about hentai, do it appropriately and openly, which means adding as much tentacles and rape as possible...*cough*

Well of course. I wouldn't have it any other way! :P

At 3/25/07 05:10 AM, Monocrom wrote: Got this idea from an Operator on a different discussion forum. He always wears a cup when out & about. Always!
What do you guys think of this idea?
(Sorry satan. Afraid this one is gender specific).

Gender specific my ass! If I can't get a clear shot at the nuts, I go for the throat!

At 3/25/07 10:10 PM, dsmking wrote: One only atheist seem to say that religion ruins people's lives. And those people never had a religion at all to say that it ruined theirs, unless an entire religion took a physical form and killed everyone closest to you, took your assholes virginity. and convinced everyone in your life that you had a disease that is highly contagious that causes your balls to fall off.

I'm Buddhist in theory and practice, I believe religion ruins lives. I once heard a myth that religion has killed more people than any one disease in the world. I doubt that is true but I can't argue that it hasn't caused the death of many.

As an assholish, religiously one-sided, hell spawn I can tell you that I eat children as part of y religion. Yes, yes, the countless unborn fetuses and children I have eaten over the years truly proves how devotedly, and blindly, I follow my religion. Cause I mean what is religion but a way to be an evil person.

I haven't heard too many stories about people eating children in the name of religion, but it wouldn't surprise me. Nothing does anymore. I mentioned above that religion kills. Think back to the Spanish Inquisition, Crusade of the Middle Ages, and the burning of witches. These are the three biggest religious battles (can be considered genocide) of all time, killings adding up to 264,000 people. All because free thinking people didn't believe in their God. This was something that happened in the past, but I do believe that our past is what makes us who/what we are today. Religion hasn't exactly had the best start and nothing has changed. Now we have suicide bombers ignoring the basis of their religion which states suicide is a sin unless in holy war. Now they are killing themselves and taking hundreds, even thousands out with them in the name of their God because of religious intolerance. We don't believe in their way of life which makes us violators of their holy letter. Any religious leader, being atheist or catholic, that even touches a child in an unholy manner is not only violating the beliefs they have made their lives and claim to follow, but they have also violated every moral they teach. I don't care who did it, its sick.

Don't act as if I am oblivious to the evil things PEOPLE in religions have done.

Obviously you are oblivious. People IN RELIGIONS! They did these evil deeds in the name of their religion and their God. I can accept that religion has some good qualities and has done good things, but the amount of lives it has taken and ruined is much more than what has been saved.

Now little boy, and yes you are a little boy

Once again I have to disagree with you. He is a bigger man than you'll ever be. Why don't you follow the example of the other club members and approach this religious topic with maturity and intelligence? I don't know why I expect so highly so you when I know I will be responded to with ball licking comments and insults. Congratulations, you are the mental equalivent of a 4th grader.

At 3/26/07 05:39 PM, dsmking wrote: My school we do third degree testing close to that. As an instructor I'll probably have to right a 10 page paper on what I've learned through teaching and how it has affected my life.

Write, maybe? At your school? Fuck up sentence structure much? I don't think you would manage to pass a third grade literacy test dsm, let alone deserve any kind of black belt.

As an assholish, religiously one-sided, hell spawn I can tell you that I eat children as part of y
religion. Yes, yes, the countless unborn fetuses and children I have eaten over the years truly
proves how devotedly, and blindly, I follow my religion. Cause I mean what is religion but a
way to be an evil person.

Again trying to redirect real life issues with your trash talking. At least we agree you're an asshole. I don't doubt you do blindly follow your religion. Ever heard the god speak to you? If you have heard "god" talking to you dsm I'd go get checked for mental insanity people don't hear voices unless they're mentally diseased.

Cause men of the cloth who take vows of chastity, and poverty all just say that they do those
things to sucker more money out of people.

Wow you're actually right about one thing, religious leaders lie *gasp*.

Don't act as if I am oblivious to the evil things PEOPLE in religions have done. T hat does not
mean the religion is fucked up you religiously intolerant bastard. "A priest had sex with a
little boy" an atheist had sex with a little boy to but that doesn't mean all atheist are child
molesters. A priest stole money, an atheist robbed a bank and shot someone again that
doesn't mean they all did.

So all those crusades carried out by your religious leaders don't count? Hmm sure seems like most of the religion was behind that. Pretty hard to slaughter several hundred millions of innocent lives with just a few people. Maybe it was the hundreds of priests that were recently caught for child molestation that gives me the impression that most of your preachers are corrupt good for nothing hypocritical sleaze. Or maybe it's just because religious zealots like you are incapable of intelligent discussion.

Now little boy, and yes you are a little boy, due to your over generalization on the world and
beliefs you don't understand so you view them as wrong.

Do you think your condescending words bother me? You don't know me, don't presume to think I don't know anything about religion or understand it. I understand it too well is the problem.

So how bout this person who obvious feathers I don't ruffle but got him to write a longer post
than i actually felt like reading and was very obviously mad, suck my nuts, suck em good,
hard, hope you choke on em cause I don't want you to flap your mouth anymore. But heh if
you do, by your standards of priest molesting children and you obviously being a little boy, I
could be a priest.

You have no clue what you're talking about. You're proving me more right with every vulgar word you WRITE. Your internet "bad ass" attitude I'll bet makes you feel all macho, unfortunately all it's doing is making you out to look like a cretin - an undereducated cretin at that. I hope I didn't use any words too big for your brain to comprehend sometimes it's hard to dumb down my words enough for scum like you to understand what I'm saying. Just in case you think I'm actually mad let me reassure you that I'm laughing my ass off at your ineptitude to express yourself appropriately and your first grade understanding of the English language. QQ moar imo.

On the topic of religion: I've always been anti-religion. I've always held little but spite and disdain for it in my words and actions. In fact, I used to be the most militant anti-religious guy around. I also think that Satan and Rhae are going a little overboard with their accusations. I hate stupidity and mass-mind conformity as much as if not more than the next guy, but religion is not designed solely to take advantage of its subjects and give priests little boys to rape. Although it's unfortunate that things like fairy tales about the "son of god" and Muhammad's "desert visions" are where much of the populous of earth derive their hope, drive and direction in life, the fact of the matter is that religions DO do that for people. There is no denying that there is corruption, and especially in religion, but it's not the core of the whole. These days religion doesn't ruin lives, only stagnate them. There are no more crusades, there are no more spanish inquisitions, there are no more salem witch trials. I've met more cool christians than worthless ones, and although I find their beliefs to be whimsical fantasy, they adhere to them and it is a part of their life. If I had my way nobody would carry religious beliefs, but realistically that will never happen, so I find that the best thing to do is live and let live, only pulling out the whupass when someone tries to shove it down your throat.

Religion should have no part in the training of a martial art in a school, but an individual has every right to do what makes them happy on their own time.

I haven't been around here in a while, spring break has detracted my attentions from the internet, but I see that we've been making little ground about religion.

On topic (kind of): I was sparring with my friend and we didn't have protective gear, and he leaned into a punch, so what should have been a playful tap to the face became a broken nose. Lesson learned; Don't spar with people who can't fight with no pads.

At 3/22/07 12:28 PM, Monocrom wrote: Grab a Snickers bar, you're going to be reading this for awhile....

It's funny you say that because I was eating a snickers bar when I read this.

It seems I wasn't able to make my point,

But you were, and I agree with you to an extent. Religion is the partial cause of these peoples bad decisions, like I said religion isn't making the bad decisions.

To use an analogy; a guy reads in a book that a certain chemical will kill someone, so he uses his new found knowledge to kill someone with said chemical. Is it the books fault or is it the guys fault?

Besides, people are just as likely to have personal moral abjections as they are to have religious.

If religion somehow impedes the learning of martial arts then on an individual basis the person responsible either needs to re-think their beliefs or keep them private. But saying it's an all around bad idea I just can't agree with.

Got this idea from an Operator on a different discussion forum. He always wears a cup when out & about. Always!

What do you guys think of this idea?

Well if you live in a place where you think it's necessary then I suppose it's a good idea. And unless you don't find them uncomfortable like I do, I see no reason not to.... I guess....

Along the same lines why not just wear body armor when you go out? If your really that concerned or if you live in an area where it might actually come in handy that is.

------------

At 3/26/07 09:59 PM, Satanic-Samurai wrote: I do think it would be nice if we could get to a yes or no answer regarding religion in the martial arts. But since we all have such diverse opinions regarding religion I think this is going to be one of those topics that is going to be left unanswered. If you ask me we're better off dropping it than continuing a never ending debate. Let's just move on.

Actully, I thought it ended quite nicely. No definitive yes or no answers but then again we were both coming from different perspectives so I kinda knew that wasn't even possible. I thought it was a very reasonable conclusion :)

I'm sorry you haven't gotten the answer you were looking for. I have never trained, or even had an interest in learning Sai techniques. A while ago I did get curious and research the history of the weapon, but thats a far as my knowledge goes. Good luck finding what you're looking for.

Thanks :)
If you have the time and/or will I'd love to hear at least a general overview of the results of your research?

--------------

At 3/26/07 11:40 PM, Lagerkapo wrote: On topic (kind of): I was sparring with my friend and we didn't have protective gear, and he leaned into a punch, so what should have been a playful tap to the face became a broken nose. Lesson learned; Don't spar with people who can't fight with no pads.

Oooh, ouch. I usually just don't hit to the face... But I guess you could learn a lot of lessons from that :p

---------------

The conversation concerning religion and martial arts that I partook in and even encouraged to an extent is now over.

The conversation I see going on now is in no way related to martial arts and as such should not continue. If anyone feels the need to then there is this wonderful new system called the Private Message System, I would encourage it's use in this case. Not that I can really do anything about it if it is to continue but it just seems like there needs to be someone saying it.

So I shalll repeat, this time in bold letters so it seems more official :D

The current line of conversation concerning religion should NOT continue!

So please stop, or at the very least take it elsewhere for the sake of this club.

Hey people, I'm Adam and I just recently started shotokan. I might be grading in May though, so I hope it goes alright

At 3/26/07 11:59 PM, ThunderboltLegion wrote:

The current line of conversation concerning religion should NOT continue!

Agreed. As much as I do enjoy arguing religion I think the past couple posts hasn't involved martial arts in the least. I happily contributed to that but now I'm getting VERY sick of it.

I'd be happy to share what I learned about the Sai later when I have more time. :)

At 3/27/07 02:37 AM, gamelord64 wrote: Hey people, I'm Adam and I just recently started shotokan. I might be grading in May though, so I hope it goes alright

Sorry about the double guys but I just saw this.

Welcome, Adam. I'm satan. Good luck on your belt promotion. Why did you start training in martial arts?

From the looks of your screen name you sound like a gamer?

At 3/26/07 11:01 PM, Rhaeghar wrote:

At 3/26/07 05:39 PM, dsmking wrote: My school we do third degree testing close to that. As an instructor I'll probably have to right a 10 page paper on what I've learned through teaching and how it has affected my life.

Write, maybe? At your school? Fuck up sentence structure much? I don't think you would manage to pass a third grade literacy test dsm, let alone deserve any kind of black belt.

We're on the internet dude, chill out on the grammar points, or else you're gonna get busted for every single one you make. Unless you're one of those people who triple checks his posts thoroughly before posting, in which case, you have much bigger problems than grammar.

As an assholish, religiously one-sided, hell spawn I can tell you that I eat children as part of y
religion. Yes, yes, the countless unborn fetuses and children I have eaten over the years truly
proves how devotedly, and blindly, I follow my religion. Cause I mean what is religion but a
way to be an evil person.

Again trying to redirect real life issues with your trash talking. At least we agree you're an asshole. I don't doubt you do blindly follow your religion. Ever heard the god speak to you? If you have heard "god" talking to you dsm I'd go get checked for mental insanity people don't hear voices unless they're mentally diseased.

First off, commas much? Capitalization when needed? You rag on him about literacy and...what do you do? Oh well, guess hypocrites can't be argued with. And yes, i ended a sentence with the word with, sue me.

Cause men of the cloth who take vows of chastity, and poverty all just say that they do those
things to sucker more money out of people.

Wow you're actually right about one thing, religious leaders lie *gasp*.

So do atheists, anarchists, and everyone who exists, for that matter. You're not proving any points, just being an asshole. Lieing is a basic way people gain power in the world, a natural sin of man, if you will. Isn't that something religion teaches you? Oh i suppose it's not all bad then. Focus more on the teachings of religion than the people involved with them, which was of course, dsm's next point.

Don't act as if I am oblivious to the evil things PEOPLE in religions have done. T hat does not
mean the religion is fucked up you religiously intolerant bastard. "A priest had sex with a
little boy" an atheist had sex with a little boy to but that doesn't mean all atheist are child
molesters. A priest stole money, an atheist robbed a bank and shot someone again that
doesn't mean they all did.

So all those crusades carried out by your religious leaders don't count? Hmm sure seems like most of the religion was behind that. Pretty hard to slaughter several hundred millions of innocent lives with just a few people. Maybe it was the hundreds of priests that were recently caught for child molestation that gives me the impression that most of your preachers are corrupt good for nothing hypocritical sleaze. Or maybe it's just because religious zealots like you are incapable of intelligent discussion.

No, that's what happens when people take religion too far. Besides, haven't religious leaders condemned past acts their ancestors have committed? The Pope used to be in the Hitler yout hfor Christ's sake, and what has he done that represents Hitler's view so far? Stop blaming religion on people's bad behaviour and get things straight. The people in religion did the bad things, do you REALLY think the people who started these religions intended for these thigns to happen? No, people are just fucked up, and that's something you have to deal with.

Now little boy, and yes you are a little boy, due to your over generalization on the world and
beliefs you don't understand so you view them as wrong.

Do you think your condescending words bother me? You don't know me, don't presume to think I don't know anything about religion or understand it. I understand it too well is the problem.

You don't know him either, but you continue to presumehis intentions. I would like to ask a question, are you a therapist? If not, shut the fuck up about this issue immediately. And if so, shut the fuck up about this issue right now, real therapists would realize that saying 'that doesn't bother me' would be useless to say, and babyish. and you don't understand religion at all. In all the thousands of years of religion, do you REALLY think little punks like you didn't come along and go, "You're wrong, religion sucks."? Don't presume you know shit, that's not your evaluation to make.

So how bout this person who obvious feathers I don't ruffle but got him to write a longer post
than i actually felt like reading and was very obviously mad, suck my nuts, suck em good,
hard, hope you choke on em cause I don't want you to flap your mouth anymore. But heh if
you do, by your standards of priest molesting children and you obviously being a little boy, I
could be a priest.

You have no clue what you're talking about. You're proving me more right with every vulgar word you WRITE. Your internet "bad ass" attitude I'll bet makes you feel all macho, unfortunately all it's doing is making you out to look like a cretin - an undereducated cretin at that. I hope I didn't use any words too big for your brain to comprehend sometimes it's hard to dumb down my words enough for scum like you to understand what I'm saying. Just in case you think I'm actually mad let me reassure you that I'm laughing my ass off at your ineptitude to express yourself appropriately and your first grade understanding of the English language. QQ moar imo.

What the fuck was that last sentence? Anyways, do you understand how much you're just insulting yourself here? If you REALLY didn't give a shit what dsm thought, you wouldn't have bothered to reply you retarded asshole. And what makes you think dsm is only trying to insult you and make you feel bad, or make you mad? I know for a fact he gives shit one about you, or if you're pissed, so don't start wit hthat stupid arguement. Oh, and using big, unnecessary words doesn't make you sound smart, as you're apparently under the impression of. Oh, and by the way, i'm laughing my ass off too you know-it-all tard...and your run-on sentences still aren't proving your 'i'm smarterer than j00' point.

At 3/26/07 11:59 PM, ThunderboltLegion wrote: The current line of conversation concerning religion should NOT continue!

So please stop, or at the very least take it elsewhere for the sake of this club.

Sorry, just saw this, my bad. Course, if you haven't noticed, it's not about treligion anymore than it is that this guy's just proving himself to be an asshole. But of course, that's not your point now is it?

At 3/27/07 06:08 PM, BigLundi wrote:

Or maybe it's just because religious zealots like you are incapable of intelligent discussion.

No, that's what happens when people take religion too far.

This has gone too far, way too far when it no longer involves martial arts. What is goinjg to happen if we all keep this up is a Mod will drop by and someone will get banner - worst case scenario our club gets shut down because none of us can handle a discussion with a little maturity. Thunder, Rhae and I were having a very nice religious discussion and debating our points and individual beliefs. I saw nothing wrong with this until someone *not saying any names* came in here with the least bit of interest to add an intelligent point to our conversation and started telling people to lick his nuts.

This is now turning into a flame war similar to when I went off the deep end about dsm practicing "Cali" where we all get pissed off and nothing good comes out of it except for a pretty hateful grudge. I don't want to see that happen again so we should all shut the fuck up. Ganging up on one person who was defending himself is not going to fix anything.

I'm not going to get too bitchy if dsm wants to respond to Rhae or if Rhae would like to add his thoughts on the matter, but this needs to come to an end very quickly.