Audioforum Structure - Your Opinion

[Rucklo]

I just checked this thread, and a few things started to roll in my head. I'll take it from the top, though;

- The amount of users contributing to structure and order for the audio community here on Newgrounds, by using the relativley new blogging system have been increasing. Alot of really good, fun and useful lists have been made. The advantage with using the blogging system is that users can update them themselves, and make the "first page" up to date. It's alot nicer than having to check on "page 43 and scroll down" for the newest update.
We make this forum the way we want it, and these lists contain really valuable info that definitley should be stored on NG one way or another.

First off I would like to suggest a "Users list archive thread", where everyone of you who make good lists that frequently gets update a chanse to post the full list, say once/month. This would apart from giving some extra exposure for thel lists as they get updated, also keep a historic record of them. Who knows when you screw up and have your account deleted? ;)

Secondly, this would possibly help clean up the whole forum, and now I'm back to Rig's The Recommended Musicians thread that I mentioned at the start of this post.

Here's my initial opinion of the thread itself;

I don't want two similiar threads going on, and the difference between "underdog" and "recommended" is very very small. There is always the risk of threads like this turning out to be an alternative audio adv. thread, which is NOT wanted.

I would first like to know if MR is willing to continue the underdog-list, or if somone is willing to keep updating the list instead of him. Threads like that are a bit more difficult to moderate, nad they pretty much must be kept clean, unless things will slip into shit. In these cases, it is important that topicstarter have contact with a mod (not nessecarily me, but it would make sense since I'm the only active bbs mod in here) and they co-operate to keep it clean and on topic.
The thread is well thought out, and looks nice, but still I don't want to moderate too many similiar threads. The "recommended" thread I am doubtful about... it's virtually an audio adv. thread in disguise. Our profiles also have "favourite" section for audio. Though I can think of many good reasons to have a list like this as well, I stil am hesitant.

I have now temporarily locked that thread, and would like to have some opinions and similiar of how this forum should be structured. Maybe somone have an awesome idea that we should work out?

My personal suggestion is that MaestroRage's "underdog" thread stays for this reason, and that one or more users help out updating it, if MR ain't around to do it himself. If the updates are newspost-based, we could use a future "newspost archive thread" for a historic record for this.

So yeah, opinions, shits and giggle in this thread, pl0x, both regarding Rig's thread and structure generally! It's my hope that we together can work things out, to make the best of this forum. Othervice, OH NOES TEH HUMANITY!!!!!1 >:(

10.

[Phoog]

Yeah, thanks for locking Rig's thread as I was writing my totally awesome-o-sauras post of a post. :'(
But I agree with the point you made about it being another audio adv. thread in disguise.

I'm not quite sure wether or not I see the point in a recomendation thread. On the one hand, it's good for boosting the scores on the better submitions, getting people to focus on the whole of the audio portal rather than just their own work. But then again, if they wern't going to do that in the first place, why would they read a recomendation thread at all?
It could, however, be good for broadening people's tastes in music aswell. Which is always a good thing to do.

I think a thread like that would have only a certain small amount of people from the AP who'd veiw it frequently, and only a bit more who'd visit it from time to time.

On the subject of using newposts, all I really have to say is it'd get annoying to keep jumping from person's profile to profile to then just click more links to listen to stuff, but on the other hand it'd get annoying being in a mile long thread with loads of huge lists of orange text D:

[jnry3]

Well, first off, the Recommended Artists List and the Underdogs List must have a clearer set of guidelines. These lists are good since NGers get to share artists that they find good (which addresses the loophole of the zero vote -- the douchebags kill potential artists to oblivion). As much as I hate to admit it, it's easier to see who's on top of the pile than the ones in between, and searching is just too damn tedious.

I suggest having a posting limit to once a week per forumer with only one recommended artist and once a week per artist for these lists. This should give the artist enough marketing without having to go through the case of FatKidWitAJetPak and his gang in the Underdogs List. So why once a week per forumer as well? Just so as not to clog the threads up.

I think the true intentions of both the Recommended List and the Underdogs List are:
1. to express the opinion of a user on which artists are good via a third person (no self-nominations -- that defeats the purpose of the said threads), and,
2. to expose "hiding" artists.

Since the intentions are the same (please object if I'm wrong), unifying these two threads would be the best solution.

[Rucklo]

Forgot to link to this in the opening post; http://rig.newgrounds.com/news/post/5164 4

This is an excellent example that shows not only Rig's helpful newsposts, but others as well, and its all very much audio related. Since these newsposts keep get updated, the "archive" thread would serve as - an archive, simply.

Recommendation-thread, underdog thread etc. need to have SIMPLE rules, othervice they wont be followed, since I dont have the time going through everyting every day to keep things nice and clean. More rules = more time to keep clean, also to many rules for posting in a thread scares ppl away easily.

The current audio adv. thread IS a dump. I personally DO find myself browising through it from time to time, but still, it's first post is badly structured. I like the underdog thread, it serves a slightly different purpose, and I am definitley interested in what other ppl think is good music on this site, but I think there may be better ways than the recommendation thread if newsblogs were used in a creative way.
Basicly what I'm talking about is a better controlled way of showcasing what's good on the forum, and what's good on blogspots. Initially I think the sticky really need an update, but it'd be easier to put good threads there if we can structure the forum better. :)

[Rig]

I was all "aww" when I saw my thread was locked. But I can see your point.

I made that new thread because the Underdog list was getting filled with people (FatKid especially) advertising themselves. (Yes, I DID link to myself once, many moons ago. But not excessively. Anyways...)

I believe there should be a place in this forum to let everyone else know about lesser-known musicians. Like I stated in my thread, most of us (including me) focus way too much on ourselves. We want people to vote on us, review us, put us in the top 5. Self-obsession does not a healthy community make. We need interact with each other, spread our votes around the portal to people who truly deserve it. Cheesy as it sounds, I wanted that thread to be a place for us to expand our musical horizons, not just a "here's my favourite musician" thread.

Yes, I realize that we have our own favourites list on our pages. But not EVERYTHING needs to stay in our news posts! I'm not going to browse around everyone's profiles to see what they like. A central place is what's needed. It's easier for everyone, and the artists posted get more exposure.

Alright, when I started writing this post, there were no replies. Now there are. Lemme respond to some of your posts...

jnry3 - I suggest having a posting limit to once a week per forumer with only one recommended artist and once a week per artist for these lists.

That's a pretty good idea. Combined with detailed reasons as to why people should check them out, it would be effective.

Gorglore - On the one hand, it's good for boosting the scores on the better submitions, getting people to focus on the whole of the audio portal rather than just their own work. But then again, if they wern't going to do that in the first place, why would they read a recomendation thread at all?

I'm pretty sure they'd check to see if anyone's recommending them, lol. But yeah, I see your point.

jnry3 - I think the true intentions of both the Recommended List and the Underdogs List are:
1. to express the opinion of a user on which artists are good via a third person (no self-nominations -- that defeats the purpose of the said threads), and,
2. to expose "hiding" artists.

Precisely. There's a LOT more on the AP than meets the eye (or the ear). Why not let everyone know about your findings?

I think that having an AP treasure hunt would be amazing, btw. I know there was a MAC in the past that required you to post other people's music - maybe we could do it again.

[Quarl]

My personal opinion on the matter is that the underdog thread went to hell because it wasn't being checked up on and moderated, which is a claim I bet you think is wrong but give me the chance to defend my point here. Had the thread been better moderated the self nomination rule would have been mentioned along with the rule that self nominations must have been seconded by another user. Also, we would have seen more list updates. How can anyone love a thread when the person who started it abandons it? No offense to maestro or any of the mods, you guys are great, but I don't feel like the actions that have been taken were the right ones.

I'm not trying to make a stab at the moderators, as I understand there's only so many of you, but I kind of feel like you locking that thread, if only temporarily, was uncalled for and somewhat irrelevant. Rig's thread didn't really break any rules, and it wasn't like it was a second under dog list. It was a new thread that in my opinion vastly improved upon the underdog list in all aspects without actually having been some sort of Version 2.0. It was probably the first advertisement thread that no mater what, could not result in self whoring (which is kind of false. Users can always create multiple accounts, or have their friends talk about them, but there's no denying that Rig's thread is much better structured to avoid abuse.) Also, to make the statement that users don't read/ look into those advertisements is false. I've found so many great artists here through the ad threads. I check up on them frequently, and I love hearing new artists. I have 13 hours worth of newgrounds material in my iTunes which is more than half of the total amount of music I have in iTunes. (I own a lot of cds, but I haven't uploaded them yet seeing as how I'll probably never listen to them.) Whose to say that the advertisement threads are worthless?

Checking up on the underdog list, I'll be honest, if you look on the first page of the list, I advertise myself, but I kind of regret that now. If I could have seen where the thread was going at the time, I wouldn't have done that. In defense of my post however, I made sure to nominate several other users, and my request upon myself was seconded by maestro himself. I feel as if that thread had potential and had actually started out on the right foot, but things really went downhill there. Lets make the statement that every self nomination in that thread, actually belongs in the advertisement thread. With that in mind, I can say that about 5 or 6 pages of that thread shouldn't exist because most of it is "listen to me." If anything, the underdog list should have been locked, not Rig's thread. Rig's thread was shiny and new and nothing was wrong with it. While the underdog list started out on the right foot, there's no denying now that it just isn't what it wanted to be. It's been sapped, leached and raped. Salvation for that thread only exists now through the concerted effort of everyone reading this thread, but it just seems like it's unlikely that it can be salvaged. It's a self advertisement thread now, as it's always been. The only difference between the thread now and when it was conceived, is that now, for some reason, the thread is a complete hell hole.

Another comment I'd like to make is on the advertisement thread itself. For a while, a few users were trying to implement a change to the system by asking all users to review the two songs before their posts. This was a great idea, one that I continue to follow every time I post a new song in that thread, but the concept really faded away. I think that the old ad thread should be locked, and a new one created to replace it, one that encourages users to acknowlage their peers. Though it seems like a waist to just lock a thread as established as that one. I don't know, it's just a thought. There's no doubt in my mind that the audio portal needs a more coherent advertisements system. There's so much talent here, so much art, so much sound that just goes to waist.

Hmmm, I'm sorry if this post is long and or confusing, but it was improvised and unedited meaning you get my raw opinions in there. This is a really touchy subject, so no doubt some of my views will be disregarded, but whose to say that everyones opinion isn't in some way, shape or form correct. LOVE!

[ShinDenjin]

At 1/15/08 03:03 PM, Quarl wrote: ALOT of stuff that'll take too long to really dissect.

I'm on those lines as well... Although I make it a point to only self whore myself by voting key tracks up that I know will get some attention (it's a hit-miss thing).

The Old Adv. Thread in my view does need to be taken out and replaced. Call it what it is, but it's getting a little out of hand.

The underdog list, thanks to Fatkid, has really gone to the shitter. Initially, I thought it would be nice to nominate folks that need the attention they deserve, but it's degraded to just glorifying one user, and that's totally unfair. I look at it now like a clone of the Garageband thread, which needs to be restructured to reflect an actual discussion of the program itself, like FL, ACID, Reason etc.

Speaking of which, why not create a thread that covers the basics of every program available? It could be stickied so we'll have a reference point for the stuff we use and/or get hints to using one program in conjunction with another. And since it's stickied, we won't have to worry about the thread disappearing into the depths of BBS Oblivion.

Just a couple of thoughts into the matter...

... oh and viva rule 10... whatever it is =p

totally in the dark about it but will bandwagon to keep it alive XD

[wyldfyre1]

I think one of the problem with the original underdog forum was that people were allowed to vote for themselves i mean in the long run if people really want to they can make ALT accounts and do it anyway.

[Rucklo]

If it wasn't for the fact that newsposts give a whole new dimension of possibilities, Rig's thread probably would stay locked with a reference to the audio adv. thread and the underdog thread. The underdog thread is IMO a better idea, but just ain't carried out anymore.

Sure, Rig's thread is new and shiny now, but at the time so was the underdog thread. Like Quarl say, there are only so many moderators around here - effectivley I am the only who actually mods this place, so ultimatley you're gonna have to listen to what I say >:)
Point is that I don't belive in it 100% the way it's made now, with the Underdog thread as a reference of "how it turned out".

The whole reason for this thread is though that I'm only a mod, that means I'm a user like everyone else who have been assigned to keep the place clean. The rules is my prio one, but I see nothing wrong in attempting to structure the place a bit better, so that everyone can be happy in the end. Some of you guys contribute alot to NG outside making music and submitting, and I only think it's fair to let as many as possible in on the "decition" making when it comes to these major things.
Still, in the end, if a thread is made with set "thread rules", they must be uphold for the thread not to fall into chaos. When somone makes a thread like the Underdog list, I expect the users involved themselves to keep an extra eye of the thread, and report abuse if I don't deal with it. This is the reason why the underdog-thread turned shitty, when it's up and active on the first page I only browse it for BBS rules that ahve been broken, since I expect users to notify me when things is shit, or if something needs to be dealt with that I've missed or so.

Like I've said, its OUR forum (well, NG's ultimatley, but we make the forum happen:), and even if it ultimatley lies on the mods to keep the forum clean, it's up to the users to help out, especially if thread-specific rules are being made.

It's important that it's understood that I can't keep everything clean all the time, I have school and soon a 50% job that needs to be dealt with, along with a body that needs constant trimming (no, I'm not one of the fat sit-around mods:)

With this thread I would like more opinions and suggestions of how lists etc. could be dealt with, perhaps by using the newspost-spot effectivley. I personally want a thread with as little thread-specific rules as possible, for my own good, and because it's a pain in the ass if a n00b comes in and post two posts in a "list" thread, even though only one was allowed! TEH HORROR!!!

For you who are involved and wanna make this forum a better place, here's an oppurtunity to shine.

My suggestion about an archive system still stands, like Shin says, some of them newsposts deserve their own threads and maybe even stickied (but it's a longer way to sticky unfortunatley).

A similiar "archive styled" system could very well be implemented for lists. Perhaps this is where an actual "one post/moth" rule could be applied, users who put effort into their search and artists that they want to share with the rest of us could be posted, like a weekly/monthly "NG AP toplist". One list could be made out of new submissions only, one could be genre/style specific (something that I know flash authors would love). if you come up with something, pitch your idea here (or if you wanna send me a PM that's fine too). Like I've pointed out though, ultimatley you will need my support for a thing like this, simpmly because I can't be everywhere all the time (ffs, i'm gone two days and the whole forum falls apart... wtf? new years eve...).

AP Frontpage "best evar" list in all respect, it still is an automated system that represent noones actual taste. The system isnt as sophisticated as the flash system is (yet?), so that's why it fails (not that hard, but enough).

[Nav]

At 1/15/08 03:03 PM, Quarl wrote: Another comment I'd like to make is on the advertisement thread itself. For a while, a few users were trying to implement a change to the system by asking all users to review the two songs before their posts. This was a great idea, one that I continue to follow every time I post a new song in that thread, but the concept really faded away. I think that the old ad thread should be locked, and a new one created to replace it, one that encourages users to acknowlage their peers. Though it seems like a waist to just lock a thread as established as that one. I don't know, it's just a thought. There's no doubt in my mind that the audio portal needs a more coherent advertisements system. There's so much talent here, so much art, so much sound that just goes to waist.

A problem with the Advertisement, a huge problem in fact, is that just anyone can go, and without having to do anything else, say "LOOK AT MY MUSIC!" And post a link to the song. I am all for good artists trying to get exposure, but this has just gone to hell. I don't want to hear some shitty FL Preset song, when the guy above him was a professional-level producer, but was broadcasting the same message. It gets somewhat annoying, ya know?

I think that the overall system for getting your music out was flawed. I like how the front-page news posts were changed, but I am unclear about how to actually get myself on the list of "able users" and what criteria apply to those. Personally, I think that the audio front page gives a good opportunity to get listens, but with the redesign, all of the new artists posts on the audio front page just gets completely overtaken by the top 30 list. I mean, why would a common user even listen to the new songs, if they can just listen to the top 30, or even just the top 5, instead? That is what makes the audio front page flawed. I appreciate the work that the staff put into it, but it's just, as my social studies teacher would call it, a means to an end. That end is near.

I'll toss a few ideas around here. How about two levels of validation? Where you are judged based on some objective criteria, and if your audio meets the criteria, then you get like a "level 2" validation, allowing you to post in an alternative audio forum, or something like that. The Lifted Music Forum has something with the same nature as this, called "The Studio." To get in, you need to submit your music, and they'll take a look. If you're good enough, then you can read and post production tips, etc. I bet that it doesn't get spammed, and is a useful resource for aspiring artists. The current AF seems to be the opposite of that, where people come here if what they want has "audio" in it. I think that Newgrounds needs to realize the direction that the AP took. Originally, as shown by the AF description, the AF was meant for people to discuss recording techniques. This shows that the NG Admins thought that the AF would be mostly acoustic based. It turned out to be the opposite, and I think that a little recognition of the fact that we mostly make electronic music could go a long way in preventing "YOUR FAVE BAND?!!/11/1" Threads.

That's just my 2 (or 3) cents.

[Suspended-3rd-Chord]

Another comment I'd like to make is on the advertisement thread itself. For a while, a few users were trying to implement a change to the system by asking all users to review the two songs before their posts. This was a great idea, one that I continue to follow every time I post a new song in that thread, but the concept really faded away. I think that the old ad thread should be locked, and a new one created to replace it, one that encourages users to acknowlage their peers. Though it seems like a waist to just lock a thread as established as that one. I don't know, it's just a thought. There's no doubt in my mind that the audio portal needs a more coherent advertisements system. There's so much talent here, so much art, so much sound that just goes to waist.

I'm glad that someone brought this up. I'm one of the few that actually followed (I hate to say it that way) that rule every time I advertised a track in that topic and made sure to review the two people above me. I'm not complaining from a personal stance, as I enjoy reviewing other's people's work and many times people kindly return them (and I've never had to ask). But from just browsing alone, it's common that people pass up other's music- and when I post in that topic I check back and see that the two users below me commonly do not bother to follow the rules.

Also, another problem in that thread is that there is one user in that topic that posts his same track 5+ times within the topic. He is courteous enough to leave other people and return reviews, but I could see how that would be frustrating if he was "stealing" a potential review from another user. There should be a limit on how many times you can post a single track in that topic. If you don't recieve any reviews; that's another story though but he gets plenty.

It's not like there's any criteria or required length for leaving a comment, you can just point out a few points in the track that you like/dislike. Shouldn't take a whole lot of time. If you expect reviews, you should leave reviews too.

Really though-it's not like there's a blatant statement somewhere in the thread stating "review the two users above you" so it's easy to pass up.

A problem with the Advertisement, a huge problem in fact, is that just anyone can go, and without having to do anything else, say "LOOK AT MY MUSIC!" And post a link to the song. I am all for good artists trying to get exposure, but this has just gone to hell. I don't want to hear some shitty FL Preset song, when the guy above him was a professional-level producer, but was broadcasting the same message. It gets somewhat annoying, ya know?

Yeah, get out with that elitism. If he/she doesn't review the above person, I can understand where you are coming from (and hey, I do understand that it happens) But I sincerely hope you don't decide to review a user because they don't know how to make their synths from scratch. Without pointing out flaws in someone's track, how do you expect them to get better? As ridiculous as this may be, I had no idea using Sytrus presets was considered shitty until I joined newgrounds.

I think that the overall system for getting your music out was flawed. I like how the front-page news posts were changed, but I am unclear about how to actually get myself on the list of "able users" and what criteria apply to those. Personally, I think that the audio front page gives a good opportunity to get listens, but with the redesign, all of the new artists posts on the audio front page just gets completely overtaken by the top 30 list. I mean, why would a common user even listen to the new songs, if they can just listen to the top 30, or even just the top 5, instead? That is what makes the audio front page flawed. I appreciate the work that the staff put into it, but it's just, as my social studies teacher would call it, a means to an end. That end is near.

Of course the top 30 list is going to get the most listens. They deserve it (I guess that's subjective)
from the votes they get. I never rarely see reappearing tracks on the top 30, Paragonx9's "chaos fantasy" might come back every now and then, but generally they're all new tracks, from a variety of artists and styles.

(sorry that was a bit off topic)

I do see where you are coming from though, and now I do kinda agree. A top 30 chart is indeed good, but maybe not on the front page. That would certainly generate more recognition on the new tracks but may not be as attractive for people who come here for the "hit" tracks.

I'll toss a few ideas around here. How about two levels of validation? Where you are judged based on some objective criteria, and if your audio meets the criteria, then you get like a "level 2" validation, allowing you to post in an alternative audio forum, or something like that. The Lifted Music Forum has something with the same nature as this, called "The Studio." To get in, you need to submit your music, and they'll take a look. If you're good enough, then you can read and post production tips, etc. I bet that it doesn't get spammed, and is a useful resource for aspiring artists. The current AF seems to be the opposite of that, where people come here if what they want has "audio" in it. I think that Newgrounds needs to realize the direction that the AP took. Originally, as shown by the AF description, the AF was meant for people to discuss recording techniques. This shows that the NG Admins thought that the AF would be mostly acoustic based. It turned out to be the opposite, and I think that a little recognition of the fact that we mostly make electronic music could go a long way in preventing "YOUR FAVE BAND?!!/11/1" Threads.

Not a bad idea, but it doesn't seem like the AP forum is that out of hand. Maybe I just don't come here enough.

[Erkie]

Few of these concepts have merit. The rest of them scream for attention.

What's next? Formal awards ceremonies? Genre guilds? Master judging panels?

[ShinDenjin]

My suggestion about an archive system still stands, like Shin says, some of them newsposts deserve their own threads and maybe even stickied (but it's a longer way to sticky unfortunatley).

Is there a way to put that on the fastrack? If there is, I'll start working on getting a basic faq up. Information and other contributions are always nice ^_^

[Rig]

At 1/15/08 06:02 PM, ShinDenjin wrote:

...some of them newsposts deserve their own threads and maybe even stickied (but it's a longer way to sticky unfortunatley).

Is there a way to put that on the fastrack? If there is, I'll start working on getting a basic faq up. Information and other contributions are always nice ^_^

Yes, a new audio sticky would be awesome. It would be fantastic if we could all work together and come up with the best FAQ ever!

bumpo

[Rig]

bump

Is my thread gonna stay locked?

[Rucklo]

At 1/20/08 06:00 PM, Rig wrote: bump

Is my thread gonna stay locked?

OM sent. And by OM I mean PM. Gonna try to respond to some things in this thread later on today, I haven't forgotten about it. :)

[Buoy]

At 1/21/08 05:19 AM, Rucklo wrote:

At 1/20/08 06:00 PM, Rig wrote: bump

Is my thread gonna stay locked?

OM

Overpersonal message- just a little too personal

[Rig]

At 1/21/08 08:23 AM, SBB wrote:

At 1/21/08 05:19 AM, Rucklo wrote: OM

Overpersonal message- just a little too personal

No, it was juuuust right. ;)

[loogiesquared]

a way to edit posts ould be nice
(and change from TomFulp's version of HTML to a CCDE format)
[img]imageurl[/img]
[b]bold text[/b]
[url=http://w/e]TEXT[/url]
ect.

[Erkie]

This is audio forum structure. Not NG BBS structure.