At 12/31/12 02:53 PM, sweet21 wrote:

At 12/31/12 02:24 PM, tsukikomi wrote:

At 12/31/12 01:03 AM, sweet21 wrote: It was actually because games back then games were still anywhere from $40-$50 and the hardware didn't allow developers to make super massive games. Nobody wanted to buy a game they could beat in 10 minutes. So they compensated with insane difficulty or 'padding'.

And games today cost $50-$60 are majority of them are easy.

Again, not really easier, just better designed, for the most part. Games now a days dont have to compensate anymore, the hardware is there to make massive worlds and lots of levels. Games like Skyrim are well worth the money.

Dark Souls is similar to Skyrim in that it takes place in an open world and features lots of gameplay, yet it actually provides a good amount of challenge. It has a great combat system and can't be said to be poorly designed, I don't see how easier = better designed.

I suppose from a design standpoint open world games have to be easier.

No they don't.

As a whole though, its same as back them. Some games are hard, some games are not. Mario has definitely been dumbed down, they think all their players have down syndrome or something, but, not everything else.

More like most games were hard back then and now most games are easy. Not only mario but every game series has become easier, they even fucked up Ninja gaiden with Ninja gaiden 3.

It's harder to make a hard but fun game than an easy game. Relating easy with well designed made me die a little inside.

At 1/1/13 01:43 AM, Jin wrote: Relating easy with well designed made me die a little inside.

everyone seems to have misinterpreted what I said.

So... I'm going to take this time to complain about the same thing.

Take Uncharted:
Uncharted is a game, a Third-Person shooter game, where terrain matters... For the most part. When you die, it isn't because you suck (most of the time), it's because you didn't do the objective in the way the game wanted you to. Thus resulting in anger and frustration. Especially in that GD Crushing mode.

Now Take Rayman Origins:
Rayman Origins is a Platforming game that can be played with up to three other players and challenges and provokes you to try your hardest to 100% the game. After you come to what seems like the final level, the game tells you to find the kings and adds DOUBLE the levels the map had in the first place. The game also has "Treasure Chase" levels which helps you improve your speedrunning and proves a worthy challenge for any Vets.

Whoever gets the point I'm trying to make, kudos to you.

At 1/1/13 01:23 AM, Austerity wrote: That's why I only stick with the games of olde

How old are we talking about exactly like all the way down to the 5th or 6th generation?

At 1/2/13 06:55 PM, argile wrote:

At 1/1/13 01:23 AM, Austerity wrote: That's why I only stick with the games of olde

How old are we talking about exactly like all the way down to the 5th or 6th generation?

you'd be neglecting yourself on some newer things if you just stay with previous play things

At 1/5/13 12:34 AM, ClockworkSpace wrote: You've obviously never heard of Dark Souls.

Because one game = this generation of games.

There's no denying that games today are too damn easy. I was able to whip through Borderlands 1 pretty easily a while ago, and Portal 2 was just simplistic.

I'd like to see today's kids try to last one minute in Doom 64 or Disruptor for the PS1. Those are some real shooters. Good luck trying to get 120 stars on Super Mario 64 and beating Adventure of Link or Battletoads.

At my age, even I can't get through games like ESWAT for the Sega Genesis or Streets of Rage for my Game Gear.

At 1/5/13 02:24 AM, Squidbit wrote:

At 1/5/13 12:34 AM, ClockworkSpace wrote: You've obviously never heard of Dark Souls.

Because one game = this generation of games.

Sure as hell was the case for mario bros 3.

At 1/5/13 10:42 PM, sweet21 wrote:

At 1/5/13 02:24 AM, Squidbit wrote:

At 1/5/13 12:34 AM, ClockworkSpace wrote: You've obviously never heard of Dark Souls.

Because one game = this generation of games.

Sure as hell was the case for mario bros 3.

Even though you could beat the game in 15 min by using the double flute cheat but still takes more skill then the new super mario bros since its basically a copy of smb3.

This isn't a theory, this is a fact.

This generations games are "Dumbed down" to the point of boredom. With very few exceptions such as Capcom, Atlus and Nintendo, Game developers have fallen prey to the modern gaming epidemic that is Mainstream gaming.
Today, we have millions of gamers buying into the market. Everyone from youngsters to people like my 50 years old father buying Forza 57.
Everyone owns a game console or a Steam account these days. Every single household has some sort of modern gaming medium within it.
Because of this "Mainstream" gaming, we now have people of ALL skill levels playing many of the same games. Now, having lived in a house with a few guys, all gamers (Some MUCH better than others ). I've seen what developers have tried to accomplish due to this massive mix of skills.
All right, let's say that I got one of my buddies, whom of which is a huge CoD player to play one of my favorites, Mega Man X.
Most of us here know that Mega Man X isn't the hardest game out there ( Like my other SNES fav. Super Ghouls and Ghosts) but, to someone who has somehow, NEVER played it, this 16 bit mech-frag-fest can be VERY difficult.
Where as he is used to playing through a game, shooting Russian extra #376 over and over again, with no repercussions for his careless run into harms way, Mega Man X requires a bit of thinking, a lot of timing, learning, ease, control and a bit of focus. To anyone with any amount of time spent gaming in any real sense of the word, this wouldn't be a problem. But, as with him, his gaming is modern, and he's used to having infinite continues, mindless shooting, senseless running, millions of meaningless shoot outs... this is an alien concept to him.
I once watched him play Trails HD for over an hour, screaming at the screen ( hilariously I might add ). After cursing his way through the various stages, he reached the dreaded final challenge. We all know the one, you know, the two hours worth of trying, learning, failing stage, yeah, that fuck show. Well, The reason he had raged so hard throughout the game was due to the fact that he wanted to play it like every other game he's ever played involving any sort of engine. Mash the gas and fuck you if you say breaks! He pressed as hard as he could, thinking as always that speed was the answer, it's about the end, not the time you spend playing and the skills you learn. In the end, after 50 some-what-odd tries, he was so pissed that he actually deleted the game from his Xbox and demanded a refund from XBL. (Not the developers)
This just proves a point, with games like Trails out there, games that can not only be extremely challenging, but beyond satisfying once completed, the modern gamer masses don't know how to handle it at all. They think the point is just to rush to the end and watch the final showdown play out in video. Rather than actually have the satisfaction of struggling through a game like Mega Man X, collecting, learning, trying, dying and eventually beating the "Boss".
Most "gamers" out there today do not have the attention span or patience to handle a hardcore game. You know, one worth beating and bragging about.
Egoraptor said it best.
Fine desert.
Or you can just be a pig and eat it all.

This is the issues with modern gaming. People just want it and want it now. ( Look at CoD BlackOps 2 a.k.a CoD Zombiehunter 2 feat. and story no one cares about)

At 1/6/13 02:56 AM, Lurid138 wrote: This isn't a theory, this is a fact.

Let's go through your big-ass wall of text, shall we?

This generations games are "Dumbed down" to the point of boredom. With very few exceptions such as Capcom, Atlus and Nintendo, Game developers have fallen prey to the modern gaming epidemic that is Mainstream gaming.

You can't really put Nintendo or even Capcom outside of the "mainstream", especially since that they do just that in their games, and in the case of Nintendo, to the point where it is dumbed down greatly, at least in most of their games.

Today, we have millions of gamers buying into the market.

And what's wrong with that? You need to make many different types of games to attract as much people to a medium as possible.

:Everyone from youngsters to people like my 50 years old father buying Forza 57.

If people like a certain genre/franchise, then they'll keep making it, simple as that. Why deny the masses what they want?

Everyone owns a game console or a Steam account these days. Every single household has some sort of modern gaming medium within it.

Your point being?

Because of this "Mainstream" gaming, we now have people of ALL skill levels playing many of the same games. Now, having lived in a house with a few guys, all gamers (Some MUCH better than others ). I've seen what developers have tried to accomplish due to this massive mix of skills.

Just like what I said earlier, more people means that they will be more types of games available at different levels of difficulty.

Where as he is used to playing through a game, shooting Russian extra #376 over and over again, with no repercussions for his careless run into harms way, Mega Man X requires a bit of thinking, a lot of timing, learning, ease, control and a bit of focus.

Oh, so you want a cookie for playing Mega Man X instead of COD over and over again, {never mind the fact that these two franchises are oh-so-similar in some ways.} that still doesn't prove anything, and if anything, this seems to hint on having an old-school bias.

This just proves a point, with games like Trails out there, games that can not only be extremely challenging, but beyond satisfying once completed, the modern gamer masses don't know how to handle it at all. They think the point is just to rush to the end and watch the final showdown play out in video. Rather than actually have the satisfaction of struggling through a game like Mega Man X, collecting, learning, trying, dying and eventually beating the "Boss".

Yes, because struggling to beat a game with no real incentive other than seeing the ending is much more satisfying than whatever we have today. You do realize that there are radical shifts on game design and audience the last 20 years or so, right?

Not saying that you have a point or that all of said shifts were a good thing per se, but as an industry, they have to adapt from the old ways, and adjust from the new. That's why they made games with password saves in the past, then it's save points/checkpoints later on, so nobody has to repeat playing the game from the beginning if they screw up on the final level or whenever.

Most "gamers" out there today do not have the attention span or patience to handle a hardcore game. You know, one worth beating and bragging about.

Here we go with this "hardcore" game argument, which is about as shallow as the hardcore gamer argument. These are simply labels that fanboys and hipsters like to put on a game, just so they can be all badass about having or beating that game, and put others down for not getting or even trying the game, even if they have no interest in playing that game in the first place. I love old-school games as much as the next person, but that era of gaming has a lot of flaws as well, and as an industry, they have long evolved from that point.

The point I'm trying to make is that games and gamers are much different now than it was in the past, and trying to think that the old-school games are superior because of difficulty is so much higher is absolutely egregious. Now if you happen to enjoy said old-school games for the challenge or whatever reason, more power to you, but don't go around casting aspersions on modern games for being different, or in some cases better than it was in the past.

There are a decent amount of challenging games today, {that's not including games with the expert/hard difficulties as an option} you simply need to know where to look.

Of course the difficulty is easier now. The major factor of that being the use of checkpoints now in most major games. Once there was a time when you couldn't even save your progress and when you used your 3 or 5 lives that was it, game over, back to the start. Games now are so much easier because when you make a mistake its ok. You can keep doing it in fact until you get it right because you won't go back far when you die. Back then, you had to be much sharper and when you did make a mistake, you knew intensely that you could not make another.

At 1/6/13 06:27 PM, Gagsy wrote: Of course the difficulty is easier now. The major factor of that being the use of checkpoints now in most major games. Once there was a time when you couldn't even save your progress and when you used your 3 or 5 lives that was it, game over, back to the start. Games now are so much easier because when you make a mistake its ok. You can keep doing it in fact until you get it right because you won't go back far when you die. Back then, you had to be much sharper and when you did make a mistake, you knew intensely that you could not make another.

When we were younger we didn't care so much about being unable to win as well, as the going back to the start of the game upon gameover thing pretty much made me feel like I got as far as I could. But when you do have that option to return you feel more of a need to win. If you don't win at that point then it feels a lot worse than if you didn't if there was no check points. Over time that pretty much seemed to make us more caring to win games than to just enjoy them.

So apparently the guys making Bioshock Infinite also think this generation of games is dumbed down. I was just looking at the steam page for it, and in the key features, they have a "1999 mode" for after you beat the game.

1999 Mode - Upon finishing BioShock Infinite, the player can unlock a game mode called âEUoe1999 ModeâEU that gives experienced players a taste of the kind of design and balance that hardcore gamers enjoyed back in the 20th century.

I'd like to see today's kids try to last one minute in Doom 64

lol that game was easy.

I don't know about you guys, but I prefer a more fulfilling story experience like Ocarina of time that has a right amount of difficulty, I hate poorly designed games where they just spam enemies at you, like Doom 2, this is what i'm getting from this thread.

Games where designed to be harder otherwise you would've finished them in minutes hell most nes/snes games took about 15 - 30minutes to beat it only took longer cause they had arcade money pinching design"Purposely design to kill you and make you restart the whole level" once lives are depleted straight back to stage fucking one which most last levels where design to be even extra hard to make this happen to extend the games play time game design back then was just straight up dirty and cheap, but hey still enjoyed it but not way I feel like going back and playing any sega/snes games.

As for the psone/64 era of console gaming games finally got saves checkpoints and what not but still had a somewhat high difficulty design to extend the shortness of most of the games and featured lots of collectables to extend play time/ make you want to replay it and get 100% to unlock cool items.

Now onto PS2/gamecube/xbox certainly games where easier but they had the hard difficulty so if you wanted a challenge you could but since arcades had pretty much died games became more about telling storys and giving unique experiences and enriched worlds then just money pinching arcade design to extend play, games no longer needed this design.

Finally the PS3/Wii/360 games once again still offer higher difficulties for those liking a challenge although it's disappointing that they chose to do it in an arcade type way and force you to play through once to unlock the hardest difficulty it should be there available from the start, also games now focus way more on story and worlds than ever before with long 6 - 10 - 30 hour stories and even longer now imagine games with that length having the arcade style getting 10 - 30hours into a game only to run out of lives and go right back to the start that would def not make you want to play again for some time.

Games aren't dumbed down they just have difficulty settings now so if you want a challenge or just want to enjoy the games/stories you can.