If you start a religion war.. well I'll start crying. Yeah.

For people who believe there is no higher power, no great authority, no God, etc, etc, why do you have morals? In fact, how did morality come about?

If you believe you just 'happened', then why the hell can't you do what you want, instead of following 'morals' set out by man?

I'm continuously confused about this, someone explain.

If I act like an upstanding citizen then I will be viewed by others as such.

Therefore I will not have to deal with the repercussions of following no moral, or ethical code.

At 12/2/07 10:53 PM, McJesus wrote: I'm continuously confused about this, someone explain.

Personal validation is not only a function of the religious, but of all human beings.

Because being moral and being ethical are 2 completely different things. People that get their sense of right and wrong from religion are considered moral. Those, some being atheists, that get their sense of right and wrong from society's judgment is considered ethical. Don't confuse the 2. And seriously, just because we don't believe in a higher power DOES NOT mean we believe life is a free-for-all.

At 12/2/07 10:53 PM, McJesus wrote: I'm continuously confused about this, someone explain.

Life experiences

The society that surrounds you

Personal mentality

These are the key things that define morality regardless of religious belief.

But even the word "Moral" isn't an absolute, regardless of belief.

For atheist the true values are making their morality
By that I mean that you have to be really generous in your heart and really be a nice person, for reasons like having a good society life and to make a better world for all.

The problem with religions is that people aren't always doing nice things cause they are generous, they just do it cause they are told to by a god, so they do it just cause they believe that they won't go to hell after their death, and that is just selfish.

At 12/2/07 10:57 PM, TheBlackDahliaMurder wrote: Because being moral and being ethical are 2 completely different things.

Uh. No. Don't go separating the two just because you don't want anything to do with religion.

Ethics is the philosphical consideration (broad term for study) of morality.

People that get their sense of right and wrong from religion are considered moral. Those, some being atheists, that get their sense of right and wrong from society's judgment is considered ethical.

Everybody gets their sense of right and wrong from their social environment.

Don't confuse the 2

Don't needlessly separate them, spreading misconceptions, to justify your life choice.

At 12/2/07 10:57 PM, TheBlackDahliaMurder wrote: People that get their sense of right and wrong from religion are considered moral. Those, some being atheists, that get their sense of right and wrong from society's judgment is considered ethical.

That's not really true. I mean, those aren't really the definitions of moral and ethical.

At 12/2/07 11:09 PM, ReciprocalAnalogy wrote:

Everybody gets their sense of right and wrong from their social environment.

Yes, but after that, you need to think about it, and make yourself your own idea and find the true values of life through your own person. Being just a sheep that thinks and act like everybody won't make the society progress.

And that can also be the source of morality for atheists. Since they don't rely on answers given by a religion, they have to find their own values and own motivations to lead their life.

Just because you don't believe you go anywhere when you die, that there is no higher power, doesnt mean you have no morals. You can still have respect for certain boundries and laws - and personal goals and limits. There are other reasons why people don't comit crimes other than having 'spiritual morals' - maybe you do not want to face concequences?

I may be an athiest, but im also a pacifist. When you are an athiest you almost value life more than spiritual people. This is because we believe death is the end.

Religion isn't the only reason you shouldn't be a cunt.

Rule of thumb: If you treat other people like shit, they'll hate you for it whether or not there's a Hell. So if you don't mind being despised by everyone around you, then by all means, abandon your morals and do whatever the fuck you want.

Of course, this rule doesn't apply if you're using a bullshit definition of morality. Some people think masturbation is immoral, but to a nonreligious person it has no "real" consequences. When I think of morality, I think of treating others the way you would like to be treated, which is really the only rule we should need to live by.

At 12/2/07 10:53 PM, McJesus wrote:

If you start a religion war.. well I'll start crying. Yeah.

For people who believe there is no higher power, no great authority, no God, etc, etc, why do you have morals? In fact, how did morality come about?

If you believe you just 'happened', then why the hell can't you do what you want, instead of following 'morals' set out by man?

I'm continuously confused about this, someone explain.

So in that case, did "God" come up with these morals? If you look in the bible, it's mostly just common sense things that even you could have figured out. (Given plenty of time and Ritalin)

Well, you see, I may not believe in any higher power, but that doesn't mean that I can't understand human suffering. I remember myself getting hurt in the past by various things, and I have associated those thoughts with realizing that other people feel quite like myself. Thus, I understand that what hurts me also quite possibly hurts other people. So, since they are negative to myself, they must be negative towards others, and I shouldn't do them to others.

In essence, all you need to do is not be entirely self-centered and morality is quite obvious. I don't need some blip in the sky to write some code of ethics on a tablet of limestone.

You ask how it came about? That probably depends on the culture.

At 12/2/07 10:53 PM, McJesus wrote:
For people who believe there is no higher power, no great authority, no God, etc, etc, why do you have morals?

Because it makes the world we live in a better, more hospitable place.

In fact, how did morality come about?
If you believe you just 'happened', then why the hell can't you do what you want, instead of following 'morals' set out by man?

I do agree religion did create what we view as modern morals, to a certain degree, but we are at a stage in civilization that we are intelligent enough to distinguish right from wrong.

If someone is a bad person without religion, then having faith is more likely to add passion to their flaws and make them even worse people.

At 12/2/07 11:33 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote:

At 12/2/07 10:53 PM, McJesus wrote:
For people who believe there is no higher power, no great authority, no God, etc, etc, why do you have morals?

If someone is a bad person without religion, then having faith is more likely to add passion to their flaws and make them even worse people.

I'll go with his answer becasue it seems so much smarter than mine....

heres why athist should not be mean
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madalyn_Mur ray_O%27Hair
and yes she is dead they found her chopped up body in the desert

God, I hate these threads.

At 12/2/07 11:35 PM, LordJaric wrote: God, I hate these threads.

And yet you still post in them.

At 12/2/07 11:17 PM, HeavenDuff wrote: Yes, but after that, you need to think about it,

Why do you need to think about it? Oh... so that society can progress. However...

and make yourself your own idea and find the true values of life through your own person.

Is it still your own idea if it is the amalgom of others' ideas? What is "your own person"? Is it what you make it, or what everything has made of you? Maybe it's both. And maybe the relationship is reciprocal, rather than unidirectional.

Being just a sheep that thinks and act like everybody won't make the society progress.

... why should society progress? Is progress 'good'? Why?

And that can also be the source of morality for atheists. Since they don't rely on answers given by a religion, they have to find their own values and own motivations to lead their life.

In either case you have what is given to you.

At 12/2/07 11:38 PM, reality-check7 wrote:

At 12/2/07 11:35 PM, LordJaric wrote: God, I hate these threads.

And yet you still post in them.

To show how stupid I think they are.

At 12/2/07 11:38 PM, ReciprocalAnalogy wrote:

At 12/2/07 11:17 PM, HeavenDuff wrote:

and make yourself your own idea and find the true values of life through your own person.

Is it still your own idea if it is the amalgom of others' ideas? What is "your own person"? Is it what you make it, or what everything has made of you? Maybe it's both. And maybe the relationship is reciprocal, rather than unidirectional.

The fact that you have thought about it prooves that you have the intelligence to make yourself an opinion with the education you have received... your not just a random moron that acts like a robot, doing what he got told to do, cause " it"s the right thing to do. "
Yes it's reciprocal. You learn, you think, you get ideas, you learn more, you make yourself an opinion.

Being just a sheep that thinks and act like everybody won't make the society progress.

... why should society progress? Is progress 'good'? Why?

by that I mean intellectualy, you know... to help stop random wars, stop all the shit going on in the world. You need to have some bright guys to have good ideas to help the world grow better.

And that can also be the source of morality for atheists. Since they don't rely on answers given by a religion, they have to find their own values and own motivations to lead their life.

In either case you have what is given to you.

And also what you have got by yourself :)

You're right, it doesn't make sense. As atheism is defined as the lack of belief in a higher power, it is implicit that all things in existence are under the physical laws of universal dimensions. This means whatever occurs, is a logical outcome of empirical data.

From that you can infer that the actions of anything, including humans, is a predefined notion, no choice is made, it is only an illusion that choice is power

An atheist in ideology believes that morality is unnecessary, because there is no free will to discriminate what is moral or amoral, solely the context in which something happens is the impartial determinant of all things

In order for moral, you must be conscious of some power that you posses or is bestowed upon you that illuminates choice, which requires belief in a higher power.

"Being an atheist makes someone a clearer-thinking, fairer person... They [atheists] are not doing things to be rewarded in heaven; they're doing things because they're right, because they live by a moral code" - Ricky Gervais

At 12/2/07 11:49 PM, pt9-9 wrote: You're right, it doesn't make sense. As atheism is defined as the lack of belief in a higher power, it is implicit that all things in existence are under the physical laws of universal dimensions. This means whatever occurs, is a logical outcome of empirical data.

From that you can infer that the actions of anything, including humans, is a predefined notion, no choice is made, it is only an illusion that choice is power

Not entirely. That is a theory into the nature of time and the universe, and is taking great liberties with logic.

An atheist in ideology believes that morality is unnecessary, because there is no free will to discriminate what is moral or amoral, solely the context in which something happens is the impartial determinant of all things

Not necessarily; atheism is not limited to one specific ideology. You severely underestimate the variety atheism takes upon itself. All that is required to be an atheist is to be a of theism. You can still have philosophical codes of ethics with which to govern yourself.

In order for moral, you must be conscious of some power that you posses or is bestowed upon you that illuminates choice, which requires belief in a higher power.

That is entirely incorrect. One hundred percent incorrect. Read my above post and you will see an example of how it is so.

I don't wanna explain my "religion", per se; read this.

At 12/2/07 10:53 PM, McJesus wrote:

If you believe you just 'happened', then why the hell can't you do what you want, instead of following 'morals' set out by man?

I'm continuously confused about this, someone explain.

Divine command theory doesn't work at all and has been rejected by every philosopher since the middle ages. Read up on Deontology, Utilitarianism and Virtue Ethics if you want to know some plausible theories for the origin of morality.

At 12/2/07 11:49 PM, pt9-9 wrote: You're right, it doesn't make sense. As atheism is defined as the lack of belief in a higher power, it is implicit that all things in existence are under the physical laws of universal dimensions. This means whatever occurs, is a logical outcome of empirical data.

No, it's just lack of belief in a god(s).
That's all.
None of this empirical data is universal among atheists.

At 12/2/07 11:47 PM, HeavenDuff wrote: your not just a random moron that acts like a robot, doing what he got told to do, cause " it"s the right thing to do. "

Name calling? It's almost as if you feel like you're better than these mindless robots.

Yes it's reciprocal. You learn, you think, you get ideas, you learn more, you make yourself an opinion.

It ends at your opinion? That doesn't seem reciprocal to me.

by that I mean intellectualy, you know... to help stop random wars, stop all the shit going on in the world. You need to have some bright guys to have good ideas to help the world grow better.

"Grow Better"? Define this. Maybe random wars are good for the world. Maybe bright guys have bad ideas.

And also what you have got by yourself :)

What is there to consider if you haven't been given anything to consider?

At 12/3/07 12:06 AM, MadMax wrote: Common sense and law.

Nihilists do ignore those though.

Agreed. But not all atheists are nihilists.

Not that I'm saying this for your benefit, but a lot of people assume so.

At 12/3/07 12:05 AM, ReciprocalAnalogy wrote:

At 12/2/07 11:47 PM, HeavenDuff wrote: your not just a random moron that acts like a robot, doing what he got told to do, cause " it"s the right thing to do. "

Name calling? It's almost as if you feel like you're better than these mindless robots.

Well, I feel that I have thought about something, and if you don't think than just be a vegetable.

Yes it's reciprocal. You learn, you think, you get ideas, you learn more, you make yourself an opinion.

It ends at your opinion? That doesn't seem reciprocal to me.

No it doesn't end there... I didn't say that... there is lot more but I won't write a philisophical book now. I think you did get my point, didn't you?

by that I mean intellectualy, you know... to help stop random wars, stop all the shit going on in the world. You need to have some bright guys to have good ideas to help the world grow better.

"Grow Better"? Define this. Maybe random wars are good for the world. Maybe bright guys have bad ideas.

Well, Martin Luther King fought for equality... I don't see whats bad in that idea. Also lots of philosophes have helped the human grow in is mind. Maybe you know Descartes? He had some good points in his philosophy about how to make yourself a good opinion, without being affected by all the bad things that makes someone who lives in a society unable to have his own opinions and ideas.

And also what you have got by yourself :)

What is there to consider if you haven't been given anything to consider?

I didn't quite get that last sentence, sorry I have to speak my mind all in english and thats not my first language.