I've heard SFM is being banned from uploading to newgrounds,is this true? i'd appreciate fulps input on this.
SFM?
9,138 Views | 52 Replies
At 12/26/18 03:15 PM, JosephStarr wrote: I thought it already was in the art section:
"Do not submit images made from public files (such as scene creators). Content created using 'scene creator' programs does not count as your creation. The artist who created the game also created the pieces, so the art is considered to be their work.
This includes art made with Source Filmmaker; if you did not create the character models, please do not share your piece in the Art Portal."
^ From the Art portal Guidelines.Which is odd since I see it everywhere now. I even have a few in my favorites I think.
Yeah this seems odd to single out,is this a mistake? or something that'll be enforced from now on
At 12/26/18 03:15 PM, JosephStarr wrote: Which is odd since I see it everywhere now.
By all means, report it.
Teacher, goth, communist, cynic, alcoholic, master swordsman, king of shitpoasts.
It's better to die together than to live alone.
Sig by Decky
At 12/27/18 06:38 AM, DamnedByFate wrote:At 12/26/18 03:15 PM, JosephStarr wrote: Which is odd since I see it everywhere now.By all means, report it.
I'm gonna say no until i get toms opinion on the matter,if he officially says no to SFM that's gonna kill a lot of content creators
At 12/27/18 09:11 PM, godzillabeasty wrote:At 12/27/18 06:38 AM, DamnedByFate wrote:I'm gonna say no until i get toms opinion on the matter,if he officially says no to SFM that's gonna kill a lot of content creatorsAt 12/26/18 03:15 PM, JosephStarr wrote: Which is odd since I see it everywhere now.By all means, report it.
You know you can summon Tom to get his opinion, right?
Teacher, goth, communist, cynic, alcoholic, master swordsman, king of shitpoasts.
It's better to die together than to live alone.
Sig by Decky
At 12/28/18 06:06 AM, DamnedByFate wrote: You know you can summon Tom to get his opinion, right?
@TomFulp
We don't allow SFM in the Art Portal due to people generally using third party models and generating large amounts of art that competes for space in the listings.
It's ok in the movies portal, where we're more lenient with animations. Uploading too much low-effort work in the movies portal could be considered shovelware though.
At 12/28/18 06:22 AM, TomFulp wrote:At 12/28/18 06:06 AM, DamnedByFate wrote: You know you can summon Tom to get his opinion, right?We don't allow SFM in the Art Portal due to people generally using third party models and generating large amounts of art that competes for space in the listings.
@TomFulp
It's ok in the movies portal, where we're more lenient with animations. Uploading too much low-effort work in the movies portal could be considered shovelware though.
Then how come so much of it exists in the art portal already?
Again some people do put nuts amount of energy into their renders so i think it's a bit unfair.
At 12/28/18 09:34 PM, godzillabeasty wrote:At 12/28/18 06:22 AM, TomFulp wrote:Then how come so much of it exists in the art portal already?At 12/28/18 06:06 AM, DamnedByFate wrote: You know you can summon Tom to get his opinion, right?We don't allow SFM in the Art Portal due to people generally using third party models and generating large amounts of art that competes for space in the listings.
@TomFulp
It's ok in the movies portal, where we're more lenient with animations. Uploading too much low-effort work in the movies portal could be considered shovelware though.
Again some people do put nuts amount of energy into their renders so i think it's a bit unfair.
If you come across such stuff, you can always flag it.
It goes against the Art Portal's ToS, since it does not belong there.
I'm curious what are we supposed to do when it comes to shovelware though.
The Newgrounds Revolution isn't a thing, quit being a pussy.
At 12/28/18 01:08 PM, JosephStarr wrote: We have a clean-up crew? Or anybody that can tell if the models in these submissions are taken from a copyrighted game?
If there isn't already, I'd love to start one up. The thing is if something like that is allowed within the mod's eyes or not.
At 12/28/18 10:35 PM, WahyaRanger2 wrote: https://youtu.be/juQWweNCTZs
This contributes to the conversation because...?
At 12/28/18 11:07 PM, WahyaRanger2 wrote:At 12/28/18 10:39 PM, solitonmedic wrote: This contributes to the conversation because...?It doesn't just my favorite SFM bit.
...
At 12/28/18 06:22 AM, TomFulp wrote:At 12/28/18 06:06 AM, DamnedByFate wrote: You know you can summon Tom to get his opinion, right?We don't allow SFM in the Art Portal due to people generally using third party models and generating large amounts of art that competes for space in the listings.
@TomFulp
It's ok in the movies portal, where we're more lenient with animations. Uploading too much low-effort work in the movies portal could be considered shovelware though.
The problem is that the models are free source and modelers that release their models as free source are actually hoping that animators will do animations with them. You are basically agitating against the use of transformative content which is a form of creating content. SFM animators NEVER claimed that the models they use are THEIRS, and often times they even leave a link to the original artist who created this model. But the animation or image that they did- does belong to them, since they spent time and effort creating it. And a lot of times animators do PAY for their MODELS.
A lot of my favorite artists on the platform are SFM artists. And I enjoy their animations and images (transformative content) as much as I enjoy regular artworks (original content).
LET PEOPLE DO WHAT THEY WANT, DON'T BE LIKE TUMBLR. Stop targeting independent artists. They are not doing anything that is against the terms of free use and some of the content they create can be truly amazing.
Ps. And also, you are not the one to decide what content is good enough for you portal. Everyone is learning and maybe eventually artist will learn how to do stuff properly.
If someone is uploading too much of their artworks, generating a large amounts of art that competes for space in the listings. Well, ban this person for SPAMMING, not because he is using SFM. I know a couple of artist that spam their shitty artworks and they do them in Paint, lol. So by your logic, they will not be prosecuted, but the SFM artist that actually did put effort into his art-will be. This is a bad logic.
At 12/28/18 11:57 PM, Arwokom wrote:At 12/28/18 06:22 AM, TomFulp wrote:The problem is that the models are free source and modelers that release their models as free source are actually hoping that animators will do animations with them. You are basically agitating against the use of transformative content which is a form of creating content. SFM animators NEVER claimed that the models they use are THEIRS, and often times they even leave a link to the original artist who created this model. But the animation or image that they did- does belong to them, since they spent time and effort creating it. And a lot of times animators do PAY for their MODELS.
We don't allow SFM in the Art Portal due to people generally using third party models and generating large amounts of art that competes for space in the listings.
It's ok in the movies portal, where we're more lenient with animations. Uploading too much low-effort work in the movies portal could be considered shovelware though.
A lot of my favorite artists on the platform are SFM artists. And I enjoy their animations and images (transformative content) as much as I enjoy regular artworks (original content).
LET PEOPLE DO WHAT THEY WANT, DON'T BE LIKE TUMBLR. Stop targeting independent artists. They are not doing anything that is against the terms of free use and some of the content they create can be truly amazing.
Ps. And also, you are not the one to decide what content is good enough for you portal. Everyone is learning and maybe eventually artist will learn how to do stuff properly.
If someone is uploading too much of their artworks, generating a large amounts of art that competes for space in the listings. Well, ban this person for SPAMMING, not because he is using SFM. I know a couple of artist that spam their shitty artworks and they do them in Paint, lol. So by your logic, they will not be prosecuted, but the SFM artist that actually did put effort into his art-will be. This is a bad logic.
First off, yes, Tom does get to decide what is allowed, he literally decides that for all the portals, he is the creator and has unlimited power. He doesn't abuse it though. There are rules and they are enforced. We are not being like Tumblr, rules are necessary and you don't get to decide them either. If we left everything as it was, with stolen shit and copyright strikes waiting to happen, the site would fall. Do you seriously think the rules weren't gradually figured out over the course of almost 20 years since the automated portal was introduced?
Next, about competing for space. What Tom meant was that SFM using someone else's models in the art portal is quick and easy to make. Because if you take someone else's statue or figurine or something and you pose it in an original way, does that count as your own original art? No. It doesn't matter if you have permission, everything you upload to NG has to be your work. The pieces are there, you don't even make them do something new really, you just move them around a bit. That's why it's not allowed I art, because it's just too similar to the original. A static image is just placing the models in space. Do you get that?
Also, you seemed to willfully ignore what Tom said so you could start a fight and act like a freedom fighter. First off, you need to understand that Fair Use does not exist on Newgrounds. The website doesn't have the funds to afford Fair Use. It's easy to say that everything transformative should be allowed, and we try our hardest to do that as much as possible. We don't remove things with copyrighted music if they're really good or had effort put in, even though, according to the rules, we should. And Tom didn't say animations are discouraged. Check out the movie portal, you'll see some SFM stuff in tehre, because animation is transformative enough to qualify. Because it's motion, with sounds andayeb action. Like I said, static images are limited and animation is far more transformative. That's why Tom said he allowed it. Read what you replied to and think about what you're saying, don't attempt to be badass and commanding without understanding where you are and the weight of what you're saying.
At 12/28/18 11:57 PM, Arwokom wrote: If someone is uploading too much of their artworks, generating a large amounts of art that competes for space in the listings. Well, ban this person for SPAMMING, not because he is using SFM. I know a couple of artist that spam their shitty artworks and they do them in Paint, lol. So by your logic, they will not be prosecuted, but the SFM artist that actually did put effort into his art-will be. This is a bad logic.
what kind of backward logic is this
thanks for clearing this mess up, i appreciate it
At 12/29/18 04:34 AM, TheReviewTrickster wrote:
Read what you replied to and think about what you're saying, don't attempt to be badass and commanding without understanding where you are and the weight of what you're saying.
I'm not trying to be a badass, I am just concerned about SFM artist and I believe that the rules that are enforced against them are unfair. That's all.
At 12/29/18 11:45 AM, Arwokom wrote:At 12/29/18 04:34 AM, TheReviewTrickster wrote:Read what you replied to and think about what you're saying, don't attempt to be badass and commanding without understanding where you are and the weight of what you're saying.I'm not trying to be a badass, I am just concerned about SFM artist and I believe that the rules that are enforced against them are unfair. That's all.
Yeah, I'm kinda feeling that too. I can understand the thought process of people thinking all SFM Render Art is low quality, but the people who say that are also the people who most likely have not even touched SFM. I can pull up tons of examples of High Quality SFM Art, But I have the feeling that they won't care and just say the examples are Exceptions.
We SFM Artist had to fight to be recognized everywhere else. We're willing to fight for it here too.
At 12/30/18 12:13 AM, ManualControl wrote:At 12/29/18 11:45 AM, Arwokom wrote:Yeah, I'm kinda feeling that too. I can understand the thought process of people thinking all SFM Render Art is low quality, but the people who say that are also the people who most likely have not even touched SFM. I can pull up tons of examples of High Quality SFM Art, But I have the feeling that they won't care and just say the examples are Exceptions.At 12/29/18 04:34 AM, TheReviewTrickster wrote:Read what you replied to and think about what you're saying, don't attempt to be badass and commanding without understanding where you are and the weight of what you're saying.I'm not trying to be a badass, I am just concerned about SFM artist and I believe that the rules that are enforced against them are unfair. That's all.
We SFM Artist had to fight to be recognized everywhere else. We're willing to fight for it here too.
Oh, Also, Since Tumblr banned NSFW Blogs, All those SFM artist needed a new place to put all their stuff. Since some of them chose Newgrounds, It's bound to flood the place for a little while due to posting their galleries in the span of days. Once it all calms down, the flood will stop.
And what about the Artist who's models were made by them? Do they get the shaft because of rules like this even if there is no copyright problems?
At 12/30/18 01:04 AM, ManualControl wrote:
And what about the Artist who's models were made by them? Do they get the shaft because of rules like this even if there is no copyright problems?
I think that should be fine. @Tom, what do you think?
Anyways, about the other stuff, like I said, it's fine in an animation because animations have a lot more potential to add to the value of the models. They have sound and everything. With a static image, it's a lot less transformative, because, again, you just move around models someone else made. Like making a photo-collage or arranging action figures. Not sure how you feel about gifs tho Tom.
At 12/30/18 03:45 AM, TheBoogyFlicker wrote:At 12/30/18 01:04 AM, ManualControl wrote:I think that should be fine. @Tom, what do you think?
And what about the Artist who's models were made by them? Do they get the shaft because of rules like this even if there is no copyright problems?
Anyways, about the other stuff, like I said, it's fine in an animation because animations have a lot more potential to add to the value of the models. They have sound and everything. With a static image, it's a lot less transformative, because, again, you just move around models someone else made. Like making a photo-collage or arranging action figures. Not sure how you feel about gifs tho Tom.
Well there is also another point about the "Copyright" Argument. If it's so risky for Newgrounds to show stuff that is copyrighted that's made in SFM, Why isn't the same logic applied to all the other things on the site? The pictures, Movies, and games (Hell even the Site Background right now!) that feature copyrighted characters? Is it because it's considered "Fan Works"? Because if that's the case, The same can be said for anything SFM related as well.
Or is this rule only there because of the program SFM is? Blender is also a Scene Creator, and people ALSO use third party models to make animations in Blender. Is that banned too? My guess is "No, Because it's also able to model" and that's a poor argument. Just because it's able to model doesn't mean the person using it modeled what they are using in it. At that point, It turns into "Posing Action Figures" as well.
Let's also not ignore the fact that this restriction alienates a large portion of users that moved here from Tumblr. Not the majority, obviously, but a large number none the less.
At 12/31/18 07:10 PM, ManualControl wrote:At 12/30/18 03:45 AM, TheBoogyFlicker wrote:Well there is also another point about the "Copyright" Argument. If it's so risky for Newgrounds to show stuff that is copyrighted that's made in SFM, Why isn't the same logic applied to all the other things on the site? The pictures, Movies, and games (Hell even the Site Background right now!) that feature copyrighted characters? Is it because it's considered "Fan Works"? Because if that's the case, The same can be said for anything SFM related as well.At 12/30/18 01:04 AM, ManualControl wrote:I think that should be fine. @Tom, what do you think?
And what about the Artist who's models were made by them? Do they get the shaft because of rules like this even if there is no copyright problems?
Anyways, about the other stuff, like I said, it's fine in an animation because animations have a lot more potential to add to the value of the models. They have sound and everything. With a static image, it's a lot less transformative, because, again, you just move around models someone else made. Like making a photo-collage or arranging action figures. Not sure how you feel about gifs tho Tom.
Precisely. It's not about whether the characters are copyrighted. It's about whether you made the work you're using. You can't consider something made with someone else's work your own unless you add something substantial and significant to it. That's what I've been saying this entire time. Static images with that stuff is just you posing someone else's work, animation is moving it, adding much more value to it.
Or is this rule only there because of the program SFM is? Blender is also a Scene Creator, and people ALSO use third party models to make animations in Blender. Is that banned too? My guess is "No, Because it's also able to model" and that's a poor argument. Just because it's able to model doesn't mean the person using it modeled what they are using in it. At that point, It turns into "Posing Action Figures" as well.
Again, I'm arguing against static images here. That's what Tom said, you're not listening.
Let's also not ignore the fact that this restriction alienates a large portion of users that moved here from Tumblr. Not the majority, obviously, but a large number none the less.
Well, but we won't change our fundamental rules for the sake of new people. We want to make them feel comfortable, but not by compromising our integrity. This is a lousy argument, since it's one based in content we allow and not general conveniences which can be better for everyone.
At 12/31/18 07:10 PM, ManualControl wrote: Or is this rule only there because of the program SFM is? Blender is also a Scene Creator, and people ALSO use third party models to make animations in Blender. Is that banned too? My guess is "No, Because it's also able to model" and that's a poor argument. Just because it's able to model doesn't mean the person using it modeled what they are using in it. At that point, It turns into "Posing Action Figures" as well.
Glad you agree. If you see submissions where people have used stock models in Blender, please report them as well.
Let's also not ignore the fact that this restriction alienates a large portion of users that moved here from Tumblr. Not the majority, obviously, but a large number none the less.
Allowing SFM works will alienate the existing user base, which is larger.
You can argue until the cows come home, but I am not interested in seeing people taking someone else’s 3D model and repose it.
At 12/31/18 07:19 PM, TheBoogyFlicker wrote: That's what I've been saying this entire time. Static images with that stuff is just you posing someone else's work, animation is moving it, adding much more value to it.
Again, I'm arguing against static images here. That's what Tom said, you're not listening.
This implies that the people put no work into making the scene or the pose, which in most cases is not true. If you have used SFM, You would know it's not as easy as just putting a model in and instantly getting a good picture. First, You must actually make the scene, which is much harder then you would think because you have to place everything, find what you need, figure out what you want it to look like. Sure, Corners could be cut by just loading up a map, but there is still the fact of posing what you want, lighting it correctly, making it actually look GOOD and then tons of other things you would know if you were an SFM Artist.
And the way you talk about it proves that you most likely have never even touched the program.
At 12/31/18 07:38 PM, ManualControl wrote: This implies that the people put no work into making the scene or the pose, which in most cases is not true. If you have used SFM, You would know it's not as easy as just putting a model in and instantly getting a good picture. First, You must actually make the scene, which is much harder then you would think because you have to place everything, find what you need, figure out what you want it to look like. Sure, Corners could be cut by just loading up a map, but there is still the fact of posing what you want, lighting it correctly, making it actually look GOOD and then tons of other things you would know if you were an SFM Artist.
And the way you talk about it proves that you most likely have never even touched the program.
You're still using someone else's assets that you did not made your own.
The bottom line is you need to have made the map, the models, the effects, practically everything that's going on in that scene. That sort of content may fly in places like DeviantArt or Tumblr, but fair use is nonexistent here in NG. You need to have made the content/assets by your own hands. It's unfair, but it is how it is.
If it's any consolation, you can always post your SFM artwork within the Art forums. I don't see any rules forbidding that.
This includes art made with Source Filmmaker; if you did not create the character models, please do not share your piece in the Art Portal.
I can tell you that at the time when the first wave of Tumblr artists moved in, this rule didn't exist. I double checked it to make sure that SFM art was allowed. A bit silly, but I can see the reason behind this rule.
I'm just sort of annoyed that my whole gallery got purged and with the bold part of the rule. Some of the uploads only had models I did create myself (Felicia and Ankha) and nobody else has these.
At 1/1/19 01:57 AM, solitonmedic wrote: The bottom line is you need to have made the map, the models, the effects, practically everything that's going on in that scene. That sort of content may fly in places like DeviantArt or Tumblr, but fair use is nonexistent here in NG. You need to have made the content/assets by your own hands. It's unfair, but it is how it is.
So far the rule seems to state "characters", so furniture and backgrounds should be fine? I mean, how are you going to be able to say that you created that table or chair in the scene? Those objects are universal and come in several shapes and forms.
At 1/1/19 02:54 AM, Tahlian wrote: I can tell you that at the time when the first wave of Tumblr artists moved in, this rule didn't exist. I double checked it to make sure that SFM art was allowed. A bit silly, but I can see the reason behind this rule.
I'm just sort of annoyed that my whole gallery got purged and with the bold part of the rule. Some of the uploads only had models I did create myself (Felicia and Ankha) and nobody else has these.
If this is the case, you should let a mod know that it's misunderstanding. If you can prove it's your original asset, there shouldn't be any reason why would your SFM submissions should be taken down.
So far the rule seems to state "characters", so furniture and backgrounds should be fine? I mean, how are you going to be able to say that you created that table or chair in the scene? Those objects are universal and come in several shapes and forms.
Not necessarily. You cannot use assets that came from games or assets created by others, even WITH their permission..
You'll be surprised how relentless how people are with copyright. This wasn't usually a problem in NG's earlier years. Some of NG's older submissions were taken down just because it lacked the music license needed to be played and redistributed here.
That same thing applies to 3D assets, ranging from characters to props. You can get sued for even having something little as a 3D chair in your artwork. That's why NG wants everyone make their own stuff rather then having to borrow your assets.
In short, EVERYTHING needs to have been made by yourself.
At 1/1/19 02:54 AM, Tahlian wrote: I can tell you that at the time when the first wave of Tumblr artists moved in, this rule didn't exist. I double checked it to make sure that SFM art was allowed. A bit silly, but I can see the reason behind this rule.
I'm just sort of annoyed that my whole gallery got purged and with the bold part of the rule. Some of the uploads only had models I did create myself (Felicia and Ankha) and nobody else has these.
So you're telling us that this is a reactionary rule only implemented incredibly recently. Yeah. Cause that's fair. They could have at least asked their community if the rule should be implemented or not.
