Is karma real?

[Wegra]

I mean I think it does in some way but it doesn't happen often enough if you ask me .

[Klaudesin]

At 10/4/17 08:46 PM, MPPlantOfficial wrote: Newton's 3rd Law basically. Everything you do will have an opposite and equal reaction.
Dynastywarriors5 here would know since "Science is his Religion" and the man has completed over a thousand papers by now.

To demonstrate this 3rd Law we have this example:

why even what...?

[Klaudesin]

At 10/4/17 09:03 PM, MPPlantOfficial wrote:

At 10/4/17 08:50 PM, Klaudesin wrote:
why even what...?

See for every ass there will always be an opposite and equal.....ehhh not really.

Just really wanted an excuse to post that. Was hoping Ever-After would make another one of those emo threads but fk it...

Well if your gonna post that then I might as well just post this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfCYZ3pks48

[SatanBrain]

Is lex talionis real? This is the only 'karmic reality' I know of.

[Big-Boss]

At 10/4/17 08:13 PM, Wegra wrote: I mean I think it does in some way but it doesn't happen often enough if you ask me .

I honestly believe so.

[Eude-Confessionary]

I would like to think karma is real, but I'm also a realistic man.

[ADR3-N]

At 10/5/17 02:50 AM, Dynastywarriors5 wrote: True all true. I pray to Saint Newton every day.

So, you pray to the dead? Interesting... Heretic! Praying to the dead is for Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses, and ... pretty much every religion except Christianity.

[DanielTheManiel]

Doubt it, the world is so fucked up and unbalanced when it to "Right and wrong" that there really can't really be karma.

[byteslinger]

If one believes in Karma, then one must accept all that goes with it.

On the path of spiritual enlightenment, one principle holds firm: balance. There must be balance in everything. In a simple physical world, every action has a reaction; in a spiritual world, every action that upsets the balance is met eventually with an opposing action. Karma is the balancing mechanism, and understanding that good and evil, light and dark, happiness and sadness are all part of the wheel of life is where enlightenment begins.

We think of Karma as a force of vengeance: someone does something wrong, and eventually the "universe" gets back at them for it. While it's satisfying to see someone get swift justice, it's not always the case. Karma can span multiple lifetimes, which means that it's fully possible for someone to be horrible for all their life and get away with it, or someone to be pure and good but be punished for it. When they die, we all think how unfair things were - why did the bad guy win? Why didn't the good person get a break?

But you don't know what their next life will bring them. Did they need to learn evil to find balance and understanding, and thus step closer to Nirvana? Or did they act selfishly and fall off the path, so that in the next life, they feel the pain that they caused?

If you don't believe in the Hindi ways, nor of Enlightenment or reincarnation, then Karma is meaningless to you, and what you are experiencing isn't Karma, but just some random events that make you feel that justice was served.

[Dre]

Yes

[ADR3-N]

At 10/8/17 08:48 PM, Dynastywarriors5 wrote: Catholics are Christian, and Lutherans also worship saints.

So I missed one denomination out of 10,000. Shrug. Catholicism isn't scriptural. It's Churchianity. Martin Luther demonstrated that pretty well about 500 years ago, before he went off his rocker full speed into anti-semitism, of course.

In general Christianity was supposed to be: following Christ, rejecting worldly gain, being saved by faith instead of works, rejecting syncretism and paganism, and treating everyone fairly and equitably. Everything was great until Constantine came along in the 300's AD, declared himself Pontifex Maximus (pope), and merged paganism into the church, under penalty of death for those that didn't comply to the continuous 8 day week cycle and reject the luni-solar calendar. The trend continued for over 1,000 years, spawning lots of Luciferian offshoots like the Templars, the Illuminati, etc., while also giving us such tragedies as the Gregorian calendar in the process, at the cost of countless Jewish and Christian "heretic" lives. So, now everyone in the world just about celebrates Saturnalia--I mean Christmas--instead of Hannukkah, and the Vatican is ridiculously rich.

But that's neither here nor there. This is about karma.

Divine judgment or karma would be when Jesus said, "An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas" in Matt 12:39.

Jesus prophesied, "I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands." Now, no one would get the reference until both A, Jesus was resurrected, and B, 40 years later on the 9th of Av, the 2nd temple was destroyed (weirdly enough on the same day as the 1st temple), and not one stone was left upon another, just like he said in Luke 21:6.

Messianic Jews get the connection: a resurrection on the third day, preaching and prophesying, warning of coming judgement in 40 days if people don't stop with the corruption, killing, hedonism, devil worship, politics. That sort of thing.

Prophetic days are reckoned as years. The difference between Jonah's ministry in Nineveh and Jesus' ministry in Judea, Samaria, etc., is that the religious hypocrites in Jesus' day held onto their theocratic power rather than repent, and Nineveh in Jonah's day stopped all that human sacrifice and wild sex ritual crap and embraced Judaism, incidentally after some civil wars, quakes, the Bur Sagale eclipse, plagues... I could go on.

Seeing as people taunted Jesus at his crucifixion with this prophecy, it had to have been common knowledge -- and we know Jesus was pretty famous. If the claim were not true, plenty of contemporaries could have shut claims to the contrary down. Extra-biblical sources report miracles at the temple stopping after Jesus' death, the gigantic gates opening of their own accord, massive veil being torn, seemingly inexplicable supernatural darkness, and a quake.

Those that listened to Jesus' ministry knew to get out of town and never return before the Roman forces came and destroyed the city 40 years later, plowing the ground with salt exactly one year after the temple destruction, again on the 9th of Av. You miss this stuff when you're going purely off the Gregorian calendar.

For all the killing the Pharisees did, I'd say they got what was coming to them. These days, such examples are few and far between. A few people have gone as far as to say that the recent hurricane that slammed Houston, TX is just desserts for having such a big abortion facility nearby. If nobody knew already, fetuses do try to resist abortion. Found that out not long ago, and it still unnerves me. I've got the link written down somewhere.

[Dre]

At 10/8/17 09:55 PM, ADR3-N wrote: In general Christianity was supposed to be: following Christ, rejecting worldly gain, being saved by faith instead of works, rejecting syncretism and paganism, and treating everyone fairly and equitably.

I always find it very incredible how wholly un-Christian so many people who apply that label to themselves in our society are. It seems that with every passing generation, words seem to lose their meaning and people just throw them around blindly without even understanding what they truly are.

So, now everyone in the world just about celebrates Saturnalia--I mean Christmas--instead of Hannukkah, and the Vatican is ridiculously rich.

Heresy conveniently disguised as faith. It's quite clever, really. Today, the majority worship man-made idols and commercialism rather than our creator.

For all the killing the Pharisees did, I'd say they got what was coming to them. These days, such examples are few and far between. A few people have gone as far as to say that the recent hurricane that slammed Houston, TX is just desserts for having such a big abortion facility nearby. If nobody knew already, fetuses do try to resist abortion. Found that out not long ago, and it still unnerves me. I've got the link written down somewhere.

Amen. Preach it, brother! Glad to know I'm not the only one here who is unnerved by the concept of wanton murder of unborn children. I got into a pretty heated debate about abortion on the BBS back in 2015. I think I provided some very solid arguments against it. You can check out the thread here: https://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/1398861/1

[Dre]

At 10/8/17 10:40 PM, Dynastywarriors5 wrote:

At 10/8/17 10:13 PM, Dre wrote: Heresy conveniently disguised as faith. It's quite clever, really. Today, the majority worship man-made idols and commercialism rather than our creator.

Other than in pagan nations, who worships idols? I don't see that is being common.

Idolatry permeates through every facet of our society, and is common among so-called "Christians" in the US and other western countries. The thing about it is that it is often so subtle that these people don't even realize they're engaging in it.

Just as an example, people rush into shopping malls on Black Friday to buy gifts, trampling each other just to get their hands on an item before others do. They are, in essence, worshipping man-made objects and placing more importance on these things than they do on their actual faith.

Another example is how so many people seem to worship the cross when it's nothing more than a man-made object symbolizing the cross on which Jesus died. The cross itself has no connection to God - it is of this world and not his. The people who place so much importance on it are engaging in idolatry without realizing it.

[Dre]

At 10/8/17 10:56 PM, Dynastywarriors5 wrote:

At 10/8/17 10:49 PM, Dre wrote:

I think you're misunderstanding idolatry. An idol is a object made for a foreign god to inhabit, it's more than a man made object.

What God do you think people worship when they're trampling each other to get into the store?

[Dre]

At 10/8/17 11:08 PM, Dynastywarriors5 wrote: None, that's my point.

I think the "foreign god" in this case is the item they're seeking to buy. I don't think they have to kneel down and pray to it for it to be considered idolatry, but that is something open to interpretation.

For instance, Haredi Jews consider Israeli nationalism to be idolatrous. This doesn't necessarily entail worshipping Israel in a religious sense, but in their view (and in mine) it is substituting genuine faith in God with a faith in something of this world, which in my opinion constitutes idolatry.

[Dre]

At 10/8/17 11:23 PM, Dynastywarriors5 wrote: But gods, by definition are not of this world. Only God, the most high, does not need an idol to inhabit. I doubt that anyone from the ancient near east would call something like a basket or a table an idol.

The real God is not of this world. The false gods that people worship in his place are.

An object in and of itself is not an idol unless people place undue importance on it. There's nothing wrong with using a basket or eating off a table. There's nothing wrong with going to the store to buy something you like.

However, when people trample each other to get into a Walmart or Macy's just to buy something for Christmas, they're placing undue importance on a man-made item and breaking their covenant with God in the process. At least that's how I see it.

Christmas is supposed to be this Christian holiday to honor the birth of Christ but when people do those sort of things for the sake of getting Christmas gifts I see it as idolatrous behavior

[Dre]

At 10/8/17 11:43 PM, Dynastywarriors5 wrote: Other gods are not fake, and they are not of this world, read Psalm 82.

I actually read the Psalms every day, although I listen to them in Hebrew while reading them and the translation I read is a bit different from the one in your link. I can't say I really like this translation.

I find this translation to be a bit more accurate.

It is true that it uses the term "elohim" (literally "gods") when referring to the "judges", but in this context I believe they are referring to men who hold high positions of power ("godlike beings") and it alludes to this by also saying "you shall die like men."

The established Jewish belief is that there is only one God and all other "gods" are not real Gods. The complete meaning of this passage is not entirely clear and there is many different interpretations of it, but I subscribe to the traditional Jewish interpretation. I do not believe there can be any other gods besides God, the creator.

Also some related links on this topic:
https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/9590/what-does-psalm-82-mean
http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-category/jewish-texts/the-prophets-and-writings/page/4/?p=1195

[ADR3-N]

@Dynastywarriors5, The meaning of elohim is largely dependent upon context. An elohim could be a judge on earth, or it could be an angel OR demon, or, as in the case of Elohim, it could be God. Paying close attention to the characteristics of the elohim in question and the context is the clue. Hebrew is a high context language.

At 10/8/17 10:38 PM, Dynastywarriors5 wrote: Of all the thousands of protestant denomination, only a handful are significant and the Lutheran church is one of them. I agree that Catholicism isn't scriptual, but they still follow the Son of Man.

Actually, they follow the pope, Mary, and Peter, allegedly based off of one verse in particular, Matt 16:18 -- Now I say to you that you are Peter (which means ‘rock’), and upon this rock I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer it.

Catholics are of the opinion Peter was the cornerstone of the church and the first pope, but in that same passage, when Jesus predicted his own death, you see a double rebuke, back to back. Peter rebuked Jesus for predicting his martyrdom, and Jesus rebuked Peter for rebuking the will of the Father. He actually called him Satan to get his point across.

Protestants, for the most part, believe that Matt 16:18 is one of Jesus' mini-parables, and that Jesus himself was the cornerstone. Scripture holds to this interpretation well. The stone that the builders rejected has now become the cornerstone, Psalm 118:22, is quoted in each gospel, now that I think of it, also related to karma/divine justice.

Matt 21:43 Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. The next few lines of the passage quite literally explain these words are directed at the Pharisees who went around acting self-righteous, getting people killed, and profiting from poor little widows who only had 2 mites to offer at the temple.

And what about the Orthodox church?

I still see a lot of anti-semitism and replacement theology come out of the orthodoxy. The orthodox churches don't recognize the pope. That's just about the only difference I'm aware of. Still a lot of praying to dead, unscriptural masses, and man's tradition.

Is it about rejection of paganism or idolatry? They aren't the same thing. I don't see why it matters if Christian holidays are based off of pagan ones if Christ is still the one glorified.

@Dre covered this in a succinct two sentences, but I'll expound a little for the curious. Most people after all are not aware that prior to Constantine, we Christians did not observe a continuous week cycle.

Both actually. The problem with the pagan holidays is, we were commanded to observe a totally different calendar than the one we run today. Of course, doing that is nearly impossible if you want to have a job or do well in school -- unless you're lucky and they're okay with you scheduling off days on a month by month basis. Because you're not technically a Jew, despite basically becoming a Messianic Jew, you don't qualify for any special treatment and in short are persecuted because most Christians are uninformed and don't even know we're on the wrong calendar.

The luni-solar calendar of YHWH is tied to the moon cycles and is highly accurate. The solar Gregorian calendar has continuous weeks which float through the arbitrary months. Basically, Jews and Christians died because they didn't want to disobey YHWH or facilitate the destruction of their culture. Their days of worship and observances were soon made illegal by Constantine and successors, who mingled paganism with churchianity, syncretism, and anti-semitism. First century Christianity was almost indistinguishable from Judaism with the exception of complete rejection of the Talmud, Pharisaic tradition, salvation by deeds, and self-righteousness.

It's important to note that had Constantine not taken over the "church" as we know it, the writers of the Quran would not ever have been under the assumption the Trinity was the Father, Mother, and Son, rather than Father, Son/Word, and Ruach hakodesh (Holy Spirit).

At 10/8/17 10:13 PM, Dre wrote: I always find it very incredible how wholly un-Christian so many people who apply that label to themselves in our society are. It seems that with every passing generation, words seem to lose their meaning and people just throw them around blindly without even understanding what they truly are.

Well, turn-on-and-tune-out seems to be here to stay, although the 70's have passed. Would you guess the peace sign is actually a baphomet symbol? Same with the so-called love sign. People throw those around too.

Heresy conveniently disguised as faith. It's quite clever, really. Today, the majority worship man-made idols and commercialism rather than our creator.

We worship sex, radio, rock and roll, TV, and movies these days. Life imitates art.

Amen. Preach it, brother! Glad to know I'm not the only one here who is unnerved by the concept of wanton murder of unborn children. I got into a pretty heated debate about abortion on the BBS back in 2015. I think I provided some very solid arguments against it. You can check out the thread here: https://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/1398861/1

*sister -- an art major drew a beard on me with free makeup and we took a picture for my brother. For those who knew me as trans for 2 years, I figured it'd be a nice little in-joke and a good way to say goodbye to the new pronoun for good. I'm actually okay with being female now.

But I'll check out that thread.

Back to topic, I don't know if Harvey was karma for the blood of innocent babies crying out or not, but it sure is suspicious it happened 4 days after an eclipse, and it's been nothing but fire and destruction and unrest ever since all over the US. I wouldn't even say we don't deserve it. America has gone down the corruption crapper, and we've known it for a long time now.

[Dre]

At 10/9/17 12:48 AM, Dynastywarriors5 wrote: How is it accurate to translate elohim to judges? Do other important men get called elohim? Is there precedent for that? Did they not have a word for judges? And what would the point of God saying 'you shall die like men', if they were just mortal men?

In the language that was used in that time, yes, sometimes these words varied in meaning depending on the context they were used in. Ancient Hebrew is very different from modern English. "Elohim" could mean God, it could mean (idolatrous) gods, "angels", or "powerful people."

What about Deuteronomy 32:8? Both the DSS and the Septuagint have god dividing the nations to his sons.

God's sons are the various tribes of people he scattered across the earth. Deuteronomy 32:8 specifically refers to him choosing the Israelites from among them to be the "chosen" people.

See also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haazinu#Second_reading_.E2.80.94_Deuteronomy_32:7.E2.80.9312
https://books.google.com/books?id=H0HRhUDKrlwC&lpg=PA88&ots=YJv0KzaFwi&dq=Deuteronomy%2032%3A8%20rabbi&pg=PA88#v=onepage&q&f=false

This traditional belief requires a lot of effort to buy into, doesn't it make more sense that psalm 82 says what it plainly says? I really don't see how you can read the hebrew bible without seeing the existance of other elohim. What about genesis 1:26 "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"?

It's difficult to say what it "plainly says" because it's written in such an archaic language. It's anything but plain at all. What we think it "plainly says" is just one of hundreds of different translations.

To really know what it "plainly" said, you would have had to have lived among the ancient people who wrote it and fully understood their language.

There are scholars today who have spent their entire life studying it and still haven't completely deciphered its many different meanings and usages. Modern Hebrew is nothing like the Hebrew used in the bible. It's like comparing Old English to modern English, only even ancient Hebrew is even older than that.

And is this traditional belief from the second temple era or is it rabbinic?

That's a good question. I am not sure.

[Dre]

Just to follow up;

Based on what I understand, Second Temple Era Jews believed that God had assigned nations to "angelic princes" but set aside Israel for himself.

As far as these "angelic princes" being "gods", however, I do not know if that is what they believed. I would reckon that they did not view "angelic princes" in the same way that they would view a god, and it still isn't quite clear if these were ordinary people or actual angels.

[Dre]

At 10/9/17 01:46 AM, Dynastywarriors5 wrote: But if Israel is God's inheritance then what about the other nations? If they have nothing then how are the nations given their inheritance?

I am not sure I understand your question. God ultimately created everything, but set aside Israel as the people with whom he made his covenant.

You can't use rabbinic teaching to interperate the hebrew bible. The rabbinic traditions are centuries removed from the time of conposition.

I think the Rabbinic era was brought about at least in part due to the fact that so much knowledge has been lost in translation and so many misinterpretations of the scripture have arisen since it was codified, that guidance from a dedicated scholar is necessary. I think that without that guidance, there would be far more confusion about what the scripture actually means - it would leave far too much open to individual interpretation.

It says elohim, why doubt it? Why can you be sure about the 'judges' translation?

Because ancient Hebrew is a strongly contextual language. Words can take on many different meanings depending on the context they are used in. Again, it's nothing like modern English. In modern English, "gods" means "gods". In ancient Hebrew, it can mean many different things depending on context.

Then why be sure about anything the bible says?

I don't know for sure what the bible actually says. I just believe. That is the essence of faith. We don't know, but we believe.

[Dre]

At 10/9/17 02:22 AM, Dynastywarriors5 wrote: But we have the hebrew text, so as long as it's translated correctly, translation isn't an issue. I agree with the importance of scholars, but I think think the talmud should be used for interpreting scripture.

That's the thing though. We can't actually tell for certain if it's being translated correctly. It's not as simple as just translating words directly into their English analogs because Hebrew is such a different language.

It's very similar in some respects to Russian (a language I'm fluent in). If I were to translate things word-for-word from Russian into English the text wouldn't make any sense half the time. Because so much of the language depends on context, there is an added layer of translation that has to occur - taking into consideration the context words are used in and the structure of the sentences - before the text makes sense again.

With Hebrew, that problem is made even more difficult by the fact that the language was lost for thousands of years, and wasn't brought back into mainstream usage until recently. The version of Hebrew that is spoken in countries like Israel today isn't anything like the one people spoke back when the scripture was first written.

But why does the context require elohim to mean judges, or any kind of human? It's a moot point because Psalm 89 (5-7) gives us a context of a heavenly council, and compares God to other gods aswell.

That's one of many different interpretations. There is much scholarly debate about the actual meaning of the scripture due to all the different translations and interpretations of them. I'm of the opinion that it refers to judges because of the context the words are used in.

The fact that God says "you shall die as men" to me suggests that he is saying to them "though you are powerful and possess godlike properties, you are still mortals." "You are powerful people, but you are still people nonetheless."

This is of course just my interpretation. I'm not saying I'm necessarily correct. For all I know, you could be right and those could really be gods that he was referring to. I just find it very difficult to believe that any other gods besides God could exist.

Here's a paper on this that you should read.
http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/Heiser%20Elohim%20of%20Ps82%20Gods%20or%20Men%20ETS2010.pdf

Thanks. I will definitely check it out. I have a deep interest in the scripture and am always interested in hearing the various interpretations, even if I don't necessarily always agree with them. I think it's important that we all take the time to study it and try to understand what it all really means. I'm sure we can at least agree on that.

[Gimmick]

Karma's like faith. There's no way to qualify their existence all the time. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't, and maybe it may eventually happen, but it's just a concept humans made up, so who knows?

Also, karma houdinis exist; for them, it certainly ain't real.

[ADR3-N]

At 10/9/17 02:42 AM, Dre wrote:

At 10/9/17 02:22 AM, Dynastywarriors5 wrote: But we have the hebrew text, so as long as it's translated correctly, translation isn't an issue. I agree with the importance of scholars, but I think think the talmud should be used for interpreting scripture.

Going to interject here that the Talmud is a good resource for what the Pharisees believed, and not necessarily a great doctrinal source. The Talmud and rabbinic commentaries are filled with tons of addition and speculation, a lot like the majority of the writings of the Essenes, creating extra rules and private interpretations. But it gives a good idea of the practices Jesus was preaching against, absolutely.

The Seder Olam is a pretty good resource if you can get ahold of a good translation. It was through the Seder Olam I learned that the destructions of both temples happened on the same day.

A day of rewards attracts rewards and a day of guilt attracts guilt. You find it said that the destruction of the First Temple was at the end of Sabbath, at the end of a Sabbatical year, when the priests of the family of Yehoiariv was [sic] officiating, on the Ninth of Ab, and the same happened the second time.

The 9th of Av has been rife with bad karma, aka judgement, ever since 10 of the 12 scouts falsified their reports of the promised land in the book of Numbers out of fear of the giants. Before anyone rolls eyes, giants are widely documented in ancient cultural memory, and allegedly, there is a big coverup in regards to their actual remains. But back to the 9th of Av, if you research it yourself, it starts off seeming as coincidence and ends up being uncanny, much like that quote from the Seder Olam. Even some modern atrocities committed against the Jewish people have happened on the 9th of Av.

With Hebrew, that problem is made even more difficult by the fact that the language was lost for thousands of years, and wasn't brought back into mainstream usage until recently. The version of Hebrew that is spoken in countries like Israel today isn't anything like the one people spoke back when the scripture was first written.

Exactly. I've been studying the early proto-Canaanite and later Phoenician. It's quite remarkable that the alphabet and word forms were as similar to the ancient Hebrew as they are today. If you can read the alphabet, you can pretty well read whatever text or inscription there is. Each letter was a sound represented by a simplified pictograph which was adapted from the more complex hieratic script, and in short order might I add, indicating the Canaanites probably already had a literary system of their own before making such a radical advancement in script. Otherwise, they would have just kept the Egyptian script and adopted their language.

Both of you may enjoy this.

Aside from the clear angle and length, this one is also a good read. The Pethor inscription of the quake is half upside down, but I've taken the time to read it. You can read a little about the writings of Balaam the biblical prophet for hire, the community that revered his writings, and the quake which ultimately destroyed the community and dammed up the Jordan.

For all I know, you could be right and those could really be gods that he was referring to. I just find it very difficult to believe that any other gods besides God could exist.

When the Bible talks about other gods, usually it's inanimate idols or seducing spirits/demons. It's entirely possible elohim could refer to false gods here, though I'd have to meditate on this particular scripture a little more soundly before I committed myself to one interpretation or the other.

Think about it this way. Lower-case elohim can be used to refer to Baal/Molech/Set/Saturn, who are all the same child-eating demon Israel would more often than not go whoring after all throughout scripture, but Elohim and elohim can also refer to the Trinity, angels, judges, or kings.

I think it's important that we all take the time to study it and try to understand what it all really means. I'm sure we can at least agree on that.

There once was a time it was said if you didn't have a solid background in the scriptures, you couldn't consider yourself well educated. I'm inclined to agree. Even if you devalued them to run of the mill literature, it's still some of the most enlightening, interesting, true to life, eloquent material we have had the fortune to inherit, and if it were not so, it would not have survived through the intense persecution the Jews have withstood for millennia. Western society owes a lot of the values we cherish to the scriptures, one of which being justice.