I wouldn't want to be a censor either, but I'll condemn anyone who condemns Tom for his decision. Both options suck. But to imagine being one of the victim's parents, with there being an online game realistically reenacting the murder of your own young child... millions of people playing the murder of your young son or daughter... I think Tom's argument has validity. If there was some generalization, the message would be the same but it would be much more respectful. For the school to be accurately depicted with the same name is a bit much. How far to take it in the name of accuracy? The same faces of the children? The same names? Would the victims be recognizable? No matter how strong the strength of the message of this game, it's hard to conceive it being justified. Besides, I can easily imagine a pro-gun response game where all the killings are carried out with a common handgun like a Glock or a shotgun just as easily. It's contentious that stricter gun regulations, especially the ones proposed this year, could have prevented Sandy Hook. It's difficult to restrict a person who murders in order to steal weapons for a mass shooting.

I'm just simply going to say that Newgrounds has been here day One and still is up and running today. Comparing the freedom Artists have here to the many out there, its almost incomparable. There's all ranges of Material here in Newgrounds, and most of the time it inspires people, offends them, or simply makes them look the other way. If Tom feels it poses a danger to the Site and the Community, then why risk it?. The sites creators have one thing to do, and their doing it right.

Besides the site and material,
These things fall in between the lines of Right and Wrong and everyone has their own merits, its all just a matter of public opinion.

At 11/20/13 05:42 PM, JackofPojo wrote: actually, logic holds a lot more weight in this situation then you might think, for example, you stated that you don't mind giving up your rights for the sake of others feelings, what about the rest of us? Don't we get a say? You can deny yourself such freedoms, but you can not take such freedoms from us for your understanding, unless you are saying you have the right to do that, in which case, why don't I? And if I do, then why can't I take your right to take my rights away away? It is by not using logic, and assuming that we become blinded.

Too many people on this topic are using extreme examples with one sided logic in attempt to win arguments, but the fact is, I didn't take away your right to play the game, Tom didn't either. Tom just doesn't want it on his website, and he has the right to do so, it's his work and reputation.

You still have the right to play the game, just not here on Tom's property. (Try PigPen's website or other places like I did.)

By the way, I have read some PigPen's twitters. The more I read, the more I question his real intention on making the game. I now believe Tom did the right thing.

Super Columbine massacre RPG represents one of the most controversial games in existence, yet it was known as the most important games in history, for the shear fact that it made a shooting game around a school shooting. It was met with the same criticism we are talking about today. I understand why it was pulled, BUT, I also understand that if it was a tasteful representation it should be met with some decorum of respect.

If you doubt me about SCMRPG, check here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo4OeLMbLtg

This is a documentary called Playing Columbine. Trust me, if you watch any documentary, it's this.

How about you stop censoring comments on movies and games? For a website with content borderline offensive, you're pretty prudish when it comes to comments.

At 11/20/13 07:58 PM, bash wrote: this is really funny considering this is the same site that frontpaged the v-tech rampage and oklahoma city bombing games

I'm pretty sure that we never front paged V-Tech.

After reading most of the responses here I can't stand how people are saying that removing this one game is the end of NG.

I have thought that the internet was maturing in the past few years and I think Tom is also. Times have changed even though this site is still pretty free compared to the rest of the web.

At 11/18/13 12:12 PM, ZJ wrote: I've talked about this in more private places, but I'll repeat some of it here. I think you've opened up floodgates, Tom. I understand your concerns about this game, but I feel like you're allowing for various groups of people to want various forms of content removed in the future and they'll be more justified in their request since this was taken down.

And let me put this bluntly: Who will bring more views to this website? PiGPEN or those angry parents? Can modern NG really afford to piss off its content creators?

I dunno. It's a rough spot. I feel for you Tom.

This is not about site visitors ZJ. This is about keeping NG a happy place that doesn't offend or hurt people. I am glad to see Tom still gets involved with NG's visitors and shows humanity, rather than acting like some random corporate businessman.

At 11/18/13 12:18 PM, thekillzar wrote: I think you did the right thing. There was an incident like this years ago where some guy made an RPG based off of the Columbine High school massacre and generated a ton of controversy because people couldn't see the point it was trying to make (and also because they were justifiably upset over it). It attempted to portray the killers in a new light by getting players to see it from their perspective, but that's really tough to look at when some of the audience were personally affected by the people responsible for the tragedy.

Artistic integrity is not enough to protect the game from being taken down. It's something a little too touchy since the victims in this event were very young children. It doesn't matter how you can choose to see it, it's sad and extremely inappropriate. There's no trying to see it from the killer's view. They were kids, they didn't deserve to die.

That's how I think about it, so I'm not sure what the other perspective on it looks like. I support your decision Tom.

I haven't played it, but I honestly don't see the point of trying to get empathy for mass murderers. Most criminals act wrongly due to certain things that happened to them, but mass murderers are by definition out of their minds and evil. I can't put it any differently.

At 11/18/13 12:24 PM, Sequenced wrote: People getting offended and asking admins to remove content from the internet is completely insane. Those folks should just unplug if they keep finding things that insult them.

I'm not gonna say whether it was the right thing to do or not, but I really wish people would stop getting offended from what they see online.

It's not insane, they have a good reason for it. And you talk about 'pulling the plug', but what is seen cannot be unseen. Plus, they don't ask it so that THEY don't have to see it, but for the sake of everyone else who does.
I haven't seen the submission myself, but it's easy to be affected by something if your child was murdered. It hurts.

At 11/18/13 12:27 PM, ZJ wrote:

At 11/18/13 12:20 PM, Fim wrote: My sympathy is completely with the parents of the Sandy Hook victims, who are undoubtedly going through hell right now. It's the least you can do for them to remove a silly game that is causing them heartache.

Okay, I'm gonna stop you there. Where was Tom when his "silly game" called Pico's School was released in 1999? That could have just as easily pissed off parents of the Columbine massacre that happened THAT YEAR. Sure it didn't call out Columbine by name, but it wouldn't take a genius to associate the game with the shooting tragedy. Plus, in terms of quality, that game was pretty advanced for that time in terms of realism, just as this game is for this time.

It's not as simple as it appears. There's decent reasons to get mad at Tom for taking down a game that had effort put into it and wasn't breaking serious rules.

I seriously doubt Pico was made with any real school shooting in mind. It is a game just for fun, with no message or whatsoever. You might want to criticize the Call of Duty franchise as well for being related to wars.

You did the right thing Tom! And it's great you care about what the Newgrounds community thinks!

At 11/21/13 05:46 AM, Gheata wrote: Remove things that encourage homosexual behaviour too., then. Not just the homophobic ones.

uh what?

I just read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-Tech_Rampage
Which says a few things about the author of both the game that's being discussed here and an earlier game called "V-Tech rampage". It seems this guy is a sadistic asshole who has no good intentions whatsoever with his games. The Wiki page even mentions he wanted a $1000 to apologize. Just... unbelievable.

At 11/21/13 10:07 AM, Moebius wrote: How about you stop censoring comments on movies and games? For a website with content borderline offensive, you're pretty prudish when it comes to comments.

I suspect that's a programming fault. Many of my flash reviews have been deleted by M-bot (Or S-bot, or something like that) even though there wasn't anything offensive or rude in them.

Never heard about the game. Though I feel that deleting games that are said to "don't have passion in it" is wrong. Some people just do what they can, not everyone is a game genious, and system of blamming is there to decide if games are good enough to stay. Deciding whether game has enough passion and effort put into it is none of your bussiness, Tom. At least not an ounce more than what your voting powers says it is.

At 11/21/13 02:13 PM, SeelkadoomPL wrote: Never heard about the game. Though I feel that deleting games that are said to "don't have passion in it" is wrong. Some people just do what they can, not everyone is a game genious, and system of blamming is there to decide if games are good enough to stay. Deciding whether game has enough passion and effort put into it is none of your bussiness, Tom. At least not an ounce more than what your voting powers says it is.

When we say a game doesn't have passion, we don't mean that some guy toiled on it in his basement but it still sucked or lacked personality. We mean that in some third world sweatshop, someone making slave wages pasted some different (usually copyrighted) art on the same physics game for the 10,000th time and uploaded it so some fucked up business can shave a few more pennies in ad revenue that day.

At 11/18/13 12:58 PM, TomFulp wrote: I think a lot about that quote from Batman, "You either die a hero, or live long enough to become the villain." So in this case, NG has just survived long enough for me to finally turn my back on what some considered the most compelling thing about the site.

This quote also alludes to the fact that we do not become a villain on our own, but through the condemning of selfish people ("watching yourself become a villain" already foreshadows that our monster-becoming is from outside forces; else we wouldn't become this villain if it was on our own watch). Nobody would hate their lives or threaten the lives of others, unless their life had been threatened, and the host takes an avenging role. There's nothing wrong with the game, let alone the context presented by this game.

Simply because these parents want to complain about one school incident, while ignoring every other school incident before it, or the older movies which depict fictional school gun-violence, does not mean they have any right over your site based upon logic and simply the actual hypocrisy in their intentions. It's emotional; and no right law enforcement let's an emotional parent obfuscate their critical investigations. Tom, the parents you are letting your heart's strings be played by, are the same type that cry "my child would never do such a thing" whenever their child is caught doing something against the law. You should only listen to emotion when it's not founded by hypocrisy and the feigning of ignorance of every other event which encompasses the very event they only make a mountain out of a mole hill with because it was aggrandized for political reasons... Obama fanned the flames for his own selfish agendas by making this sound like the biggest thing ever; he did the same water works for trayvon martin, and the boston bombing... It's parastic politics toying with people's emotions -- nothing more.

I think it was for the best.

If someone takes the time to contact you personally in a situation like this, it is just a moral thing to do. They even said they understand why such a game exists, they didn't come out as blind haters, but seems to me like a respectful request.

Then again Tom, you're the God of NG, you can just do as you please, and acts of kindness like this are appreciated by us mortals in this realm, to me it makes me think that even if this can be a crazy art portal in all its variety of content that seems to have no moral filter, you show respect for non users and users alike.

My respects for your decision, I don't think this is gonna change the freedom of expression we got in here at all.

At 11/20/13 10:56 PM, CypressDahlia wrote:

At 11/20/13 10:40 PM, JackofPojo wrote:
And what did, oh let's say the parents contribute?

They're not OBLIGATED to contribute ANYTHING because they are NOT against his decision. Tom made a decision to remove this game because he felt it was BEST. If you are asking Tom to go against his BEST JUDGMENT then you have an obligation because you are asking him to take losses he CHOSE TO AVOID. Telling him the game shouldn't have been removed is like telling him he should have shot himself in the foot.

So you are not certain?

I'm actually quite certain. But you keep asking me these repetitive, obtuse questions based on slight differences in word choice so I'm just using words that will make YOU happy, sir. Cuz honestly these trifling inquiries are annoying me more than they are challenging me.

...So anyone who talks in this thread must have either your opinion, or want the game put back up?

"Wanting the game back up" and saying it shouldn't have been removed are the same damn thing. The result is the same, being that the game would be hosted on Tom's website.

So you are saying that people are only obliged to contribute something if they do not agree with you? how awfully convenient, let's say for the sake of argument that that was not true, that, say, taking something down discouraged users, who then took their business, and ad revenue elsewhere, then what?
Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? better yet, do you have any proof? If you are certain, you must have definitive evidence, not that it might happen, but that it would happen, without any warning, well?
And are those the only possibilities? Even if they were the same thing, which they aren't but for your sake, let's pretend they are, what about people who disagree with the reason the decision was made?

At 11/21/13 09:00 AM, Quasimodoxxx wrote:

At 11/20/13 05:42 PM, JackofPojo wrote: actually, logic holds a lot more weight in this situation then you might think, for example, you stated that you don't mind giving up your rights for the sake of others feelings, what about the rest of us? Don't we get a say? You can deny yourself such freedoms, but you can not take such freedoms from us for your understanding, unless you are saying you have the right to do that, in which case, why don't I? And if I do, then why can't I take your right to take my rights away away? It is by not using logic, and assuming that we become blinded.

Too many people on this topic are using extreme examples with one sided logic in attempt to win arguments, but the fact is, I didn't take away your right to play the game, Tom didn't either. Tom just doesn't want it on his website, and he has the right to do so, it's his work and reputation.

You still have the right to play the game, just not here on Tom's property. (Try PigPen's website or other places like I did.)

By the way, I have read some PigPen's twitters. The more I read, the more I question his real intention on making the game. I now believe Tom did the right thing.

strange, as I remember your initial point was that you could choose to give up your rights, therefore the game should be taken down, now you are saying that you meant Tom? Their is quite the difference between the two points you see.
Yes, Tom has the right to do with his website as he pleases, no that does not mean we have to agree with his stated reasoning, nor does it mean anyone can give up others rights for any reason.

At 11/18/13 11:58 AM, TomFulp wrote: Over the years, a number of highly offensive games and movies have been published on Newgrounds and despite the hatemail and being dropped by just about every ad company in existence, we held firm on a policy of anti-censorship. Today, however, I pulled a reversal on that policy and maybe it was a huge mistake or maybe it was the right thing to do, I'm sure there will be a variety of opinions on the matter.

It's not like we don't already slip on the censorship policy. We've removed racist and homophobic stuff (moreso than YouTube I would say) and we remove shovelware games built off common templates with zero passion.

This game, however, had a certain level of artfulness and craftsmanship to it. There was a visual and technical quality that revealed a serious level of effort and passion. It also had a political message I personally agree with; a statement on gun control and the problem of gun violence in the US. It attempted to demonstrate how things can play out differently with changes in our gun laws. It made you feel and it made you think.

It did so, however, in the context of the Sandy Hook massacre, recreating the event and putting you in the role of the shooter.

Newgrounds has faced harsh criticism in the past for standing firm on not censoring distasteful material, namely games about school shootings. All I can say is that this game took things to a new level in terms of the age of the victims and the realism of the terror they faced on that day.

I was personally contacted by Sandy Hook parents and they expressed their understanding of what the game was attempting to communicate, but also expressed the sadness and horror it made them feel, and their desire to have it removed. Today I'm choosing respect for the Sandy Hook parents over respect for NG's censorship policies.

Either decision on this matter puts a knot in my stomach. I'm of course interested in hearing thoughts on the matter, especially from artists on the site.

The day Tom Fulp turned into a faggot has finally come. Goddamnit Tom, I thought you were better than this, fucking censorship. And if had a good reason, maybe I'd have agreed with it, but because some people feel offended? I thought Newgrounds was the last haven for people with strong opinions, but no, this is turning into the 'I don't agree with you so I'll ban you' site as well. And fuck anyone who says it isn't that black and white, because the reason this was banned is because it offended some people. You can use that argument for everything. So it is turning into a site for wussies. Goddamnit.

At 11/21/13 02:54 PM, JackofPojo wrote: strange, as I remember your initial point was that you could choose to give up your rights, therefore the game should be taken down, now you are saying that you meant Tom? Their is quite the difference between the two points you see.

I never said "I" have the right to decide whether the game should be taken down. I said if I were Tom, I would do the same, so I support his decision.

Yes, Tom has the right to do with his website as he pleases, no that does not mean we have to agree with his stated reasoning, nor does it mean anyone can give up others rights for any reason.

I don't disagree with you on that, and I don't think I did.

At 11/21/13 03:04 PM, Elitistinen wrote: @Insanctuary

I was wondering when you were going to show up. Great post, great post.

I wasn't very sure if I wanted to share my opinion, actually. I decided for it, though. This thread can be fully explained in two ways:

Emotional vision is always tunnel vision

To be threatened means to have your life in danger, not your feelings

LazyTown did Sandy Hook

Ok, so it happened. Well, I knew it would happen anyway, but it still hits me hard.
How do I put this in words...
When I first used NG, I didn't sign up. It was unnecessary back then, making this site seem more open for everyone to use it. Nowadays, you can't even play some games without doing it.
"Everything. By Everyone."
I loved this motto the first day i entered this site. Tom, I don't know what this motto meant for you, if it weren't hollow words to begin with, but for me, it was the thing that defined this site.
This is why I kept away all of this censorship from my mind. I knew stuff changed, but I didn't want to believe it. I felt that this site begann to lack something...
And here we are now. Forgive my words when I say this, but Tom: Where did your backbone went? I always hoped, no matter what happened to the other sites, that this site and you would never go that low. A lost hope, I see that now.
I'm not going to say "R.I.P. Newgrounds". I'm not going to say that I'll leave and never use this site again. However, I'm going to say the folllowing: As soon as i close the browser, the feeling of freedom the motto of this site gave me will stop to exist. And no matter how often I will come back here, to this place, to the memories of it, it will never come back. This sites meaning has become an empty shell.
Lifeless.
You know Tom, I never shed tears about things lost. This includes much, really. Even one of my great grandparents died, and I didn't shed a tear. Do you want to know why?
Because no matter of his body's dead, his ideals were alive. I could nearly feel them whenever I saw in the eyes of my grandfather. I could always remember him as a hard worker, despite leaving the 80's behind, I could always have the picture of a proud man in my memories.
This has a backside, however: I can't see an ideal, a reason, a meaning die.
Kinda funny: I never really knew all the people on this site or you, Tom, but I could cry about you losing your backbone, about this site whose ideals, whose "Everything. By Everyone", died.
But like I said, maybe you just wanted a few words that look good, ignoring their meaning.
Maybe you read this, if you ever read it, and laugh to yourself how pathetic I am, becoming all emotional about this site and stuff. To me, this site just is a part of my childhood, and one I regret to lose as soon as my comment is finished, as soon as I close the comment box. To you, it might be nothing.
I have to prepare for this part of my memories to become nothing. I have to prepare for this site to become like all the others, turning "Everything" to "Some Things", turning "By Everyone" to "by some people". Becoming like any gaming site on the internet, having no meaning, no identity, nothing that seperates it from the grey mass.
I know that I might be overreacting. I know that it won't end the world or stuff like that.
Heh, who needs "free opinions" and "freedom of speech" anyway, right?
Times have changed, it's the mass of people that matter, not if there are creative inputs or anything.
Well, I got to live with it. I can't change it anyway.
You were always some kind of idol, you know? While writing this, I found that I indeed did look up to you somehow...
Even if something wasn't liked by all people, you let it stay, even to some points where other people would already have removed it, fearing to be disliked by someone. Now that "hero" fell. I guess that's what happens to heroes in general.
Like censorship replaced this sites freedom, someone will replace you as an idol for me, I guess.
Some kind of "moralic circle of life" or something like that.
I'm sure I could write the remaining words full, but the longer I stay, the intenser the memories get, and the more will it hurt when I close the browser. And it will already hurt like hell. In the end, I just hope for you that murdering the spirit of this website is worth it.

Greetings and a respectful goodbye to all previous memories of this site
VB99

What offends me is the piss poor quality, someone attempting to cash in on 'edginess' in lieu of actual talent. Its a clear example of someone trying to cross the line nobody else crosses out of respect, merely to cheat their way to being recognized. The game was bad, its not a loss its gone, and it shared that in common with V-Tech rampage and Super Columbine RPG- which at least had some good effort into them, even if they were baby's first foray into gamemaker.

The substance, however, shouldn't be a factor in the decision to adminblam it. If it actually put gameplay and quality first, the message shouldn't matter, even if it was telling us all to worship satan while raping children. Heck, look at my upload. Thats how its done. I didn't parade around astroturfing /v/ and phoning fox news with false outrage at my game. Its just an enjoyable little irreverent take on violent tragedy, and made entirely because the premise struck me as perfect for a game.

I don't see anything more abhorrent about the sandy hook shootings as a basis than any game based on war or nazis or anything else. I just don't think it would be fun to play a game where you play with AMIGA quality controls in a trendy low-effort stylized monochromatic 3-animation frame main character who inserts Zyklon-B into showers. On a gameplay level, it doesn't work too well because kids don't shoot back. I think it would work better if you generalized the school and had it presented as a "Sim School" game, but you really were playing a dungeon keeper clone where you had to fortress up your school against waves of threats that started with abusive parents, pedophiles, school shooters, bombings, jihadi attacks and so on, with you being able to balance paying for more cops to roam the hallways or counselors to hedge against parents yanking the rest of your kids after a pedo nabs one. Now tell me that wouldn't make quality entertainment.

And again, that game was just shit. It crossed the line, but it didn't cross it twice like you're supposed to. It took itself seriously despite being child's [i]quality[/i], and tried to preach a bleeding heart naive and laughable little bit of impotent liberal demagoguery as if it would distract from the creator pullin a herostratus. Tell you what, you *build* the temple, *then* you're allowed to burn it.

It is too bad that it has come to Newgrounds of all places censoring something or other. I suppose my opinion is one that is biased, my being a person who thinks censorship is obscene and tasteless in itself since it takes away from the realism and such of the real world as well as the meaning and emotion put into a work. It also surprises me that the they would want it removed then, this is not even close to the amount of shock, terror, or anything of the sort that the actual scenario had. And that is both a good and bad thing. In a country such as America where we are constantly desensitized by the constant war and 24 hour news of shootings and violence, we need such a thing expressing powerful emotions to get the message anymore. It is the same tactic that other movements about school shootings have used. Now, I am no artist yet, an aspiring one but not one still. But it would hurt me terribly if I did this for perfectly well intentioned means and it was shot down for being the art of someone who sympathizes with the criminals instead of the victims, eve more so if those people were the victims relatives. However, I would still want it to be existent and accepted because in the end it was not and it did what it was meant to do, show us how terrible and sadly... how easy it was to do. And furthermore, speak against a perfectly relevant problem in relation to the crime, being gun control. I certainly do not agree with the censorship, especially of such a masterpiece in terms of its meaning and befitting gameplay. I do not think it is too hard to understand either sides plight, but the message is being blurred in the process. If you ask my honest opinion, it probably wasn't harsh enough if there was any miscommunication on the well meaning of the game. This is the exact thing we have never done with any other killings story, we have made books upon books about others, criminalized entire races and beliefs in games and ignored the pasts of killers before the shooting all to bring it about in full effect. I would never go on to say the killers are correct in their method of action being killing. What we must realize though is that, it is when people have nowhere to go, no one to listen and truly understand, when they are brushed aside and told that no matter what they are wrong and there is nothing they can do about it, that is when they turn to do something big, to make an impact, that will surely be heard. No one talks louder than the ones who were silenced forever. Its the truth. We need to take everything in stride and honestly think about what will make things better, what will get the message and point across more effectively.

I must admit... I typically side against violence that happens with IRL to an extreme.
I've dealt with rape and murder and molestation in my life with various family members and with other forms of horrid things in my county.
Yet, this censorship seems without purpose or meaning, and exists with sole purpose of satisfying arrogant, cocky, proud heartless men and women who would rather ignore a tragedy than deal with it.
Put simply, people who seek to ignore pain and suffering IRL and refuse to solve pain and suffering and let it spread, like these parents and their kids, are complete assholes.
Coming from someone who deals with this shit, this should say miles.
Tom, you fucked up badly. You performed censorship on your site towards one who broke no rules on your site. I hope this doesn't mean that this horrible choice you made will impact the future of this site. I hope you choose to be a moral decent person. I also hope you show that you care about this site.
But at the moment, you showed that you would rather abandon morality and abandon serving, protecting, and helping your sites contributors and users, in favor of aiding the critics that feel only hatred and anger towards this sites existence.
What next is going to go on? I don't know... most school shootings in the USA are done by horribly abused children, many of which get hospitalized for horrible injuries and broken bones before they decide to finally perform violence. Violence solved by violence, and with people sympathizing with the true villians of what goes on... I can only imagine someday Tom might support mass-genocide towards all children being bullied and beaten so that school shootings don't happen if he ever supports more of this nonsense.
And to all the people supporting Tom, fuck you all you heartless soul-less emotionless fuckers. You lack the ability to feel love, compassion, sympathy, and mercy, just as much as you have no ability to feel anger and hatred. You are more like robots than humans.

Although I myself have never seen this game, I have been told about it by my friends. I do find myself interested in the statement the creator of the game was attempting to portray, but I do feel that it may have been a bit too... controversial a topic and too soon at that. Far too soon. However, as I can't help my gamer nature, I think that if this game is what I've been told it is, it must have been brilliant in its execution to have positive supporters even though the topic was terrible in and of itself. Though I know I'll catch flak for this, I wish the game wouldn't have been taken down, simply so I could experience what the game was trying to make me experience.

No matter how I feel about the game itself does not cloud how I feel about how Fulp reacted, though. I feel that in honor of the Sandy Hook families, and the victims themselves, taking the game down was the only honorable thing that could have been done. Keeping a game like that on the site when the families respectfully asked, not demanded, but asked, would have been a terrible mistake on Newgrounds' part.

Thank you for your time,
BludThursty
tl;dr- I wanted to play the game, but think it was good they took it off.