Honestly, I hear this idea being thrown around so much. There was even an article on CNN talking about how only idiots believe in religion and that the world would be so much better if nobody believed in G-d.

I find this insulting on two accounts: First off, how are people going around decrying the evils of religion and telling believers that they are mindless drones any different than evangelicals or WBC going around telling you you're going to hell? Both groups are essentially the same: people who believe that if you don't agree with them, you are lower than dirt.

What I find really disturbing is that the majority of the anti-religion zealots almost exclusively attack Christians. Why single out Christians? Why not Jews too? We believe in the same thing, (albeit they wrote up a sequel) so why call out Jews on our supposed idiocy in believing in religion? If someone took a break from calling Christianity stupid and started shouting out how stupid Judaism is, people would shout "anti-Semitism!" and rightly so.

I can truly understand why some are mad at religion. It was technically religion that started the Crusades, 9/11, and crucifixion. There are are a lot of religious tribal conflicts which spark violence across the world.

But those are religious extremists. Those who overanalyze scripture will inevitably take it too far. And while it isn't good to follow the rules of scripture and only scripture, religion is not inherently a bad thing. They all profess basic moralities like treating others well. It's perfectly fine and rational to believe in a G-d-all civilizations have had dominant beliefs in a divine creator(s) since ancient times. As long as you live in a balance between religion and modernity, there's nothing stupid about that.

At 1/16/13 12:36 AM, Ranger2 wrote: What I find really disturbing is that the majority of the anti-religion zealots almost exclusively attack Christians. Why single out Christians?

I think it probably has something to do with their prevalence and influence in Western society. A lot of people are bitter about the things Christians do or try to do. anti gay marriage movement, anti abortion movement, anti stem cell research movement, trying to have creationism taught in schools, etc.

Personally, I don't have a problem with Christianity or any other religion as a whole, or at least not all religious people. Most of my dad's side of my family is Irish Catholic, and they're all very nice people. And my grandma on my mom's side is a devout baptist and I'm fond of her as well.

At 1/16/13 12:36 AM, Ranger2 wrote: I can truly understand why some are mad at religion. It was technically religion that started the Crusades, 9/11, and crucifixion.

Crucifixion wasn't done for religious purposes. It was done for political reasons. Jesus wasn't even the only person crucified in the Bible, David for example crucified all of Saul's sons so he would be the undisputed leader of Israel (yah the Bible is kind of full of assholes like that, which is part of the reason people argue it's barbaric).

There are are a lot of religious tribal conflicts which spark violence across the world.

I can't think of many tribal religious disputes, it's usually some tribes adopt a branch of a major religion and come into conflict like in Iraq. But in terms of religions exclusive to a tribe they tend to be more or less accepting of other religions or at least not sure what to make of them. They don't tend to put much thought into other religions and since they tend to be polytheistic don't really care if there are other gods since it doesn't contradict their own religion.

But those are religious extremists. Those who overanalyze scripture will inevitably take it too far. And while it isn't good to follow the rules of scripture and only scripture, religion is not inherently a bad thing. They all profess basic moralities like treating others well. It's perfectly fine and rational to believe in a G-d-all civilizations have had dominant beliefs in a divine creator(s) since ancient times. As long as you live in a balance between religion and modernity, there's nothing stupid about that.

I my opinion religious extremists have a point. Religion has just become so trivial in Western Society that it's not strictly adhered to very often and when it is people are looked at as insane. But logically if religion is the most important thing in your life (which going by what religion is, it should be) then why are people so willing to give up aspects of their religion in order to conform with new developments? For example there are Catholics who don't care what the Pope says and go off and take Birth control pills. This is usually said to deflect prejudice against Catholics when the Pope does something insane. But this misses the point, if you don't care what the Pope says then you're not really a Catholic? There's no reason to be one if you don't care what the Pope says. After all hundreds of years ago you would start your own church if you wanted to do disagree with the pope.

And this becomes the overarching problem, religious moderates try to negate parts of the Bible in Christianity because they're incompatible with modernity. For example you can't have slaves. You're also supposed to love God instead of fearing him. They claim parts of the Bible is metaphor, but this opens up a dangerous Precedent one that the Catholic Church knew would be harmful had it been set, if one part of the Bible is a metaphor, what parts of the Bible are not? What you're essentially doing is trying to have your cake and eat it too (that saying is kind of dumb though), trying to have all the benefits of the religion without any of the costs or the strict obedience. As though your god changed over the years to conform to modern beliefs and values. This is why i think Fundamentalists are standing in the most logical position in terms of religion, they have principles, their religion told them something thousands of years ago and it hasn't changed so why should they change their beliefs and worship?

At 1/16/13 12:36 AM, Ranger2 wrote:

First off, how are people going around decrying the evils of religion and telling believers that they are mindless drones any different than evangelicals or WBC going around telling you you're going to hell?

One it true, the other is false.
See the difference?

What I find really disturbing is that the majority of the anti-religion zealots almost exclusively attack Christians.

No. All religions are stupid. There's regular attacks on all of it.
Ever heard of draw Mohammed day? Or Scientology? Or Mormons?

But those are religious extremists.

Except they aren't.
Go to any country where the religious powers haven't been kicked out, you'll find literally millions of people who have no problems with stoning women to death, abusing kids and being insane violent psychopaths.
All throughout history, your so-called "extremists" have been in power, reprensenting the majority of their religion.

Heck, the majority of Christians in America don't accept the theory of evolution. That's millions of people who are definitely 100% stupid.

At 1/16/13 03:11 AM, poxpower wrote: One it true, the other is false.

Since when did ever that have any bearing on an emotional issue? If you have ever spent time with a girlfriend or wife you would very clearly know that being right doesn't make you right when it comes to emotional issues. Religion is an emotional issue (meaning that religion exists almost entirely within the realm of emotion, not logic).

Except they aren't.

Yes they are.

Go to any country where the religious powers haven't been kicked out, you'll find literally millions of people who have no problems with stoning women to death, abusing kids and being insane violent psychopaths.

And numerous atheists have no problems with executing criminals here either. There are atheist pedophiles as well. There are insanely violent atheists. So, in the end, ALL ATHEISTS ARE EXTREMIST, as per Pox.

All throughout history, your so-called "extremists" have been in power, reprensenting the majority of their religion.

Th extremists are in power precisely because they're extreme. They're willing to do things regular people are not in order to gain and hold power.

Heck, the majority of Christians in America don't accept the theory of evolution. That's millions of people who are definitely 100% stupid.

Those polls have been shown to be skewed. If only 48% of the evangelicals believe the Bible is ultimate truth (and they're far higher than any other Judeo Christian religion), how could more than half believe genesis is the ultimate truth? I'll trust the poll taken by a religious group, who would have no benefit it showing less support for religion, over a secular group who would benefit in showing too much support for religion.

At 1/16/13 01:27 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

And numerous atheists have no problems with executing criminals here either.

Being an atheist isn't a belief.
You can't compare "being an atheist" with "being religious".

It's like comparing "playing a sport" with "not being in a book club". It doesn't make sense.

An atheist could literally believe or do anything.

But statistically speaking, they are better people in just about every way, if you want to waste your time caring about that.

The real issue is that religion is false. No amount of saying atheists do this or that can change it.

Th extremists are in power precisely because they're extreme. They're willing to do things regular people are not in order to gain and hold power.

What's an extremist? It's someone who is extreme. Outside of the norm. When you're in power and you have millions of people backing you up, you're not an "extremist".

If you read the quran for instance, it says the penalty for leaving the religion is death. It says that. It's not unclear or a mistake.

Why would you think it's extreme to follow that if you're a muslim?

Those polls have been shown to be skewed.

Dude it's like EVERY SINGLE POLL.
You can't find a poll that doesn't say at least a nice 30+% of Americans reject evolution.

Why would you even think religious polls would show MORE acceptance of it? Lol. They're the ones rejecting it in the first place, if they ever polled people, they'd want to show that more Americans agree with them, because that's how they think "If more people are with me, then I must be correct!".

At 1/16/13 12:36 AM, Ranger2 wrote: Honestly, I hear this idea being thrown around so much. There was even an article on CNN talking about how only idiots believe in religion and that the world would be so much better if nobody believed in God.

;;;
Once again the same damn problem ....people completely incapable of grasping the concept , YOU DON"T HAVE TO BE A MEMBER OF A RELIGIOUS CULT to believe in a higher power , which for this reply lets call it God, ( because its easy to spell )

Both groups are essentially the same: people who believe that if you don't agree with them, you are lower than dirt.

;;;
I have yet to meet an atheist who has looked down their nose at me, or refused to marry me is another example, because I am not a believer in any organized religious group & refused to join. Yet I have not only personally been exposed to negativity because these so called peaceful people of god take exception to my refusal to accept their religious bullshit.

What I find really disturbing is that the majority of the anti-religion zealots almost exclusively attack Christians. Why single out Christians? Why not Jews too?

I have been perfectly happy to call Jews, Muslims, Mormans, Jehova's, Harikirshna's, my own mother on their cultist activities & my disagreement with same.

I can truly understand why some are mad at religion.

I am not even slightly mad at religion , its the lost, mind twisted members of the cults that I take exception to !
I have gone so far as to put Pastafarian on employment documents & that I am a member of the church of the F.S.M. to simply point out how stupid religion is although this isn't just stupid this is more wrongness & IMo screws with society by allowing religious people to discriminate with government sanction !
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/antigay-righ ts-to-stay-20130115-2crma.html

religion is not inherently a bad thing. They all profess basic moralities like treating others well.

;;;; Ah yes ... treating others well , as long as they don't believe in a differnet all powerful invisible unprovable figment of the imagination than we "TRUE BELIEVERS" do.
THen baby all bets are off , & killing them , enslaving them, denying them even 'human status' is fine !

As long as you live in a balance between religion and modernity, there's nothing stupid about that.

;;;;
Perhaps its not 'stupid' but you know what it really is, its fucking arrogant !
Its the height of fucking arrogance to attempt to foster or put forward that your religious beliefs & your god is & has to be the one & only god !
That no other religious group or no other religion presently in practice or the many ancient ones that are now defunct & only You & your religion has got it right.

And that my friend is Damn Wrong & Nothing that IS WRONG, can every be truely Right ...how can something be right when its flawed & has wrongness in its very makeup ? ? ?

At 1/16/13 03:00 PM, morefngdbs wrote: Once again the same damn problem ....people completely incapable of grasping the concept , YOU DON"T HAVE TO BE A MEMBER OF A RELIGIOUS CULT to believe in a higher power , which for this reply lets call it God, ( because its easy to spell )

Refer to it as god with a lowercase and it means god as the regular noun, not God as the proper noun.

A larger number, and constantly growing, number of what the anti-religious villify as 'religious' are exactly this. Sure, they go to a church a handful of times a year, but in reality, they practices their beliefs as they wish. The mere indentification with a religion does not make one lock step with the religion, or a suicide bomber as Pox so wishes to believe.

I have yet to meet an atheist who has looked down their nose at me,

fdbs, meet Pox.

Yet I have not only personally been exposed to negativity because these so called peaceful people of god take exception to my refusal to accept their religious bullshit.

Perhaps you need to find new friends. I have met a ton more religious people who couldn't give a third of a shit about what I believe than those who cared, let alone those who acted differently because of it.

Also, have you ever wondered that maybe it isn't the religion that gets them riled up, but rather the general assholery that comes off when an atheist tries to convert a religious person? Think of it this way: don't you hate when a religious person ridicules you for your beliefs? Don't you hate it when they try to get you to go to church? So why do so many atheists think it;s A-OK for an Atheist to dothe exact same thing?

What annoys me about vocal atheists is the massive hypocrisy. They shame religions for shaming religions. They try to convert the religious because the religious try to convert others. They are rude to the religious because the religious are rude to the others. They join a religion in order to be anti-religious. To an outsider (one who is neither religious nor atheist) atheists act exactly like those they abhorr. Yet they somehow think that they have the high road and thus have earned the right to do this.

I have been perfectly happy to call Jews, Muslims, Mormans, Jehova's, Harikirshna's, my own mother on their cultist activities & my disagreement with same.

And this is exactly why you are no different than they are.

;;;; Ah yes ... treating others well , as long as they don't believe in a differnet all powerful invisible unprovable figment of the imagination than we "TRUE BELIEVERS" do.

You're mixing someone being an asshole with someone being religious. Again, I think you need a new set of people around you. Sounds like you're just around a bunch of jerks who use religious to cover the fact that they are morally corrupt.

The huge super majority of religious people I have met treat all with kindness regardless of their religion.

Perhaps the glee you come off telling others their life is wrong and everything they rest their emotions and life upon is not only wrong but stupid; perhaps that is why relgious people treat you poorly. You're trying to catch bees with a knife when we all know it's easier to catch bees with honey. The next relifious person you meet, try not telling them how wrong they are (you know, use simple kindness) and see how nicely they treat you.

Perhaps its not 'stupid' but you know what it really is, its fucking arrogant !

Hello pot, meet mr. Ebony Kettle.

Its the height of fucking arrogance to attempt to foster or put forward that your religious beliefs & your god is & has to be the one & only god !

Fixed to read: It's the height of fucking arrogance to attempt to foster or to put forward that your religious belief in the lack of god has to be the only way a person can live without being a retard.

And that my friend is Damn Wrong & Nothing that IS WRONG, can every be truely Right ...how can something be right when its flawed & has wrongness in its very makeup ? ? ?

Like the whole point of atheism being more religious than the religious? That's wrong? How can ahteism be so right when that is so wrong?

It's as if atheists have never heard of the term "live and let live".

At 1/16/13 03:37 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 1/16/13 03:00 PM, morefngdbs wrote: Its the height of fucking arrogance to attempt to foster or put forward that your religious beliefs & your god is & has to be the one & only god !

Fixed to read: It's the height of fucking arrogance to attempt to foster or to put forward that your religious belief in the lack of god has to be the only way a person can live without being a retard.

;;;
As usual Camaro you read into it & twist it the best way you know how.
Its all you got pick apart someone else even when you are 150% wrong about all of it.
But you obviously missed the I'm not an atheist or even agnostic.
I do believe in a higher power, I just know fer sure, no religious cult has figured it out .

And that my friend is Damn Wrong & Nothing that IS WRONG, can every be truely Right ...how can something be right when its flawed & has wrongness in its very makeup ? ? ?

Like the whole point of atheism being more religious than the religious? That's wrong? How can ahteism be so right when that is so wrong?

It's as if atheists have never heard of the term "live and let live".

Again & again , you are incapable of grasping &/or you confuse having no religious affilitation meaning then one must be an atheist , how very judgemental of you ... & hopefully the sarcasm on the 'mental' is shining through !

Another thing thats a for sure ...if there is a god, humans don't ever have to worry about it ever paying any attention to any of us here, or to this insignificant dust particle we call a planet !

At 1/16/13 12:36 AM, Ranger2 wrote: Honestly, I hear this idea being thrown around so much. There was even an article on CNN talking about how only idiots believe in religion and that the world would be so much better if nobody believed in G-d.

I find this insulting on two accounts: First off, how are people going around decrying the evils of religion and telling believers that they are mindless drones any different than evangelicals or WBC going around telling you you're going to hell? Both groups are essentially the same: people who believe that if you don't agree with them, you are lower than dirt.

I'll agree with this. I personally agree with the topic title and while I have my own spiritual beliefs, I don't subscribe to any form of organized religion. More importantly, though, I keep my religious beliefs to myself. Just because I believe a certain way that others don't doesn't make their beliefs necessarily wrong, just necessarily different than mine. This is neither good nor bad, and I endeavor to show my understanding of that premise by not attacking people based on their religion, although I will criticize religious bodies when they act in a way that is contrary to their stated principles.

What I find really disturbing is that the majority of the anti-religion zealots almost exclusively attack Christians. Why single out Christians? Why not Jews too? We believe in the same thing, (albeit they wrote up a sequel) so why call out Jews on our supposed idiocy in believing in religion? If someone took a break from calling Christianity stupid and started shouting out how stupid Judaism is, people would shout "anti-Semitism!" and rightly so.

I can truly understand why some are mad at religion. It was technically religion that started the Crusades, 9/11, and crucifixion. There are are a lot of religious tribal conflicts which spark violence across the world.

But those are religious extremists.

I can't speak for other religions, but I know in Christianity there is a verse where God essentially says that if you don't follow the exact letter of his teachings, you are in violation of the pact he made with Adam and thus not deserving of God's grace, which pretty much includes every Christian alive today.

Those who overanalyze scripture will inevitably take it too far. And while it isn't good to follow the rules of scripture and only scripture, religion is not inherently a bad thing. They all profess basic moralities like treating others well. It's perfectly fine and rational to believe in a G-d-all civilizations have had dominant beliefs in a divine creator(s) since ancient times. As long as you live in a balance between religion and modernity, there's nothing stupid about that.

Well, first off, let's separate out the "basic moralities" argument, because there are dozens of secular systems that feature many of the same moral beliefs that we credit Christianity with. These basic moralities aren't exclusively offered by religion, so the idea we need religion to have these basic moral truths in our society is fallacial.

Now, given the way religion is used in our civilization (worldwide), I would have to argue that religion is stupid in its current context, especially when you have religiously driven governments in conflict with each other with the potential for all-out war developing featuring nuclear, chemical and biological weapons. Religion as it is used in some parts of the planet is not only stupid, it's inherently dangerous as it may be the tool with which we unmake our civilization.

At 1/16/13 08:48 PM, morefngdbs wrote: you confuse having no religious affilitation meaning then one must be an atheist , how very judgemental of you

I thought you said were atheist a while. It's more likely I am mixing you up with what others have said because you were exuding the same attitude those people had.

Either way, my point stands. The best way to get religious folk to not look down on you is to leave them alone about their religion. The fact you said you were happy to point out their flaws and the glee I could see in your writing about how they were wrong made me, most likely rightfully so, believe that you were one who loves to confront others about their religion and generally sets a negative tone for such encounters, thus deserving the treatment.

Your response here has yet to dispel that aura you gave off.

Another thing thats a for sure ...if there is a god, humans don't ever have to worry about it ever paying any attention to any of us here, or to this insignificant dust particle we call a planet !

We still have to live here. It may be the lead up to an eternity of whatever afterward, but we still spend the entirety of our lives here, and we should still do our best to ensure that we keep this place as best we can for those around us now and those who come afterward.

At 1/16/13 10:50 PM, 4761 wrote:

Both groups are essentially the same: people who believe that if you don't agree with them, you are lower than dirt.

They also both eat food.
So essentially, they are the same. Essentially means they have one or two similarities, right? That's what the word means?
Probably.

Mugs and elephants are essentially the same; they both exist, are affected by gravity and contain atoms. They differ only on minor points.

If they were raised in Muslim countries they would speak against Islam.

Well no, cause they'd get arrested and killed : D

When anyone follows a belief without the slightest appropriate skepticism, whether it be religion or secular ethical codes, they are more likely to become stubborn.

Can you give one example of a secular ethical or moral code that people follow dogmatically?

At 1/17/13 01:01 AM, poxpower wrote: Can you give one example of a secular ethical or moral code that people follow dogmatically?

Political correctness.

Game.

Set.

Match.

Poxpower's argument against religion is an argument against status quo. Don't blame religion for being abused by society. It is a tool, not a hand.

At 1/17/13 01:15 AM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 1/17/13 01:01 AM, poxpower wrote: Can you give one example of a secular ethical or moral code that people follow dogmatically?

Political correctness.

Game.
Set.
Match.

Lol it's cute when you think you make points.

Anyway, that is one correct answer. I wanted to see what he'd say.

At 1/16/13 01:27 PM, Camarohusky wrote: Religion is an emotional issue (meaning that religion exists almost entirely within the realm of emotion, not logic).

Oh yeah totally. The issue of 'is Jesus the son of God' is a matter of emotion, not facts! Although the statement 'Jesus was born of a virgin' totally sounds like a statement of fact, it is actually just an expression of emotion!

What a load of horseshit

At 1/17/13 07:22 AM, Earfetish wrote: Oh yeah totally. The issue of 'is Jesus the son of God' is a matter of emotion, not facts! Although the statement 'Jesus was born of a virgin' totally sounds like a statement of fact, it is actually just an expression of emotion!

You don't get it. You just don't.

You're trying to make your crying wife/grilfriend feel better by telling her how to solve her problem. (If you don't understand how this analogy applies you'll never understand why religion exists and why it actually is a good thing.)

Religion is an emotional issue in that religion is meant to fill an emotional need. I know it's hard for some to understand but humans have emotions and those emotions are expressed in a variety of ways and satiated in others.

What a load of horseshit

The only horeshit here is the idea of correctness having any bearing on how religion affects people's lives.

Those who claim to be not religious are sure as hell masters of puffery when it comes to open mindedness...

At 1/17/13 10:08 AM, Camarohusky wrote: Those who claim to be not religious are sure as hell masters of puffery when it comes to open mindedness...

"While it is good to be open-minded, you don't want to be so open-minded that your brain falls out."
- someone smarter than me

Yes you could say 'your dog has gone to heaven' or 'God cares for you' when your gf is crying, but it is a load of irrelevance and has absolutely no baring on organised religion. I'm not close-minded - I read the New Testament on the toilet. Judas either throws his silver pieces on the floor and hangs himself in Matthew, or he uses them to buy a field and dies while he's ploughing it in Acts. Believing in the NT when it contains internal contradictions is too open-minded, and the statement 'Jesus died for your sins' is (allegedly) a statement of fact and should be treated as such. Saying the argument 'is emotional' is just shutting down debate.

At 1/17/13 12:57 AM, Camarohusky wrote:

At 1/16/13 08:48 PM, morefngdbs wrote: you confuse having no religious affilitation meaning then one must be an atheist , how very judgemental of you

Either way, my point stands. The best way to get religious folk to not look down on you is to leave them alone about their religion. The fact you said you were happy to point out their flaws and the glee I could see in your writing about how they were wrong made me, most likely rightfully so, believe that you were one who loves to confront others about their religion and generally sets a negative tone for such encounters, thus deserving the treatment.

;;;;
You couldn't be further from the target if you turned around & looked behind yourself !
;;;
First off I have NEVER not even once, knocked on someones door to talk to them about my religious beliefs. Yet when I lived in the city , I had mormon's & jehova's do that to me many times .
Instead of telling them to piss off or refusing to speak to them or any other rude or ignorant act , I was polite & when they offered to share their views I invited them in & listened to their side & then stated my side.
Secondly I get no glee from any of this, it saddens me too much to be able to find anything in it to be happy about it. My own mother an elder in her church, is/has been taken advantage of & when I have pointed it out over the years. I used to get such a cold shoulder or even worse, now lately my Mum has actually agreed that -quote- "there has been some times where the 'people' in charge sometimes expect to much & put their priorities in front of mine without asking" -unquote
Third my exwife & I were getting married a number of years ago, she wanted a religious ceremony ... my mother certainly did, so did hers. But the minister of my mums church refused to marry us, because I wasn't a practicing member of the United Church of Canada. THat her mother , herself & my mother were, didn't make a difference to this minister (who I had gone to school with & knew for almost 20 years) she wanted me to take "education classes" first.
Ya ...right, like its going to make a difference when all the church I was forced into as a kid didn't do anything but convince me all religions are cults. All religions are flawed.
I got married in a civil ceremony, I would have been happier to have had a voodoo ceremony or even better a Rastafarian ceremony. But I don't even know if there is such a thing available in Nova Scotia ... but for the Rasta's at least the ganja part would have been fun !

THat millions of people waste so much of their lives & all for the so called 'promise of reward' AFTER YER DEAD ....but give us your time, your money, & do as we say & you'll be rewarded in the after life !
I get no glee or any happiness knowing that this is all bullshit.

Finally have you ever bothered to speak to your clergyman/woman & ask them exactly what happens to you in heaven ? They don't have any answers. They don't know anymore about it than youor I or anyone else reading this right now.

They haven't got a clue, about what happens next. All they have is fleece you now & in allowing them to do so NOW .... You'll be rewarded in the afterlife ...that we know nothing about !

And I have absolutely no problem pointing that out at every opportunity .

At 1/17/13 02:50 PM, Korriken wrote:

you're so blind you don't even notice. it IS the same thing. a lack of belief is still a belief.

The distinction between not believing in a thing and believing a thing doesn't exist has been made to you probably dozens of times already over the years and for some reason you willingly refuse to acknowledge it. Or maybe you aren't able to.

Who knows.

An atheist could literally believe or do anything.

An atheist cannot believe in a deity. , or else he would not be an atheist.

Fine, except THAT.
haha

If you say so. Keep believing that.

Atheism is correlated with lower crime, higher education, higher IQ, higher scientific achievement, more progressive morals etc. etc.

The only thing I can think of that religious people do slightly better at is charity.

The real issue is that religion is false. No amount of saying atheists do this or that can change it.

you make the claim. now prove it.

Prove that religion is made up?

Well by your standards of proof, it's impossible, but that's why people call you an idiot. That's why, if you were to be logically consistant, you'd go around saying there's no such thing as horses and that evolution is a fairy tale because we don't have a 5 billion year old movie featuring the lives of every single animal from you all the way back to simple chains of chemicals.

By anyone's rational and reasonable standards for evidence, religious are obviously man-made for multiple reasons I won't waste my time going into now. Suffice to say that you could watch any Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins debate on it and know 20 reasons in one hour.

Firstly, In my timezone it is late at night. so this post is to bookmark the thread until I can continue in the morning.
Secondly, I'm speaking as a practicing Christian

I think the problem is linked to culture, politics and to some degree race. Christianity was adopted in places like America, where Western culture is also predominant. but the conflict comes because this culture is kinda irresponsible (I get that responsibility can be a burden) and self-centred. So they expect others to conform to the laws of Christianity, but not themselves. this is hypocritical and so hated. If many Christians actually practiced/applied core principles of their religion, they would be more productive and less targeted. Principles such as love, forgiveness, reconciliation, etc. but this contradicts mainstream ideas like retaliation or vengeance. What I'm basically saying is that, while Christians may seem too strong-willed for their own good, they are actually too weak/shallow.

At 1/17/13 10:41 AM, Earfetish wrote: Saying the argument 'is emotional' is just shutting down debate.

Not at all. It's steering the debate in the right direction. Just as you can't solve your wife's emotional problem by trying to fix it, you can;'t understand an emotional connection or need using pure logic. The biggest problem I see here is that people seem to be judging the entire merits of religion on the mythology. You know what I say to that? Fuck the mythology. The mythology only makes up a very small part of the actualy user experience when it comes to religion. Most religious people know that the stories are suspect and better serve as fables. The mythology and dogma almost always takes a back seat to the guidance, community, and fulfilment that religion provides. People don;t join religions because they want to believe fantastic stories. They join religions because they have emotional needs that religion helps fill. Religion provides a community. Religion provides a simple and preset list of morals and rules. Most important of all, religion provides comfort to peoples lives when nothing else can. This is why I defend religion, not because of whether it is correct or not, but because it helps people.

And as was pointed out above, religion is a tool, and it is most often used for good, and only occasionally used for bad. When it is used for bad it is nothing more than a conduit for a pre-existing negative outlook (think violent video games and shootings).

@ dbs
I realize that reading emotion through a screen is difficult, but I feel genuinely sorry for what happened. Y'know humans in general range from well-intentioned to backstabbing maggots and any division of human is no exception, even religion. It's easier to write off humanity as a whole rather than a small target of people. You're probably not gonna like this, but it was mentioned by Theburningliberal in the thread that:
[everyone is] not deserving of God's grace, which pretty much includes every Christian alive today.

this may be why atheism has so much appeal: it presents itself is a fortress that guards you against people. In essence what Cam is saying holds truth in that it placates some emotional need. But it is just another division of people, complete with well-intentioned to backstabbing maggots.

This may be the answer the original poster was looking for. Atheists attack Christians because they feel wronged or hurt and so it is internally justified as retaliation, but externally presented as pointing out a flaw.

@dbs
I feel you deserve an apology so I apologise on behalf of the minister. What he did was wrong and this is what happens when you try to make a religion into a corporation.

You know what is really stupid? Feeling a need put down others because your view is different.

Did anyone in this thread actually read the article?

"I do not want religion to go away. I only want religion to be kept at home or in church where it belongs. ItâEUTMs a personal effect, like a toothbrush or a pair of shoes. ItâEUTMs not something to be used or worn by strangers. I want my children to be free not to believe and to know that our schools and our government will make decisions based on what is logical, just and fair-not on what they believe an imaginary God wants."

You're all kind of arguing a red herring here. No sensible atheist would think of blurting out "all religious people are stupid." Such a person doesn't exist. If you want to refute that, show me one and I'll tell you why you're wrong.

"Atheist Extremists," a term that is just grossly misused, don't believe religious people are stupid. They believe they're wrong. There's a difference, and that's about as extreme as it gets. The ACA (relevant, as this article is based in Texas) is not the same thing as the WBC; I don't care how hard you try to compare them.

Also, the OP is seems rather absent from this discussion.

At 1/18/13 08:11 PM, 4761 wrote: Oh wait. That doesn't happen. You say that "I can't solve my wife's emotional problems" yeah well, are you trying to say religion can?

You must be single, caused you missed this one by a mile.

You can tell your wife/girlfriend everything about how to fix her problems and all you will do is make her more mad. All she wants to to be comforted and validated. You can try to understand why people are so connected to religion with logic, but in the end, it's all about comfort and connection. Unless you get this empotional connection you will never understand religion.

What are emotions? Nothing but a vast array of neurological reactions to certain situations designed to keep us mentally stable and physically well (except for the time where it doesn't keep us well).

And religion helps keep millions mentally stable and physically well. You would rob them of this, why? (you're a dick, that's why)

Oh yeah, fuck mythology. You know, the very things that are supposed to elucidate the so-called good morals to the practitioner. The stories that were supposed to explain unexplainable but now unexplainable occurrences.

That's part of the emotional connection. Instead of having these vast empty holes of pure guesses about what exists around us, it allows those people to fill the holes and go on with the merry lives.

We're not debating user experience here. We are debating religion and all of its good and evil. The sociological, cultural, and political implications of religion impact far more than simply user experience.

That's wrong. The core of religion is the user experience. Everything else is nothing other than a product of the humans involved.

But that's not the point we're making. The point we're making is that there are so many heinous morals expounded in these fables and that they should never be part of the experience to begin with. Of course more people realize that these stories are fictional, but the argument here is that they were never useful to begin with and they are further proof that the idea of God that many worship is a narcissistic fiend or that religion is very deceitful.

The only narcissism here is the idea that not believing in god makes one better than those who do.

If someone chooses to believe outlandish thing sin order for them to live an ordinary life, so be it. Also, have you eve noticed that the morals you hate in religion are only followed by those who don't like the concept to begin with? Most religious folk break rules left and right, and only follow those they want to follow. In other wrods they choose the morals to follow. Those religious who hate gays don't hate gays because the religion says so. They hate them because they hate them and use the religion as a cover.

What kind of guidance, exactly? What kind of guidance does religion give that already couldn't be given without its existence?

Nothing. But that's irrelevant. They gravitate to religion not because it's the sole place guidance can be found, but because it is a place where guidance is EASY to find. It's a preset guide where everything is laid out for you.

So does terrorism. Get enough terrorists who share the same values together and they will treat themselves with the utmost respect and share wholesome pastimes and duties.

And? Your point?

The point is you don't need religion to be a part of a larger community. If one cranes their neck the other way, they might spot a community that is all right for them without having to adhere to strict moral codes, lies, stories, dogma, etc...

Again it's not about religion being the only place to find community. It's about a pre-existing community already being in place.

The growth of such communities outside of religion has been a large factor in the decline of religion recently.

When nothing else can?

Sound slike you've lived a cuhsy life and never struggled for anything. I have had tough times and I can tell you it's fucking hard to find things to comfort you when everything around you is a reminder of how shitty things have gotten. Religion is one of the few concepts that is taught as unconditional in our lives.

For people to be lied to and told that everything will be better just for the sake of having them comforted?

Hell yes it's OK. I'd rather die in comfort and ignorance than in full knowledge and in pain (physicl or emotional).

We are not supposed to be comforted. We are supposed to solve our problems or at least try to solve them.

Again, armchair quarterbacking from a 1st world rich kid on his computer seat.

Not all problems in life can be solved. Dead relatives will not come back. Lost organs will not grow back. Terminal diseases will not go away. Lost loves rarely come back. Lost jobs rarely come back. Past mistakes cannot be unmade.

Yes, we can all move on, but part of moving on is accepting where you have gone, and religion helps millions od this every day.

This is why I defend religion, not because of whether it is correct or not, but because it helps people.

Religion causes more problems,

Those problems are human problems caused by humans weaknesses, such as greed, ingorance, hatred and so on. Those things still exist in equal number in secular communities. Religion, in those cases, is nothing but a tool of a secular ill.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

That is pretty clear. You are so set in your religious hatred of religion that you cnnot see simple facts in front of you: Billions love religion as religion has given them a lot. I suggest you stop doing what you preach to hate (labelling vast swaths of people) and start ATTEMPTING to understand, as the non-religious are supposed to be ore undertanding, right? Prove that notion right, not wrong.

At 1/18/13 04:46 AM, shieldurhope wrote: @ dbs
I realize that reading emotion through a screen is difficult, but I feel genuinely sorry for what happened. Theburningliberal in the thread that:
[everyone is] not deserving of God's grace, which pretty much includes every Christian alive today.

;;;
I go by More actually, & you certainly have nothing to appologise for . Everyone IMO is responsible for their own actions, except for those who are obviously mentally incapable ...which could be said to excuse millions of people ~;)

this may be why atheism has so much appeal: it presents itself is a fortress that guards you against people. In essence what Cam is saying holds truth in that it placates some emotional need. But it is just another division of people, complete with well-intentioned to backstabbing maggots.

I have never seen the appeal to atheism myself, a belief in absolutely nothing may hold a place of peace in the hearts of some ... I'd perfer to believe more along the buddist line of thought on recreation etc , yet as with other religious belief, there is just too much "our way is the only way" for my way of thinking.
As soon as religious belief gets itself written down & direct rules & order is put forward as being important, it destroys the whole ideal of god .

I feel you deserve an apology so I apologise on behalf of the minister. What he did was wrong and this is what happens when you try to make a religion into a corporation.

;;;
Again no apology necessary, & your comment about the 'corporation' & the rules imposed on the believers, most of it through manipulation by men, long dead & reinterpreted again & again by those who came later right up to today, is definately in my opinion a huge part of the problem of all religions.

Being raised in a mixed religious family (catholic & Protestant) gave me a view of both of these religions as a child depending on which side of the family I happened to be attending church with this week. IT started me questioning all of it at a very young age, & when in Sunday school I got no definitive answers to some probably distrubing questions of my teachers. Has helped shape my evolving cinical attitude towards all man made control mechanisms .... becasue anyone who believes for 1 second organised religion today isn't about control & power is a imbecill.

Have a nice day sheildurhope

Poor Christians, not being able to dictate other people lives according to their belief about god. why can't it still be like the good old renaissance days when someone said there an atheist you get to chop there balls of toss it in a fire and strangle them to death with there foreskin. I shed a tear for those poor Christians. ) =

At 1/16/13 12:36 AM, Ranger2 wrote: Honestly, I hear this idea being thrown around so much. There was even an article on CNN talking about how only idiots believe in religion and that the world would be so much better if nobody believed in G-d.

I always think the "the world would be so better..." theory is pretty dumb. Even if we were all atheists, we'd find a way to fight about that, or we'd find a different way to kill each other. Has religion led to a lot of blood shed? Fuck yeah. But the biggest thing that's led to blood shed is "hey, hey that guy over there is different then me, or has shit I want...rather then ask him to share, or getting to know him, I'll just fucking kill him and that'll solve my problem!". Religious wars are essentially just offshoots of this basic principle.

I find this insulting on two accounts: First off, how are people going around decrying the evils of religion and telling believers that they are mindless drones any different than evangelicals or WBC going around telling you you're going to hell?

It really isn't. That's the area that militant atheists need to realize makes them exactly like militant theists.

Both groups are essentially the same: people who believe that if you don't agree with them, you are lower than dirt.

Or just stupid or misguided at any rate. I'm not sure it's fair to say all members of both groups who hold the opinion that the other guy is totally fucking wrong sees it as "and that makes the other guy shit".

What I find really disturbing is that the majority of the anti-religion zealots almost exclusively attack Christians.

Well, there's more of them around, and they tend to make the most noise about their religion. That's one of the tenets of most Christian sects, to go preach and be in people's face to convert them. When that's a tenet of faith, don't be surprised if occasionally you'll run into people who will tell you to fuck off and not appreciate it.

Why single out Christians? Why not Jews too? We believe in the same thing, (albeit they wrote up a sequel) so why call out Jews on our supposed idiocy in believing in religion? If someone took a break from calling Christianity stupid and started shouting out how stupid Judaism is, people would shout "anti-Semitism!" and rightly so.

I know people that think all religion is stupid. Thinking however that Judaism is wrong or dumb is NOT in fact anti-Semitism. If we're going to do that, then we have to call the Catholic Church anti-semites (like Israel did) when the Pope said he didn't believe the Israelis have a contract with God because Jesus's coming represented a new covenant that nullified the old one. Is THAT anti-semitic to you? Because to me I don't think it is. He's not saying they shouldn't or can't live there, just that his religious belief is that they don't have the ability to claim a divine right to do so. Anti-semitism is actively hating/trying to harm Jews.

I can truly understand why some are mad at religion. It was technically religion that started the Crusades, 9/11, and crucifixion. There are are a lot of religious tribal conflicts which spark violence across the world.

Very true.

But those are religious extremists. Those who overanalyze scripture will inevitably take it too far. And while it isn't good to follow the rules of scripture and only scripture, religion is not inherently a bad thing. They all profess basic moralities like treating others well. It's perfectly fine and rational to believe in a G-d-all civilizations have had dominant beliefs in a divine creator(s) since ancient times. As long as you live in a balance between religion and modernity, there's nothing stupid about that.

Ok, first off, I see what you're trying to do...keep it more "theist" vs. being about your specific professed religion (Christianity). The way to do that is to make sure when you talk about the divine, and wish to do so in a non-specific way you NEVER capitalize the G, that makes it a proper name, and identifies it to only those specific religions that believe it to be a proper name. To be neutral you should use "god(s)". Much better catch all term.

Now let's go to your actual point: There IS an incompatibility between modernity and religion. Religion, no matter which one it is, has always been an INSTRUCTIVE catch all. It has been meant to teach morality, the origin of the world, the origin of it's species, when something is saying in big bold letters "this is how it is, the end, stop asking questions mother fuckers" it will inevitably clash, and unravel in the face of new information that successfully challenges it. Especially if that information proves true. In any other situation where this happens, nobody is allowed to move the goal posts and say "ok, so we/I was wrong about X...but Y is still ok because that hasn't been conclusively knocked down yet!". No, in any other instance, when you prove claims wrong, the claims have to stop being made. If you have a set of claims, and most of them are proven wrong, it's not crazy to then believe that the claims connected to them (For example, we've proven the Bible is wrong that man was created from dust, thus the Bible was wrong there...the flood, adam and eve, pretty much all of genesis, and much of the rest is wrong, isn't it logical then to figure if that much is demonstrably wrong then the rest is wrong too?) fall down and aren't true.

At 1/16/13 12:36 AM, Ranger2 wrote: I find this insulting on two accounts: First off, how are people going around decrying the evils of religion and telling believers that they are mindless drones any different than evangelicals or WBC going around telling you you're going to hell?

The former can be logically justified, depending on the religion in question, the latter cannot. For instance, when it comes to the evils of religion, just look at the latter part of your argument, it can easily be argued that the existence of such a place as hell is inherently evil. Obviously that doesn't apply to all religions, but that's just one example, many religions have some pretty immoral subject matter in their holy books. As far as the "mindless drones" part, that's obviously due to many religious people blindly following religious dogma and accepting supernatural claims as truth without question.

However, when it comes to some religious person telling someone they're going to be sent to hell, there's no way to justify that claim if you can't even prove the existence of such a place. There's certainly a difference. With that said, I don't actually agree with labeling all religion evil or all religious people as "mindless drones".

What I find really disturbing is that the majority of the anti-religion zealots almost exclusively attack Christians. Why single out Christians?

It really depends on the "anti-religion zealots" you're talking about. Usually when someone is going to ridicule a religion, it's going to be a religion they know a lot about and they're probably going to know the most about the prominent religion of the area they live in. Also, I've definitely seen religions other than Christianity get plenty of ridicule as well.

If someone took a break from calling Christianity stupid and started shouting out how stupid Judaism is, people would shout "anti-Semitism!" and rightly so.

Criticizing Judaism =/= anti-semitism.

It's perfectly fine and rational to believe in a G-d-

What's rational about belief in a god?

all civilizations have had dominant beliefs in a divine creator(s) since ancient times.

That doesn't make it rational or moral.