At 10/15/12 11:04 PM, Manly-Chicken wrote: This exactly. I LOVE Jazza's shit and don't mind him doing jams, but to see Tom only mentioning 2 games in his post while also giving him first place for the third time and the only prize makes me feel left out, like I should stop trying...

I guess I underestimated how much people like being in the post, it really is hard to pick runner-ups when a lot of the games were in the same league as each other and they are all featured on a page that is being publicized.

When I see people complain about Jazza's team being too pro too participate, it just gets me really mad on some gut level. I don't want the bar to be lowered, I want it to be raised. I want other game devs to come see our Game Jam results and be impressed by all the awesome games and want to get their friends together, make a spiffy logo and try to impress everyone with their own showing. And beginners who know they can't compete with the quality of the pros should just try and be that much crazier and more experimental.

The next jam could have three winners, or we could try no winners. And I'm fine with alternating between random teams and organized teams, both have their positive and negative points.

At 10/15/12 11:35 PM, TomFulp wrote: When I see people complain about Jazza's team being too pro too participate, it just gets me really mad on some gut level. I don't want the bar to be lowered, I want it to be raised. I want other game devs to come see our Game Jam results and be impressed by all the awesome games and want to get their friends together, make a spiffy logo and try to impress everyone with their own showing. And beginners who know they can't compete with the quality of the pros should just try and be that much crazier and more experimental.

The next jam could have three winners, or we could try no winners. And I'm fine with alternating between random teams and organized teams, both have their positive and negative points.

No, that's not at all what I mean! I enjoy it when Jazza joins in, in fact, if he didn't, we wouldn't see that much of him on the site that often. I understand that you want there to be challenge, and I wouldn't want it any other way, it's just that people I guess are a bit to oriented on recognition. All I'm suggesting is maybe add a few more submissions into a sort of finalists category, like you did with the art. But please, for the love of Pete, don't ban Jazza!

At 10/15/12 11:35 PM, TomFulp wrote: The next jam could have three winners, or we could try no winners. And I'm fine with alternating between random teams and organized teams, both have their positive and negative points.

Personally, I think that the best part of the jam experience is actually meeting completely new people and working with a new team that you have no or little prior experience with. I think that helps develop a lot more of your skills than working with people you know would be, as well as the fact that I think just the social networking of it brings the community that much closer.
That's why I really enjoyed when the teams were randomized, because you would work with people you would never have thought of in the first place and you can make new friends and grow much more than you would have if you were just with people you knew and were comfortable with. Being outside of that comfort zone is what allows you to develop your skills.

At 10/15/12 11:48 PM, big-jonny-13 wrote:

Personally, I think that the best part of the jam experience is actually meeting completely new people and working with a new team that you have no or little prior experience with. I think that helps develop a lot more of your skills than working with people you know would be, as well as the fact that I think just the social networking of it brings the community that much closer.
That's why I really enjoyed when the teams were randomized, because you would work with people you would never have thought of in the first place and you can make new friends and grow much more than you would have if you were just with people you knew and were comfortable with. Being outside of that comfort zone is what allows you to develop your skills.

Exactly! That would be totally cricket! Making the teams randomized so that people can meet each other, and that there won't be so many juggernaut-like groups.

Yo, I'm just glad to have participated. This is my first year with NewGrounds and I've felt more than blessed to have gotten to work with so many talented people, for both Game and Movie Jam. Its just exciting to have a final product that you can look back on and say, "Wow...we did this in 48 hours." Thats amazing! Everyone here who participated is very talented!

At 10/15/12 11:54 PM, EthanAlways wrote: Its just exciting to have a final product that you can look back on and say, "Wow...we did this in 48 hours." Thats amazing! Everyone here who participated is very talented!

I hear yah man! I'm still stunned about the movie jam a few weeks back!

At 10/15/12 11:48 PM, big-jonny-13 wrote: That's why I really enjoyed when the teams were randomized, because you would work with people you would never have thought of in the first place and you can make new friends and grow much more than you would have if you were just with people you knew and were comfortable with.

And because voice actors actually got to be on teams ha. ha.

At 10/15/12 11:59 PM, Aigis wrote:

And because voice actors actually got to be on teams ha. ha.

Thank goodness for the 7th game jam's kickball team system!

I think some good ideas to help people feel more fairly dealt with would be:

- Have 3 winners, with no #1 spot, $100 per team or something, they can divide in whatever way they chose. OR a winner and several honorable mention prizes, or even something as simple as all participants receive the "support NG" store purchase (equivalent of $25) and a first prize. Add more chance of fresher participants getting something, even if they don't come 1st.

- Review all entrants in an unbiased fashion. Austin breed did this for several of the game jams, and that way ALL participants can look forward to getting some professional level feedback for their hard work, because novice or expert alike, all participants have to work their little asses of to get a game out in that amount of time.

- Alternate random teams and pre-formed teams. I would be incredibly sad if all future game jams didn't allow me to work with the team I love working with, but on the other hand, I'd love to join with people I haven't met on occasion.

Just a few ideas, but there are better ways of talking about an issue than complaining, being constructive is what the cool kids do. Stay in school, don't do drugs.

At 10/16/12 12:12 AM, Jazza wrote:
- Have 3 winners, with no #1 spot, $100 per team or something, they can divide in whatever way they chose. OR a winner and several honorable mention prizes, or even something as simple as all participants receive the "support NG" store purchase (equivalent of $25) and a first prize. Add more chance of fresher participants getting something, even if they don't come 1st.

- Review all entrants in an unbiased fashion. Austin breed did this for several of the game jams, and that way ALL participants can look forward to getting some professional level feedback for their hard work, because novice or expert alike, all participants have to work their little asses of to get a game out in that amount of time.

Just a few ideas, but there are better ways of talking about an issue than complaining, being constructive is what the cool kids do. Stay in school, don't do drugs.

And that's why I respect you Jazza. You aren't stuck up about winning, and you understand how intimidating you are to make worthwhile suggestions.

Don't worry, I'm still doing school :3

At 10/16/12 12:21 AM, KaDoYuu wrote: Met some amazing people and learned quite a bit about my own strengths/weaknesses during the whole Movie Jam (which I'm also still reeling from!) I'd be happy to try this all another time.

Forsooth! That sounds like a plan. Mayhap we could collaborate on a video sometime!

Yeah, hell I wasn't trying to piss anyone off. Well, maybe Aegis, but no one else. I just thought everyone would randomly group is all, I've never done one of these before. So I was surprised to see such a classy production by a team that knew how each other worked. I might have tried to dig up some people I've worked with before had I know and tried to actually put up a fight. I guess I thought we were putting up a fight and then realized we didn't make it to the ring. :P

I certainly don't want to exclude anyone, that seems even worse. Then you'll ONLY have bad entries and it'll feel like a waste of time again. And I don't think offering more rewards is a good answer as that's just taking cash out of NG's pocket. The challenge and bragging rights really is good enough I think. :P

On CA they used to have these great art challenges, and the rewards on their were just trophies. Kinda like how NG does the daily rank trophies for game and movie rankings. Just my .02

This certainly isn't something worth getting mad about or letting one's self get upset, Jazza's Green Berets just knocked the wind out of everyone I think :P It turned into a Steven Seagal movie in here and we weren't ready.

At 10/16/12 12:40 AM, Hyptosis wrote: Yeah, hell I wasn't trying to piss anyone off. Well, maybe Aegis, but no one else. I just thought everyone would randomly group is all, I've never done one of these before. So I was surprised to see such a classy production by a team that knew how each other worked. I might have tried to dig up some people I've worked with before had I know and tried to actually put up a fight. I guess I thought we were putting up a fight and then realized we didn't make it to the ring. :P

Heheh, totally! During the 7th game jam, I think we spent a solid 5 hours just arguing over stupid things and generally not getting anything done X}

At 10/16/12 12:39 AM, KaDoYuu wrote:

At 10/16/12 12:27 AM, Saminat wrote:

At 10/16/12 12:21 AM, KaDoYuu wrote:

I'd be happy to try this all another time.

Forsooth! That sounds like a plan. Mayhap we could collaborate on a video sometime!

That'd be great, man. Just the thought gets me kind of hyped!

Shoot me up some time!

Any word on why this jam was 48 hours instead of 72? I feel like this just gives an experienced team like Jazza's more of an advantage, because 48 hours to make a game with people I'd never worked with before felt really, really short.

I have no problem with them participating though. The more great games the better.

Doing random teams again sometime in the future would be good though. It seemed like this jam was more chaotic and disorganized, and a lot of people had trouble finding teammates at all.

At 10/16/12 12:40 AM, Hyptosis wrote: Yeah, hell I wasn't trying to piss anyone off. Well, maybe Aegis, but no one else.

You rat bastard.

At 10/15/12 11:35 PM, TomFulp wrote: When I see people complain about Jazza's team being too pro too participate, it just gets me really mad on some gut level. I don't want the bar to be lowered, I want it to be raised.

Exactly. They win because they try and try hard. They're good not because they picked up Flash yesterday, but because however long they've been at it, they've been constantly improving hemselves. That's what rewards and prizes are for: recognition for work well done.

:And beginners who know they can't compete with the quality of the pros should just try and be that much crazier and more experimental.

...well, maybe. We can hope, anyway.

The next jam could have three winners, or we could try no winners.

First, 2nd, 3rd places would spread the achievements, and it's the standard. But if people are going to bitch and moan, then they could be taken away. There's no rule that says you have to give out fabulous prizes to every winner of every contest, and consolation prizes to the rest. Your generosity provides prizes. Thanks, BTW, Tom. I hope to win something someday.

But anyway, good work nets good rewards. If it was easy, everyone would do it.

If I was in it for the money, I wouldn't do a Game Jam :D

I could have spent my weekend milking Second Wind for all its worth, instead I decided to have some fun :P

Honestly, I think my team did an outstanding job, and though we aren't/never can be AAA development, it was a good run.

I think I'm/other people are upset simply because it's just a wee bit demoralizing, simply put, no... I don't have the time/resources to pump out games on the level of those who do this for a living. It's kind of like competing any fighting game against Capcom, you know? They'll always have the upper hand, you'll always be the Niche.

I think the bar's pretty high, and that's a good thin, but there's a point where the differences just aren't realistic, you know?

At 10/16/12 02:56 AM, Aigis wrote:

At 10/16/12 12:40 AM, Hyptosis wrote: Yeah, hell I wasn't trying to piss anyone off. Well, maybe Aegis, but no one else.

You rat bastard.

Hahahehe :P

At 10/15/12 07:31 PM, Manly-Chicken wrote:

Ismel has a full for sale game out there...

I wanted to see how I stacked up against the competition without the heavy bias of the NG voting community.
Plus he posted like 10 art pieces...
It's almost as if Tom's forgotten about games, especially the little guys...

I hope Tom at least front pages other games...

HEY hey hey hey hey- My game for sale fucking stinks, and nobody likes it, and nobody bought it. I'm still ON Newgrounds.
I can't be too bad to win anything for years, and then be disqualified from things as soon as I'm actually good at it.

Also Newgrounds is a flash game site above everything else, they get like ten times as many views as anything else so on that point you're bein straight-up cray-cray.

Also this is my first time entering a game jam, and it was really awesome to make something I'd never usually make.
I'd never get a game about getting lost in snow sponsored, or sold, or anything to make it actually worth making.
Also so far Tom was the only person who got what was going on in this game.

At 10/16/12 03:14 AM, squidly wrote: If I was in it for the money, I wouldn't do a Game Jam :D

I could have spent my weekend milking Second Wind for all its worth, instead I decided to have some fun :P

Honestly, I think my team did an outstanding job, and though we aren't/never can be AAA development, it was a good run.

I think I'm/other people are upset simply because it's just a wee bit demoralizing, simply put, no... I don't have the time/resources to pump out games on the level of those who do this for a living. It's kind of like competing any fighting game against Capcom, you know? They'll always have the upper hand, you'll always be the Niche.

I think the bar's pretty high, and that's a good thin, but there's a point where the differences just aren't realistic, you know?

Spot-on, right here.

I will say right off the bat: I enjoyed making music, I enjoyed working with the dev team, I enjoyed playing not only our game, but also others' games. No regrets about having taken part in this Game Jam. After 48 hours of competition (and 36 hours of tearing hair apart), there is reason to celebrate.

But then comes a time where we just don't know how we'd fare because people who are in professional/indie dev teams have an obvious upper hand against us. It's not a matter about "mastering Flash right", it's a matter of all factors considered. Some of us have our first Game Jams, some of us have been in it for a while now, and both groups will find it equally demoralising when they know there is a benchmark that they just cannot satisfy.

Makes a musician like me demotivated, you know?

At 10/16/12 06:06 AM, KaDoYuu wrote: I get a sad feeling there will be even less interest, next time around.. Will Time prove me wrong, people?

Case in point: give me one explanation as to why there were just soooooooo few artists this time round.
When I went on the GJ team thread for the first time, the vast majority were musicians. Programmers were a distant second. You had the rare artist that surfaced on the forums, but otherwise, no one even showed up to be picked for teams.

Why was this happening? If someone can give me a logical answer as to why...

At 10/16/12 03:14 AM, squidly wrote: If I was in it for the money, I wouldn't do a Game Jam :D

I could have spent my weekend milking Second Wind for all its worth, instead I decided to have some fun :P

Honestly, I think my team did an outstanding job, and though we aren't/never can be AAA development, it was a good run.

I think I'm/other people are upset simply because it's just a wee bit demoralizing, simply put, no... I don't have the time/resources to pump out games on the level of those who do this for a living. It's kind of like competing any fighting game against Capcom, you know? They'll always have the upper hand, you'll always be the Niche.

I think the bar's pretty high, and that's a good thin, but there's a point where the differences just aren't realistic, you know?

My game is Flash 8, Actionscript 2, it has 2 sound effects and it's made out of circles n squares. The snow is me scribbling white onto a transparent PNG, I'm not even using crazy Glaeil bitmap effects.

I actually looked up a game I used to be annoyed about last week, it's Tails Cosmic Rush. This game's stuck in my memory and I can't remember why, I think it really pissed me off back when I was 15. This is around the time I released Cannoncrotch and Crunchdown, which were 2 really old games I made, and it probably pissed me off that this 100% bullshit Sonic game was getting awesome reviews and like high votes n stuff. That used to annoy me, years ago, that Mario Falls of A Cliff would get a million views; so the fact that people who live on Newgrounds who've got good from years of just doing it are getting the same shit is fucking annoying.

If Glaeil was in this game jam, and fuckin Ed McMillen, Egoraptor, Jonny Utah, The Swain was here, fuckin HappyHarry and whoever else, SouljaBoy.newgrounds.com; this wouldn't be the worst game jam ever, it'd be the fuckin best.
It's not BAD that there was an already-formed game team entering, it's bad that there aren't MORE of those.

Also: third point on this list, you can all out-design Jazza. No offense to him, cos I watch his tutorials and I read his blog n stuff, but actually designing a game that's fun to play is his achiles heel, this game is fuckin slow and boring and tedious, it's one note repeated and stretched out, and so was his last game jam game. No offense, again, but I'm saying squares n circles can fuckin TROUNCE this- I spent 2 hours on my entry!

Fuckin point number 56: Game Jams aren't contests, they're just there to give people an excuse to make something quick n put it out, because making games takes too long. Power of 3 was explicitly about encouraging people to cross-communicate on Newgrounds, and spoilers: That's the point of all of these.
In future I hope MORE teams like this enter, and I hope more good-looking games come out of it. If I have to spend the whole 48 hours on the next one to be that guy then I'll do it

On the other hand, just to throw a bone to everyone: I did open this game, and the first thing I said was "oh man this is pretty unsportsman-like to bulldoze over everyone!" but- like that's funny as a joke, but the actual conversation of what's best for everyone, having solid teams entering the game jams is totally what is best for everyone.
I KNOW it feels like there's this division between "those guys have made it n I haven't" and I could write a whole essay about that cos I've been here since like 2004, but this post is long enough already so the short version is that that's actually a massively good thing and it's a huge catalyst for all the best things about Newgrounds.

Oh if I come off as super pissed off at everyone, sorry, don't worry about, I'm only MARGINALLY pissed off and it'll probably blow over.

At 10/16/12 07:14 AM, I-smel wrote: Oh if I come off as super pissed off at everyone, sorry, don't worry about, I'm only MARGINALLY pissed off and it'll probably blow over.

Nah, nah, don't worry about it.

I might sound a little more pissed off then I am, I'm not.

Truth is, I can't wait until next Game Jam. I don't care if there are 50 Jazza's out there.

I love a challenge, I didn't expect this to be such a challenge, now I know - come next game jam, it's gonna be a blast.

Game design just so happens to be my strong point, the coding... :/

Let's just accept the fact that what's done is done, I know we're annoyed - but this was my first game jam, I'll be realistic - I wasn't even expecting to FINISH it, the fact that I did is an accomplishment in my book.

At 10/16/12 07:14 AM, I-smel wrote: Oh if I come off as super pissed off at everyone, sorry, don't worry about, I'm only MARGINALLY pissed off and it'll probably blow over.

Oh no, by all means, you are making the most sense people out of all of us. I find it intriguing that you would like to have more large formidable teams than we already have, most people are just raging about how they want Jazza to be banned. I find it more difficult to find the time to commit to the jam in a single weekend, and uber people like jazza should have no influence as to wether people want to join or not. I say, let's welcome the other top dogs of the portal. Maybe if they mixed themselves into teams, then people would stop bitching about difficulty and start having fun like they should be having in the first place.

Yea this is my first game jam, I never entered those Tigsource ones.

Look let's just all stick together, and focus our hate toward other game sites like adults. WHO WON YOUR GAM JAM, ARMORGAMES??? OH- OH.. NOBODY?
WHAT'S YOUR ART JAM THEME THIS TIME, KONGREGATE?IS IT GAMESTOP PRE-ORDERS??? WILL I WIN SOME KREDS, YOU ASSHOLES??

At 10/16/12 07:55 AM, I-smel wrote:
Look let's just all stick together, and focus our hate toward other game sites like adults. WHO WON YOUR GAM JAM, ARMORGAMES??? OH- OH.. NOBODY?
WHAT'S YOUR ART JAM THEME THIS TIME, KONGREGATE?IS IT GAMESTOP PRE-ORDERS??? WILL I WIN SOME KREDS, YOU ASSHOLES??

Quite quite. Superb use of asshole, it tickled my funnybone!

Thanks I always aim for my asshole to be as ticklish as possible.