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Rules of war.

3,274 Views | 54 Replies

Rules of war. Feb 13, 2012


Ethics or guidelines shouldn't even exist for it in the first place, like not being able to fake surrender.

War isn't supposed to be nice or made gentlemanly though "rules," "do's and don'ts," or other guidelines.

It's an attempt to civilize an inherently uncivilized course of events. Like allowing someone to smother people with a pillow so long as it's in pillow case, but if it's not you're in for a war trial. If killing civilians or POWs brings victory closer, so be it. It's very unfortunate, but that's how it is, and how it should be.

The Geneva Conventions? Fuck that shit, either have total war or no war at all. Maybe we'd be a lot less inclined to wage it if it weren't so pussified today.

Thoughts?

Response to Rules of war. Feb 13, 2012


Rules of War are like the Rules of the Internet.

They're there and everyone knows them, but they can be broken at will.

Response to Rules of war. Feb 13, 2012


I think of those rules as unwritten rules which you can break, but will lower your credibility as a country immensly. If you fake surrendering, no-one will ever take you seriously when you surrender, thus murdering many unneccessary (probably spelt that wrong) people. I think other countries will stop trading and buying stuff too if you break rules like that.


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Response to Rules of war. Feb 13, 2012


At 4 minutes ago, MultiCanimefan wrote: Ethics or guidelines shouldn't even exist for it in the first place, like not being able to fake surrender.

Only a fucking idiot would think that there is a point to rules in war.
This is why America sucks now.


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Response to Rules of war. Feb 13, 2012


do you want total war?
to throw out christ
and bring back thor


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Response to Rules of war. Feb 13, 2012


I disagree with that assessment, winning hearts and minds of the population is just as important as winning battles, if a country at war that believes that their side is just and in the right then they have to be seen by noncombatants/the civilian population as acting ethically and morally. If they are seen as killing indiscriminately, torturing, using poisonous gases or other outlawed warfare practices they will not be seen by the population as fighting for them they will be seen as just as bad or worse than the enemy combatants.


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Response to Rules of war. Feb 13, 2012


Those rules are nice in movies. Otherwise, they shouldn't/don't count.

Response to Rules of war. Feb 13, 2012


Yesterday I saw that movie of that guy putting all the body parts of his child he can find into a plastic bag and takes it home.
Well if that's the shit with the rules I dont even want to know what war is like without it ;)
Instead I think we should add a rule:
* during war all members of both parties need to see the gore and carnage they inflict on each other each day uncensored for at least 5 minutes after waking up and before going to bed.

Response to Rules of war. Feb 13, 2012


At 33 minutes ago, BlackmarketKraig wrote: I disagree with that assessment, winning hearts and minds of the population is just as important as winning battles,

This is very true, my assessment didn't factor this in because it focuses on the ends justifying the means.

if a country at war that believes that their side is just and in the right then they have to be seen by noncombatants/the civilian population as acting ethically and morally.

But there is no such thing as an ethical or moral war; the very definition of war is the antithesis to ethics and morality. You can treat captives to a 5-star hotel, that doesn't mean you didn't just wipe out the majority of them in the most brutal of fashion.

If they are seen as killing indiscriminately, torturing, using poisonous gases or other outlawed warfare practices they will not be seen by the population as fighting for them they will be seen as just as bad or worse than the enemy combatants.

Because they're not fighting for the population. But no, we have to beat around the bush and sugercoat shit.

Response to Rules of war. Feb 13, 2012


To say you are against rules of war is to say you are for the unprovoked killing of civilians by soldiers of nations foreign to those citizens. Rules are in place for a reason. Just because war is an inevitable part of society, leaving it to destroy society is just irresponsible. Many times, organized killing of civilians in order to achieve victory does not justify itself as a means to an end - strategically, tactically, or ethically.

For example, when Russia went to Afghanistan it slaughtered thousands of Afghans. While on paper this looks good to the war office, in reality that only fueled anti-Soviet sentiment in Afghanistan which produced a strong resistance that ultimately removed Russia from Afghanistan.

The same happened in Vietnam to a lesser extent. While the US did not try to kill civilians, some 2 million innocent Vietnamese died, albeit not just the US's fault. The result was heavy anti-war sentiment and the eventual loss of the Vietnam War, despite the tactical success and superiority the US enjoyed in the war.

The same issues hamper our efforts today in the Middle East. For every civilian we kill, we, more than likely, produce at least one enemy extremist.

Then, your theory that making war worse would make many think twice about starting a war is wrong. Let's use another historical example - the cold war. In theory, if we build enough nuclear weapons, everybody would step down in fear of being crushed by our massive nuclear arsenal. However, what actually happened was that many nations, exclusively Russia, built up their own arsenals to combat ours, and before we knew it the price of war was the extinction of humanity. The repercussions of the cold war still threaten us today. The threat of MAD still remains today.

I really don't think you've thought about this enough to come to such a bold conclusion as "total war" or "no war."


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Response to Rules of war. Feb 13, 2012


The samurai, and civil wars got shit done with a bit of honor in the past. But in todays society that's a luxury no soldier can afford, like it or not. I don't blame soldiers of today for lacking a sense of honor for their enemy and most of you wouldn't either if you were on the frontlines with bullets damn near grazing your ass, killing your friends in combat. Your morale is your units wil to fightl, them drummer boy days are over.


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Response to Rules of war. Feb 13, 2012


At 1 minute ago, bgraybr wrote:
At 31 minutes ago, II2none wrote:
As for the OP, what's the point in making warfare worse? Even with rules horrible acts are still perpetrated.

Exactly, so why have them?

You'd say that the ends justify the means until your county is the one going up in flames.

Actually I'd still say that it is the way to go.

Our communication and ties to the rest of the world have gotten strong enough to where a peaceful world (or at least one more peaceful than ours now) is in site.

That's fantastic, but not what I'm talking about.

Response to Rules of war. Feb 13, 2012


I agree. Whatever happened to "All's fair in love and war"? If I wanna fight dirty, then I should be able to fight dirty. There isn't a damn thing that's noble about war in the first place.


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Response to Rules of war. Feb 13, 2012


At 1 minute ago, bgraybr wrote:
I don't know what it is with the modern whitewashing of ancient warfare.

Bullshit, I'm not saying they were allowing each other to live to fight another day or saying "please" and "thank you" as they clash swords. I'm just saying honor such as a "warriors greeting/regards" was a significance back in the ol days. Particularly to those officers with noteworthy combat skill.

And not killing the drummer boy during the days 1800's is (was) considered a sign of honor.


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Response to Rules of war. Feb 13, 2012


At 34 seconds ago, bgraybr wrote:
At A few seconds ago, MultiCanimefan wrote:
At 1 minute ago, bgraybr wrote:
At 31 minutes ago, II2none wrote:
My point was that it would be even worse without them.

Doesn't get much worse without them, but ok I understand where you're coming from at least.

My point is that these rules are weaning the world towards peace.

I'd argue there are more significant factors regarding world peace, but I'll give you this.

Why on earth would you want to help perpetuate warfare?

But I don't want to do that.

Response to Rules of war. Feb 13, 2012


At 18 seconds ago, bgraybr wrote:

I'm just saying that the goal of warfare was still the same. Warriors regards or not, they were still extremely brutal.

Hey, no arguments here.


They were practically noncombatants. Would you shoot an unarmed medical officer in the face?

That's exactly my point. Traditions like that don't apply in todays world. Also Medical officers can't really be compared to drummer boys since they'renot suppose to be on the battlefield.


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Response to Rules of war. Feb 13, 2012


If they didn't exist, then hospitals would be destroyed without any concern and entire countries could be nuked without much care either.

They are a way of making a war more "fair", if you can say that word in a war.

Response to Rules of war. Feb 13, 2012


At 2 minutes ago, Confucianism wrote: I'm surprised no body has gone onto talking about ancient Japans warfare. Namely talking about the Samurai. They had guidelines on warfare.

The hell? I just did. http://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/1293670


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Response to Rules of war. Feb 13, 2012


There has got to be rules in war.
Otherwise it wouldn't be the game it is.


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Response to Rules of war. Feb 13, 2012


At 3 hours ago, Schizo-Sephy wrote:
At 4 minutes ago, MultiCanimefan wrote: Ethics or guidelines shouldn't even exist for it in the first place, like not being able to fake surrender.
Only a fucking idiot would think that there is a point to rules in war.
This is why America sucks now.

But there is a point to the rules. When a country inevitably breaks the rules, the World Police can say "AW HELL NAW DEY BROK DA RULEZ SHITS REEL NAO!!!!" and involve themselves in the conflict without anyone asking questions.

Response to Rules of war. Feb 13, 2012


I suppose we can attempt to tame war, but really, we can't really stop our enemies from breaking the rules, because war itself implies exactly that. We can try to make our battlefields slightly more honorable-- But hey, if we had a rule that said "Don't crash into the Twin Towers," do you think that would stop terrorists from doing exactly that? We can try to control it but it's impossible until Earth sees better days.

Response to Rules of war. Feb 13, 2012


At 21 minutes ago, bgraybr wrote:
At 3 minutes ago, MultiCanimefan wrote: But I don't want to do that.
I'm being terrible at explaining this. I guess what I'm driving at is that these rules are essentially a good thing from a humanitarian standpoint, and "civilizing" warfare is a step towards eventually eliminating it, or at least getting it to a point where less people are needlessly harmed by it.

I understand what you're saying, but for me, it's silly to try and make war something it isn't. Just another attempt to sugarcoat and toss a blanket over reality. A "humanitarian" and "civil" war, patronizing nonsense.

The essence of war is the annihilation and complete disregard for life, the destruction of wills and minds, and dehumanizing innocents. How you can ever make something so vile and abhorrent like that obey rules, ethics, and codes of conduct in the hopes of creating peace from it is something I'll never understand.

I'm not trying to be emo or edgy or anything, I'm just being objective and realistic. It's how I see conflict; at it's core, by it's very nature it cannot and will not be civilized. Just as a tornado cannot be quelled into affecting just certain areas, war must be total, an undiscriminating twister that doesn't lie to itself and try to be something it isn't.

I can't fathom why you'd like that to change, you said that "maybe less people would go to war if it was more brutal", but I don't see the correlation. Before the Geneva Convention and all that jazz people still waged wars.

Yeah that wasn't a great point on my part.

At 12 minutes ago, II2none wrote:
They were practically noncombatants. Would you shoot an unarmed medical officer in the face?

Not until he gets in the way.

Response to Rules of war. Feb 13, 2012


Would you have us just shell the ever living fuck out of towns and villages that we "suspect" are harbouring hostile guerillas, or fight like the taliban and strap bombs on disabled people and civilians just to kill our enemies. Basically we have rules to keep our soldiers in check and gives them a moral guideline, it keeps soldiers from committing atrocities like say Japanese soldiers in WW2 and gives us the moral high ground which is a very important thing when fighting a war.


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Response to Rules of war. Feb 13, 2012


At 11 minutes ago, MultiCanimefan wrote:
At 12 minutes ago, II2none wrote:
They were practically noncombatants. Would you shoot an unarmed medical officer in the face?
Not until he gets in the way.

You have to quote better dude, I didn't type this.


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Response to Rules of war. Feb 13, 2012


Please, BBS user "Multi Anime Fan", tell me all about your experiences in war. Surely, you know all about it given how everyone else is so "pussified". Please.

The Geneva Conventions? Fuck that shit, either have total war or no war at all.

I would really love to see you writhe in pain as an invasive gas causes scarring to your lungs, giving you a slow death while your friends watch helplessly.

Wait, no I don't 'cause I'm not a weird little sociopath and don't make stupid fucking topics like this one

If killing civilians or POWs brings victory closer, so be it. It's very unfortunate, but that's how it is, and how it should be.

Of all the shit in your post this is the stupidest. What? Idiot.

Response to Rules of war. Feb 13, 2012


At 4 hours ago, MultiCanimefan wrote:

It's an attempt to civilize an inherently uncivilized course of events. Like allowing someone to smother people with a pillow so long as it's in pillow case, but if it's not you're in for a war trial. If killing civilians or POWs brings victory closer, so be it. It's very unfortunate, but that's how it is, and how it should be.

Also I don't agree with this statement, a country should be trying to avoid civilian casualties at all cost unless they're objective is to satisfy there hatred of another country, THEN so be it. Also define "if a civilian gets in the way." I don't see how killing civilians would be productive if that isn't part of an army's mission.


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Response to Rules of war. Feb 13, 2012


I didn't say everyone else was pussified, I said some try to pretend to make war what it isn't.

I'm a sociopath because I see war for what it really is? If anyone is sociopathic, it's those who try to dress it up nice and delude themselves in order to justify it. Everyone here seems to be under the impression that I like and support war which is far from the truth.

I'm not talking about actively seeking out to kill innocent people, I'd never support that. I'm saying collateral is unavoidable and sometimes necessary to achieve victory. For example, if factories that are supplying the enemy happen to be in a civilian city, well what the fuck are you supposed to do?

Response to Rules of war. Feb 13, 2012


"All's fair in love and war."

Although some acts are more deplorable then others, in my opinion. Like targeting innocent civilians.

Response to Rules of war. Feb 13, 2012


At 21 minutes ago, MultiCanimefan wrote: it's those who try to dress it up nice and delude themselves in order to justify it

who?

I'm not talking about actively seeking out to kill innocent people, I'd never support that. I'm saying collateral is unavoidable and sometimes necessary to achieve victory. For example, if factories that are supplying the enemy happen to be in a civilian city, well what the fuck are you supposed to do?

That is actually not at all what you said in your OP. Your entire argument is based on the Geneva Convention "pussifying" everyone or something.

Not only is the treaty you refer to it is from a drastically different period, but there is nothing in it that says "you cant hurt infrastructure". More like "you can't ethnically cleanse your neighbor". The point was to keep superpowers in check. Clearly it wasn't enough as the United States itself stocks several hundred tons of biological and chemical materiel.

Response to Rules of war. Feb 13, 2012


The reasoning for "rules" of war came out of WW1, where even war hardened soldiers were quaking with fear almost every night after the war, whether it was the clattering of machine guns and early tanks, or the infamous use of chemical warfare that was rampant. They thought that laying down some ground rules {Geneva Convention} would curtail some of the horrors of war in the future, which of course Hitler and Tojo made a mockery of before and during WW2. {Little did they know at the time, payback was coming, and in hindsight, they had it coming.}

Now most modern developed countries follow the sets of guidelines for war, not because they want to appear humble and mericiful in front of the world, but mostly to appease fellow countries and not appear to be savages, which would ruin business between other countries. Of course, rogue nations like North Korea, Iraq, Sierra Leone and possibly Iran have violated these rules on many occasions, and often times, very little in terms of action has been done other than wagging the finger at them, which only encourages them more. Therein lies the problem, the so called rules of war are not recognized by everyone, nor can it be enforced with much consequence, unless you threaten America's interests of course.

The "rules" of war, Geneva Convention and so on are simply nothing more than hopeful rhetoric and window dressing, because not every nation follows those rules, and sometimes, America has played a small part into that when dealing with countries, and the Soviets were just as bad, if not worse. War is a game that only had one rule throughout history, and that is to win/survive, because history has always been written by the victors.


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