At 4/18/08 12:51 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:
At 4/18/08 04:01 AM, Drakim wrote:
That's not the typical American Christian upbringing :/
Most Americans don't believe in evolution. Source
Most Americans believes "homosexual activity or sex" is harmful. source
I'm sure I could post a long list of such things, but you get my point.
For every firebreathing preacher you find on youtube, you'll find 100 altruistic and passionate christians in the real world.
But when Christians are polled, they tend to show opinions that are less than tolerant. When somebody says that "anybody who isn't like us is going to burn in hell when they die" (which I'm positive most Christians believe, as it is basic Christian doctrine), then how can you call them tolerant? By accepting Jesus, you are a Christian. If you don't accept Jesus, you will burn in hell. That means, if you aren't a Christian, you burn in hell. Are we operating on different definitions of the word here?
From what I see, Christians wants a loving and caring image, because that's how Jesus was, but the reality has never ever reflected it. For every Christian that thinks it's okay to be different, to not be a Christian, you'll find 100 Christians who wants to tell you about Jesus (to make you a Christian too). Tolerance is about accepting people like they are, not trying to shape them in your image.
But, for all non-Christians, Biblical characters are just the work of fiction. Jesus wansn't the son of God, Moses didn't talk to a burning bush, etc.
And you're wrong in saying that non-christians view biblical characters as fiction.
I think you must have mistyped, or misread what I said. I'll repeat it.
Non-Christians do not believe in Biblical characters are they are presented.
Non-religious folk do that, but they wouldn't believe in nuclear power unless they could touch a core rod.
That's just ignorant to say. It's like me saying you don't believe in Zeus because you haven't been struck my lighting yet.
You can, and should. You'd be doing a great service to humanity. Many christian groups create just such fictional works, all in the name of grace and goodwill.
I disagree. I find the quest for truth a lot more noble than the quest for grace and goodwill. Hitler was trying to do the "right thing" too you know. The "right thing" to do is subjective depending on who you ask. Truth is not. Even though people disagree on what is true, there can only be one truth, by definition.
Being christian is something you need to be true to yourself with, if you can't find christly love, you probably aren't trying hard enough.
So, I'm not a Christian simply because I'm lazy and haven't tried enough? If I'd just search really hard for the truth, I will end up a Christian?
To see that before God's own child was sacrificed on the cross, he was a wrathful and jealous God.
I'm liking Christianity less and less really. Death and sacrifices, wrath and rightful jealousy is not things that should be shown to the kid for the "good guys". I'd rather teach my children moral stories which doesn't involve somebody having to die to set things straight, or somebody killing and raping in the name of good.
True. I take a lot more issues with things like circumcision.
More sanitary (science yay).
Yeah, but it's still a permanent change. We don't use the ear flip (the lower part of your outer ear) for anything. But like any body part, it can get infected. Should we cut it off?
Circumcision is a bit too permanent for my tastes to force on a child. It's no different form giving the child a tattoo that cannot be removed.
But lastly, it's bullshit. When a jewish family gets a child circumcised, it's not because it's more sanitarian. That's a positive side effect, not the reason.
However, I know some religions, once you are in, you aren't allowed to get out. Even after you leave the religious community, they still keep you on their list of members (which does in fact break the human rights).
If you know of these religions, why don't you report them? That's fucking sick if you aren't allowed out. Who are they?
Mormons do this, and Catholics used to do it.
Heck, according to the Quran, Muslims must kill anybody who deconverts.
I don't know what your point is. You think the majority of christians believe everyone's gunna burn in hell.
Yes, I do. I've really yet to see anything to tell me otherwise, be it polls or people. There are a lot of Christians who belive Jesus saved everybody, but I'm afraid not the majority of Christians.
You aren't going to change your opinion of that, even if I told you I've never honestly encountered such a thing that you hold as true.
Show me some evidence, like a poll, that shows otherwise, and I'll change my mind this minute.
Should someone be able to tell you what you can and can't teach your kids?
Yes, because some things are considered child abuse to teach your kids. I would not accept that a parent taught their child that they are worthless scum who doesn't deserve to live. Such a parent is unfit to raise a child, no different from a parent that hits his/her child.
Ofcourse not, but there is more to this world than TV and Bibles.
Yes, indeed. But televisions are more prolific than even the bible. If not X, then Y.
If not X, then Z, A, B or whatever at the moment. There is no natural follow-up so that if you miss the Bible, you go to the TV.
I agree with you for the most part here. I do believe force is necessary in extreme situations however. I was raised with a similar mindset as what you've just described, but as I've gotten older I'm thankful for about half the times I was 'forced' into something. Like piano practice or singing for old people on holidays.
You just implied it's not rare for Christians to teach their kids to hate others... wow. Do you have such a narrow view of everything else in the world as well? If you do, I won't waste any more of my time tossing pebbles down the well.
Christians are not known to be tolerant. You might disagree, but I think this is pretty self evident. Imagine that you find out that you are gay, at the age of 14. This can be quite hard, as a lot of children at school might attack you for it. You might lose some friends if it goes public. Heck, even some grownups might treat you disrespectfully for it, despite you being a child. All this over something you can't help anymore than your skin color.
Do you think having Christian parents will help such a situation or worsen it? Be completely honest. Will the child have a harder or easier time with being gay if the parents are Christian, compared to say, atheist?
And say then, me, who is an atheist, how would your church unite me? The only way that I can imagine is for them to say "you just have to stop being an atheist".
You need to choose to be saved. If you want a loving community you could share Christ's love in, my church is for you. We meet a few times a month and enj
So, I just have to change what I am to be united with everybody. This still sounds like the Borg. D:
How can religion be a uniter when it's basic premisis demands that everybody become like them?
If you don't believe the premise, how does that effect you? You have said religion is unfair. How is it any more unfair than being born into an industrialized nation? At least with church, you aren't forced to tithe or threatened with jail time
For example, I'm right now making a group called "The group for goodness". The only premiss for joining this group is that you want to promote goodness. We don't force you to belive in any God, force to you give up any food, have any selected sexuality, or anything like that.
Can Christianity offer the same thing? To join you in promoting goodness with your group, I have to start believing in God, believe that Jesus was his son, believe he died for my sins, etc. I can't see how anybody could argue that religion unites when it demands this.