At 4/20/08 01:05 AM, poxpower wrote: Kids don't make well-informed decisions. They're kids, they're learning.
You can make them believe anything and I think that starting them out with "religions are stupid and false, have fun" is great.

You are instilling them with the virtues that fit your own viewpoint, which runs counter to the atheist ideal that YOU DECIDE WHAT YOU BELIEVE FOR YOURSELF. You are doing the same thing you despise Christians for doing, the only difference is you're to blinded by your bigoted arrogance to realize it.

In short, you don't think your shit stinks.

haha a personal truth.

Did I stutter?

That's just a made-up concept that means the same thing: you think their religion is stupid and wrong and that everyone should be YOUR religion. Admit it, you'd love nothing more than to see every last person on earth converted to your branch of whatever faith you follow.

I hate to disappoint you, pox, but I am actually just content to allow others to practice their own belief systems unhindered. Simply being a Christian doesn't put me in the same class of practitioners as the Jerry Falwell and Pat Buchanan crowd, and if you honestly thought I was in that crowd to begin with, then it goes to show everyone in this forum how little you actually know about me personally.

At 4/20/08 08:49 AM, morefngdbs wrote: they have this god who is completely out to lunch with the whole hell fire & all eternity suffering B.S.
I don't believe that for a second.

That's because Hell as it is described by most evangelical Christians doesn't actually exist, I've mentioned this before but people tend to side-step that...

I don't believe god cares if we go to a certain building every week for the weekly fashion show, & look at me I'm in church, to be seen.... even though I'm a S.O.B. to everyone through the rest of the week.
None of that works for me.

Makes sense to me.

At 4/20/08 09:49 PM, Proteas wrote:

You are instilling them with the virtues that fit your own viewpoint

No, "science" is not a viewpoint or a belief system. Religion is stupid and false, it's a scientific fact.
If I teach kids about evolution, you won't say I'm teaching them the "opinion" that evolution is true or false.
100% of every fact every gathered points to religions being scams. I'm not going to hide this from my kids just to give religious people a "fair chance" which they don't deserve in the first place just as we don't give the opposing viewpoints of racists, sexists, sadists etc. and let kids decide.

I hate to disappoint you, pox, but I am actually just content to allow others to practice their own belief systems unhindered.

You didn't answer the question ( as religious people tend to do ).

Do you wish, yes or no, that everyone had your religion?

At 4/20/08 10:05 PM, poxpower wrote: No, "science" is not a viewpoint or a belief system.

Nowhere in this topic have you said a word about teaching them science, just how to ridicule Christians and their beliefs, which is intolerant bigotry and makes you no better than the Fundamentalist Christians you so despise.

100% of every fact every gathered points to religions being scams.

And yet, Science can neither prove or disprove the existence of God either.

Or do I have to pull up that topic we had about Einstein being an atheist that twerpy n00b wrote a few weeks back to remind you of that fact?

You didn't answer the question ( as religious people tend to do ).

Do you wish, yes or no, that everyone had your religion?

So long as your viewpoints do me no personal harm, then the answer is an emphatic NO, I DON'T FUCKING CARE EITHER WAY WHAT YOU BELIEVE, JUST DON'T BE A HYPOCRITE ABOUT YOUR BELIEFS WHEN YOU GO TO CRITICIZE OTHERS ABOUT THEIR OWN.

Did you really have to ask? Were just THAT unable to discern that from my previous posts?

At 4/20/08 10:17 PM, Proteas wrote:

Nowhere in this topic have you said a word about teaching them science, just how to ridicule Christians and their beliefs,

Yes, that's what science is. Religion is anti-science. I'd rather teach them cryptozoology than a man named Jesus walked on water and cloned bread and fish.
It's not bigoted to ridicule religion, religion is ridicule. Religion isn't a viewpoint, it's just pretend stories. It's exactly like if you believed Harry Potter was real.
So what, I should respect you now because you think Harry Potter is real and I'm mean and closed-minded if I tell you it's fictional? Would you go on a long tirade about how Harry Potter made people's lives more interesting and better and more magical and how he teaches kids to believe in themselves?

Hey then maybe we can have a huge debate where we count how many good people believe in Harry Potter and how many bad people believe in Harry Potter as if that had any bearing on the fact that it's just fiction.

And yet, Science can neither prove or disprove the existence of God either.

It doesn't really have anything to do with religion.
If you think there's a 50/50 chance that any religion is right well... ...damn

So long as your viewpoints do me no personal harm, then the answer is an emphatic NO, I DON'T FUCKING CARE EITHER WAY WHAT YOU BELIEVE, JUST DON'T BE A HYPOCRITE ABOUT YOUR BELIEFS WHEN YOU GO TO CRITICIZE OTHERS ABOUT THEIR OWN.

Nonono, that's not an answer to it.
Do you wish, if it was possible, that everyone on earth converted to your set of beliefs?
Yes or no.
I'm not asking if you care, I'm asking if you wish it was so.

And if you don't wish for this, then are you stupid? You're basically saying you hold a viewpoint you think no one in particular should really have and you don't care either way. Would sound like you're a pretty damn bad Christian to skip on the chance to save every soul on earth.

At 4/20/08 04:04 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:

At 4/20/08 06:34 AM, Drakim wrote:

I don't think there's two christians on this earth who agree with each other about what being a true christian is, which is a tribute to their stupidity.

Yeah, that sure is a testament to idiocy. Everybody knows Christians need to be killed for not having homogenous beliefs on what it is to be part of a multi-million member organization.

I didn't say that. You messed up the quotes.

I would bet you 1000 dollars that if you made people take an IQ test, you'd find followers trailing behind the atheists.
meh

Liberals don't bet money, they lose every time.

Again, not me. And I don't see how somebody being of another political party is relevant. (but I did prove him right ;)

At 4/21/08 12:55 AM, LazyDrunk wrote: Hey pox, if you could give everyone on earth good advice, would you?

Yes or no.

If you could give everyone on earth advice, but you can't know for sure if it's good or bad, would you?

Yes or no

At 4/21/08 02:02 AM, LazyDrunk wrote:

At 4/21/08 01:51 AM, Drakim wrote: I didn't say that. You messed up the quotes.

Then don't respond to it. Pox and I know the score.

I wanted to make things straight for everybody else, dummy. Being missquoted has been troublesome in the past.

At 4/21/08 01:53 AM, Drakim wrote:

At 4/21/08 12:55 AM, LazyDrunk wrote: Hey pox, if you could give everyone on earth good advice, would you?

Yes or no.

If you could give everyone on earth advice, but you can't know for sure if it's good or bad, would you?

Yes or no

Are you retarded?

You get to ask a question but not me? D':

At 4/21/08 02:14 AM, LazyDrunk wrote:

At 4/21/08 02:07 AM, Drakim wrote:

At 4/21/08 02:02 AM, LazyDrunk wrote:

At 4/21/08 01:51 AM, Drakim wrote: I didn't say that. You messed up the quotes.

Then don't respond to it. Pox and I know the score.

I wanted to make things straight for everybody else, dummy. Being missquoted has been troublesome in the past.

Nobody reads your posts.

D:

I'll have to get back and those damn bastards who nominated me for best poster. They lied to me!

You get to ask a question but not me? D':

I was making a point.

You're being a cocksmooch.

I simply can't respond to such brilliantly solid laid arguments.

At 4/21/08 12:55 AM, LazyDrunk wrote:

Do you wish, if it was possible, that everyone on earth converted to your set of beliefs?

Yes.

What the hell is wrong with you.

At 4/21/08 03:38 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote:

At 4/21/08 12:55 AM, LazyDrunk wrote:

Do you wish, if it was possible, that everyone on earth converted to your set of beliefs?

Yes.

What the hell is wrong with you.

Everyone wants people to agree with them. There's nothing surprising about that.

At 4/21/08 04:06 AM, dySWN wrote: Everyone wants people to agree with them. There's nothing surprising about that.

I wouldn't. Because then I'd have nobody to debate with D:

At 4/21/08 04:08 AM, Drakim wrote:

At 4/21/08 04:06 AM, dySWN wrote: Everyone wants people to agree with them. There's nothing surprising about that.

I wouldn't. Because then I'd have nobody to debate with D:

Yeah, that would be a shame, too. Kinda why I think the world is better off with conflicting beliefs - it would be really, really boring without them.

At 4/20/08 03:58 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:

At 4/20/08 05:23 AM, Ravariel wrote:

At 4/20/08 12:53 AM, LazyDrunk wrote: Atheism is the disbelief in religious knowledge, including life after death.

Hi, my name is Buddhism. How r u?

Great point.

Except it's not :(

Atheistic religion that believes in life after death? Yeah... I think it is.

But please, do let us know how you define these words you say we all don't understand. Because they certainly seem to differ from yon dictionary.

Context, rav, context. Was it not clear?

Apparently not... because many people construed it my way... and you're about the only one who seems to see this underlying "context".

Scientifically there isn't any life after death. It takes faith to believe in something like that. Atheists don't personally believe in faith, remember?

No... Atheists don't believe in (a) god. There's a difference.

Ego. You're mimicking drakim's kindergarten assertion that non-christians can't recieve the promise of God's kingdom. That's just wrong on the christian level everyone here argues from.

So one can get into the kingdom of heaven through good works alone?

Is that what you read?

That certainly seems to be what you implied.

He's using drakim's atheism as the motivation for calling him an ignoramus.

Nice little exchange of information we got going on, huh.

Funny... sounded a lot to me like he said atheism itself is ignorant... and by extension, so was Drak. But now that we see where each other stands on the issue, let's drop it, because going around in circles on a minor interpretation of someone who just wants to stir shit is counter-productive.

At 4/20/08 03:53 PM, StephanosGnomon wrote: Sadly Christianity has been molded more by Paul's doctrine than that of Jesus.

This sounds like a far too intelligent discussion for this topic. (hence probably the lack of response to it)... This looks like a job for Heathenry to me...

At 4/21/08 04:55 AM, Ravariel wrote:

At 4/20/08 03:53 PM, StephanosGnomon wrote: Sadly Christianity has been molded more by Paul's doctrine than that of Jesus.

This sounds like a far too intelligent discussion for this topic. (hence probably the lack of response to it)... This looks like a job for Heathenry to me...

Hah, you are too right. This Paul guy is one fishy..uhm, guy?

At 4/21/08 04:46 AM, Ravariel wrote: and by extension, so was Drak.

I've been demoted to Drak. DX

At 4/21/08 12:55 AM, LazyDrunk wrote:

then you think everyone is stupid.

No.

Ok, not "stupid" but misguided.
Like, you clearly think every other religion is inferior to yours for whatever reason, otherwise you wouldn't have picked yours over theirs.

So yeah that's what I mean when I say religious people are mega-arrogant. They all keep saying "well there's no proof either way" yet they decide that they're right and the others are wrong by choosing when they don't have enough information to ( and admit it ).
Like, seriously think about it, some religious peasant with an IQ of 80 and no high school is telling Stephen Hawking and Einstein and Dawkins "hey guys like yore smart n' all but yew should be christians ya know cuz that's the trooth" .

Hey pox, if you could give everyone on earth good advice, would you?

Yes or no.

Not to assholes. I don't want to give good financial advice to people who shit on the earth.

But if you want it flipped into "do I think everyone should be atheist?" then YES, Hell yeah. And religion isn't "good advice" by any stretch of the imagination.

At 4/21/08 04:55 AM, Ravariel wrote:

At 4/20/08 03:53 PM, StephanosGnomon wrote: Sadly Christianity has been molded more by Paul's doctrine than that of Jesus.

This sounds like a far too intelligent discussion for this topic. (hence probably the lack of response to it)... This looks like a job for Heathenry to me...

I just fail to see how, to a non-christian, it's important to know the whole entire history of who said what in that book when we all know it's mostly lies and it's been edited infinite times by anyone and their moms.
I mean I don't give a shit who wrote Hansel and Grettel, what the original version looked like, who edited it, what cartoons were made about it etc. etc. I know the gist of it, I know it's fiction, that's enough.

At 4/21/08 04:06 AM, dySWN wrote:
Everyone wants people to agree with them. There's nothing surprising about that.

I don't. The thrill of life comes from dissonance.

People are all different. Religions cater to the masses, not the individual.

That's another problem, in an age where importance of the individual has become paramount.

At 4/21/08 10:16 AM, LazyDrunk wrote: I was still wondering, in my discarding thread, how a worldwide atheistic population would deal with spiritual dissent?

You mean if 99,9% of people on earth were atheists, and then some guy jumped out and proclaimed Jesus to be the savior and son of God?

He would be dealt with the same way how we all deal with psychics, astrologists, UFO specialists, ghost experts etc today.

At 4/21/08 10:16 AM, LazyDrunk wrote:

I don't think that's a fair assumption to make at all

Well religious people are really proud that they "Chose" their faith because it's the best. They don't like to admit that they were born into it and even if they do admit it, they still say "but I'm glad because after studying the others, I know it was the best".

If I, or others, held the belief our system was measurably superior to all others, why would anyone ever convert to other religions or atheism? Religion ISN'T for everybody.

"Good people will do good things, bad people will do bad things, it takes religion to make a good person do bad things".
So yeah I wouldn't try to push religion JUST on the good people because it could turn them bad.

Example? Ok there were these kids in class and they were taught some religious story from the bible in Isreal, probably about some guy in the old testament killing other people of another faith.
So they took them aside and asked "was it right for this guy to kill the others"? and they said "yes, because the other were of a bad religion, or impure" etc etc.
Then they try with another group, the same story but replaced the religious names with chinese names and instantly the kids changed their answers to "no, he was wrong to kill all those people".

That's what religion does to someone. It gives them stupid ideas you can't reason them out of.

Who are we being spiritual for?

Religion belies culture, and if you're spiritually bankrupt, you're going to have that much more difficulty accurately understanding where people are coming from when they say, "I could care less in the details of what they believe as long as they behave."

Well from what I saw, religious people are usually the stupidest, the less-informed and the most hateful people. Just look at america. Who is religious? People in the middle of the country, with not a lot of teeth in their mouth and with a profound hatred for outsiders. Who else? Black people who live in ghettos, can't finish high school and shoot each other while listening to rap music.
Who else in the world is the most religious? Arabs who live in shitty countries where women are dominated. Africans who can't keep their cocks in their pants and spread AIDs like wildfire.

To think religion is "just cultural" is foolish and dangerous. It's an idea. A really bad idea, like racism was. There were TONS of nice slave-owners who didn't beat their slaves, who let them have free time and who treated them like employees and even members of their familiy.
But slavery is BAD. Even if 100% of slave-owners were nice, slavery is still BAD.

That's how I see religion. The entire premise for it is flawed and when you look at the stats, you realize instantly that the dumber people are, the more religious they are.

I was still wondering, in my discarding thread, how a worldwide atheistic population would deal with spiritual dissent?

What's spiritual dissent?
I think it's something you made up.

Again with the example of slavery: "but if we free the slaves, who's going to replace them as free workers under our command?"
No one. No one should.
If you abolish religions, nothing will replaced them and we can all be thankful for it.

I think things like music, theatre, nights out, love, and the pursuit of meaning to your life and of greater understanding, make a fine replacement for religion.

I can kinda see why people in Columbia or whatever are religious, but so are the gangstas, and I can't imagine it's helping them to repent. They seem to have a great affinity with Jesus.

At 4/20/08 11:39 PM, poxpower wrote: Yes, that's what science is. Religion is anti-science.

That is refeared to as Conflict thesis.

"The historical conflict thesis was a popular historiographical approach in the history of science during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, but most contemporary historians of science now reject it.[1][2][3] It remains a widely popular view in the general public."

Meaning, less informed or biased people think like you poxpower.

sorry zoraxe, we must have all forgotten how much Genesis complements science

At 4/21/08 11:53 AM, Zoraxe7 wrote:

At 4/20/08 11:39 PM, poxpower wrote: Yes, that's what science is. Religion is anti-science.

That is refeared to as Conflict thesis.

"The historical conflict thesis was a popular historiographical approach in the history of science during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, but most contemporary historians of science now reject it.[1][2][3] It remains a widely popular view in the general public."

Meaning, less informed or biased people think like you poxpower.

Wut? you do realize the big controversies in science today, namely evolution and such, is for no other reason than religion? Or is it completely random that the more somebody opposed to evolution, the more religious they are?

At 4/21/08 11:53 AM, Zoraxe7 wrote:

At 4/20/08 11:39 PM, poxpower wrote: Yes, that's what science is. Religion is anti-science.

As usual, you seem to be forgetting that religion and science deal with two very different questions:

Science: "Why does this happen?"
Religion: "Why should I do this?"

At 4/21/08 05:20 PM, dySWN wrote:
As usual, you seem to be forgetting that religion and science deal with two very different questions:

Science: "Why does this happen?"
Religion: "Why should I do this?"

Why should I do this? So religion just tells you WHY you should do things? So survival and fun aren't reasons enough to live?

At 4/20/08 11:39 PM, poxpower wrote: It's not bigoted to ridicule religion, religion is ridicule.

big·ot·ry
-noun, plural -ries.
1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
2. the actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot.

Why should ANYONE here afford you an ounce of respect for your beliefs when you can't even manage to differentiate yourself from the people you so despise?

Harry Potter

Straw Man.

Do you wish, if it was possible, that everyone on earth converted to your set of beliefs?
Yes or no.
I'm not asking if you care, I'm asking if you wish it was so.

I would absolutely LOVE for everyone to know the word of God and follow my beliefs. However, I'm a realist, and I realize that such a thing would be humanly impossible as there hasn't ever been a moment of unified peace for the human race in it's entire existence, and I know that somewhere in the back of your mind you realize that atheism will never accomplish the same. Therefore, I'm not going to lose sleep at night if they people don't kowtow to me in my beliefs.

At 4/21/08 10:44 AM, poxpower wrote: Just look at america. Who is religious? People in the middle of the country, with not a lot of teeth in their mouth and with a profound hatred for outsiders. Who else? Black people who live in ghettos, can't finish high school and shoot each other while listening to rap music.
Who else in the world is the most religious? Arabs who live in shitty countries where women are dominated. Africans who can't keep their cocks in their pants and spread AIDs like wildfire.

... well what do you know, I give the textbook definition of Bigotry and you go and illustrate it to the letter!

My work here is done.

At 4/21/08 06:47 PM, Proteas wrote:
Why should ANYONE here afford you an ounce of respect for your beliefs when you can't even manage to differentiate yourself from the people you so despise?

You're the bigot here pretending like science is just some sub-class belief that is on equal grounds with religion. Utter disrespect for the view of every scientist who works for the truth.
If every stupid belief deserved respect, then we'd all by bigots.
I mean if you seriously believe Scientology and young-earth creationism deserves a shred of respect, then you're a fool. Calling someone bigoted instead of even addressing their arguments is a cheap foolish way to argue your way out of being proven wrong.

Straw Man.

No, your religion is fiction, just like Harry Potter.
It couldn't be more spot-on a comparison.

I would absolutely LOVE for everyone to know the word of God and follow my beliefs.

There, that implies you think everyone else of other religions is wrong.
Wow I guess you're bigoted now.

... well what do you know, I give the textbook definition of Bigotry and you go and illustrate it to the letter!

What the hell are you talking about.
Stop lying to yourself.

At 4/21/08 10:54 AM, Earfetish wrote: I think things like music, theatre, nights out, love, and the pursuit of meaning to your life and of greater understanding, make a fine replacement for religion.

That's still a religion. A set of beliefs that one follows. You mean it's not organized religion.

There's a huge difference. Words can mean anything though and I understand what you mean and agree completely. That's why religion is stagnating, because it isn't about life, it's about worship. When you can worship your ideals by living, organized religion tends to look a bit unnecessary.

At 4/21/08 10:44 AM, poxpower wrote:

Example? Ok there were these kids in class and they were taught some religious story from the bible in Isreal, probably about some guy in the old testament killing other people of another faith.
So they took them aside and asked "was it right for this guy to kill the others"? and they said "yes, because the other were of a bad religion, or impure" etc etc.
Then they try with another group, the same story but replaced the religious names with chinese names and instantly the kids changed their answers to "no, he was wrong to kill all those people".

This example was mentioned in The God Delusion. The study was conducted by an Israeli psychologist called George Tamarin. Here's the actual story from the Bible:

Joshua said to the people, 'Shout; for the LORD has given you the city. And all that is within shall be devoted to the LORD for destruction ... But all silver and gold, and vessels of bronze and iron, are sacred to the LORD.' ... They then utterly destroyed the all in the city, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep and asses, with the edge of the sword ... And they burned the city with fire, and all within it; only the silver and gold, and the vessels of bronze and iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the LORD.

When Tamarin asked some Israeli children that had been brought up Jewish, if Joshua and the Israelites did the right thing or not, 66% gave total approval and 26% total disapproval. When Tamarin replaced the name Joshua with "General Lin", and Israel with "a Chinese Kingdom" and gave the same question to another group of Israeli children, only 7% gave total approval, and 75% total disapproval. As Richard Dawkins put it in the book, "It was religion that made the difference between children condemning genocide and condoning it."