At 6/6/10 07:05 AM, M-Vero wrote: Honestly, when the times comes for it, kinsei's one of the best we have around here for critiques. Other people have valid points and helpful advice as well when it comes to helping the occasional guy out, but no one things them out to the level kinsei does.

On other people who help people out, telling people to find a tutorial on something is great, but without linking one or suggesting an artist who does good ones its just about as good as giving someone a map with no landmarks on it.

There are A LOT of tutorials, some better than others, and some by people who frankly should not be giving advice to anyone. Fishing through these can be tedious, I know, I've done my share of it.
When I come across one that's particularly helpful to me, I bookmark it and share that with other people who are looking for something along the lines of it.

It just kind of urks me that people seem so eager to help, but don't feel like putting in the effort to give some proper help.

Except there is a wonderful map of internet called google that makes it easy to find out which tutorials are good. There are tons of forums out there, not only newgrounds, where you can search for reviews on which are good or nawt.

And to be honest, tutorials pfft, they are useless. The only way you can help yourself improve is by practicing and using your abstract part of brain, and from personal experience tutorials do not help giving you a natural understanding of art. Sure, you find some tutorial on how to draw a face, but you're just following instructions and not actually learning. Let's also not forget there is a limit on how far you can get, meaning talent that few honestly do have. Even so, you need to experiment, activate the brain in a new kind of way. That's the only way you do get better and actually make yourself learn. When it comes to art, it is doubtful tutorials help, but a theoretical textbook is a different story, such as learning how to drive. You learn how to use the gear, the gas pedal, traffic rules and how to break and how and when to apply these action, but it doesn't actually teach you how to drive professionally, nothing can. After getting your license, you may be able to drive but nothing will teach you how to drive better as it is all up to how your brain handles all the input from the enviornment forwarding it to the nervous system that controls movement. Just like with art, some people can't process the world into a visual style looking good, and I have noticed that those with talent actually can illustrate objects into something recognizable although the lineart may be a bit off proportion.

And I can't really blame people who don't put effort helping out. Do you expect everyone to be enthusiastic about contributing with critiques? Are everyone good at it? Nope. You should know this, that to get served you also need to serve, nothing is for free. People half assedly comment on other peoples art, saying something nice or giving "critiques" just because theirs are not getting any attention. It is just psychology, social tactics for rewards.

At 6/6/10 08:43 AM, Droghead wrote: And to be honest, tutorials pfft, they are useless. The only way you can help yourself improve is by practicing and using your abstract part of brain, and from personal experience tutorials do not help giving you a natural understanding of art. .... When it comes to art, it is doubtful tutorials help, but a theoretical textbook is a different story.

I quite agree that I've never followed an art tutorial to the letter. I have followed Flash tutorials for fun and try something new, but I definitely can't say I'd be able to create a Shoot'em up from scratch.

However, I defintely can't believe anybody's learnt anything soully by themselves, otherwise we'd all be born-again Leonardo Da Vincis and rediscovering perspective. I'm dead certain that most of the techniques I use now have been from a book or magazine, or I've adopted them from somebody on the internet.

Whilst you can't read a tutorial and become a genius, I certainly wouldn't say that you should disregard them. As with anything, you only learn by the reapplication of your skills.

And I can't really blame people who don't put effort helping out. Do you expect everyone to be enthusiastic about contributing with critiques? Are everyone good at it? Nope. You should know this, that to get served you also need to serve, nothing is for free. People half assedly comment on other peoples art, saying something nice or giving "critiques" just because theirs are not getting any attention. It is just psychology, social tactics for rewards.

Couldn't disagree more. Mind-games, my arse.

I've only commented or critiqued on something because I felt the need to respond to it. Much like this discussion. The only times I've ever felt guilty is with the tech support thread or locking threads. However, it's only because I knew what the answer was, and that delaying a response is stupid.

I can think of no occasion when someone has made a comment in order to advertise themselves; only to ascert their opinion (good or awful).

At 6/6/10 09:44 AM, TurkeyOnAStick wrote: Couldn't disagree more. Mind-games, my arse.

I've only commented or critiqued on something because I felt the need to respond to it. Much like this discussion. The only times I've ever felt guilty is with the tech support thread or locking threads. However, it's only because I knew what the answer was, and that delaying a response is stupid.

I can think of no occasion when someone has made a comment in order to advertise themselves; only to ascert their opinion (good or awful).

I see, but I can only think this way, and this is what I assume because of past experiences: people generally don't care about others, they don't trouble helping others when they themselves have their own issues to care about. If you want something in return, then you need to do a favor.
My personality is pure paranoia however, I'm brainfucked ;O

But, I promise you I was not trying to insist that you do this as a mind-game. When I used to browse this forum (no account back then) during these times when the art forum did not exist, a lot of beginners were spamming not even close to half-decent pictures, praising in an exaggarative fashion along with invaluable criticism. I could not think that was an action taken for nothing but trying to get nice comments themselves. Annoying nontheless.

I always like to try and give advice to people, especially when their thread has been completed ignored and they're looking for a critique. The only problem is that I feel that sometimes I just don't know enough about art to give a proper critique and that I'm just blabbering uselessly without giving anything actually helpful. Especially when I take a look at my own artwork.... I know I've improved (finally), but it's still really weak, especially when you compare it to most of you guys here. I want to be useful, and help out the little guy, but there's always that little voice in the back of my head that's saying "Don't try to help them, you don't know jack-shit about art, you know nothing about form and technique, you're just rambling like an idiot and everyone you've said is useless".
Am I the only one?

Man, all these post about people acting like assholes have a lot of sense into them. Yeah, people who think that their work is real awesome but they are really not, just plain pisses me off. And trolls who post random pics that are not even theirs and making threads about it.

And also, noobs kinda annoy me a bit because of all of their links and threads that lack starter pics. Some also post a thread for every work they do, I mean we linked the rules right? And most of threads in this forum are just art threads that were made by people and never to be updated again.

If you guys don't post soon I'm taking over the art forum. >:D

At 6/6/10 10:55 AM, Fifty-50 wrote: If you guys don't post soon I'm taking over the art forum. >:D

dont worry about it, iv done that plenty of times

At 6/6/10 11:13 AM, Ashman wrote:

At 6/6/10 10:55 AM, Fifty-50 wrote: If you guys don't post soon I'm taking over the art forum. >:D

dont worry about it, iv done that plenty of times

I only did that to encourage you guys to post. :D

Tutorials can be very useful, not so much as an end all be all, here is what to draw and how to draw it.

I see them as a small tutor on a page, explaining something they aren't exactly sure how to draw for them self, and usually, a lot better worded than I could put myself and with visuals no less.
To say they are useless is a little overboard, but they should sure as hell not be your only source.

As for comments, yes people do whore themselves out comment-wise to attract a little attention to themselves, but that doesn't mean that's the mentality of everyone. Personally I've stopped caring about getting other people to see my stuff, the fact that I have people I know who enjoy the stuff I make is enough for me, and if someone just happens to stumble on my work, be it a thumb on DA or on newgrounds or whatever, I'm sure as hell not gonna complain.

fifty when people come in with honest requests or looking for artists dont just jump on them with the rules, try to point them in the right direction

that is all

At 6/6/10 12:22 PM, Ashman wrote: fifty when people come in with honest requests or looking for artists dont just jump on them with the rules, try to point them in the right direction

that is all

Thanks a lot Ashman. It's already 2 am, I guess my mind is a bit cloudy.

At 6/6/10 10:32 AM, big-jonny-13 wrote: I always like to try and give advice to people, especially when their thread has been completed ignored and they're looking for a critique. The only problem is that I feel that sometimes I just don't know enough about art to give a proper critique and that I'm just blabbering uselessly without giving anything actually helpful. Especially when I take a look at my own artwork.... I know I've improved (finally), but it's still really weak, especially when you compare it to most of you guys here. I want to be useful, and help out the little guy, but there's always that little voice in the back of my head that's saying "Don't try to help them, you don't know jack-shit about art, you know nothing about form and technique, you're just rambling like an idiot and everyone you've said is useless".
Am I the only one?

No idea if you are the only one, but wouldn't it be better if you just don't say anything. It's the same as listening to a discussion and the topic is about something you have little to no clue about. Would you join?

And talking about tutorials. If I would ever go back to art again, I'd have to master how to draw smooth lines with the mouse (Ya, I prefer to draw with the mouse, rofl), but the main problem is visualizing anything in my head except for weird ass faces. Backgrounds? Objects? Perspective? It makes me loose hair out of frustration. Problems with smooth motorics is a nono.

But hey, I'll keep an eye on the stuff ya peeps make.

At 6/6/10 12:25 PM, Fifty-50 wrote:

At 6/6/10 12:22 PM, Ashman wrote: fifty when people come in with honest requests or looking for artists dont just jump on them with the rules, try to point them in the right direction

that is all

Thanks a lot Ashman. It's already 2 am, I guess my mind is a bit cloudy.

actually you were kinda helpful, but people have gotta remember the request thread is only for paying requests, we should really have a non paying request thread

At 6/6/10 12:30 PM, Ashman wrote: we should really have a non paying request thread

What, a "stuff that will never get done" thread?

At 6/6/10 12:30 PM, Ashman wrote: actually you were kinda helpful, but people have gotta remember the request thread is only for paying requests, we should really have a non paying request thread

Ha, I've thought about that. Somewhere people can do throw-away requests, like a sketch or drawing. Nothing huge. Just to encourage people to draw.

If the sig makers crew can do this service, I can't see why something similar doesn't exist on the art forum which requires a similar amount of effort.

... also some text somewhere that says there's no guarantee that your request will be made.

At 6/6/10 12:29 PM, Droghead wrote: No idea if you are the only one, but wouldn't it be better if you just don't say anything. It's the same as listening to a discussion and the topic is about something you have little to no clue about. Would you join?

I dunno, it's hard to explain almost.
It's like I understand the concepts and physics of art, yet I can't get them down myself.
It's not that I know nothing at all, it's just that compared to others, I know little, and I really am probably the weakest artist [don't know if I'd even be considered that] in the art forum.
Then again, I always feel bad when people come in looking for help and their thread just gets entirely ignored. Maybe it's because I know how it feels to be horrible at art, maybe it's because I know how it feels to be the little guy in a big pond, but either way, I almost feel obliged to offer what I can.
But I just wonder if I'm doing the right thing by offering what little I have, or if it would be better just to avoid trying to help and in turn just confusing the person more or frustrating them or such.

Blah! There will always be those that know more than you and those that know less. You help when you can!
...unless you're one of those people that thinks they know everything ...in which case, you're an idiot :D

well, today is turning out nice. Had a good drive, although I found I need to replace my breaks, but I dropped by Bookmans to pick up a couple of DVDs and some comics, an got lucky. I was some sort of winner and got them for free :P

although if I knew that was going to happen, I would have picked up that dragon book and those other DVDs I was eyeballing.

At 6/6/10 12:39 PM, TurkeyOnAStick wrote: Ha, I've thought about that. Somewhere people can do throw-away requests, like a sketch or drawing. Nothing huge. Just to encourage people to draw.

If the sig makers crew can do this service, I can't see why something similar doesn't exist on the art forum which requires a similar amount of effort.

... also some text somewhere that says there's no guarantee that your request will be made.

I think this is actually a good idea - and as non-paying customers, they'd have to work out something that would please both the artists and themselves to be drawn, because well, they're not paying for it. Although that's not likely to be too much of a problem - it's hard to be anything less than ecstatic with something you got for free.

At 6/6/10 09:39 PM, Kinsei01 wrote: well, today is turning out nice. Had a good drive, although I found I need to replace my breaks, but I dropped by Bookmans to pick up a couple of DVDs and some comics, an got lucky. I was some sort of winner and got them for free :P

although if I knew that was going to happen, I would have picked up that dragon book and those other DVDs I was eyeballing.

Wow, congrats. So what DVD's did you get? I hope it's not one of those zombie movies again. :P

At 6/6/10 10:15 PM, Fifty-50 wrote: Wow, congrats. So what DVD's did you get? I hope it's not one of those zombie movies again. :P

nah I already have most of he Zombie made, I bought a copy of Serenity so I don't have to bum copies off my friends any more.

At 6/6/10 10:20 PM, Kinsei01 wrote:

At 6/6/10 10:15 PM, Fifty-50 wrote: Wow, congrats. So what DVD's did you get? I hope it's not one of those zombie movies again. :P

nah I already have most of he Zombie made, I bought a copy of Serenity so I don't have to bum copies off my friends any more.

Well, good luck with that Kinsei. :D

At 6/6/10 10:55 AM, Fifty-50 wrote: If you guys don't post soon I'm taking over the art forum. >:D

It's good to see you posting in the Art Forum regularly again.

At 6/6/10 12:25 PM, Fifty-50 wrote: ....it's already 2 am, I guess my mind is a bit cloudy.

bah, that word always catches my attention cos I think ppl are talking about me :P

At 6/5/10 05:37 PM, Ashman wrote:

At 6/5/10 05:35 PM, Kinsei01 wrote: yep I should have seen it coming. But even so I still needed to watch it, even if I knew it was going to be bad. I Kind of try to watch all zombie movies. But hey at least it is not the worst zombie movie I have seen.

Cough* Resident Evil: Extinction. House of the Dead 1 and 2 Cough*

cough* resident evil movie thats in the making *cough

Woooh wohh wwooh!! I was checkin the update to the lounge and i see everyone on the resident evil bashing wagon. Lets calm down people, just because someone (*cough* Paul W. S. Anderson *cough*) Has absolutely no idea about the Resident Evil series doesn't mean the new movie's going to absolutely "suck"..... *cough wink wink*

When you compare the Art Forum lounge to some of the other lounges we seem quite normal...
wtf 1, wtf 2 < see what I mean :)

At 6/7/10 10:32 AM, CloudEater wrote: When you compare the Art Forum lounge to some of the other lounges we seem quite normal...
wtf 1, wtf 2 < see what I mean :)

LOLOLOL! What the hell was that? Seriously. I have never seen anything like this in our lounge, not that I don't like the lounge the way it is.

At 6/7/10 10:43 AM, Fifty-50 wrote: LOLOLOL! What the hell was that? Seriously. I have never seen anything like this in our lounge, not that I don't like the lounge the way it is.

If we tried anything like that here Kraig and Nae and ToaS would rip our heads of.... but in the Audio forum the mods promote it!? lol Rucklo

At 6/7/10 10:49 AM, CloudEater wrote: If we tried anything like that here Kraig and Nae and ToaS would rip our heads of.... but in the Audio forum the mods promote it!? lol Rucklo

I agree. If we try anything like I think we would earn a perma ban.

At 6/7/10 10:57 AM, Fifty-50 wrote:

At 6/7/10 10:49 AM, CloudEater wrote: If we tried anything like that here Kraig and Nae and ToaS would rip our heads of.... but in the Audio forum the mods promote it!? lol Rucklo

I agree. If we try anything like I think we would earn a perma ban.

They can't perma ban... and I think i have made enough posts today to keep my post count in its growing state... so goodnight :)

That's all stuff from the montreal meet... and it's hilarious. If anyone here ever did anything that epic, I'd faint from disbelief! :P