NG Deserves Our Support

[KupaMan]

A couple days ago I had started writing a draft of a Medium post about Newgrounds and I kind of just let it sit for a while. Then Tom posted about the site's 22nd birthday, and it felt kind of serendipitous. So here it is:

How Newgrounds Changed the Game -- And Why It Needs Our Help

The title is a little bit clickbaity, because "Newgrounds is Really Important to Me and Young People Deserve a Place Like It" doesn't work as well when it's being featured on a gaming publication. This also isn't an historic look at Newgrounds like KaptainKristian's excellent YouTube video was. It's more about my personal experience with Newgrounds, and why I think people need to support it.

I haven't made any content for Newgrounds in 6 years now. Granted, I haven't made any content for anybody in a while, but I hate the feeling that I've abandoned a place that was so influential to me growing up.

I found NG in 2000 when I was 11 years old, and created my account at 13, in 2002. I started making cartoons at 15, and went on to make 30 more, plus a few games, and participated in a number of collaborations.

This October, my account will be 15 years old. It will be older than I was when I started here. That means there are users here that have been born since I've been coming here, and are discovering not only the stuff that inspired me, but the stuff myself and others have made from that inspiration.

Newgrounds created a unique opportunity for me to explore my interests, find new ones, and collaborate with like-minded people. I want kids today to have the same opportunity I had, and I want to see what they can do with the foundation we've laid for them.

I've made a career out of the talents and relationships built from the Newgrounds community, and it wouldn't have happened without it. If Newgrounds needs financial support to continue having that impact on the next wave of game designers and animators, I owe it. I think a lot of us owe it. A lot of people that have long moved on still owe it.

If you can afford to drop $9 every time you walk into a Starbucks without batting an eye, you can give $3 a month to keep this shit going.

NG's currently sitting at half of its July Target. Let's change that.

[KupaMan]

At 7/8/17 03:55 PM, yurgenburgen wrote:

At 7/8/17 03:05 PM, KupaMan wrote: If you can afford to drop $9 every time you walk into a Starbucks without batting an eye

speak for yourself broski. more of what i earn goes on tax every month than what i spend on food.

Then I guess that solves the "if" of that statement, doesn't it, bud?

[aListers]

When I'm off student loans and get a job I'll probably be doubling the amount I give. Until then $4.99 per month is all I can give for now.

[KupaMan]

At 7/8/17 03:58 PM, MemeFiend wrote: Does it?

I was hoping you'd read the post and answer that question for yourself.

[KupaMan]

At 7/8/17 09:53 PM, RightTime wrote: Yeah, I've got to agree with yurgenburgen here. If you end your message with a condescending conclusion like this...

then you're not going to get much sympathy here. This is not a wealthy community. Maybe that statement resonates with you, but it will not resonate to many people here. Still, over a thousand manage to support the site every month anyway. Your medium article makes a much better argument than this post does.

The average American adult spends over $15 a week on coffee; $60 a month. The average Taco Bell order is about $7. A booster pack of Pokemon cards is $3.50. Take your pick, but don't bullshit me about what resonates, because you know what point I'm making. $3 a month is not "wealthy community" money, and while I get that not everybody can afford to do even that, more people that use this site regularly -- and that benefit from this site regularly -- could and should. Like I have said already, if you can afford it, you should.

You've got almost 2,000 posts on these forums in less than a year. You're obviously getting a lot out of this place. Do you not think it earns $3 a month?

I'm not trying to gain sympathy. I won't benefit from this, not directly. I want this place to succeed, and I think that it can if more people that take advantage of what it has to offer would chip in.

And look, I'm not trying to guilt anybody into donating. That's fine if you don't want to, but I think it's worth putting it into perspective. Newgrounds is not asking for that much, and if just a fraction of the people that use this site regularly, or have benefited from the site like so many have, would just chip in the bare minimum, they wouldn't be struggling to make ends meet.

Also, it's funny that you say the Medium article makes a better case, because I posted it so you'd read my point. Obviously I make a better case there than I do here. I don't get why you even brought that up.

[KupaMan]

At 7/9/17 01:53 AM, yurgenburgen wrote:

At 7/9/17 01:45 AM, KupaMan wrote: The average American adult spends over $15 a week on coffee; $60 a month

who the fuck can afford that
i spend $30 a year on coffee, and i'm even considering cutting down on it

I know, it's disgusting.

EDIT: Coffee, and the spending habit.

[ADR3-N]

I've always said the first thing I'm going to do when I manage to get a bank account up (with enough balance not to incur fees), I'm going to get that supporter badge. Newgrounds has done more than enough for me -- changed my entire outlook on life, given me opportunities I never thought I'd have. I don't do much outside of music here, but without Tom and NG, I'd never have pursued music in the first place. Also, it's cool as fuck Tom sent you a tablet. Wow.

Shared your post on FB and my artist page there.

[FunkyBeat]

I think everyone would want to support it if they could, but if what I hear from places like Sleepycast represents the entirety of people on Newgrounds, most people barely have enough money to support themselves, and supporting something like this would be second on their priorities.

[KupaMan]

At 7/9/17 08:21 AM, RightTime wrote: I could say the same for you. You've been a member here for 15 years and yet as far as I can tell you only became a supporter this month even though the option was available for some 5 years. I've been a supporter pretty much since I started this here and yet here you are loading on the guilt. It strikes me as a bit hypocritical.

As for your argument that boils down to that it doesn't matter what you say, but what you mean just isn't true. In reality both things matter. You've run your own businesses and that includes advertising. Are you really going to make the argument that how you do that doesn't matter to how likely people are to try your product. Why is this situation any different?

You're asking people to spend their money. Do you think demeaning them is a good way to do it or can you just not figure out a way to back out of a dumb statement you made? Fifteen dollars a week and $9 a day are obviously not the same thing and even that statistic is pretty questionable. All the references to that stat track back to an ABC news article with no report attached to it. The report may exist, though good luck finding it. If you care enough to ask and spend time and effort doing so then you should care enough to consider your words when addressing the actual community you think so much of.

This is getting ridiculous. I'll unpack this a bit, but I'm not going to continue to have this bullshit discussion with you.

I've been a member since March, when Tom wrote the call to action about supporting the site. It hadn't occurred to me that it was struggling, or to what degree. Prior to that, I hadn't been an active member of this community for a number of years (because life happens when you grow up).

I have no fucking clue what point you're getting at with advertising, or my wife's webcomic. If you're saying that my advertising speech for Newgrounds isn't effective, I don't work for Newgrounds. I'm trying to make the case that I think people should support it, and that they're not asking for very much money to do that.

If you find it demeaning to suggest that people spend $9 at Starbucks, I don't know what to tell you. The "for the price of a cup of coffee" line has been a staple of the Children's Miracle Network for 40 years. I'm clearly using hyperbole to illustrate a point. I am aware most people don't actually go to Starbucks every day, and most people probably don't spend $9 every time, but it's also not an unrealistic comparison.

I don't understand how you think I mean that $9 x 5 = $15, though. The average American adult spends $15 about a week on coffee. I'm not going to explain to you how averages work.

I'm glad you support the site. I think more people should. I should have sooner. Newgrounds has done a lot for me and others, and if more people support it, the value it provides can continue to impact even more young creators for years to come. Not everyone can afford to support the website, but those of us who can should consider it. To reiterate my point that got your feathers in a tuft: if you can afford to spend $9 on a Venti Mocha and some Bantam Bagels, you should think about supporting Newgrounds for $3.

At 7/9/17 06:38 AM, EDM364 wrote: I've always said the first thing I'm going to do when I manage to get a bank account up (with enough balance not to incur fees), I'm going to get that supporter badge. Newgrounds has done more than enough for me -- changed my entire outlook on life, given me opportunities I never thought I'd have. I don't do much outside of music here, but without Tom and NG, I'd never have pursued music in the first place. Also, it's cool as fuck Tom sent you a tablet. Wow.

Shared your post on FB and my artist page there.

I didn't touch on the Audio Portal at all in my post (it's not my background), but I think it's probably the best music community on the internet. One of my good friends on here, Taylor Sirman, has made a ton of incredible music for Newgrounds. He's hosted it on Soundcloud and everywhere else, but he gets a hundred times more plays here than anywhere else. It's truly a remarkable community of super talented people. I mean, listen to this:

• 

  Lullaby from Leviathan

  by TaylorS

  Lullaby from my concert piece Leviathan

  Song

  Classical

  1,685 Views

  PLAY

This kid is fucking talented. I've been friends with him for years now, and have provided him with some artwork for his track covers, and none of that would have been possible without Newgrounds.

[TomFulp]

At 7/8/17 03:05 PM, KupaMan wrote: A couple days ago I had started writing a draft of a Medium post about Newgrounds and I kind of just let it sit for a while. Then Tom posted about the site's 22nd birthday, and it felt kind of serendipitous. So here it is:

Thanks for writing this! To be honest I wish a lot more people were straight up angry that NG doesn't have 10,000+ supporters by now. I know they're out there, the word just hasn't reached them yet.

I feel like people don't properly understand the impact this system could have. I think they picture the best case scenario is that NG just doesn't shut down, vs a scenario where NG is on more platforms, sponsoring more original content and paying creators a higher CPM than YouTube.

Literally 100s of millions of people have passed through this site over the past 22 years, if 100,000 of them ever came aboard for $3 a month, that would be $300k in spending power every month. We could cover all our internal costs, spend $50k on outside content / special projects and redistribute the rest at a ridiculous CPM based on current traffic levels. The impact of 100k monthly subscribers would be like nothing ever seen on the web, because NG doesn't hemorrhage millions of dollars of internal expenses every month like YouTube, SoundCloud and so many other sites do.

Think about this. SoundCloud lost almost $52 million in 2015 while it was winning all those artists away from the NG Audio Portal. That is $140,000 LOST every day (they actually made millions too, so total expenses were even greater).

$300k to SoundCloud that year would cover 2 days in losses, where $300k for NG would mean all of our expenses covered for the month + lets say $50,000 spent on original content and special projects + $200,000 distributed to the community all without NG running a single third party ad anywhere on the site. And we could do that EVERY MONTH if 100,000 people had recurring subscriptions.

IT'S. FUCKING. CRAZY. It's stupid. There's no reason that shouldn't make people want to take a stab at making that happen, if they've enjoyed what has come out of NG. It's also a matter of, HEY, NG has had to really struggle and compromise to stick around all this time - it has to run ugly ads, it has to run porn ads. Why not help it STOP DOING THAT and START BEING WHAT WE ALL THINK IT CAN BE.

[ratchili]

Once my PayPal's finally all set up, first thing I'm doing is becoming a supporter. I'll lend NG some funbucks for sure, even if college is about to destroy me financially forever.

[EctiBot]

I've been saying "I'll do it some day" for too long, so I'll just go ahead and do it.

[KupaMan]

At 7/9/17 05:23 PM, TomFulp wrote: Thanks for writing this! To be honest I wish a lot more people were straight up angry that NG doesn't have 10,000+ supporters by now. I know they're out there, the word just hasn't reached them yet.

I feel like people don't properly understand the impact this system could have. I think they picture the best case scenario is that NG just doesn't shut down, vs a scenario where NG is on more platforms, sponsoring more original content and paying creators a higher CPM than YouTube.

Literally 100s of millions of people have passed through this site over the past 22 years, if 100,000 of them ever came aboard for $3 a month, that would be $300k in spending power every month. We could cover all our internal costs, spend $50k on outside content / special projects and redistribute the rest at a ridiculous CPM based on current traffic levels. The impact of 100k monthly subscribers would be like nothing ever seen on the web, because NG doesn't hemorrhage millions of dollars of internal expenses every month like YouTube, SoundCloud and so many other sites do.

Think about this. SoundCloud lost almost $52 million in 2015 while it was winning all those artists away from the NG Audio Portal. That is $140,000 LOST every day (they actually made millions too, so total expenses were even greater).

$300k to SoundCloud that year would cover 2 days in losses, where $300k for NG would mean all of our expenses covered for the month + lets say $50,000 spent on original content and special projects + $200,000 distributed to the community all without NG running a single third party ad anywhere on the site. And we could do that EVERY MONTH if 100,000 people had recurring subscriptions.

IT'S. FUCKING. CRAZY. It's stupid. There's no reason that shouldn't make people want to take a stab at making that happen, if they've enjoyed what has come out of NG. It's also a matter of, HEY, NG has had to really struggle and compromise to stick around all this time - it has to run ugly ads, it has to run porn ads. Why not help it STOP DOING THAT and START BEING WHAT WE ALL THINK IT CAN BE.

I think it's really frustrating that so many people see NG as a "Flash site" still. It was always about the content, not the format. The fact that most of the new content isn't in Flash is a testament to the fact that there's a future here beyond Flash, and it's a future built on the community.

When YouTubers talk about their community, I want to start a fire. That's a comments section. NG has always been a great place where the line between creators and audience doesn't exist. Projects are openly discussed on forums and take input from all sources, artwork and music is made in heaps specifically for forum contests, and entire pieces of content are inside jokes from the history of the website. No other community on the internet has that kind of community.

It's cheesy to bring up "Everything, by Everyone," but it's accurate. This place has a voice, and its users -- past and present -- identify with it. People host their movies on Vimeo; they host their games on ArmorGames; they host their music on Soundcloud. People here make stuff for Newgrounds. They might put it other places, but this will always be home for that content. At least that's how I've always felt.

[RoboHex]

I would like to point out that NG isn't just for young people. Some of us, who are not teenagers anymore, also love this site to death!

I've only been on here for two years so I have no old history with NG. I'm a supporter because of what NG is TODAY, not because of old times.

[Sevkat]

newgrounds has been dying for like four or five years
you guys need to just accept it
people use youtube and instagram
tom should have sold us out
i bet he hates himself for losing all that money

[RoboHex]

At 7/9/17 09:03 PM, Sevkat wrote: newgrounds has been dying for like four or five years
you guys need to just accept it
people use youtube and instagram
tom should have sold us out
i bet he hates himself for losing all that money

So, why are you then tormenting yourself by hanging around here?

[KupaMan]

At 7/9/17 09:03 PM, Sevkat wrote: newgrounds has been dying for like four or five years
you guys need to just accept it
people use youtube and instagram
tom should have sold us out
i bet he hates himself for losing all that money

What an asshole.

[sirL]

IT'S. FUCKING. CRAZY. It's stupid. There's no reason that shouldn't make people want to take a stab at making that happen, if they've enjoyed what has come out of NG. It's also a matter of, HEY, NG has had to really struggle and compromise to stick around all this time - it has to run ugly ads, it has to run porn ads. Why not help it STOP DOING THAT and START BEING WHAT WE ALL THINK IT CAN BE.

This is just how i see things, i may be wrong. But try to see it as a content creator who just got into the page would, as long as newgrounds can get you noticed by people, so lets say you want to be a professional, AT MOST you can be smart and publish a demo of your game,a link to your song on soundcloud, or any attractive art/movie with a link to your page or patreon and thats as far as you can get, here, like anywhere else, you need to keep proving your worth as your creator to keep yourself poppular, and that means time, it means effort and in some cases it even means money, that makes your content creating power rely almost entirely either on amateurs, or in people who does it as a hobby. It makes fine peaces of entertainment in every of its ways, but there is not that feeling of "hey, this is a good place for me to earn enghout for a subscripion and a coffee"that, for example, you get after certain point in youtube if you are talented and lucky,besides the calendar and the "upload your creations!" button there is little to no incentive to make content. All this makes some pretty big limitations to who can do it and what can be done,unless you are new or you really enjoy to make free stuff other people will have fun with,making good content here it's a bad idea. A page its as good as its content, and a forum as good as its members, NG has a great comunity and many members make a big effort to bring new content.Many of NG's supporters are people who has been arround for a while, and want to support the page for the good memories it created and want to make possible other people to have the same experience,but even with all that you cant expect them to pay for creator's "incentive" if they do then great,but dont get your hopes too high, yes, i'ts a small number,but as a whole you are asking a lot.This is a great page Tom, but it's glory days are gone,newgrounds will remain, it will grow...but slowly, that's the only way this 22 years old page can grow, you may have some opportunities as some of the hidden great minds on the page make popular content to have more people for a short period of time, but that's as far as it will get, you have experience in this subject, you know the 100k of supporters its a distant dream and as long as you keep pushing i will have a great respect for you, just get your feet down to earth.

pd: don't blame the porn ads, be grateful of the horny teen kids who click on them, better days will come, you just need to be lucky

[KupaMan]

At 7/13/17 09:01 AM, sirL wrote: A lot of poorly formatted sentences.

I think there's potential for multiple phases of NG's recovery. The first phase is getting support from the "alumni" that NG gave opportunities to for years. By leveraging the support of those people, NG can position itself as a place for new content creators to whet their skills and develop an audience around their work. From there, NG can build to the second phase of support, by incentivizing the Supporter program with exclusives and stuff that is worthwhile.

I don't see the Supporter subscription right now as being a premium service -- it's literally to help support the website. Eventually, it could transition into a YouTube Red (or a better example) service, but that's not the intent right now. It's a donation with perks.

The next phase of NG's recovery could be something that would re-position its market value in a way that make sense. Like, what if NG started helping to publish indie games? Double Fine has been pretty successful helping indie developers bring their games out, and I think NG has the clout to do that. I imagine a lot of people could benefit from having that branding and built-in community supporting their new game on Steam. There's already an NG curator page on Steam for games by NG developers. I think they could take that to the next level and help finance / distribute / market those games in an official capacity. @TomFulp take note.

Similarly, they could become a distributor of animation too. Studios like Frederator have incubator festivals that showcase short animations they fund that they use to produce series (on YouTube, Amazon Prime, Netflix, TV, etc.). NG has the creative pool to do similar things. I wouldn't want them to do it that same way, but I think there's potential for mutually beneficial production / funding / support of NG-branded series or something.

I don't know, I'm sure Tom has much more thoughtful, creative ideas about how things could go. I personally like the idea of Newgrounds becoming some sort of community-based multimedia producer. I think the future of NG is in its brand and in its legacy; it doesn't have to stay within its domain name.

Nightmare Cops is going to be a Steam game produced by Newgrounds and with the talents of the community involved. I think / hope that it could be the start of Newgrounds as a conduit for developers to make NG-branded Steam and console games, as well as other media, going forward.