I see I've been mentioned a few times as an underdog xD Hey @troisnyx and @step.

In my experience, I joined Newgrounds on 16th June 2013, last summer. This was actually a day after the auditions thread for last year's NGADM was made, which of course I had no idea of at the time. I'd not even heard of it. Meanwhile people were sending in their auditions for that, I was adjusting to Newgrounds. Uploading some of my music, working out how to get scouted in the audio portal, all that shit.

I must have had perhaps 4 or 5 fans and little over 100 views collectively on all the tracks that I'd posted when a lovely man named @Emil who had spotted my music in the audio portal linked the NGADM to me and suggested I joined. Even when I submitted my audition, I was extremely unaware that I was entering the biggest music competition on this website, yet of course I still didn't expect to go through.

I got through and round by round I was put up against people I'd never met before, musicians whose music I'd never heard. Round by round some of the contestants and I got to know each other. I slowly made friendships with some of the judges and simply followers of that year's NGADM reached out to me and showed me support. Even over a year later, this experience that to most people is just an awesome community competition, hasn't ceased to amaze me. It really gave me direction and molded me as a musician. As somebody who began the competition knowing not a single person in the competition, being granted the title of third place you would think would be near impossible. Although, that's along similar lines of what some people in this thread to be suggesting.

I'm not quite sure I would refer my own self as an underdog or not, but I don't think it has much to do with popularity. Somebody that nobody knows can have equal amounts of success in the community as somebody that is an established musician already. Respect is something a lot of musicians here have in heaps for other people, new and old. I've never felt more at home in such a big place so quickly. Make music, join competitions, reach out to people and be friendly. That is all that is needed.

Peace and love! <3

p.s. I definitely meant @Emid I don't know why I typed Emil lmao :(((

As much as I like the idea of allowing underdogs to get noticed, I think it goes with the flawed notion that the whole purpose of this site is to get popular. The reason why you get 0-bombers in the frontpage and weekly bests like many users here are saying is because they get jealous of the popularity that someone has because that's what they believe is the whole point of posting anything on here.

I hate to verge too far on the topic, but I personally think a better idea than making an underdog contest (which really only furthers the idea that being popular means you make good music), is encouraging more users to check out the "lastest" section instead of the weeklys monthlys or whatever.

I always loved that newgrounds gives people experience for checking out games and movies everyday, but I really wish they did the same for music as well, or maybe just new music. It would help people get opinions a lot faster if the community was encouraged to check out brand new stuff more often. This is something I have been trying to do this whole summer by reviewing at least one new song every day or so (sloppily though).

As much as I'd like underdogs who are really good to get noticed, I feel like it'd be better if we could get people to stop caring so much about their popularity and more about how good their music really is. I can say that there has been like 3 reviews from this site that changed the my entire career as a musician because they made me realize that I suck. If I got super popular from 5ing myself and getting the front page at some point, then I would just be popular and probably still suck as much as I did.

It isn't much, but I could offer up air time for the winning songs on my radio show/podcast. Exposure is exposure!

Those people that are frontpaged are usualy better artists than we are and thier place there is well deserved.

LOL don't mind me there, I'm currently frontpaged only cuz I did something for ROBOT DAY.
I don't want to see anything worse than "mega super cool" being frontpaged...like ever.
It's my last place to pick up truly outstanding music and I will zerobomb everything that doesn't belong there.
Luckily the people who frontpage stuff have more than good taste for what to put there, so I didn't realy get to practice this threat....BUT I WILL.

I'm the frontpage defender!

At 7/21/14 11:38 AM, Deshiel wrote:

I'm the frontpage defender!

what is the criteria for your subjectivity?

At 7/21/14 11:44 AM, Bad-Man-Incorporated wrote:

At 7/21/14 11:38 AM, Deshiel wrote:

I'm the frontpage defender!

what is the criteria for your subjectivity?

One does not need a high-tech studio quality to impress me, or to break throught my defenses. I <3 creativity, I like it when the music makes sense and everything goes hand in hand like a solved piece of a puzzle game (can't realy come up with better explanation). Frontpaged stuff should be only from the best that the audio community has to offer.

But when something too bland and boring gets there, I will strike. Maybe I'm just jealous :)

At 7/21/14 11:57 AM, Deshiel wrote:

At 7/21/14 11:44 AM, Bad-Man-Incorporated wrote:

At 7/21/14 11:38 AM, Deshiel wrote:

I'm the frontpage defender!

what is the criteria for your subjectivity?

One does not need a high-tech studio quality to impress me, or to break throught my defenses. I <3 creativity, I like it when the music makes sense and everything goes hand in hand like a solved piece of a puzzle game (can't realy come up with better explanation). Frontpaged stuff should be only from the best that the audio community has to offer.

But when something too bland and boring gets there, I will strike. Maybe I'm just jealous :)

I only ask, because it could be some helpful criteria that would fit some underdog thing....I think that is more helpful that zero bombing someones work, regardless how it pleases you, or not. ;)

Cheers mang.

At 7/21/14 12:02 PM, Bad-Man-Incorporated wrote:

At 7/21/14 11:57 AM, Deshiel wrote:

At 7/21/14 11:44 AM, Bad-Man-Incorporated wrote:

At 7/21/14 11:38 AM, Deshiel wrote:

I'm the frontpage defender!

what is the criteria for your subjectivity?

One does not need a high-tech studio quality to impress me, or to break throught my defenses. I <3 creativity, I like it when the music makes sense and everything goes hand in hand like a solved piece of a puzzle game (can't realy come up with better explanation). Frontpaged stuff should be only from the best that the audio community has to offer.

But when something too bland and boring gets there, I will strike. Maybe I'm just jealous :)

I only ask, because it could be some helpful criteria that would fit some underdog thing....I think that is more helpful that zero bombing someones work, regardless how it pleases you, or not. ;)

Cheers mang.

My only concern was that first post guy's cry that some people appear and reappear on the best audio/ frontpage charts more often than the others and it imidiately struck me that whatever this project is, nice or not is fueled by ENVY & LUST and I'm actualy concerned about the possibility that in the end it would only end up in a scenario where the winner of the underdog comes up as a winner that will get a massive ego boost, he will think that he has a proof that hes actualy good, but the world would continuously push him down and he would be like... but I'm cool why is dis happening and those who lose will go home and be like very sad and lose the faith in themselves and some will quit music for good.

I've been only in like few NG contests, but I know that everyone gets on like your best buddy but once the thing starts they will try thier best to get ridd of you.

short version : People usualy end up hating each other and themselves.

At 7/21/14 12:12 PM, Deshiel wrote:

I've been only in like few NG contests, but I know that everyone gets on like your best buddy but once the thing starts they will try thier best to get ridd of you.

short version : People usualy end up hating each other and themselves.

That's a pretty dramatic version. I guess when the contests are in full swing, it can get pretty catty, for sure. Competitiveness can bring out the worst in people, as well as the best...

But If people are that shallow, their musicianship didn't mean anything in the first place or they don't take it as seriously as they could. Newgrounds definitely isn't the end all and be all for musicians. I've just always found it very helpful and do my best to return as much advice as I've received, to be a better musician.

The audio is shoved 2/3's down the FP. The only people that generally look are the other musicians. If they can make it passed the games and movies..haha..But I'm positive some decent thought goes into the audio FP....especially in the last few months. Been some great tunes there...

Either way, I guess I'm just gung ho to help people get more recognition. There are soo many great artists on Newgrounds, they are harder and harder to find, without sifting through mountains of gross stuff.

I was thinking this whole underdog thing could produce an easier way. :)

At 7/21/14 12:34 PM, Bad-Man-Incorporated wrote:

At 7/21/14 12:12 PM, Deshiel wrote:

I've been only in like few NG contests, but I know that everyone gets on like your best buddy but once the thing starts they will try thier best to get ridd of you.

short version : People usualy end up hating each other and themselves.

That's a pretty dramatic version. I guess when the contests are in full swing, it can get pretty catty, for sure. Competitiveness can bring out the worst in people, as well as the best...

But If people are that shallow, their musicianship didn't mean anything in the first place or they don't take it as seriously as they could. Newgrounds definitely isn't the end all and be all for musicians. I've just always found it very helpful and do my best to return as much advice as I've received, to be a better musician.

The audio is shoved 2/3's down the FP. The only people that generally look are the other musicians. If they can make it passed the games and movies..haha..But I'm positive some decent thought goes into the audio FP....especially in the last few months. Been some great tunes there...

Either way, I guess I'm just gung ho to help people get more recognition. There are soo many great artists on Newgrounds, they are harder and harder to find, without sifting through mountains of gross stuff.

I was thinking this whole underdog thing could produce an easier way. :)

If it can exctract the "hidden gems" from the rest of the mayonese then I will be mega happy to give it all my four thumbs :)

Good people were easy to find when the old design was up... That's how I discovered you anyway. If I didn't know you in that system, I would probably never know what a badass you are thanks to this one. :)

At 7/21/14 12:39 PM, Deshiel wrote:

If it can exctract the "hidden gems" from the rest of the mayonese then I will be mega happy to give it all my four thumbs :)

That's the ticket!

Good people were easy to find when the old design was up... That's how I discovered you anyway. If I didn't know you in that system, I would probably never know what a badass you are thanks to this one. :)

Cheers for that....i also whored the shit outta myself by reviewing other dudes music ALL the time.

At 7/21/14 01:09 PM, KatMaestro wrote:

At 7/21/14 11:38 AM, Deshiel wrote:
It's my last place to pick up truly outstanding music and I will zerobomb everything that doesn't belong there.

That's quite arrogant, don't you think? Different mods have different tastes in music. They may feature those who take different turns and styles in music. I have seen game music's remixes make on the frontpage. I don't like those game's remixes, but I don't criticize them or even zerobomb them. If they made it there then they deserved every right to be on there. To be well respected.

If you zerobomb the frontpage's music because you don't like something... Does that make you no different than the buttholes who zerobombs everyone on Weekly Best?

I think you are a very decent guy, and I really hope you're not serious.

I am heavy considering what I just said, but mainly if I described my point of view properly, without allusions to something that is not me and worse.

I wouldn't just zerobomb something that drops out of my taste. I never said that, read my posts properly. (You wouldn't be the first one to missunderstand me, I do that to)

I would zerobomb something that just doesn't belong there, something that sounds like this but somehow made it in.

• 

  By the Kidd-O

  by DESHIEL

  Deshiel feat. his nephew

  Song

  Techno

  1,016 Views

  PLAY

PS: I used my own track as an example of something that shouldn't be frontpaged, because I'm a cunning gangsta and I want to look cool and I know that you know and I don't give a bus! :)

At 7/19/14 03:51 AM, MetalRenard wrote: My track Chaos Confined got around 9k views from being on the front page. I like the idea of a underdog competition but if you do it, make sure it's before my 94 fan count becomes 100... :P

When the top weekly 5 autoplayed on the audio page, I only gained 5000k.

This year I've probably been there somewhere several times without even noticing.

At 7/21/14 04:48 PM, stratkat wrote:

At 7/19/14 03:51 AM, MetalRenard wrote: My track Chaos Confined got around 9k views from being on the front page. I like the idea of a underdog competition but if you do it, make sure it's before my 94 fan count becomes 100... :P

When the top weekly 5 autoplayed on the audio page, I only gained 5000k.

This year I've probably been there somewhere several times without even noticing.

Something from me that gets frontpaged would have 1k views, tops.

So um, that's kinda what I go through... like many others I'd get roundabout 600 views if a new piece is out.

A series of random thoughts:

- Ultimately, an underdog competition would be founded on subjective criteria.

- NG is a very accepting community. While my account is older, I only started being consistently active here around AIM 2014. I participated in AIM 2014, and while I didn't make it on either the winner or runner-up lists, I got a Lot out of it.

I got a lot of reviews and feedback on my submissions and music, made acquaintances, heard a LOT of amazing music, grew creatively and musically. A lot of people heard my music because of that contest, even though I wasn't close to a "winning" position (Hope I don't sound like I'm complaining; There was SO - MUCH Amazing music in AIM 2014.)

I got a lot more out of just participating than I would've imagined, really.
Which leads into my next random thought:

- Is winning even the point?

If the community is so engaging and interactive, and if the perks of participating vs. the perks of winning aren't all that radically different from each other, then winning isn't an as strong a focus anymore, is it?
(I mean sure, the scale of those perks is different, but... you get my point)

I'd LOVE to see more NG Audio Competitions. Not for the prospect of eventually winning one, but because participation alone holds a lot of value.

Speaking of which
A couple of folk were mentioning earlier in the thread (too lazy to open a new tab and check whom, lol) that there's no prizes to incentivize more NG contests.

- Are prizes that fundamental?

I mean, I'd assume more people enter competitions for recognition rather than credits or 50-100$ (Don't get me wrong, I don't want to sound ungrateful; a big thanks to everyone and anyone that's ever sponsored any of these competitions!)

My point being, if someone was to come with a solid idea for a themed contest with no prize other than "Winner's Fame", would it fail to gain steam?

Admittedly, in the large scheme of things I'm extremely new here, so maybe this has been attempted in the past unsuccessfully and I'm plain wrong and overly optimistic.

---

This concludes my monday night ramblings. Drive safe. And I'll be damned if I'll proof-read all that at 1:23AM.

I'd really enjoy the idea. If I were to host something like this, there probably wouldn't be prizes at all (I'm almost done with college and being almost broke a lot). It would probably have to be based off of audio play count per song or that and a combination of how many fans someone has in order to determine underdog status. It also doesn't have to be strictly one regulation either, we could have one contest with different ranks of underdogs (ex. the New Kids, Rookies, the Small-Timers, Professional Amateurs, just throwing out some fun names).
I was a bit disappointed when I starting posting music on last year, the only contest I've seen is the Art-Inspired-Music contest. Just having something to encourage more music making would be great. It's fun to have ideas like space, or nintendo, or thriller movie rip-offs.

That's my two cents

Had this idea for a while too :D. I think it would be good to have a contest for people that have a certain amount of fans and below or something like that. Some of the best artists on the site are teenagers, so I don't think it would work to go by age. A good chunk of the people in last years ngadm was in their trens.
Anyways, I think it would be a really good idea. I've discovered alot of great artists on the site lately that hardly gets any exposure at all. I've been trying to work out some ideas to help underdogs get more exposure, and I think it a contest would be great. I would love to join in on planning it. Also willing to throw in some potential prize money :).
-enochcity

Sorry I didn't respond to this sooner, guys. I've been busy.

@Etherealwinds That's a truly inspiring story. Thank you so much for sharing it.

@Bad-Man-Incorporated and @enochcity Thanks very much for the offers, guys! I might take you up on those after I get this thing started. I'll PM you.

I'd also like the thank @Step and @Chronamut for imparting their wisdom and experience to me.

Given some of the advice I've seen here from various individuals, I don't think the participants should have to post one track to "audition" with like they do in NGADM. How, exactly, to determine who gets in or not is still worthy of consideration. We'll be as inclusive as possible. I think the community has been given enough time to dwell on this, but the people who ultimately decide how to handle the "audition-like" process should be the judges.

As for the judges, I have an interesting preposition for how to determine them: they'll simply be the people who got the furthest in last year's NGADM (and, in future years, perhaps the Audio Underdogs Contest)! Obviously, this idea has some flaws: who's to say that all or even ANY of those individuals are interested in doing this? Well, it's worth a shot, I'd say. At least 2 of them have already posted in this thread. So...

@Johnfn
@Steampianist
@Etherealwinds
@Kor-Rune

Are you guys interested in judging this competition, perhaps along with myself?

If you don't respond within 24 hours, I'll PM you. After that, I'd say the process of selecting the judges should be completely voluntary and open to any valid and experienced member of the NG Audio Community. I just thought this would be an interesting and stable way of determining the judges, and many of the above individuals were underdogs themselves in last year's NGADM. ;D

I encourage you to continue sharing your thoughts about this competition, NGAC! Thanks for all the support! ^^

At 7/23/14 12:40 PM, TheDoor6 wrote:

Are you guys interested in judging this competition, perhaps along with myself?

Depending on when it is and how much time it would take up, I'd be up for it.

At 7/21/14 01:13 AM, Step wrote: Anyway, I know @SkyeWintrest is interested in organising another NGMT this winter, so there's that to look forward to.

Yep. Bit late, but yep. Part of the NGMT is also that all entries are made anonymous for the voting process where winners are chosen, so underdogs have a good advantage there. :)

At 7/23/14 01:28 PM, etherealwinds wrote:

At 7/23/14 12:40 PM, TheDoor6 wrote:

Are you guys interested in judging this competition, perhaps along with myself?

Depending on when it is and how much time it would take up, I'd be up for it.

Great, thanks! :D I was planning on starting the equivalent to the "audition" phase this Sunday, and the competition itself is probably going to be one-round style, and the winners will be determined from one piece. 2 weeks for the "audition" phase, two weeks for the competition, and it should be done by the end of August. Actually, if it's only one round...we may not even need an audition phase. Instead, we could just have the winners in 3 categories: Underdog (<100 fans), Professional Amateur (101-1,000 fans), or All-Stars (>1,000 fans). Idk, though...once we have the judge team assembled, we'll chat it up on Skype about the details. Are you in college, EW? If so, we'll make sure we're all done before you go back! Welcome to the team! ;D

~Andrew

@TheDoor6

Sure I got time

I'd be interested, but it'd have to not coincide with this year's NGADM. Also, if there were like a bajillion entries, I might be less interested hehe.

At 7/21/14 06:23 PM, LunyAlex wrote: A series of random thoughts:

- Ultimately, an underdog competition would be founded on subjective criteria.

As a less popular artist myself, I actually agree with the sentiments opposing this contest. Excluding more well-known artists probably wouldn't solve anything. But despite my agreeable stance, I do find one criticism particularly strange. Wouldn't auditioning for a competition and getting admitted based on someone else's view of "good music" be subjective criteria? Wouldn't getting judged for any sort of competition be subjective? don't mean to be malicious or anything, but ultimately any sort of criteria is subjective or arbitrary, isn't it? I mean, I could be wrong, but I was just thinking.

At 7/24/14 03:42 AM, Sundans wrote:

At 7/21/14 06:23 PM, LunyAlex wrote: A series of random thoughts:

- Ultimately, an underdog competition would be founded on subjective criteria.

As a less popular artist myself, I actually agree with the sentiments opposing this contest. Excluding more well-known artists probably wouldn't solve anything. But despite my agreeable stance, I do find one criticism particularly strange. Wouldn't auditioning for a competition and getting admitted based on someone else's view of "good music" be subjective criteria? Wouldn't getting judged for any sort of competition be subjective? don't mean to be malicious or anything, but ultimately any sort of criteria is subjective or arbitrary, isn't it? I mean, I could be wrong, but I was just thinking.

It would be subjective, yes, but still based on objective musical principles (yes, even atonality would be covered) -- the success of the piece will, in part, ride on how skilled a person is with what he knows or uses. And possibly even objective mixing principles, as is the case where the mix is blaring through the roof and needs to be toned down. Beyond that, it is subjective: the bulk of a person's piece will ride on how many highs and lows a person has managed to inspire.

At least, that's what I gather.....

A contest based on the number of fans alone will result in the same way that the NGADM does, to be honest. Number of fans =/= skill in music.

At 7/24/14 03:51 AM, Troisnyx wrote:

At 7/24/14 03:42 AM, Sundans wrote:

At 7/21/14 06:23 PM, LunyAlex wrote: A series of random thoughts:

- Ultimately, an underdog competition would be founded on subjective criteria.

As a less popular artist myself, I actually agree with the sentiments opposing this contest. Excluding more well-known artists probably wouldn't solve anything. But despite my agreeable stance, I do find one criticism particularly strange. Wouldn't auditioning for a competition and getting admitted based on someone else's view of "good music" be subjective criteria? Wouldn't getting judged for any sort of competition be subjective? don't mean to be malicious or anything, but ultimately any sort of criteria is subjective or arbitrary, isn't it? I mean, I could be wrong, but I was just thinking.

It would be subjective, yes, but still based on objective musical principles (yes, even atonality would be covered) -- the success of the piece will, in part, ride on how skilled a person is with what he knows or uses. And possibly even objective mixing principles, as is the case where the mix is blaring through the roof and needs to be toned down. Beyond that, it is subjective: the bulk of a person's piece will ride on how many highs and lows a person has managed to inspire.

At least, that's what I gather.....

A contest based on the number of fans alone will result in the same way that the NGADM does, to be honest. Number of fans =/= skill in music.

There are definitely objective elements to mixing and music theory, but it is ultimately subjective. Mixing is impacted by the listeners audio equipment just as much as it is the actual mixer's. Composition is dependent of genre preferences as well as the subjective definition of music itself. I just personally don't think that the subjectivity of admission would be an issue. It is the idea that any limit, from 10 fans to 100 fans, is entirely arbitrary.

And absolutely, popularity does not necessarily equate to skill.

At 7/24/14 03:42 AM, Sundans wrote:

At 7/21/14 06:23 PM, LunyAlex wrote: A series of random thoughts:

- Ultimately, an underdog competition would be founded on subjective criteria.

As a less popular artist myself, I actually agree with the sentiments opposing this contest. Excluding more well-known artists probably wouldn't solve anything. But despite my agreeable stance, I do find one criticism particularly strange. Wouldn't auditioning for a competition and getting admitted based on someone else's view of "good music" be subjective criteria? Wouldn't getting judged for any sort of competition be subjective? don't mean to be malicious or anything, but ultimately any sort of criteria is subjective or arbitrary, isn't it? I mean, I could be wrong, but I was just thinking.

What I meant to say by founded on subjective criteria is that the boundaries imposed for such a contest, be it number of fans or age are deemed to be a bit arbitrary no matter what.

If it gets settled on that you can't participate with more than 100 fans, is it technically fair for the guys with 101-110 fans that otherwise aren't any less underdog than the rest?

There's bound to be people outside the designated criteria that would be a good fit otherwise.

> Isn't well known or recognized
> Could totally use the rep boost
> Doesn't fit into criteria

Only way to avoid that is to make the criteria very loose, but then the point of the competition becomes invalidated.

At 7/24/14 04:57 AM, LunyAlex wrote:

At 7/24/14 03:42 AM, Sundans wrote:

At 7/21/14 06:23 PM, LunyAlex wrote: A series of random thoughts:

- Ultimately, an underdog competition would be founded on subjective criteria.

As a less popular artist myself, I actually agree with the sentiments opposing this contest. Excluding more well-known artists probably wouldn't solve anything. But despite my agreeable stance, I do find one criticism particularly strange. Wouldn't auditioning for a competition and getting admitted based on someone else's view of "good music" be subjective criteria? Wouldn't getting judged for any sort of competition be subjective? don't mean to be malicious or anything, but ultimately any sort of criteria is subjective or arbitrary, isn't it? I mean, I could be wrong, but I was just thinking.

What I meant to say by founded on subjective criteria is that the boundaries imposed for such a contest, be it number of fans or age are deemed to be a bit arbitrary no matter what.

If it gets settled on that you can't participate with more than 100 fans, is it technically fair for the guys with 101-110 fans that otherwise aren't any less underdog than the rest?

There's bound to be people outside the designated criteria that would be a good fit otherwise.

> Isn't well known or recognized
> Could totally use the rep boost
> Doesn't fit into criteria

Only way to avoid that is to make the criteria very loose, but then the point of the competition becomes invalidated.

I agree with you there in that the arbitrary attribution to the criteria is what makes the goal of such a competition impossible to achieve. I was simply confused as to how the subjectivity of said criteria is the specific quality that invalidated the competition.

But thanks for clearing up your point -- I appreciate it.

At 7/18/14 10:03 PM, TheDoor6 wrote: hi

To avoid discrimination against the 'elite' like Step and Echo (lolololololoLOL), maybe the fan limit should be moved up to 200, yeah?