At 5/13/09 09:33 PM, LK412 wrote:

At 5/13/09 12:15 PM, Slipstreamer wrote: Heres an idea;

Leave a long and helpful review on other peoples work

Funny, i never get those from you, only half assed reviews that don't help me for shit.

Hey now.

I checked some of Slipstreamer's reviews and a lot of them were detailed and informed. Granted, he may not have left YOU a great review, but at least he's got the generally right idea.

At 5/13/09 11:36 PM, nal1200 wrote:

At 5/13/09 09:33 PM, LK412 wrote:

At 5/13/09 12:15 PM, Slipstreamer wrote: Heres an idea;

Leave a long and helpful review on other peoples work

Funny, i never get those from you, only half assed reviews that don't help me for shit.

Hey now.

I checked some of Slipstreamer's reviews and a lot of them were detailed and informed. Granted, he may not have left YOU a great review, but at least he's got the generally right idea.

Lol hes left me like 4 reviews all of them saying he is too lazy to critique and that it really needs improvement. Why bother reviewing if he doesnt even tell me whats wrong.

0 bombing is up and reviews are down. I know it sucks, thank Tom for adding money to the equation.

Does anyone have any ideas now about it? I have a few of my own, but I'll wait until tomorrow to type them out.

The only way I can see of fixing the rating system is to break it. Right now, the admins are either too lazy or in deniel that there's anything wrong. If there were more zerobombers then maybe someone higher up would actually take notice. I mean, right now it's not a huge problem, but if we made it one then they would be forced to fix it.

The only other way is for audio artists to start zerobombing flash work. If anything happens to the flash portal you know they're going to take notice. It's their "favorite son".

But I doubt there would be enough people doing it to actually make people take notice.

At 5/24/09 01:14 PM, BlazePyron wrote:

The only other way is for audio artists to start zerobombing flash work. If anything happens to the flash portal you know they're going to take notice. It's their "favorite son".

careful, wouldn't want mods to think you're making a threat, not saying you are but the way it was worded makes it sound a little sketch

I personally think reviews should be required with votes. Not scores. Votes.

Unfortunately we won't see a change and why would I? The guy who gave me a zero could be a complete ass and now I would have to look at that review with my submission. Seriously, people could then just review "Your music sucks ass, honestly you should stop trying." Who the hell would want to look at something like that everyday? Even if the review does get removed, it doesn't change the fact that you got a zero.

At 5/24/09 01:23 PM, vanguard182 wrote:

At 5/24/09 01:14 PM, BlazePyron wrote:

The only other way is for audio artists to start zerobombing flash work. If anything happens to the flash portal you know they're going to take notice. It's their "favorite son".

careful, wouldn't want mods to think you're making a threat, not saying you are but the way it was worded makes it sound a little sketch

Tom once posted that they watch the Flash Portal carefully and can easily spot out ppl who are zero-voting EVERY submission. He also said that you're experience might drop to zero then.

woah, bad typo...I meant "your experience" .... sorry. It's late, I'm tired =D.

What we need are some incentives of some kind for helpful reviews. Something that is NOT money (which seems to have caused the problem in the first place, judging by the sounds of it).

How about experience points? You get points for rating flash movies and games on the Flash Portal. How about allowing artists to award a certain number of points per day to *useful* reviewers? Then, if someone listens to my music and leaves a helpful review, I can give that user 15 Exp Points or something. Not a lot (giving 500 points to someone for a review would lead to abuse of the system), but enough to make it worthwhile you actually reviewing something.

Another idea would be allowing artists (and AP mods) to see who voted on their song and what rating they gave it. Then, you can instantly find the zero-bombers on the forum and maybe block them from viewing anything you upload or something like that?

They wouldn't do that because that would actually make the AP half-way efficient.

Joking aside, the second one would be abused, in that some hack of an audio artist would find the people who rate stuff three's or two's (yes, they HAVE to exist, I am sure of it) and bother them "y did'nt u raet my song a 5 ??? : ( "

I like the experience idea, though.

Not taking the whole thing as in-depth as some people (and I'll admit to being one of those people who just 'suggest' barely thought out ideas) but the one thing that came to mind regarding the issue was a system where voting, say, 0-1-2 would make it a requirement to post a 'reasons why' beit through the review or whatnot.

This wouldn't stop 0-bombing or downrating in general, but it may put-off the type of people who just want to click a 0 and move on without interruption... May or may not fix much but it might throw the lazy voters off if they realise there's suddently a requirement for voting an extreme end of the voting spectrum (Again, I re-state, this hasn't been thought out and has either a) been suggested already or b) could quite possibly be a useless idea /shrug)

Personally I don't see why people wouldn't ask why that shouldn't apply to voting 'anything' as, like people already know, folks are quite capable of insta-pressing '5' vote daily on their own work, too.

I kept a check on my own song today (was released a day or two ago) and at one point it had leapt from 5.00>3.00>4.80>3.80>4.00 and I'm sure it'll keep spirally to the extreme, one way or another, until there's too many votes for low-end voters with no vote-power being able to push the vote anymore than 0.1 in which case you'll have the happy medium, whatever it may be (2/3/4) and thats ultimately where it'll generally rest without excessive votes.

Would it be right for me to religiously spam '5' on a daily basis, knowing there's probably some sad-sack out there doing the same with '0' anyway? I'd like to think I wouldn't have to as I don't like the ideo of self-voting anyway as it defeats the entire purpose of votes, and thats to get an outside view of how your work is generally percieved, though in the state it's in, this is impossible anyway.

Review wise, again, not many people are inclined to take the time to review things and the large majority I see on people work are either cringe-worthy one-liners "OMG LOEVSD IT MAEK MORE :D :D :> ^^" and the occasional long, constructive review that some dolts out there click as a 'Useless Review'.

Honestly, as someone relatively new to the audio side of NG I haven't a foggy notion of what could possibly contribute to helping with this, other than maybe taking some more time to give constructive reviews to the work I enjoy on NG and hope it makes a good example for the others who read it and encourage less hate and negativity but, hey, we know nothing like that will ever stop people who can freely zero-bomb everything in their attempt to mould/pave their way to the 'top' charts or simply because 'they can' and the same applies to self-voting.

/shrug

It's nice to at least have a discussion thread for the matter, however and who knows, maybe something will become of it ^^

At 7/6/09 03:56 PM, MkieNedachi wrote: What about limited votes?
have like 20 votes per 9 hours?

I think that would work perfectly!

Anyone else agree?

What about the songs that are on the top lists? I'm sure that more than 20 people would like to have their vote in 9 hours.
Please think some things over before suggesting things..

At 6/30/09 11:20 PM, benyue1978 wrote: People nailed it when they said NG doesn't make any money from the Audio Portal. That is why you will never see any more improvements. Why pump money or resources into something that doesn't give you a monetary return? Tom, Wade and the others don't make ANY money, PERIOD, from the AP. So stop your whining and bitching about everything that is wrong with it, because it'll NEVER get any better. EVER. EVER. I repeat. Stop whining and bitching about the AP being sucky. NO ONE AT NG ACTUALLY CARES ABOUT IT. It's treated like a free library of music that they can exploit.

End rant.

P.S. I really mean it. Stop whining about the AP. It's about to get worse.

Exactly, the only care ng has for it is the flash portal that it supplements (with sounds). There may be a select amount of audio mods that do care for the portal but they alone dont have enough influence to fix things.

Get rid of the voting system and make reviews the primary factors of scores. Jesus, it's so simple.

Not only will this get rid of the zeroing problem, but it will also better incorporate whistle-blowing.

Besides, do you actually KNOW anyone who doesn't have an account that makes an effort to vote on things? It's really pointless.

Get rid of votes.

idon mind those votes but ofcourse if i vote 0 i serious tell why beacuse 0 means for me really pain song, Like my ears start bleeding so bad or someone make opera singer sings really false that window about break :). Most 0 voters are just pass by and vote 0.

i zero vote as much as possible

At 8/9/09 10:32 PM, Glib wrote: i zero vote as much as possible

what a rebel

At 8/9/09 10:32 PM, Glib wrote: i zero vote as much as possible

I zero vote my own tracks sometimes to make myself lol on the inside.

Excuse me all. Why is it that audio traffic these days have changed wind. I mean, if you check out all my 2006 music even some of my not so good tracks have at least like 50 downloads and like 200+ views but now in 2009, some of my hot hot tracks dont even have up to 10 downloads and barely 100 views. Even, all my 2006 stuff has a higer ratio of 'responsible' reviews. Yes, you might say that it took three years for my 2006 music to become like that (2009-2006 = 3 years), but if you look closely at the relation b/w the traffic of the two years it dont really add up like that. I mean, yes it takes time but just look at some of my 2009 stuff that i submitted since january or february like 'My Savior', only like 51 views and 2 downloads but i know for a fact that it's way better than my 2006 stuff. So, please fellow artists, what is the meaning of all this. Thank you.

P.S. This aint no advertisement.

At 7/7/09 01:30 AM, nal1200 wrote: Get rid of the voting system and make reviews the primary factors of scores. Jesus, it's so simple.

Not only will this get rid of the zeroing problem, but it will also better incorporate whistle-blowing.

Besides, do you actually KNOW anyone who doesn't have an account that makes an effort to vote on things? It's really pointless.

Get rid of votes.

I agree on this. Newgrounds is dumb if keeps on going with the way it is heading. :P

First off getting rid of votes would completely trash the system newgrounds bots use. Second, this website is filled with biased little jealous 12-13 year old kids who only vote and review on how good the song is to their opinion. The people here never look at how it was made or think about how it can be better. Only a few good trustworthy artists and reviewers do. But nonetheless, reviews and scores are always a plus side on the artists side if they make a really good song, or are popular.

At 8/12/09 03:43 PM, Meonly70 wrote: First off getting rid of votes would completely trash the system newgrounds bots use. Second, this website is filled with biased little jealous 12-13 year old kids who only vote and review on how good the song is to their opinion. The people here never look at how it was made or think about how it can be better. Only a few good trustworthy artists and reviewers do. But nonetheless, reviews and scores are always a plus side on the artists side if they make a really good song, or are popular.

I understand what you are saying but it shouldnt always matter how it was made. People shouldn't be swaded by means of software and hardware someone owns for the means of creation. A 12/13yr old is entitled to an opinion as much as a 35 year old, kids come out with a direct opinion. They don't butter it up, a raw review from someone like that is just as important IMO. The scores would still work if the random voting was taken away and it was dependant on the reviewers scores.

:)

At 8/14/09 04:51 PM, loansindi wrote:

At 8/14/09 04:46 PM, Calamaistr wrote: What advertisement? Do i earn anything from doing this? I think on the contrary i have a much larger chance of being completely 'zero bombed' as you people call it just for this post. But why should i care, im only asking for a bit of empathy.

Coming into the forums and disregarding the rules to post a thread about how great of a composer you are and how it's not fair that your tracks are voted so low, and then linking one of your tracks, one of those actions is an advertisement.

-

this topic is not about my skill as a composer, but my background has the right to weigh in on the topic wich is actually about defining intellectual music, as in music that has thought to it preferably based on the divine measure as music is far more than just something that can sound good, there is a whole fractal logic behind it that can even draw architectural design (see the rosslyn motet).
But ok appart from that its also about what i have noticed, that it seems that classical works are no longer apreciated, and i want to be proven wrong in that thought and see if there are actually people here that agree, and also make music that way instead of just looking for a repetitive pattern resembling pacobell with a few default drums that because of the fl quality allows people to wave their limbs to the left and right without them having the feeling it looks stupid wich it would if there were no sound.

And to the mod who locked my topic, you couldve just removed the part in wich i asked to listen to my track and tell me if it was worth voting low on didnt you, instead you misinterpeted the whole topic or are just a child that does in no way care about actual music pick one. For the topic i dont care, but i still want my discussion to carry on so im going to put my complete OP without the request below:

Look, i can understand that there is an expectation with all the people using fruity loops nowadays concerning sound quality, im not here to contest anything about that, but where i come from music is about the composition, not about the sharp pitch and the loud drums, i know it is in todays club culture where people dont really care about the melodical math and just want something to move their genitals on, not contesting anything there either (appart from that i personally stay away from that as much as i can.)

Im from a classical and oldschool world in wich quality was a luxioury for studios and you had to make something complicated to get some ears, and i still make music that way even though i now have fruity loops ive been noticing about myself i dont like working with it as much as i like playing an actual piano or using older programs that to me are much user-friendlier if you are of the kind that dont want to mix and scratch things but put together everything yourself. I know that the options in fl are many but its just not for me.

Ive tried, and i still try, and will probably keep trying to make my old tracks in fl with better quality instruments.. still.. the more i think about it the more of a chore it seems, the more of a obstacle it becomes, i dont want to end up in a league see, ive always had my own style and my own sound.

So now having done this short about the why let me come to what i want to say:

Voting low on my new fl work i dont mind, ive just began working with fl anyway but how the hell is it possible that one of my best older works is voted down.. its gravely insulting. But instead of taking this to personal it has made me think less about NG as a place for my music. I also noticed how popular hiphop oriented pulp is here, i also noticed how amateuristic compositions with a decent percussion glued under it seem to do well in the charts, so even though i only had a few votes yet on my work it tells me enough.

Im not here to go apeshit and tell everyone how good i am, i have my flaws but music is a natural thing for me. I am a natural music creator, a natural composer and i have been this for years, i have had many recognitions and even music teachers being intrigued by my work.. So this here.. is like im making a beautiful painting in a monkey den and the monkeys end up ripping the painting appart. Its a complete lack of musical intellect, im sure there are more composers who have experienced this because there really are good tracks on NG but just as many bs track with high ratings.

Its a shame enough i can only upload 2 tracks a day because i have over 500 pieces in total, with about 40 of them on my pc and the rest safe on cards.

I know some of you will use this post as a trigger to ruin my musics score even more but go right ahead its not like you will make it any worse than it already is, i already know that this place probably isnt the right place for my music, beats me why i keep uploading.

Overall my logic tells me that im a bit jumpy perhaps, afterall the track has only rested on NG for a single day and i already feel it as an insult seeing its score, and i know topics like these have been posted before wich didnt end well but i dont care about that. I just want to know if there is any reason for me to continue uploading my work, if there are atleast 10 people out there that actually apreciate it.
Because that would be enough for me.

Yes well. its from a period of game music and i used music® as a program (not on pc, on console) and have done so for years. I make every single sound myself, admitted from existing sounds but i always edit those into something else, such as making a custom type of rhode bells from flutes etc.
The only drawback is that when i convert music to my pc, there is both a quality reduction from the tulp-cable and the worst being it converts to mono wich is only again converted back into stereo trough audacity. So all in all i end up with a lack of surround effects ive used in several tracks (in fact i need to edit certain songs putting all the music on R-out to keep it from actually recording certain notes) and an annoying static. But its the price of an easy personally friendly method. At least it has been up till now that i have FL.

Every time i think about putting some percussion together i emediately get a sense of 'blergh' inside me, i just cant bring myself to use different rolls for every individual sound that i then have to filter with effects to make echos etc, im completely used to do literally everything myself, every effect you hear in my old music, i did personally with for instance individually placed notes that i individually tuned down volume wise see. Thats such a giant difference with programs like fl.

Today there are programs that make stuff echo, and there are samples that contain certain effects on their own. It all seems so extremely robotic while i always had so much pride in getting the same things done with my own hands, im almost afraid people cannot recognise such as something someone would actually do himself anymore or emediately wonder why someone would do that in the first place when you can just use a tool.

Hm.. ill always keep making classical and oldschool works, for instance the bit music from megaman, now that was good gamemusic, you can put as much orchestral strings and d&b kicks into a track it will never top a mathematical perfected melody. Even if people who think that way are getting few im afraid...

At 8/14/09 05:08 PM, Calamaistr wrote: WALL OF TEXT

Look dude, SBB was right to lock the thread. In the end you're just complaining about people voting low.

You can say 'i come from here or there or over that way' all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that people are free to vote however they please.

At 8/14/09 05:08 PM, Calamaistr wrote: And to the mod who locked my topic, you couldve just removed the part in wich i asked to listen to my track and tell me if it was worth voting low on didnt you, instead you misinterpeted the whole topic or are just a child that does in no way care about actual music pick one. For the topic i dont care, but i still want my discussion to carry on so im going to put my complete OP without the request below:

I can't edit posts, so no, you're wrong. By all means feel free to make a topic about your little "actual music" idea, as long as you keep it on that topic and don't boast yourself or whine about getting low votes.

At 8/14/09 05:12 PM, loansindi wrote:

At 8/14/09 05:08 PM, Calamaistr wrote: TL;DR

Look dude, SBB was right to lock the thread. In the end you're just complaining about people voting low.

You can say 'i come from here or there or over that way' all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that people are free to vote however they please.

Exactly, it doesn't matter WHO YOU ARE, or WHAT YOU KNOW, it's WHAT YOU'RE PUTTING ON THE SITE. If you put up shit, it doesn't matter, it'll get a bad score. Tiesto, ParagonX9, you, me....it doesn't matter who you are, it'll get zero'd if it sucks. Suck it up.

Well it DOESNT suck, because if it did then it wouldnt all sound right now would it.
I can point out even popular music (from the television yes) that outright sucks but gets sold a hundred fold, why does it suck? Why is it 'bad' music? It has good quality soundwise sure but the composition is predictable, repetitive and simplistic. My discussion was about the definition of music and how i think that music is something to be respected when done right but today apparently that is not the way music is viewed, its now handled like something that is right for aslong you can wave your reproductive organs around on its beat.

Stop acting like its about me, the only part about me is me being insulted that mathematical music of the kind i too make is looked down upon. From what i said about me not caring if the score on my music dropped even lower should be enough proof it isnt about me as a composer but about composing itself.

And im all in my right posting here now, its not like i want to drag anything on i was referred to go here because someone locked my topic, an actual 'moderator' would have pmed me asking me like an adult to remove the link, that wouldve been fine by me.

At 8/14/09 05:24 PM, Calamaistr wrote:

Stop acting like its about me

If it's not about you, then why do you care so much?
Stop clogging up this thread, it's for giving people much-needed exposure to their songs, not for ranting. Go make a newspost if you're so passionate about your opinions.

Best of luck with your next submission.

At 8/14/09 05:24 PM, Calamaistr wrote: My discussion was about the definition of music and how i think that music is something to be respected when done right but today apparently that is not the way music is viewed, its now handled like something that is right for aslong you can wave your reproductive organs around on its beat.

See my above post, I rest my case...