This must be said! ::State of NG::

[ArtTerrorismTactics]

Hello fellow NG users.
I must address something. First let me say that I am relatively new to NG, I have been here for a couple of months and am only like level 6 or 7 I think. Anyway. I prodominately vote straight from the portal. I feel, for some reason, that this is the noble thing to do, that way new submitions get just as much attention as the classics. I go through the vaults when I have time, but most of my voting goes to the portal. So tonight I decided to kick back and watch the all time top 10 or 15 entries on NG. And my response was:

What the hell is going on around here?

Don't get me wrong, there is some good stuff in there. And really all of the entries on the All Time best list are quality entries. But my God! Most of the top ones are mediocre at best! And the best ones are at the bottom of the list. The traits that seem to be the most common in the top entries are:
1.excessive violence meets thin to nonexsistant storyline
2.rip off of Japanese crap that sucked in the first place
3.pieces that LOOK pretty good but there is no animation going on-just pretty images being tweened around
4. blatant rip offs of previously successful flash (happy tree friends ring a bell?)

What's the deal? I am starting to think that Newgrounds.com has an average user age of 12! (Damnit, I used to hate when people talked bad about kids for being young - sorry guys). But seriously. I think for the users who take NG seriously and want to see it last forever, we need to start being responsible with our votes! More serious users need to really try to keep the integrity of this site, or else more and more people are going to log on to NG day after day, and then one day get sick of all the amatuer clone stuff and decide to longer be part of the site. And its harder to attract new users when all the good animations seem to slip away. I think that artists like Synj, Future Animators of the Future and X@vier should be worshipped like gods on NG. How long do you think Synj is going to keep cranking out bad ass cartoons and putting them on NG if he is constantely counted no more valid than StickFigureDBZHondaCrapMassacre Episode 2? I mean damn! Some of these guys have real animation skills! And I know, I am currently working on an animation degree! I am also recently learning Flash myself (that is why I joined this site), so I know how hard it can be to create a quality work of art.

Ok. ok. I realize that NG is a great place for EVERYONE regardless of skill level to share their art and expressions. Thank God (or is it Tom Fulp?). I am in no way disputing whether amatuer entries should be on NG or displayed in the permanent vaults. But we don't have to CELEBRATE mediocrity either. And no, this is not a letter to "the establishment" whining that I want to see change according to my will, it is an open letter to all persons of any age who take this site seriously and want to maintain its respected name and integrity. Lets raise the bar. Take responsibility in your voting. Remember that voting a 5 means PERFECT. How often do you see a perfect entry? No more of this this "hey cool, 5" and "lame, 0" crap. If an entry was good and made you laugh, give it a high score. But think twice before you give it a five. That's how we got all these so-so entries ranked so high, and you can't tell the good stuff from the "kind of cool" stuff just by the score! What if you made an absolutely badass entry that you put hundreds of hours into and it ranked just so-so because 100,000 kids off handedly clicked five on some stick figure massacre crap because they liked that 40 stick figures got beheaded?

Anyway sorry for rambling but I hope everyone thinks about this!

[HeinousDude]

well the bad one's are going to get blammed so by the time the movies get old enough to be at the bottom of the 50 most recent only the good ones will remain, so all the bad ones you see will be toward the top.

If you want to see a good one, check this one out.

[Pantherstrider]

Dude you are speaking my mind exactly. first of all who here thinks "Crono vs Everyone" should be ranked higher than Xiao Xiao 3? or Domo-Kun or in the top 50 period? It FUCKING MADDENING to see all these goddamn Chrono trigger fans vote up a half decent sprite cartoon. 80% of sprite cartoons are laughable abominations. You NEVER have to make your own graphics or animation yet still so many people to seem scew it up. its simply mind boggling. someone already did all the work for them and they still fuck it up. on the other hand Xiao Xiao 3 was very original and maybe even revolutionary. Who took stick figures seriously before Zhu whipped together the most bad ass kung fu cartoon? Indeed we all know that there is a lot of incredible stuff here. The newbie is right we are sloppy with our votes. We have an extreme contrast with standards. Not everyone can agree on the same thing and everyone will veiw the same thing differently. We'll all be fans to select artists. We'll all be biased towards one thing or another. myself for example will immediately vote 0 on anything remotely DBZ. All that says to me is that they can't come up with their own ideas and are going to use the fan boys to make a fraud rep at a highly trafficked site for whatever reason. And all the low-life theives out there that steal flash from other sites, wtf?! Poxpower's theory can't help me anymore because the crap one day will get stacked so high amongst the others that are considered legend. Vanishing from the portal doesn't last anymore cuz the crap lives on in the top 50. Thats my angry miniscue 2-cents. Let the flaming begin.

[Mojimbo]

At 4/22/03 12:50 AM, HeinousDude wrote: well the bad one's are going to get blammed so by the time the movies get old enough to be at the bottom of the 50 most recent only the good ones will remain, so all the bad ones you see will be toward the top.

If you want to see a good one, check this one out.

holy crap, you made that movie?? i love that movie, its sooooo funny

[Hallowed-Sin]

Not all the bad ones get blammed, there are a few that get through. I have no clue how it happens but I've seen it.

I agree with the feeling that it seems the average age of the voters is 12. I've mentioned that to a few friends of mine here that visit NG, many told me to post something about it. Looks like I was beaten to it.

From my experience it seems that anything with DBZ (the horrid show that it is.) Seems to nearly always pass through, no matter how bad it is. It's sickening. Along with the over used DBZ is the over used Linkin Park soundtrack. I'm not saying I dislike Linkin Park, I actually like their stuff. However, how many movies can you watch with the same music for the soundtrack? How many times can you hear Points of Authority/Papercut/Somewhere I Belong or any of their other songs?

Ultimately we can lower the influx of crap, sure, but we can't stop it entirely. There are are number of voters who will blam good stuff as there are who will save bad stuff. I've read a bunch of reviews and half the time it seems people don't even know what they are talking about when they give negative reviews. I myself may be guilty of that, I wouldn't know however as I find it difficult to judge my own knowledge.

Okay, I'm done ranting.

[ArtTerrorismTactics]

At 4/22/03 01:12 AM, Dark00Stir-fry wrote: Thats my angry miniscue 2-cents. Let the flaming begin.

Thanks for actually listening to what I had to say. I knew I wasn't the only one who felt this way.

P.S.
Heinous Dude- That was pretty cool.

[poxpower]

Well, here's a little graph that should explain a lot to you!

[TheShrike]

The thing I hate most are those damn idiots who import an mpg or wmv they didn't even make into flash, then slap a NG preloader on it and call it hard work.

[Hallowed-Sin]

Is it animation, style, storyline, their sense of humor, or were they just hit on the head to many times?

Okay I posted earlier but after that I started thinking. What the hell is with this crap that keeps showing up? We got a mix of people who can't get the animation down right. Okay, so that can be difficult using flash. I haven't used that but I've used After Affects, Final Cut Pro, Adobe ImageReady, Maya 4.5, and CosmoWorlds and I could figure out how to use those animation programs within a minutes if not after a few days of working on them. So does that mean these people haven't worked long on their stuff? I've seen a few flash movies here at NG about that whole thing. Take time to work on the stuff. But it seems people either don't listen or just lack the skill.

As for style, people seem to be a bit too wrapped up in DBZ, horrid hollywood trash, and things musical that I won't get into here. It was said in an above post that people use DBZ for fan boy votes and crap like that. Yeah, they do. But I don't think they personally are aiming for that, I think they really think DBZ is cool. That fact alone is sad. Why, though, is there such a high influx of this kind of crap?

Storyline is a touchy thing. Okay, not everyone is a master storyteller. So can you truely hold that against people? In truth, yes, you can. Storyline is part of the experience. If there are great graphics but the storyline doesn't even exist then what the hell is the point? Yeah, hollywood does it, hell shit loads of people go to see those movies then tell me how great they are. WHAT THE HELL!? What is wrong with the mentality of the people today?

Sense of humor is basically an opinion. I think some stuff is funny other people don't think it's funny. Who's to say which of us is correct. So we can't hold that against anyone, unlike with storyline and style. It's more on the line of animation. People can work on their sense of humor, but it just might fail on them.

So maybe the people voting on the crap were hit in the head to often, maybe those submitting the crap were. Who knows?

We live in times where shit like Austin Powers is considered funny, where movies like the Matrix are given nearly divine status, and where stuff that actually is good in all qualities and has some effort put into it are thrown to the side and ignored. If you want to start voting on things fairly and want to start helping to get rid of the trash then it's time to set ground rules. I'm not giving any to anyone. Why? Because I'm not going to tell people how to think about artwork. Think it over, set a standard and then stick to that standard. Maybe if we all do that things will start looking better.

[Hallowed-Sin]

At 4/22/03 01:36 AM, TheShrike wrote: The thing I hate most are those damn idiots who import an mpg or wmv they didn't even make into flash, then slap a NG preloader on it and call it hard work.

Stolen animation, video montages and the like seem to be a basis here on NG. Hell, the artistic world is well known for stealing shit. Throughout my four years here at college most of my art professors in the computer art field even told me that if I can get my work done faster by stealing, do it. Does this make it right? Hell no. I've never stole anything that wasn't just coding. Why? Coding is a bit different than imagry, if I can't figure out how to make something work but someone else has, why not use what they did and plug it into my work. Note: I said plut it into my work, not use it as my work. What I'm talking about is doing most of the programming and using other people's work for small bits. This goes for artwork too. People, make the damn pieces YOUR OWN WORK! Hell, even Andy Worhol (The big fuck that he was) used his own work in... well some of his stuff. The further you go with him the more it's his "Factory" producing ideas he had. Still, he didn't steal the stuff, just had others make it for him.

But yeah, enough ranting my fingers are getting tired.

TheStriker, you have a really good point there. And being a Video Artist, I know video montages like what they make aren't hard work, they take 10 seconds.

[Inglis]

Im not a fan of these sprite animations myself, but just becase they are sprites, doesnt mean it didnt take work to put them together.

You can go 1 of 2 ways when you are trying to make a great flash movie

1.Amazing, smooth animation with hardly if any character detail(ex Xiao Xaio)

2.Amazing detail in characters, with hardly if any animation (ex Vampire Hunter NIA)

But those are the 2 extremes...But for somone to combine Amazing animation with Amazing caracter detail is just insane, and would take years to make. Hardy anyone has the patiance to do that, so the great movies get stuck with one of either 2 extremes

[TheMDude]

People should not come to an ameteur site expecting professional work, that they shouldn't.

[rangi]

Stop posting that pic hallowed_sin for the love of god.

[fourchinnigan]

Well, the fact of the matter is the younger people have more free time and interest in spending lots of time here. Thus, they are a large factor in deciding what attains what status. It is the same in American society. Because we live in a capitalist world, the people with expendable income determine what is popular. The people with the most expendable income are pre-teens and teens. Thus, Britney Spears controls our economy and our view of art in general. Woohoo.

[ArtTerrorismTactics]

At 4/22/03 04:43 AM, fourchinnigan wrote: Thus, Britney Spears controls our economy and our view of art in general. Woohoo.

I agree with most of what you said. But Britney Spears having a few platinum records and Ms. Spears having the ability to "control our economy and view of art in general" are two different things. No one can control my view of art in general, except to a small degree the artists I follow. And only Allan Greenspan controls my economy!
USA!
USA!

[AngryArab]

my school has a flash course, im taking it next year, you just cant get flash 5 and be the best at it.

[fourchinnigan]

At 4/22/03 02:21 PM, ArtTerrorismTactics wrote: I agree with most of what you said. But Britney Spears having a few platinum records and Ms. Spears having the ability to "control our economy and view of art in general" are two different things.

What I mean by that is:
Her music caters to the demographic with the most expendable income. Thus, her popularity runs very high which gives her business power. It also means other businesses will attempt to imitate her in hopes of mimicking her success. The advertisers will shovel truckloads of money into the economy to promote Britney and her look-a-likes which will affect the attitudes of the youth who will once again shape the economy and what receives widespread recognition.

[T0MMY]

ArtTerrorismTactics, you're one of the good animators on Newgrounds, I can just tell.
There have been some great posts here, I'm glad to read what some true artists have to say about the work in Newgrounds.
It's true, you can't come here expecting professional stuff. What's so bad is that complete crap is driving down great INDEPENDENT work. I see a lot of hard work put into animations here and the audience just isn't responding to it as well as if someone put up a simple Final Fantasy sprite cartoon.
You say you're working on an animation degree? (You're lucky my school didn't offer that. I'm stuck as Fine Arts taking animation classes). Please drop by and watch a few of my animations and leave a review, I'd like to get your view on my work.

-T0MMY

[fourchinnigan]

Don't feel bad, Tommy. Almost everything I know about animation I've had to learn on my own :)

[TthevoiceE]

well, Check out my profile, a few good flashes in there, some just suk, and have no clue why they r on my list lol...i personally thing madness redemer and combat are good despite no color...

[TthevoiceE]

i just looked at my profile and noticed over half of those movies in it arnt even that good...lol Qi is awsome though...serious flash

[alexsmolik]

At 4/23/03 02:37 AM, fourchinnigan wrote: Don't feel bad, Tommy. Almost everything I know about animation I've had to learn on my own :)

Learning alone is one of the most cool and "beautiful" things in life.
It gives you such a way of cool-being.
When you finally learn to do it the right way, you have that prouf feeling inside you telling you how cool and 1337 you are by making it...
I love learning alone.
But there are things you can't learn alone.
Everything related to computers, I learned it myself.
How ? Reading, practicing, listening, tchatting...
Cool uh ? :-)

Why am I saying that ?

[DanPaladin]

good post, man. thanks for the kudos. It's disheartening sometimes to see your own work sink lower, and lower, and lower. To add insult to injury you investigate just which submissions are pounding your own's head in and find some of them horrible.

it's quite interesting now that I give it more thought. Are there any submissions that actually have a score that RISES over time? Almost seems like there's little termites nibbling on all the submissions :)

[ZombieLennon]

I'm fed up with all the 8-bit movies ranked so high up there. I mean, it's laughable to compare HoCT to 8-bit theatre 2 whatever.

[Dowg]

At 4/24/03 09:03 PM, synj wrote: (alot of stuff posted here)

Holy crap man, you made a topic good enough to be posted in by Synj! anyways, yeah, I hate how there are 13 yr old kids who make 5.2 kb 'movies' who go around voting 0 on all the good submissions because their shit got blammed, I somewhat agree with you, but alot of the top 15 have some of the best graphics that have ever graced NG, and alot have good storylines and are funny as fuck, like the LOTR movies, those are fucking hilarious and have great graphics, well, I gotta take a piss before my bladder explodes, outtie