Japanese music theory, And how can one achieve it?

[DerangedKnite]

Ever listened to an anime opening/Or a video game soundtrack...Your you just so happen to be a fan of jpop/jrock or you listened to city pop, So and so fourth.

Don't you theres a whole weird difference in music when it comes to japanese music? Harmony and everything seem much more unique, Its as if it uses a different version of the theory when it comes to the usual theory.

I was always interested in this, Listening to dragon quest's soundtrack, you can feel there is this theme or tune that most japanese music have, Or an anime opening like naruto's opening, Or any jrock song from a musician like HYDE or bands like x japan or luna sea.

They all have a much more different harmony and notes with that of western music, I wonder how can a thing like that be achieved? Been practicing on my keyboard (Or piano...:/) And I wanna achieve that type of harmony and tone most japanese music form

The only time I have seen it be used by western musicians, Is through an obscure genre of digital fusion which is why I love it, I really I wanna achieve that.

So is there like a whole music theory for this in the first place? And how can one achieve it?

Bonus:Been meaning to wonder if any other western musician managed to make music similar to one that japan does

[Czyszy]

My tip: use jazz fusion elements, like syncopated rhythmic stabs and altered chords.

EDIT:

As for Japanese sounding Western stuff. This one does it. Skip the rather conventional intro. After that, it gets really anime/city pop

[DerangedKnite]

At 9/13/23 02:24 PM, CzySzy wrote: My tip: use jazz fusion elements, like syncopated rhythmic stabs and altered chords.
EDIT:
As for Japanese sounding Western stuff. This one does it. Skip the rather conventional intro. After that, it gets really anime/city pop

Aaah Jazz fusion, Yeah I can tell it has similar elements, I'll keep that on my list, Also not bad! Its pretty close with what you posted!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUqs_g2-04c

(Don't ask me why its a link the embed was taking ages)

Was going to go for something like this too

[Czyszy]

Also, there's this Indonesian song that sounds like something directly out of an Anime opening. It's uncanny!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO_EMeFk_DU

Harry Sabar - Asmara

[DerangedKnite]

At 9/13/23 02:42 PM, CzySzy wrote: Also, there's this Indonesian song that sounds like something directly out of an Anime opening. It's uncanny!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO_EMeFk_DU
Harry Sabar - Asmara

Darn, That is pretty impressive! Yeah theres like a whole theory for these kinds of music, I don't wanna focus exactly on citypop but this can show, That other countries can perform such music, It all depends on how its played

[Troisnyx]

At 9/13/23 02:58 PM, DerangedKnite wrote:

At 9/13/23 02:42 PM, CzySzy wrote: Also, there's this Indonesian song that sounds like something directly out of an Anime opening. It's uncanny!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO_EMeFk_DU
Harry Sabar - Asmara

Darn, That is pretty impressive! Yeah theres like a whole theory for these kinds of music, I don't wanna focus exactly on citypop but this can show, That other countries can perform such music, It all depends on how its played

Aside from various traditional styles and performances (and that, again, is blurry as traditions can overlap), I'd be hard-pressed to declare a certain trope of music as belonging to a country.

With sensitivity and heart, anyone can do anything. People said that classic rock wasn't for people like me.

[Czyszy]

At 9/13/23 04:03 PM, Troisnyx wrote:

At 9/13/23 02:58 PM, DerangedKnite wrote:

At 9/13/23 02:42 PM, CzySzy wrote: Also, there's this Indonesian song that sounds like something directly out of an Anime opening. It's uncanny!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO_EMeFk_DU
Harry Sabar - Asmara

Darn, That is pretty impressive! Yeah theres like a whole theory for these kinds of music, I don't wanna focus exactly on citypop but this can show, That other countries can perform such music, It all depends on how its played

Aside from various traditional styles and performances (and that, again, is blurry as traditions can overlap), I'd be hard-pressed to declare a certain trope of music as belonging to a country.

With sensitivity and heart, anyone can do anything. People said that classic rock wasn't for people like me.

I mean, yeah. That's what I'm trying to prove with these examples.

[DJXyZssss]

If you want to make japanese harmonies, I recommed you to use a VST called "'Sakura", its really good

[DerangedKnite]

At 9/14/23 08:50 AM, DJXyZssss wrote: If you want to make japanese harmonies, I recommed you to use a VST called "'Sakura", its really good

Weird, I already have it on my FL studio, What can I exactly do with it?

[DJXyZssss]

At 9/14/23 09:10 AM, DerangedKnite wrote:

At 9/14/23 08:50 AM, DJXyZssss wrote: If you want to make japanese harmonies, I recommed you to use a VST called "'Sakura", its really good

Weird, I already have it on my FL studio, What can I exactly do with it?

Use some of the presets that are available in that plugin.

[DerangedKnite]

At 9/14/23 11:54 AM, DJXyZssss wrote:

At 9/14/23 09:10 AM, DerangedKnite wrote:

At 9/14/23 08:50 AM, DJXyZssss wrote: If you want to make japanese harmonies, I recommed you to use a VST called "'Sakura", its really good

Weird, I already have it on my FL studio, What can I exactly do with it?

Use some of the presets that are available in that plugin.

Tried some of these, And you know, Some of these can work for a japanese rpg game,Which is honestly good enough. Like some of these presets you can hear being used in a random background music on some anime while they talk about a villian

I wanna go with much more like generic jrock type of music

[DerangedKnite]

At 9/14/23 11:54 AM, DJXyZssss wrote:

At 9/14/23 09:10 AM, DerangedKnite wrote:

At 9/14/23 08:50 AM, DJXyZssss wrote: If you want to make japanese harmonies, I recommed you to use a VST called "'Sakura", its really good

Weird, I already have it on my FL studio, What can I exactly do with it?

Use some of the presets that are available in that plugin.

https://vocaroo.com/1ar9bboqY6WV

well I also gave this a shot so

[Jernemies]

Basically view it through the lens of jazz and a lot of things fall into place. Jazz, especially jazz fusion (as exemplified by japanese artists like CASIOPEA, T-square, Masayoshi Takanaka), was very popular in Japan at some point, and still a lot of it is carried in the DNA of Japanese music. I'm not going to claim I know of every cultural force beyond that as I'm not Japanese, but my point is that if you understand jazz, you're equipped to deal with at least 95% of popular japanese genres e.g. citypop (or japanese jazz fusion).

As far as western examples go, look into jazz fusion. I'm going to name 70s-80s artists, such as Russ Freeman, Ian Carr, Weather Report, Caldera and Spin, because I believe this is where western and Japanese jazz fusion were most closely stylistically linked. For comparison, I name dropped a few Japanese counterparts already, but Masayoshi Takanaka, Casiopea, Jun Fukamachi, T-Square, Yuji Ohno and Hiromasa Suzuki. Past this era I'm not informed enough to tell you where exactly this music went or what it evolved into, but my finger would point at artists like Sungazer (with their electronic influences and fuckery) and Vulfpeck/Fearless Flyers/Cory Wong/other funk artists (sometimes the lines between these styles are blurry!) as possible branches of this style in the tree of musical evolution.

I'll add to that, my theory is that this melodic jazz style is somewhat coming back via video game music. As some strand of the DNA of this jazz influence can be found in VGM and in turn influenced generations of composers, it feels like we're primed to move towards this style of melody and harmony. That could be just my wishful thinking though

[Czyszy]

At 9/14/23 11:01 PM, Jernemies wrote: Basically view it through the lens of jazz and a lot of things fall into place. Jazz, especially jazz fusion (as exemplified by japanese artists like CASIOPEA, T-square, Masayoshi Takanaka), was very popular in Japan at some point, and still a lot of it is carried in the DNA of Japanese music. I'm not going to claim I know of every cultural force beyond that as I'm not Japanese, but my point is that if you understand jazz, you're equipped to deal with at least 95% of popular japanese genres e.g. citypop (or japanese jazz fusion).

As far as western examples go, look into jazz fusion. I'm going to name 70s-80s artists, such as Russ Freeman, Ian Carr, Weather Report, Caldera and Spin, because I believe this is where western and Japanese jazz fusion were most closely stylistically linked. For comparison, I name dropped a few Japanese counterparts already, but Masayoshi Takanaka, Casiopea, Jun Fukamachi, T-Square, Yuji Ohno and Hiromasa Suzuki. Past this era I'm not informed enough to tell you where exactly this music went or what it evolved into, but my finger would point at artists like Sungazer (with their electronic influences and fuckery) and Vulfpeck/Fearless Flyers/Cory Wong/other funk artists (sometimes the lines between these styles are blurry!) as possible branches of this style in the tree of musical evolution.

I'll add to that, my theory is that this melodic jazz style is somewhat coming back via video game music. As some strand of the DNA of this jazz influence can be found in VGM and in turn influenced generations of composers, it feels like we're primed to move towards this style of melody and harmony. That could be just my wishful thinking though

If you wanna get into J-Fusion, I'd recommend the live album Casiopea vs. The Square! It's just incredible.

[DerangedKnite]

At 9/14/23 11:01 PM, Jernemies wrote: Basically view it through the lens of jazz and a lot of things fall into place. Jazz, especially jazz fusion (as exemplified by japanese artists like CASIOPEA, T-square, Masayoshi Takanaka), was very popular in Japan at some point, and still a lot of it is carried in the DNA of Japanese music. I'm not going to claim I know of every cultural force beyond that as I'm not Japanese, but my point is that if you understand jazz, you're equipped to deal with at least 95% of popular japanese genres e.g. citypop (or japanese jazz fusion).

As far as western examples go, look into jazz fusion. I'm going to name 70s-80s artists, such as Russ Freeman, Ian Carr, Weather Report, Caldera and Spin, because I believe this is where western and Japanese jazz fusion were most closely stylistically linked. For comparison, I name dropped a few Japanese counterparts already, but Masayoshi Takanaka, Casiopea, Jun Fukamachi, T-Square, Yuji Ohno and Hiromasa Suzuki. Past this era I'm not informed enough to tell you where exactly this music went or what it evolved into, but my finger would point at artists like Sungazer (with their electronic influences and fuckery) and Vulfpeck/Fearless Flyers/Cory Wong/other funk artists (sometimes the lines between these styles are blurry!) as possible branches of this style in the tree of musical evolution.

I'll add to that, my theory is that this melodic jazz style is somewhat coming back via video game music. As some strand of the DNA of this jazz influence can be found in VGM and in turn influenced generations of composers, it feels like we're primed to move towards this style of melody and harmony. That could be just my wishful thinking though

Yeah, I can tell that I am slowly realizing that its a whole genre on its own, Thats mostly made in japan. And its a pretty lovely genre, I can tell that its make its way to video games and smaller indie developers too, Yeah I kinda wanna practice on that.

But my main focus here is japanese rock music, Or modern japanese music in general, We are talking like..Hate to say this, But anime openings. I wanna omit to songs like these, I want to have a modern focus, Check the luna sea music video I sent to get an idea, Something similar to that and dejavu by luna sea

[Redmage4]

At 9/13/23 01:54 PM, DerangedKnite wrote: Ever listened to an anime opening/Or a video game soundtrack...Your you just so happen to be a fan of jpop/jrock or you listened to city pop, So and so fourth.

Don't you theres a whole weird difference in music when it comes to japanese music? Harmony and everything seem much more unique, Its as if it uses a different version of the theory when it comes to the usual theory.

I was always interested in this, Listening to dragon quest's soundtrack, you can feel there is this theme or tune that most japanese music have

The series recycles it's own music in a way that is the same as all the Zelda games. The music is the music; it changes, but it's definitely in there somewhere, the most common examples being in all of them, but modded and/or played backwards (in Skyward Sword) that sort of thing, over and over again since the day we were born.

They all have a much more different harmony and notes with that of western music, I wonder how can a thing like that be achieved? Been practicing on my keyboard (Or piano...:/) And I wanna achieve that type of harmony and tone most japanese music form

The only time I have seen it be used by western musicians, Is through an obscure genre of digital fusion which is why I love it, I really I wanna achieve that.

So is there like a whole music theory for this in the first place? And how can one achieve it?

My theory is just mish-mash notes, music, sounds, and whatever all randomly with no logic, see what combinations go well together and then... go hard.

See below for what I mean.

Bonus:Been meaning to wonder if any other western musician managed to make music similar to one that japan does

Yes, a solitary flash game developer made a trilogy years ago, now ported to steam, incomplete with much that could have been.

Like JRPGs, some bits of the theme music is modded in various parts of the OST.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuoDgJL-4dM&list=PLNBkX18ncJ0yucYu9bKFWVLdmawh3l21U

[Jernemies]

At 9/15/23 07:02 PM, DerangedKnite wrote:

At 9/14/23 11:01 PM, Jernemies wrote: Basically view it through the lens of jazz and a lot of things fall into place. Jazz, especially jazz fusion (as exemplified by japanese artists like CASIOPEA, T-square, Masayoshi Takanaka), was very popular in Japan at some point, and still a lot of it is carried in the DNA of Japanese music. I'm not going to claim I know of every cultural force beyond that as I'm not Japanese, but my point is that if you understand jazz, you're equipped to deal with at least 95% of popular japanese genres e.g. citypop (or japanese jazz fusion).

As far as western examples go, look into jazz fusion. I'm going to name 70s-80s artists, such as Russ Freeman, Ian Carr, Weather Report, Caldera and Spin, because I believe this is where western and Japanese jazz fusion were most closely stylistically linked. For comparison, I name dropped a few Japanese counterparts already, but Masayoshi Takanaka, Casiopea, Jun Fukamachi, T-Square, Yuji Ohno and Hiromasa Suzuki. Past this era I'm not informed enough to tell you where exactly this music went or what it evolved into, but my finger would point at artists like Sungazer (with their electronic influences and fuckery) and Vulfpeck/Fearless Flyers/Cory Wong/other funk artists (sometimes the lines between these styles are blurry!) as possible branches of this style in the tree of musical evolution.

I'll add to that, my theory is that this melodic jazz style is somewhat coming back via video game music. As some strand of the DNA of this jazz influence can be found in VGM and in turn influenced generations of composers, it feels like we're primed to move towards this style of melody and harmony. That could be just my wishful thinking though

Yeah, I can tell that I am slowly realizing that its a whole genre on its own, Thats mostly made in japan. And its a pretty lovely genre, I can tell that its make its way to video games and smaller indie developers too, Yeah I kinda wanna practice on that.

But my main focus here is japanese rock music, Or modern japanese music in general, We are talking like..Hate to say this, But anime openings. I wanna omit to songs like these, I want to have a modern focus, Check the luna sea music video I sent to get an idea, Something similar to that and dejavu by luna sea

Aight Iet me give you a handful of concrete stereotypes to look for in J-rock/J-pop, VGM, even Japanese metal to some degree using the Luna Sea song above as an example.

Two stereotypically Japanese sounds stand out in the Luna Sea song in particular:

1. The bVI-bVII-v-i progression (or IV-V-iii-vi, depending on where you view it from). This is super common in J-rock and related styles, and I'd wager you'll find it in a large chunk of anime opening themes. By removing the v, we can simplify it into bVI-bVII-i or bVI-bVII-I, which I call Megaman and Mario cadence, respectively. The cadences are common even outside of Japan, but Japan likes to drop in the v to make it a standalone 4 bar progression suitable for pop. This is probably the most Japanese sound you'll find, as it's not nearly as common in the west. This is also the only major element that's not specifically a jazz influence, this is something the Japanese came up or took from someplace else.
2. Quick secondary dominants, 2-5-1 in particular (e.g. 0:54 in the video. Also 1:00, though in my ears the instance at 3:55 sounds a lot clearer). In a bar you drop a V7/V into a V into either I or i in the next bar. In this song in particular the V isn't really emphasized (technically making it a bVII7 if we view A minor as the root), but because the b7 in the V7 chord is explicitly played and because this is a very commonly used part of harmony in Japan, I feel confident in drawing this parallel. They're not comfortable simply sitting on a chord for two bars here, they do this move to keep the harmony in motion and use it to resolve back to the root. If you want an element to take into your own work, this would be the most versatile move to implement imo. This is where jazz lens comes back on, as any jazz theory nerd can tell you, you could write an entire discography using nothing but 2-5-1s.

Other fun things to look for in Japanese music in general:

• 2-5-1s and 2-5 chains. I already somewhat touched on this above, but it bears mentioning because it's not limited to quick 2-5 bursts to resolve back to a chord. You could legitimately just chain these until you've achieved a chord progression of desired length. What you do is you start with chords ii-V7-I. Chord qualities don't really matter, hence why I use mostly arabic numerals, these are just an example you could do. You go through the chords, and when you get to I, you treat that as the II for the next 2-5-1. Keep going until happy. You don't even have to wait a measure on the I chord before you do it again, you can just go straight to the next chord in the chain. Very common in jazz, and decently common in Japan too.
• Extensions, color tones. Same thing with different name. The Luna Sea song kinda does this in a couple of chords in the intro, but it didn't feel significant enough to draw attention to. Basically you just add a note outside the triad or 7th chord into the chord. It's literally that simple. In this paragraph I'll also point out 7th chords are decently common, though in J-rock and other such styles it's most often the flat 7 in a secondary dominant.
• Altered dominant chords. You'll find often chords like 7#5 or just augmented chords in place of a typical V7, depending on the flavor you're looking for. Often you'll even find both in the same piece to spice up a repeated resolution. Baka Mitai has a many examples of this, but the one at after 0:54 is probably my favorite because it's exactly the kind of off-handed, casual one-off hints of jazz you'll most often find (although Baka Mitai is definitely jazzy all around). Tritone substitutions count for this, which is basically just playing a bII7 (or any alteration of it) in place of a V7.

This is why I tell you to keep your jazz lenses on. I understand analyzing entire discographies of an entire genre is a massive undertaking, which is why I've distilled some elements for you here. Hopefully this helps you make more sense of the music and implement some of it in your own work.

Oh and while I can still edit, think about how the underlying harmony affects a melody. The same melody will sound drastically different depending on the harmony underneath, and harmonic concepts like these function as fantastic punctuation for a melody. You can easily recycle a melody wholesale in a piece if you change the harmony underneath. Often people overfixate on the melody, when usually the melody in any given piece isn't that special, and the harmony or other accompanying stuff is doing the heavy lifting. This is how you can utilize harmonic little tricks like these

[DerangedKnite]

At 9/15/23 09:58 PM, Jernemies wrote:

At 9/15/23 07:02 PM, DerangedKnite wrote:

At 9/14/23 11:01 PM, Jernemies wrote: Basically view it through the lens of jazz and a lot of things fall into place. Jazz, especially jazz fusion (as exemplified by japanese artists like CASIOPEA, T-square, Masayoshi Takanaka), was very popular in Japan at some point, and still a lot of it is carried in the DNA of Japanese music. I'm not going to claim I know of every cultural force beyond that as I'm not Japanese, but my point is that if you understand jazz, you're equipped to deal with at least 95% of popular japanese genres e.g. citypop (or japanese jazz fusion).

As far as western examples go, look into jazz fusion. I'm going to name 70s-80s artists, such as Russ Freeman, Ian Carr, Weather Report, Caldera and Spin, because I believe this is where western and Japanese jazz fusion were most closely stylistically linked. For comparison, I name dropped a few Japanese counterparts already, but Masayoshi Takanaka, Casiopea, Jun Fukamachi, T-Square, Yuji Ohno and Hiromasa Suzuki. Past this era I'm not informed enough to tell you where exactly this music went or what it evolved into, but my finger would point at artists like Sungazer (with their electronic influences and fuckery) and Vulfpeck/Fearless Flyers/Cory Wong/other funk artists (sometimes the lines between these styles are blurry!) as possible branches of this style in the tree of musical evolution.

I'll add to that, my theory is that this melodic jazz style is somewhat coming back via video game music. As some strand of the DNA of this jazz influence can be found in VGM and in turn influenced generations of composers, it feels like we're primed to move towards this style of melody and harmony. That could be just my wishful thinking though

Yeah, I can tell that I am slowly realizing that its a whole genre on its own, Thats mostly made in japan. And its a pretty lovely genre, I can tell that its make its way to video games and smaller indie developers too, Yeah I kinda wanna practice on that.

But my main focus here is japanese rock music, Or modern japanese music in general, We are talking like..Hate to say this, But anime openings. I wanna omit to songs like these, I want to have a modern focus, Check the luna sea music video I sent to get an idea, Something similar to that and dejavu by luna sea

Aight Iet me give you a handful of concrete stereotypes to look for in J-rock/J-pop, VGM, even Japanese metal to some degree using the Luna Sea song above as an example.

Two stereotypically Japanese sounds stand out in the Luna Sea song in particular:

Other fun things to look for in Japanese music in general:

This is why I tell you to keep your jazz lenses on. I understand analyzing entire discographies of an entire genre is a massive undertaking, which is why I've distilled some elements for you here. Hopefully this helps you make more sense of the music and implement some of it in your own work.

Oh and while I can still edit, think about how the underlying harmony affects a melody. The same melody will sound drastically different depending on the harmony underneath, and harmonic concepts like these function as fantastic punctuation for a melody. You can easily recycle a melody wholesale in a piece if you change the harmony underneath. Often people overfixate on the melody, when usually the melody in any given piece isn't that special, and the harmony or other accompanying stuff is doing the heavy lifting. This is how you can utilize harmonic little tricks like these

This is all around lovely! Thank you for putting the effort to writing this! Think I sort of get most of it by now! Since you keep mentioning how most of the tunes in the Luna Sea Music video keeps relying 2-5-1 It looks like they all sort of rely on the same formula of song Yet slightly modified, Hence its easy to develop, Know there is something similar to how dragon quest and ghibili music do it, Where the songs can somehow continue from a minor to a major smoothly

But yeah some of the tunes are all similar and can be commonly found, Plastic love, Has a tune part thats commonly used in most japanese esc songs, Its found in the intro of it.

Think I should try replicating something like the the like the luna sea one on the keyboard. I'll attempt my 2-5-1 It won't be easy since I am sort of getting used to the thing, But hopefully I'll try to get the result soon!

[DerangedKnite]

At 9/15/23 09:32 PM, Redmage4 wrote:

At 9/13/23 01:54 PM, DerangedKnite wrote: Ever listened to an anime opening/Or a video game soundtrack...Your you just so happen to be a fan of jpop/jrock or you listened to city pop, So and so fourth.

Don't you theres a whole weird difference in music when it comes to japanese music? Harmony and everything seem much more unique, Its as if it uses a different version of the theory when it comes to the usual theory.

I was always interested in this, Listening to dragon quest's soundtrack, you can feel there is this theme or tune that most japanese music have

The series recycles it's own music in a way that is the same as all the Zelda games. The music is the music; it changes, but it's definitely in there somewhere, the most common examples being in all of them, but modded and/or played backwards (in Skyward Sword) that sort of thing, over and over again since the day we were born.

They all have a much more different harmony and notes with that of western music, I wonder how can a thing like that be achieved? Been practicing on my keyboard (Or piano...:/) And I wanna achieve that type of harmony and tone most japanese music form

The only time I have seen it be used by western musicians, Is through an obscure genre of digital fusion which is why I love it, I really I wanna achieve that.

So is there like a whole music theory for this in the first place? And how can one achieve it?

My theory is just mish-mash notes, music, sounds, and whatever all randomly with no logic, see what combinations go well together and then... go hard.
See below for what I mean.

Bonus:Been meaning to wonder if any other western musician managed to make music similar to one that japan does

Yes, a solitary flash game developer made a trilogy years ago, now ported to steam, incomplete with much that could have been.
Like JRPGs, some bits of the theme music is modded in various parts of the OST.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuoDgJL-4dM&list=PLNBkX18ncJ0yucYu9bKFWVLdmawh3l21U

I see then, Think all it really takes is play some few notes that sound closesly similar to sort of a japanese music harmony, And then go ham and try to continue from there, Think I know quite a few tunes, But wouldn't work much for a beginning of a song.

[Jernemies]

I'll also add, since I realize I didn't make this clear, the 1 in a 2-5-1 doesn't have to be the root of your key. Some people tend to hyperfixate on the key so I feel like this is an important distinction to make. It's just the chord you want to resolve to, and you temporarily treat that chord as if it was the root.

[ChromaticKing]

At 9/15/23 07:02 PM, DerangedKnite wrote: But my main focus here is japanese rock music, Or modern japanese music in general, We are talking like..Hate to say this, But anime openings. I wanna omit to songs like these, I want to have a modern focus, Check the luna sea music video I sent to get an idea, Something similar to that and dejavu by luna sea

Hey OP, just thought I'd share this video that helped me along the way when researching the very same topic lol :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aezSL_GvZA