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BandLab not allowed on Newgrounds?

1,565 Views | 25 Replies
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According to the Audio Guidelines, I cannot use BandLab to make my songs.

iu_870965_9483995.png

It's not one of them stock loop softwares, it's a very decent free DAW that lets me create and import melodies, assign instruments, mix it thouroughly, and even master it. I've occasionally used it for about a year without issue, usually in conjunction with BeepBox, so what's the problem? According to this rule, Magix Music Maker Jam, Soundation, and apparently Bandlab, don't let me retain full rights to my music, and posting it to Newgrounds would violate their license or something.


I checked the Terms of Use, the Community Guidelines, and even their Music Rights blog, and I don't think I found anything of the sorts. In fact, they explicitly say in the TOS:

3.1 Ownership: You retain ownership of all Content that you Submit through use of the Services (“Your Content”). We do not claim any ownership rights over Your Content.


So why is it banned?

Response to BandLab not allowed on Newgrounds? 2023-01-18 19:44:00


The audio portal thrives on originality and not music software that relies on premade loops to produce said "music". You'd be better off using Fl Studio or Mario Paint Composer if you have no money or until you can afford Fl Studio...

iu_871394_9692889.gif


At 1/18/23 07:44 PM, Jojo wrote: The audio portal thrives on originality and not music software that relies on premade loops to produce said "music". You'd be better off using Fl Studio or Mario Paint Composer if you have no money or until you can afford Fl Studio...


I'm aware that Bandlab has a huge list of Stock Loops. and I always avoided it, plus there's already a Stock Loops rule which applies to all DAWs anyway, so what's the problem? It wasn't an issue a year ago, so why now?

Response to BandLab not allowed on Newgrounds? 2023-01-18 22:51:34


At 1/18/23 10:42 PM, BeepBoxClock wrote:
At 1/18/23 07:44 PM, Jojo wrote: The audio portal thrives on originality and not music software that relies on premade loops to produce said "music". You'd be better off using Fl Studio or Mario Paint Composer if you have no money or until you can afford Fl Studio...
I'm aware that Bandlab has a huge list of Stock Loops. and I always avoided it, plus there's already a Stock Loops rule which applies to all DAWs anyway, so what's the problem? It wasn't an issue a year ago, so why now?


That I do not know; my apologies.

Response to BandLab not allowed on Newgrounds? 2023-01-19 06:41:26


At 1/18/23 12:00 PM, BeepBoxClock wrote: I checked the Terms of Use, the Community Guidelines, and even their Music Rights blog, and I don't think I found anything of the sorts. In fact, they explicitly say in the TOS:

So why is it banned?


No, that's referring to 'your content' (as imports and recordings, not exports) in section 3.1. BandLab have worded that in a specific way so they're both not held liable for the user's own copyrighted, and not held liable if a user on their service uploads copyrighted content that is not theirs. Hence why Section 3.6 is also present to expand upon that:


3.6 Your responsibility for Your Content: You are solely responsible for all Content that you Submit on or through the Services. We neither endorse nor assume any responsibility for Your Content.


=====

Section 3.2, 3.3 and 3.7 are the main reasons why BandLab uploads are banned from the NG Audio Portal for everyone regardless of how they use it:


3.2 Licence granted to us: Subject to Section 5 below with respect to Content contributed by Artists in connection with the Albums Service, by Submitting Your Content through the Services, you hereby grant us a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, sub-licensable and transferable licence to access, use, reproduce, distribute, publicly display, publicly perform, adapt, synchronise, prepare derivative works of, compile, make available and otherwise communicate Your Content to the public, in connection with the Services and our (and our successors’ and Related Entities’) business, including the distribution of advertising or other promotional material through the Services. You also hereby grant to us the worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, sub-licensable, and transferable right to use, distribute, reproduce, copy, and display your trademarks, service marks, slogans, logos or similar proprietary rights (collectively, the “Trademarks”) solely in connection with the Services or in the marketing, promotion or advertising of the Services, including in all forms of marketing, promotion, and advertising materials now known or hereafter created.


3.3 Licence granted to other Users: Subject to Section 5 below with respect to Content contributed by Artists in connection with the Albums Service, as a User of the Services, you grant to other Users, and to operators and users of Linked Services, a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, sub-licensable and transferable licence to access, use, reproduce, distribute, publicly display, publicly perform, adapt, synchronise, prepare derivative works of, compile, make available and otherwise communicate to the public, Your Content, utilising the Sharing Functionalities of the Services available from time to time, and in accordance with the Content Sharing Settings set by you using the Sharing Functionalities.


3.7 Ownership of others Users’ Content: Any Content made available on the Services, other than Your Content, remains the property of the relevant User, and may be subject to Intellectual Property Rights. You do not acquire ownership of another User’s Content, if you merely repost that Content, or include that Content in a playlist or station. You also do not acquire any rights or permission to use another User’s Content except as stated in the Agreement. Such Content may not be downloaded, reproduced, distributed, transmitted, re-uploaded, adapted, synchronised, republished, displayed, sold, licensed, made available or otherwise communicated to the public or exploited for any purposes except through the Sharing Functionalities of the Services and in accordance with the Content Sharing Settings set by the relevant User using the Sharing Functionalities of the Services, or with the prior written consent of the relevant User. You agree not to circumvent, disable or otherwise interfere with security-related features of the Services or features that prevent or restrict the Sharing of any Content or which enforce limitations on use of the Services or the Content therein.


| Multi-Genre Composer, Main Preferences Are Atmosphere Crafting & Technical Detailing/Palettes | Audio Portal Moderator |


| FREE Audio Resources List For Composers | NG Audio Pub Discord | Follow These Legends! |

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Response to BandLab not allowed on Newgrounds? 2023-01-19 16:27:34


Also to clarify since OP linked everything relating to BandLab the desktop program, the rule relates to Bandlab the mobile app as it specifically caters to the stock loops crowd who needed reinforcement of the point.


Flag stolen content, don't be a dingus.

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I hope you all realize that it's possible to make music in BandLab without using a single loop. It has a piano roll, drum sequencer and the whole nine. Just throwing that out there...

Response to BandLab not allowed on Newgrounds? 2023-01-20 15:16:50


most people use bandlab for the stock loops it offers over there. yeah theres a piano roll and drum sequencer but most people dont turn to that when installing it, mostly just the loop library it has. thats how i found out about bandlab back in 2018.


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At 1/18/23 07:44 PM, Jojo wrote: The audio portal thrives on originality and not music software that relies on premade loops to produce said "music". You'd be better off using Fl Studio or Mario Paint Composer if you have no money or until you can afford Fl Studio...


this is an outrage

Response to BandLab not allowed on Newgrounds? 2023-02-15 15:13:14


At 1/20/23 09:19 AM, kamalamalamalam wrote: I hope you all realize that it's possible to make music in BandLab without using a single loop. It has a piano roll, drum sequencer and the whole nine. Just throwing that out there...


There's also a sampler, but let's not get into that. You could take one shots like kicks and bass notes and put them in there. You can't sample that easily in FL Studio. Trust me, I tried.

Response to BandLab not allowed on Newgrounds? 2023-02-15 15:19:14


Coming back to this post, as long as you're using the desktop version and not the free stock loops, you should be fine to use BandLab.

Response to BandLab not allowed on Newgrounds? 2023-02-15 15:27:23


At 2/15/23 03:13 PM, TheSweaterCinderace wrote:
At 1/20/23 09:19 AM, kamalamalamalam wrote: I hope you all realize that it's possible to make music in BandLab without using a single loop. It has a piano roll, drum sequencer and the whole nine. Just throwing that out there...
There's also a sampler, but let's not get into that. You could take one shots like kicks and bass notes and put them in there. You can't sample that easily in FL Studio. Trust me, I tried.

I don't think you tried hard enough, because I never had any issue sampling in FL. It's pretty much easier than it is in BandLab, and there's multiple ways to go about doing it (Edison, DirectWave, editing directly in the playlist, Slicex, etc)


I decided to check on this again as I'm still trying to wrap my head around this. The reason why I'm confused is because @Pingu's and @LD-W's responses conflict with each other


At 1/19/23 04:27 PM, Pingu wrote: Also to clarify since OP linked everything relating to BandLab the desktop program, the rule relates to Bandlab the mobile app as it specifically caters to the stock loops crowd who needed reinforcement of the point.


If the rules only apply to the mobile version, then I feel this rule is very unclear about it. If this is the case, the guideline should say

"You may not upload music made with Magix, Soundation, etc. or the BandLab mobile app (not the desktop app or Cakewalk)"


At 1/19/23 06:41 AM, LD-W wrote: No, that's referring to 'your content' (as imports and recordings, not exports) in section 3.1. BandLab have worded that in a specific way so they're both not held liable for the user's own copyrighted, and not held liable if a user on their service uploads copyrighted content that is not theirs. Hence why Section 3.6 is also present to expand upon that:


I definitely think "Your Content" also applies to exports as well. 3.2 and 3.3 mentions:

"a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, sub-licensable and transferable licence to access, use, reproduce, distribute, publicly display, publicly perform, adapt, synchronise, prepare derivative works of, compile, make available and otherwise communicate Your Content to the public"


A similar license also applies to user content submitted to Newgrounds itself.

V. User Submissions, B.

"you retain all of your ownership rights in your User Submissions. However, by submitting the User Submissions to Newgrounds, you hereby grant Newgrounds a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, blah-blah-blah"


I believe this is due to BandLab also being a distribution platform in addition to a DAW. They also store the master file (so it's not on my hard drive), In that sense, I can see why those terms exist.

Thing is, even if the song I made is private and never was published on BandLab, does that worldwide, non-exclusive royalty-free stuff also apply to publishing on other sites? Does it give BandLab the right to sue Newgrounds?

Even if I import recordings + instruments (my own) from another DAW and add effects to them is this still disallowed?


I also feel 3.7 applies to other peoples' songs, not my own.

Response to BandLab not allowed on Newgrounds? 2023-07-02 11:15:45


mannn let the people use whatever DAW they want imo! premade loops r music. rearranging them into ur preferred order is super music. 90% of 2000s video game tracks - shit that many of us take huge inspiration from - is just a bunch of sony acid, garageband, and sample CD loops slapped together.


beepboxclock, make music however u see fit and upload it wherever imo - nothing else rly matters


At 7/2/23 11:10 AM, BeepBoxClock wrote: I decided to check on this again as I'm still trying to wrap my head around this. The reason why I'm confused is because @Pingu's and @LD-W's responses conflict with each other

At 1/19/23 04:27 PM, Pingu wrote: Also to clarify since OP linked everything relating to BandLab the desktop program, the rule relates to Bandlab the mobile app as it specifically caters to the stock loops crowd who needed reinforcement of the point.
If the rules only apply to the mobile version, then I feel this rule is very unclear about it. If this is the case, the guideline should say
"You may not upload music made with Magix, Soundation, etc. or the BandLab mobile app (not the desktop app or Cakewalk)"

At 1/19/23 06:41 AM, LD-W wrote: No, that's referring to 'your content' (as imports and recordings, not exports) in section 3.1. BandLab have worded that in a specific way so they're both not held liable for the user's own copyrighted, and not held liable if a user on their service uploads copyrighted content that is not theirs. Hence why Section 3.6 is also present to expand upon that:
I definitely think "Your Content" also applies to exports as well. 3.2 and 3.3 mentions:
"a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, sub-licensable and transferable licence to access, use, reproduce, distribute, publicly display, publicly perform, adapt, synchronise, prepare derivative works of, compile, make available and otherwise communicate Your Content to the public"

A similar license also applies to user content submitted to Newgrounds itself.
V. User Submissions, B.
"you retain all of your ownership rights in your User Submissions. However, by submitting the User Submissions to Newgrounds, you hereby grant Newgrounds a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, blah-blah-blah"

I believe this is due to BandLab also being a distribution platform in addition to a DAW. They also store the master file (so it's not on my hard drive), In that sense, I can see why those terms exist.
Thing is, even if the song I made is private and never was published on BandLab, does that worldwide, non-exclusive royalty-free stuff also apply to publishing on other sites? Does it give BandLab the right to sue Newgrounds?
Even if I import recordings + instruments (my own) from another DAW and add effects to them is this still disallowed?

I also feel 3.7 applies to other peoples' songs, not my own.


Looking through everything again freshly, it's still a murky/confusing situation, especially since Bandlab still seems to still have everything under the same Terms-of-Use instead of having seperate ToU's for their different products/services (which would make everything 10x easier to understand, for everyone)


I'm going to contact Bandlab and try to get an answer from them over the situation, so we can find out the proper answer, and work with whatever that may be.


EDIT: I've just email'd Bandlab. Awaiting a response


| Multi-Genre Composer, Main Preferences Are Atmosphere Crafting & Technical Detailing/Palettes | Audio Portal Moderator |


| FREE Audio Resources List For Composers | NG Audio Pub Discord | Follow These Legends! |

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At 7/2/23 11:15 AM, songs4lizards wrote: mannn let the people use whatever DAW they want imo! premade loops r music. rearranging them into ur preferred order is super music. 90% of 2000s video game tracks - shit that many of us take huge inspiration from - is just a bunch of sony acid, garageband, and sample CD loops slapped together.

beepboxclock, make music however u see fit and upload it wherever imo - nothing else rly matters


Restrictions exist on certain content and their origins, due to alot of DMCA's based around copyrighted content being dumped on the NG Audio Portal over the last two decades, content being dumped on the portal which violates certain companies Terms-of-Use when it comes to their products (such as the specific 'restricting' licensing preactices of certain samples/loops on a per-file basis), or certain DAW's historically placing your tracks/exports under their own licensing which conflicts with the Newgrounds own ToU (MAGIX being an infamous case of that).


Tom has to be careful with what is and isn't allowed when it comes to the legal-aspect of audio content being hosted on Newgrounds, otherwise the Audio Portal will outright shut down from bad it could potentially get, since Newgrounds isn't a massive entity financially which can just absorb a bunch of fines (hence why there's also the existence of the copyright-detection bot for non-scouted audio uploaders, especially since there's usually 50-100 violation cases the system is legitimately catching per day).


| Multi-Genre Composer, Main Preferences Are Atmosphere Crafting & Technical Detailing/Palettes | Audio Portal Moderator |


| FREE Audio Resources List For Composers | NG Audio Pub Discord | Follow These Legends! |

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Response to BandLab not allowed on Newgrounds? 2023-07-02 19:10:55


At 7/2/23 11:10 AM, BeepBoxClock wrote: If the rules only apply to the mobile version, then I feel this rule is very unclear about it. If this is the case, the guideline should say
"You may not upload music made with Magix, Soundation, etc. or the BandLab mobile app (not the desktop app or Cakewalk)"


There may be a misunderstanding but the rules do say almost exactly that:


You may not upload music made with Magix Music Maker Jam, Soundation, you.dj, Ampify or BandLab (the mobile app, not Cakewalk).


LD-W followed up/is following on the rest.


Flag stolen content, don't be a dingus.

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Response to BandLab not allowed on Newgrounds? 2023-07-02 20:15:23


At 7/2/23 07:09 PM, LD-W wrote:
At 7/2/23 11:15 AM, songs4lizards wrote: mannn let the people use whatever DAW they want imo! premade loops r music. rearranging them into ur preferred order is super music. 90% of 2000s video game tracks - shit that many of us take huge inspiration from - is just a bunch of sony acid, garageband, and sample CD loops slapped together.

beepboxclock, make music however u see fit and upload it wherever imo - nothing else rly matters
Restrictions exist on certain content and their origins, due to alot of DMCA's based around copyrighted content being dumped on the NG Audio Portal over the last two decades, content being dumped on the portal which violates certain companies Terms-of-Use when it comes to their products (such as the specific 'restricting' licensing preactices of certain samples/loops on a per-file basis), or certain DAW's historically placing your tracks/exports under their own licensing which conflicts with the Newgrounds own ToU (MAGIX being an infamous case of that).

Tom has to be careful with what is and isn't allowed when it comes to the legal-aspect of audio content being hosted on Newgrounds, otherwise the Audio Portal will outright shut down from bad it could potentially get, since Newgrounds isn't a massive entity financially which can just absorb a bunch of fines (hence why there's also the existence of the copyright-detection bot for non-scouted audio uploaders, especially since there's usually 50-100 violation cases the system is legitimately catching per day).


ur totally right! my b for the poor take!


At 7/2/23 07:10 PM, Pingu wrote:
At 7/2/23 11:10 AM, BeepBoxClock wrote: If the rules only apply to the mobile version, then I feel this rule is very unclear about it. If this is the case, the guideline should say
"You may not upload music made with Magix, Soundation, etc. or the BandLab mobile app (not the desktop app or Cakewalk)"
There may be a misunderstanding but the rules do say almost exactly that:

You may not upload music made with Magix Music Maker Jam, Soundation, you.dj, Ampify or BandLab (the mobile app, not Cakewalk).

LD-W followed up/is following on the rest.


So let me get this straight.

  1. There are three BandLab programs, the mobile app, Cakewalk, and the desktop program.
  2. The mobile app is not allowed because of stock loops
  3. BandLab (presumably both apps that aren't Cakewalk, or just on mobile as you claim) isn't allowed because of something in the TOS (as LD-W pointed out). Which of these 3 apps do these terms apply to, or do they all have different terms?
  4. If the same Terms apply to all BandLab products, shouldn't Cakewalk also be banned, even though the rules claim it is safe?

Response to BandLab not allowed on Newgrounds? 2023-07-07 18:28:13


So why is it banned?


Idk, but you're a million times more better off using Cakewalk than Bandlab. I use it and its been awesome.


EJECTO SEATO CUZ

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Response to BandLab not allowed on Newgrounds? 2023-07-08 04:54:51


At 7/7/23 06:28 PM, TeffyD wrote:
So why is it banned?
Idk, but you're a million times more better off using Cakewalk than Bandlab. I use it and its been awesome.


Nah. it's messy, one of the instruments keeps crackling, and importing MIDI's doesn't work. Also not as convenient.


Heya @BeepBoxClock


So I've had a couple of emails from a Bandlab representative about the situation. This is what we can establish:


  • There isn't a copyright issue with exports from any Bandlab product.
  • Bandlab for iOS/Android has progressed enough over time that I can agree with you that it's an actual mobile-DAW.
  • We haven't really gotten anywhere further with the T&C situation despite me asking about it (I didn't get any definitive answers over our potential concerns), so that remains somewhat murky/unclear, and up to our interpretation vs Newgrounds T&C's


Fine-combing through the T&C's one more time despite not getting an answer from them, we can strike sections 3.2 off the list of potential issues. Section 3.3 is a 'maybe-ok', under the case that NG could probuably host Bandlab-hosted content, but if there's a DMCA in relation to the circumstances under section 3.3. Section 3.7 remains iffy in general, but 'on the services' after thinking about it abit more, more than likely refers to their hosted services, as opposed to their applications, so Bandlab and Cakewalk By Bandlab 'exports which are not hosted on their online services' shouldn't be applicable under 3.7.


I think, the answer for now should be ok, but ultimately it's up to NG Site-Administration on the final say. All regular ruels still apply of course, so as long as you're using it like an actual DAW/Mobile DAW instead of a drag-and-drop loop system, you'll be ok


@TomFulp - considering the above, it may be time to remove the Bandlab restriction off of the audio gudelines (I'll do a post in mod-chat about it)


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Response to BandLab not allowed on Newgrounds? 2023-07-09 07:28:49


At 7/8/23 06:15 PM, LD-W wrote: @TomFulp - considering the above, it may be time to remove the Bandlab restriction off of the audio gudelines (I'll do a post in mod-chat about it)


Will it still be likely that songs made with Bandlab are over-reliant on premade loops, while others could be largely original? We could note that Bandlab is ok as long as your song isn't over-reliant on premade loops.


Working on Nightmare Cops!

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Response to BandLab not allowed on Newgrounds? 2023-07-09 09:26:32


At 7/9/23 07:28 AM, TomFulp wrote:
At 7/8/23 06:15 PM, LD-W wrote: @TomFulp - considering the above, it may be time to remove the Bandlab restriction off of the audio gudelines (I'll do a post in mod-chat about it)
Will it still be likely that songs made with Bandlab are over-reliant on premade loops, while others could be largely original? We could note that Bandlab is ok as long as your song isn't over-reliant on premade loops.


I think it just gets covered by the stock loops rule at that point. There's still a bunch of people every day being picked up for using BandLab app as a drag-and-drop loop studio, but if the majority are able to make proper submissions then that tips the balance in my mind to remove BL from the nope list.


Flag stolen content, don't be a dingus.

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Response to BandLab not allowed on Newgrounds? 2023-07-09 13:24:55


I lost my breath for a second, then saw the "not Cakewalk" part. Phew!



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Response to BandLab not allowed on Newgrounds? 2023-12-05 17:31:46


At 7/9/23 07:28 AM, TomFulp wrote:
At 7/8/23 06:15 PM, LD-W wrote: @TomFulp - considering the above, it may be time to remove the Bandlab restriction off of the audio gudelines (I'll do a post in mod-chat about it)
Will it still be likely that songs made with Bandlab are over-reliant on premade loops, while others could be largely original? We could note that Bandlab is ok as long as your song isn't over-reliant on premade loops.


I think that’s a good thing to note.