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Inclusivity Costs You Nothing

661 Views | 24 Replies

Ever since I've made really good friends with an intersex trans-coworker, I've been thinking about the use of "they/them/their" a lot. They were born as a female, and it admittedly took me a long time to train myself to adhere to their preferred pronouns because I kept slipping up calling them a "she" and they'd be quick to correct me. But in time, it started to make sense as I learned more about their personality, and eventually it stuck.

Online, gender doesn't really matter- we're all equally worthless and terrible. But there's still the general feeling that, when we encounter someone with an ambiguous identity, we default to assuming they're a "He."

And it's not just regulated to here, which contextually makes sense because Newgrounds is a website that for it's earliest years adorned itself with hentai banner ads aimed at horny young teenagers. But it's everywhere we interact with people that we may not necessarily hear or see the real them.

So if gender identity is ambiguous online, why not train ourselves to default to "they, them, their" when addressing people?

There's no way that could be inaccurate.

Instead of saying "I'm a guy, so of course I love titties" to say "I have blood pumping in me" because chicks dig that too.
and visa-versa for typically feminine stereotypes being saddled with "As a lady" because dudes share those attributes/passions/activities too, and toxic masculinity (keyword, ***TOXIC***...not saying masculinity is bad, but being shamed for doing feminine things is bullshit and) should be phased out.

So why assume and default the gender to people we interact with online is a dude? If we're proponents to gender equality, wouldn't it benefit our social interactions... by giving the benefit of the doubt that the person saying smart, funny, stupid, or awful bullshit or whatever... could have just as much likelihood as being a woman or intersex? I think it's a unique thing to weigh and consider since english isn't inherently locked in with gender identity in their language, like spanish for example; with masculine and feminine variants to all sorts of words and descriptors, objects, determiners, verbs, you name it.

My point is, I don't want to strain your brain to change you, I just want to point out that with a slight tweak in how you address people, you could be respectful and accurate without making assumptions about somebody that you don't know. Someone's having relationship troubles and didn't describe who the other person is, to default to "partner, loved one, boo, asshole" instead of assuming it's a boyfriend or girlfriend, a putrid dick or a loathsome cunt.

...Though I guess dudes can be loathsome cunts too, but I don't think chicks can be putrid dicks. I'm not sure about that.

Truth is we don't know for sure, and in cases like Ever-After, we may NEVER know for sure, and that's okay! It's not our business. But if you default refer people as "them" inclusively, hey good job, you weren't wrong.


-Formerly known as Phobotech-

Voice Actor / Pre-Production Animator / Illustrator / T-Shirt Designer / Author

"I sail through a golden nexus. By tanks with armor that glisten. I watch and I play with creations, and what I'm not reading, I listen." <-

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At 10/24/18 10:58 AM, MPPlantOfficial wrote: isn't "they/them" exclusively plural tho?

Not necessarily, they (talking about those two words) are easily and frequently used to describe an individual.

"Have you seen Johnny?"
"Yeah, they just left. Do you want me to call them?"

"This is theirs"
"What do you have in mind for them?"
"They better get their shit together."

Srry english isn't my first language

No worries, it's a confusing pain in the ass sometimes.


-Formerly known as Phobotech-

Voice Actor / Pre-Production Animator / Illustrator / T-Shirt Designer / Author

"I sail through a golden nexus. By tanks with armor that glisten. I watch and I play with creations, and what I'm not reading, I listen." <-

BBS Signature

It costs me the use of proper grammar, which I value above human feelings. Language can last centuries, humans are as fickle as butterflies.


"خيبر خيبر يايهود جيش محمد سوف يعود"

BBS Signature

Response to Inclusivity Costs You Nothing 2018-10-24 12:04:36


male, female....

You are all n00bs in my eyes.


This is a song about death. It's on mandolin.

Hate is the first step to all solutions.

You will not end bigotry until you learn to hate it.

BBS Signature

Response to Inclusivity Costs You Nothing 2018-10-24 12:11:21


Okay, I will just use he and she randomly, half the time each.


Latest TCs

I mainly focus on WPac and NATL basin.

Response to Inclusivity Costs You Nothing 2018-10-24 12:13:19


gains you nothing as well


We are living like kings, and these days will last forever.


At 10/24/18 11:51 AM, satanbrain wrote: It costs me the use of proper grammar, which I value above human feelings.

Okay but my point is addressing an individual online as "they/them/their" is still proper grammar, so you can be both respectful or dismissive and uncaring to the individual and still be correct. And in fact, misgendering someone is improper use of grammar, so the point I'm trying to make directly aligns with your priority to be a language snob. It is a win-win.

At 10/24/18 12:13 PM, GXFICH wrote: gains you nothing as well

That is false, being polite will get you far in life. It's always beneficial to strengthen your social circle, because friends and help can come from unexpected places.


-Formerly known as Phobotech-

Voice Actor / Pre-Production Animator / Illustrator / T-Shirt Designer / Author

"I sail through a golden nexus. By tanks with armor that glisten. I watch and I play with creations, and what I'm not reading, I listen." <-

BBS Signature

Response to Inclusivity Costs You Nothing 2018-10-24 13:37:29


At 10/24/18 12:26 PM, Phobotech wrote: And in fact, misgendering someone is improper use of grammar, so the point I'm trying to make directly aligns with your priority to be a language snob. It is a win-win.

They is always plural though.


"خيبر خيبر يايهود جيش محمد سوف يعود"

BBS Signature

Response to Inclusivity Costs You Nothing 2018-10-24 13:41:54


At 10/24/18 01:37 PM, satanbrain wrote:
They is always plural though.

Not necessarily. Learn a thing today.


-Formerly known as Phobotech-

Voice Actor / Pre-Production Animator / Illustrator / T-Shirt Designer / Author

"I sail through a golden nexus. By tanks with armor that glisten. I watch and I play with creations, and what I'm not reading, I listen." <-

BBS Signature

Response to Inclusivity Costs You Nothing 2018-10-24 14:08:07


At 10/24/18 01:41 PM, Phobotech wrote:
At 10/24/18 01:37 PM, satanbrain wrote:
They is always plural though.
Not necessarily. Learn a thing today.

"People have used singular 'they' to describe someone whose gender is unknown for a long time, but the nonbinary use of 'they' is relatively new." He or she means plural. 'Whomever they may be'.


"خيبر خيبر يايهود جيش محمد سوف يعود"

BBS Signature

At 10/24/18 02:08 PM, satanbrain wrote:
"People have used singular 'they' to describe someone whose gender is unknown for a long time, but the nonbinary use of 'they' is relatively new." He or she means plural. 'Whomever they may be'.

"Grammar pedants and trolls generally operate under a series of assumptions about language, which may or may not reflect current usage and accepted norms. In the linguistics community, there is a term for this view of language: prescriptivism.

...Unfortunately for prescriptivists, English is constantly changing—and always has been. Some words that grammar pedants scoff at as obnoxious neologisms were in fact coined as long ago as the nineteenth century.

...The singular they is simply another way English is changing for the shorter, the more empathetic, and the better. As we’ve mentioned before, the singular they is not even a new phenomenon. Merriam-Webster includes usage examples of the singular they dating back to Shakespeare, with notable additions from the likes of Jane Austen and even the traditionalist W. H. Auden."

Consider how old the English language is and how the use of "relatively new" when describing a change in the language could refer to several generations or hundreds of years. Consider additionally just how much the english language has evolved over the last century.

What I'm suggesting to you is to just roll with it.


-Formerly known as Phobotech-

Voice Actor / Pre-Production Animator / Illustrator / T-Shirt Designer / Author

"I sail through a golden nexus. By tanks with armor that glisten. I watch and I play with creations, and what I'm not reading, I listen." <-

BBS Signature

At 10/24/18 02:23 PM, Phobotech wrote:
...The singular they is simply another way English is changing for the shorter, the more empathetic, and the better. As we’ve mentioned before, the singular they is not even a new phenomenon. Merriam-Webster includes usage examples of the singular they dating back to Shakespeare, with notable additions from the likes of Jane Austen and even the traditionalist W. H. Auden."

Shakespeare had mistakes in his plays anyway. And 'they' was only used when a generality was made. "A person" "Each one" "nobody" et cetera. When talking about a specific person, they cannot be used.


"خيبر خيبر يايهود جيش محمد سوف يعود"

BBS Signature

Response to Inclusivity Costs You Nothing 2018-10-24 22:03:34


At 10/24/18 09:54 PM, yurgenburgen wrote: i can quite easily get my head around calling someone them/they/their if that is what they want but i draw the line when it gets into the xe/xer/zim/zum/bazongo territory

Now this post I can rally behind

Response to Inclusivity Costs You Nothing 2018-10-24 22:37:09


At 10/24/18 09:54 PM, yurgenburgen wrote: i can quite easily get my head around calling someone them/they/their if that is what they want but i draw the line when it gets into the xe/xer/zim/zum/bazongo territory

Invader Zim is intersex! you heard it here first

Response to Inclusivity Costs You Nothing 2018-10-25 05:24:56


At 10/24/18 01:41 PM, Phobotech wrote:
At 10/24/18 01:37 PM, satanbrain wrote:
They is always plural though.
Not necessarily. Learn a thing today.

Go Oxford or go home.

At 10/25/18 01:18 AM, MPPlantOfficial wrote:
At 10/24/18 10:37 PM, Scintillating wrote: Invader Zim is intersex! you heard it here first
does Alien hominid is gay?

It's the only member of its species that ever made contact to us. We have no way of knowing how AH sexuality would even look like.

Response to Inclusivity Costs You Nothing 2018-10-25 11:15:13


Well spoken, mate!

Indeed, I had thought recently that the internet is a place in which you are (usually) exposed to what one is saying before knowing their gender, something that doesn't happen easily anywhere else. And even though one could specify their gender in a user page or in a post, the internet gives the possibility of being anonymous, forcing people to subtract any type of gender judgement. And this goes beyond the gender issue, it allows people to be anonymous about their "race", sex, nationality, sexual orientation, etc. The internet is perhaps the only place in which it is possible for one to be judged only by what they are saying; even if it's only on very specific conditions.

And my mother language is Portuguese, and what you say is true. Just like in Spanish, in Portuguese you are forced to assign gender to literally everything, and there is no gender ambiguous pronoun such as They/Them/Their as there is in English. And I do feel that in English it is easier to not be offensive and presume gender, it really doesn't cost nothing an can turn into a habit very easily. I myself use They/Them/Their most of the time, not trying to avoid presuming someone's gender or being inclusive, it actually started with me trying to avoid calling a He a She, or a She a He.

And even though some people may claim that it is grammatically wrong (and it may actually be), we need to remember that language is ever-changing, and it changes through use. Many things these people call "correct grammar and vocabulary" was wrong 200 years ago. And English altogether is a "wrong" mixture of Old French, Old Norse, Old German and Vulgar Latin; which just started as a dialect that would be considered wrong by speakers of any of these languages. If today a singular they is incorrect, maybe in a near future it will not be; language changes, and when it stops changing, it's because it died.


The Original Hip Cat

{Be Rational} {You've been...}

Response to Inclusivity Costs You Nothing 2018-10-25 11:50:19


I AM A WOMAN!!! AND YOU WILL RESPECT MY PRONOUNS!!!


Endurance: 8, Perception: 5, Agility: 5, Intelligence: 3, Strength: 9, Charisma: 6, Luck: 5

Response to Inclusivity Costs You Nothing 2018-10-25 11:56:56


I'm still gonna call everyone "dude."

Yes, even animals.


This is a song about death. It's on mandolin.

Hate is the first step to all solutions.

You will not end bigotry until you learn to hate it.

BBS Signature

Response to Inclusivity Costs You Nothing 2018-10-25 14:47:52


At 10/25/18 11:56 AM, FUNKbrs wrote: I'm still gonna call everyone "dude."

Yes, even animals.

I was almost thinking the same thing, only I was going to go with "fuckface" instead of "dude".
I guess that wouldn't really be appropriate in the work place, though.


At 10/24/18 09:54 PM, yurgenburgen wrote: i can quite easily get my head around calling someone them/they/their if that is what they want but i draw the line when it gets into the xe/xer/zim/zum/bazongo territory

I agree completely, and I don't even know how much of that is legitimate outrage or actually 4chan / online trolls making fun of trans culture; I've never encountered someone that gets flustered and angry enough about something like that.

I'm sure they exist, but I'm also confident that every person that's like that could all fit into a Basketball court they're so few and far between. It just seems kinda unbelievable to me when ordinary gender neutral pronouns exist- inventing alien sounding pronouns and then DEMANDING people address them that way seems like a stretch.

At 10/25/18 11:15 AM, Xuvero wrote: Well spoken, mate!

Great post, man! I agree, and I still believe that singular use of they / them / their is correct usage. I think English has evolved enough that we're already there and it's correct.

At 10/25/18 11:56 AM, FUNKbrs wrote: I'm still gonna call everyone "dude."

Yes, even animals.

I call everyone dude as well (especially my cat), and that same trans friend I mentioned agrees that "dude" is gender neutral.


-Formerly known as Phobotech-

Voice Actor / Pre-Production Animator / Illustrator / T-Shirt Designer / Author

"I sail through a golden nexus. By tanks with armor that glisten. I watch and I play with creations, and what I'm not reading, I listen." <-

BBS Signature

Response to Inclusivity Costs You Nothing 2018-10-25 16:30:40


Yeah, nah. I'm calling you a man or woman depending on what you are, not what you feel like. I'm not changing the way I use the English language just because you wish you were born with tits or a dick. Online, I'm assuming you're a guy, unless evidence proves otherwise. This isn't just the case to English, but other languages as well that use masculine of feminine forms.


PSN:Ryder-Omega/Steam:Ryder Omega

I'm that lazy bastard who doesn't bother to take down his damn Christmas lights. I still have the fucking kriss-kringle hats from last year!

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Response to Inclusivity Costs You Nothing 2018-10-25 17:07:22


At 10/24/18 11:51 AM, satanbrain wrote: It costs me the use of proper grammar, which I value above human feelings. Language can last centuries, humans are as fickle as butterflies.

are you gonna cry snowflake


Dr. Spedmund McMallet

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Response to Inclusivity Costs You Nothing 2018-10-25 18:13:33


At 10/25/18 03:57 PM, Phobotech wrote:
At 10/25/18 11:15 AM, Xuvero wrote: Well spoken, mate!
Great post, man! I agree, and I still believe that singular use of they / them / their is correct usage. I think English has evolved enough that we're already there and it's correct.

I agree with that. I mean, it does feel pretty correct to me, it never felt like referring to a singular as a plural. But I won't try to claim much authority, it's only been 8 years since I learned how to speak English after all.

At 10/25/18 11:56 AM, FUNKbrs wrote: I'm still gonna call everyone "dude."

Yes, even animals.
I call everyone dude as well (especially my cat), and that same trans friend I mentioned agrees that "dude" is gender neutral.

We're all dudes!


The Original Hip Cat

{Be Rational} {You've been...}

Response to Inclusivity Costs You Nothing 2018-10-26 01:00:55


At 10/25/18 05:07 PM, Spedmallet wrote:
At 10/24/18 11:51 AM, satanbrain wrote: It costs me the use of proper grammar, which I value above human feelings. Language can last centuries, humans are as fickle as butterflies.
are you gonna cry snowflake

You're misreading the thread.


"خيبر خيبر يايهود جيش محمد سوف يعود"

BBS Signature

Response to Inclusivity Costs You Nothing 2018-11-02 20:08:42


At 10/26/18 01:00 AM, satanbrain wrote:
At 10/25/18 05:07 PM, Spedmallet wrote:
At 10/24/18 11:51 AM, satanbrain wrote: It costs me the use of proper grammar, which I value above human feelings. Language can last centuries, humans are as fickle as butterflies.
are you gonna cry snowflake
You're misreading the thread.

No, I think he was just making fun of you.


-Formerly known as Phobotech-

Voice Actor / Pre-Production Animator / Illustrator / T-Shirt Designer / Author

"I sail through a golden nexus. By tanks with armor that glisten. I watch and I play with creations, and what I'm not reading, I listen." <-

BBS Signature