American dismembered by Extremists

[Gario]

Allegedly, of course. Really wanted to fit "American journalist dismembered by Muslim extremists" for it's impact, but limited space and all...

Anyway, I'm quite for the idea of sanctioning Saudi Arabia for this, since this is a direct assault on an America resident, and frankly we need to have our country at our backs, when push comes to shove. Let's be honest, though; Trump is hinting he's going to essentially absolve the Saudi leadership for... reasons... or I could be totally wrong and Mr. 45 will sign off on sanctions against them in order to punish them for this transgression, which would be great! I'll likely be proven right in a few days, though.

Rather than focus on how America's got a price on her to turn the other way when her people are savagely targetted and murdered by other countries, I'd rather see conservatives on here justify this treachery. How is letting Saudi Arabia get away with murdering Americans the right thing to do?

Y'all want to get the rest of America on the anti-Middle East train, this is your ticket: even the most progressive of us are demanding some form of retribution for this (as are a few Republicans, to their credit, though for how long before they toe the party line again...). I'll give y'all full credit if you're actually bipartisan/principled on it, but I'll be honest - I'm more here for the dancing around y'all will do in order to stick with Mr. 45 on it.

Before it crops up, yes, I'm aware the Saudi government gave a veiled threat of economically retaliating if we take any action, to which I ask when that's ever stopped Mr. 45 before? He tariffs countries all the time (enemy and ally alike) and soaks up billions in losses from retaliation already, so why run scared of it now when there's actually a goddamn good reason to do it, with the Democratic/Progressive/Neoconservative blessing, even?

Anyway, let's see how people dance around THIS one! 👍

[EdyKel]

I was going to write a topic about this a bit later because it was becoming interesting, but you beat me to it. 🙂

Outside of the difficulty of dealing with a country that can easily tank our country's economy, with their control of Middle East oil, and their hold over 52 billion in American stocks, the financial interest held by Trump, and other White House officials, in Saudi Arabia is going to limit their response to all this - not to mention that they don't want to jeopardized the 300 billion dollar U.S. arms deal, over 10 years, that Trump made with them.

Trump has been wavering all week from threats of action to downplaying the whole thing. Sure, members from both parties in congress may be up in arms over this, but I don't see a whole lot that well be done if Trump decides to do little to nothing over it. And considering how close to the election we are I don't see any branch of government controlled by Republicans doing anything - don't expect Ryan or McConnell to bring it up in congress, or anything that isn't eye candy.

Conservatives, or Trump supporters, are going to go along with anything Trump does, even if that country continues this long list of human right's abuse. They have already gone along with other Trump policies that are morally repugnant, so this is not going to even make them do anything different, even if they don't like that country. And Trump is not going to suddenly be enveloped by empathy, or sympathy, or a sense of morality, considering he is very much a narcissistic sociopath.

There was also an interesting article on Yahoo that pointed out how Trump's "America first" policy is hurting the US brand name of condemning human right abuse.

Also, another interesting article about how the Saudi government just gave the US government a 100 million, during this whole event. Hmmmm....

[TheReviewTrickster]

Oh my god, yeah, I saw an ad for the guy's disappearance on the Washington post's website. Or maybe that was a different guy. So you're saying he was dismembered? Poor guy.

[Gimmick]

At 10/19/18 11:56 AM, Sause wrote: Trust me, “the Saudi problem” will fix itself before long.

Not without taking everyone else down with them.

[FUNKbrs]

Republican presidents always start a middle eastern war to drive up oil prices so the refineries in Houston can make bank.

This literally happens every time.

[Gario]

At 10/19/18 09:14 AM, Thereviewtrickster wrote: Oh my god, yeah, I saw an ad for the guy's disappearance on the Washington post's website. Or maybe that was a different guy. So you're saying he was dismembered? Poor guy.

The current story is that he went into the consulate for paperwork to legitimize his upcoming marriage, then he was apprehended and tortured to death (newest intel says part of the torture was cutting his fingers off while he was alive). Equip with a bonesaw (they brought this with them, so this was obviously premeditated) the 15 assassins dismembered him and spread his body in pieces throughout Turkey. Turkey officials claim they have audio recording of the torture (which our secretary of state has listened to), and they've already released the footage of the journalist and assassins going into the consolate, as well as the long stretch of footage showing the journalist never came out.

And yeah, likely the same guy; it was a WaPo reporter and contributor. Hope that brings you up to speed.

[ChazDude]

First Saudi Arabia claim he left the consulate by the back door, now they're claiming he was killed 'in a fight'. According to Middle East Eye, he was dismembered alive and another Turkish newspaper says that his remains were then incinerated, with the consulate putting on a barbecue to cover the smell from it.

Saudi Arabia is a country that the UK sells weapons to.

Shame.

[Heretic-Anchorite]

At 10/21/18 04:56 AM, MrPercie wrote:
Doesn't help that saddam was a loose cannon, I went to the ducksworth air museum yesterday and there was a massive piece of tubular metal which supposedly was apart of the super gun saddam was trying to make, a bit like the Hitler cannons that could shoot as far as england, and a bit like a Ottoman bronze Bombard as its so large and heavy that it has to be made in separate pieces bolted together.

But If the US was truly concerned over stability they could of easily worked with the Baathist; many of which wanted the throw a coup anyway.

There was even a proposed coup where They where willing to work with a CIA op and all the US had to do was recognize them to give them legitimacy. This is a good book about it by the now former op himself

Also, none of this really comes as a shock to me considering how what the israelis did to the USS Liberty a long while back

[EdyKel]

At 10/21/18 04:56 AM, MrPercie wrote:

Doesn't help that saddam was a loose cannon, I went to the ducksworth air museum yesterday and there was a massive piece of tubular metal which supposedly was apart of the super gun saddam was trying to make, a bit like the Hitler cannons that could shoot as far as england, and a bit like a Ottoman bronze Bombard as its so large and heavy that it has to be made in separate pieces bolted together.

Yes, Sadam was a loose cannon, which the US was reluctant to support, but needed to keep Iran in check - after the US fucked up in that country by installing a puppet shah, which led to an Islamic revolution that took it over. So, one mistake after the other, all for oil, with the latest mistake claiming Saddam had, or had the means to create, WMDs, which turned out to be one huge lie, which also relegated the meaning of our original purpose in the MiddleEast after the 9-11 attacks into an afterthought. It makes you wonder who really was the loose cannon in the world.

[EdyKel]

So... It's gotten more bizarre. In an attempt to try and fool people, the Saudi government dressed up a decoy to look like Khashoggi exiting the consultant - even wearing a fake beard. It makes you wonder just how competent the Saudi spy agency is.

[Tony-DarkGrave]

At 10/23/18 02:50 PM, Zornuzkull wrote: the one consolidation from all this is that no president can ever fuck up as badly as Bush did...
i never thought id ever see another republican in the whitehouse again after that debacle...
and i havent just a billionaire former democrat thats had a chip on his shoulder ever since Obama roasted his ass...

It's like the fates are being controlled by a bunch of hilarious trolls.

[Tony-DarkGrave]

At 10/23/18 06:55 PM, Zornuzkull wrote: does the electoral college qualify as that?

I wouldn't think so due to it being constitutional procedure for elections, that idea was the founding fathers.

[EdyKel]

At 10/23/18 06:55 PM, Zornuzkull wrote:

At 10/23/18 05:34 PM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote:

At 10/23/18 02:50 PM, Zornuzkull wrote:

It's like the fates are being controlled by a bunch of hilarious trolls.

does the electoral college qualify as that?

There's a lot of debate on that.

The founders general distrusted the masses. They didn't consider the average person to be that smart, or knowledgeable, about laws or policies - and back then, this was a huge country, where it could take weeks for information, and election results, to travel from one point to another. Also, it's a state right, as many of our founders were pretty distrustful of each other, and other states, and did not want a state with a bigger population always winning the presidential race.

Today's, it's even more confusing, because every state can do it's own thing. Normally, the candidate who gets the most votes gets all the states electoral votes, but in other states they can split them up with certain electoral representatives going with whatever candidate- I never really understood it.

There's been a lot of talk of scrapping the electoral system, and going with the popular votes, because it seems to favor Republicans more, as Democrats almost always win the popular vote, but that's not going to happen any time soon..

[EdyKel]

At 10/23/18 08:36 PM, Zornuzkull wrote:

At 10/23/18 07:45 PM, EdyKel wrote: There's been a lot of talk of scrapping the electoral system, and going with the popular votes, because it seems to favor Republicans more, as Democrats almost always win the popular vote, but that's not going to happen any time soon..

yeah its not likely to happen with trump in charge... since he didn't win by the popular vote...
ive been reading into the differences between presidential and parliamentary systems...
the bad news is with a presidential system you can get bogged down in polarization that results in gridlock you also have the huge problem of authoritarianism creeping in...
also its much harder to kick out a president who is fucking up...
its like a spiral of bullshit that may eventually lead to civil war...
there is a reason why these systems were phased out in Europe over the years...
most have either adopted a parliamentary system or a half presidential and half parliamentary system...
i think the only nation in Europe that still has a full presidential system is Cyprus...

My knowledge of the parliamentary system is rather limited, but I don't think there is a huge chasm of difference between it our constitutional republic.

The problem here is that some of the rules are being ignored. Like, it used to be 60 votes (or a super majority) to confirm a Supreme Court Nominee, or legislature, not a simple majority, but that all changed when Republicans got into power and trashed the whole thing. It should never have been changed. Some will blame the Democrats for breaking the rules on Obamacare, and some court nominees, after meeting just fierce partisan opposition from Republicans on everything they did (Extreme partisanship that erupted when Obama became president - not that Obama, or Democrats, were extreme in any way). And that extreme partisanship has continued to this day, accumulating into the Trump presidency.

As I pointed out before, a lot of this is very much centered on identity politics, or cultural views - all used as a tool by politicians to get people to support them, and things that are not in their best interests. The other problem is that we no have a divisive president, who's not only being defended by Republicans who fear losing power, but also a president who continues to try and undermine our democracy, by pandering to conspiracy theories about out elections and voter fraud, and attacking out press and calling it fake news to hide his own lies. And his supporters are blindly eating it up. And Republicans don't have the backbone to stand up to him.

[Gario]

Well, we got revoked visas for officials implicated in the killing. We should move further in the punitive department, but this is definitely a good step in the right direction - Mr. 45 might actually authorize something against Saudi Arabia after all.

Hey, if they actually sanction the country (as is being discussed) I wouldn't mind eating my words and being wrong - I'd definitely give him credit for it. I still doubt it'd happen, but crossing my fingers, here.

[billybobthwarten]

At 10/24/18 12:54 AM, Gario wrote:
Hey, if they actually sanction the country (as is being discussed) I wouldn't mind eating my words and being wrong - I'd definitely give him credit for it. I still doubt it'd happen, but crossing my fingers, here.

We shall see how it goes.

He has been handing out some "act right".

[EdyKel]

At 10/24/18 12:19 AM, Zornuzkull wrote:

At 10/23/18 11:28 PM, EdyKel wrote: And his supporters are blindly eating it up. And Republicans don't have the backbone to stand up to him.

i dont think they are... its just stubbornness at this point sure they backed a shitty horse but if they look really closely there has to be a silver lining buried under this pile of manure somewhere... i think there are a lot more dissatisfied republicans than even they would like to admit... of course there are gonna be trolls hoping to net a few liberal tears but deep down they know this has been a fucking disaster... not that any would like to admit it...

If you held the other side to some standard, and always pointed out the flaws and alarming things they do, but you then ignore the same stuff from Trump and Republicans, is that stubbornness or just acceptance? Besides the obvious double standards, the reason they continue to support him is because they back him out of pride, or pettiness against the other side, or they believe in some of the things he does. But mostly, because they want to believe that they will get something put of it, even if it's mostly superficial.

You look at evangelists and Christians, as they sell off their souls to get conservative supreme court justices justices, and
policies that favor them and their views of morality.

You look at white nationalist, who now march in the street with confidence, who back Trump because of his xenophobic policies.

You look at gun right's activists, who only care about that one right, and will sacrifice others rights just to keep it, while politicizing the other side for politicizing mass shootings.

You look at the average Republican who may have benefited from unions or certain worker and consumer protections, or who are now on a social safety net programs, back policies that attack those things while always talking about culture and how bad big government is - as it continues to expand under Trump in a different direction, and corporations gain more power.

You look at the young Trump supporters (mostly libertarians) who live off of generalizations and fantasy, and pettiness against the other side because of perceived slights against them, while not having any long term plans other than just wanting what sounds good to them at the moment and not giving a shit about how it might affect other people or groups.

It all comes down to not giving a shit about other cultures, other races, other religions, and dictating how things should benefit only you and certain groups, which is why they go along with Trump and everything he does, while arguing that the other sides does the same things as an excuse for why they accept worse shit from Trump and Republicans.

[EdyKel]

At 10/24/18 04:18 PM, Dynastywarriors5 wrote:

At 10/18/18 11:05 PM, EdyKel wrote: There was also an interesting article on Yahoo that pointed out how Trump's "America first" policy is hurting the US brand name of condemning human right abuse.

America has been trading with China for decades, what's the difference?

And we have done the same for Saudi Arabia. But, past presidents tried to at least balance it out with humanitarian aid, and policies that tried to help people out. Trump doesn't even do that, as he tries to get rid of those things to save a buck, or out of pettiness.

[Stereocrisis]

I for one would not want to be a member anyhow.

[EdyKel]

Looks like the Saudi will cover this up by prosecuting Khashoggi's killers, while the US praises Saudi's decision to let his son leave that country.

[EdyKel]

Trump is ignoring the CIA's report that Crown Prince Mohammed was most likely involved in the the plot to kill Khashoggi. There are also rumors that Trump is considering to extradite a Turkish cleric back to Turkey to appease Turkish president Tayyip Erdogan, to get him to back off the the whole Khashoggi assassination plot by Saudi Arabia.

[EdyKel]

So, Trump is going full tilt in support of Saudi Arabia, claiming that punishing them over something he's not convinced of will hurt the US economy - namely, the US arms trade deal he made with them. All of this is splitting his party apart, with many Republicans denouncing Trump's position on it.

[Gario]

ITT we bitch about a journalist who was martyr'd for his work exposing Saudi Arabia getting on the front page of Time magazine, I guess. Strange flex, but okay.

Really, though, I just wanted to come back and confirm what I had said earlier in here:

At 10/18/18 08:36 PM, Gario wrote:
I'm quite for the idea of sanctioning Saudi Arabia for this, since this is a direct assault on an America resident, and frankly we need to have our country at our backs, when push comes to shove. Let's be honest, though; Trump is hinting he's going to essentially absolve the Saudi leadership for... reasons... or I could be totally wrong and Mr. 45 will sign off on sanctions against them in order to punish them for this transgression, which would be great! I'll likely be proven right in a few days, though.

So how 'bout those Saudi Arabia sanctions and punishment to the leadership of Saudi Arabia for the murder, folks? Oh wait, Paul Ryan snuck a measure into a fucking farm bill with language abdicating Congress' ability to enact punishment against Saudi Arabia in Yemen (which protects Saudi Arabia's leaders), and Mr. 45 played defense throughout, using inflated numbers on defense spending to justify why we should stick it out, and putting down American intelligence in the face of Saudi officials' lying accounts.

Am I a fuckin' Nostradamus or what.

[EdyKel]

At 12/12/18 05:44 PM, Gario wrote: So how 'bout those Saudi Arabia sanctions and punishment to the leadership of Saudi Arabia for the murder, folks? Oh wait, Paul Ryan snuck a measure into a fucking farm bill with language abdicating Congress' ability to enact punishment against Saudi Arabia in Yemen (which protects Saudi Arabia's leaders), and Mr. 45 played defense throughout, using inflated numbers on defense spending to justify why we should stick it out, and putting down American intelligence in the face of Saudi officials' lying accounts.

Am I a fuckin' Nostradamus or what.

More like stating the obvious. :)

The US has always had very close ties with that country, despite the numerous human right abuses, and lack of a Democracy. They are still one of our strongest allies in the region, and a buffer against Iran - which our other important ally, Israel, is for. They are also one of our bigger customers for arms sale. But most importantly, they control the economic stability of the world with their large control of the world's oil supply. All of of this can easily cow most weak willed politicians into complacency.

And then we have Trump, who greatly admires strongmen leaders, and is more concerned with bragging about his accomplishments and getting his way, with little to no concern over Human right's abuse. And he is always criticizing our intelligence agencies with conspiracy theories,or undermining them, when they don't tell him what he wants to hear.

[msd8115]

Even as a conservative I'm really hoping swag daddy trump puts down the big mean sanctions on the saudis, I feel like they get away with too much and people turn a blind eye way too often solely because of their economy in oil.

[EdyKel]

Not sure where to put this, but I thought it was kinda interesting, and it relates to Saudi Arabia right now.

Saudis gained access to Amazon CEO Bezos' phone: Bezos' security chief. If true, I wonder why a country friendly to Trump would do that...