At 1/14/14 04:00 PM, lapis wrote:

At 1/14/14 03:16 PM, WallofYawn wrote: On the other hand, when they make it to hell, they don't stay there forever. An idea of karma is there, where the infidels are eventually burning off bad karma and allowed to join heaven at the end of it all.

Wow, I'd like to know what verses you were thinking about when you wrote this. Especially about infidels in general, but also about just Jews and Christians, because I'm pretty sure mainstream Islamic theology maintains that verses like, for example, 2:62 and 5:69 mean that they just go to a slightly less painful layer of Hell than the Arab idolators.

I can't remember the verse but I picked up said copy of kuran at a local library. Didn't go too deep into it, but it said something along the lines of. "and their nostrils shall be burned and blah blah" but maybe I misread. more than likely it's out of context because I do know that most punishments are saved for hell and the devil.(who is called by another name I cannot think of right now)

Maybe I'll go back in and re-read it sometime to refresh myself. But they do believe in a vengeful god, like the one in the old testament, but most of it occurs concurrently with the new testament.(aka Christianity) although you are correct that they go to hell, and that's where they are to be punished until they burn off their bad karma and arise in heaven.

At 1/15/14 01:52 PM, lapis wrote:

At 1/15/14 01:46 PM, WallofYawn wrote: the devil.(who is called by another name I cannot think of right now)

Shaytan? Iblis?

and that's where they are to be punished until they burn off their bad karma and arise in heaven.

This is what I wanted you to source. I'm pretty sure mainstream Islamic theology maintains that non-Muslims never enter Paradise. I'd love to see an argument that disputes this.

The Old Testament is a Christian term for a collection of religious writings by ancient Israelites

So lets not forget that the American's are fighting for the exact same ideologies as the Muslims.

At 1/15/14 01:52 PM, lapis wrote:

At 1/15/14 01:46 PM, WallofYawn wrote: the devil.(who is called by another name I cannot think of right now)

Shaytan? Iblis?

Yea, Ah Shaytan I think was common even for jews tho. Iblis is what most muslims call him now.

and that's where they are to be punished until they burn off their bad karma and arise in heaven.

This is what I wanted you to source. I'm pretty sure mainstream Islamic theology maintains that non-Muslims never enter Paradise. I'd love to see an argument that disputes this.

Well, I didn't even consider non-muslims when making that statement.

The only conclusion I can make right now, without prior investigation into the matter, is the point that most muslims DO accept the Christian bible as factual, and concurrent with what the kuran is stating.(though they changed a few key things and ideas, such as why the devil got kicked out of heaven(not bowing before adam) and that jesus is not the true prophet)

In fact, some even go as far as to state that one should have extensive knowledge of the new testament, before they can fully comprehend the full extent of the kuran and it's message. I have no idea whether the kuran explicitly excludes Christians from Paradise, but I think it would suffice to say that at least jews and all other non-muslims and non-Christians are excluded from paradise.

Most muslims I believe view Christianity as a cousin to islam, but not complete. So kuran would be the true or complete version, Christianity the almost complete version, and Judaism as the basic or starting point. Jews don't believe in heaven or hell anyway, so I guess it doesn't matter. But they're all Abrahamic, all worship basically the same god, and all put great emphasis and respect on Abraham.(thus the separation of Abrahamic, and all others are thus pagan, with exclusion to Hinduism, Buddhism, and confusionism, etc.)

This is based on conversations had with muslims, and my mother was engaged to a man from Iran in the 70's, so I got some info from her.(don't think we've discussed this in depth tho)

If I find any credible sources or such, I'll PM you with the details, but right now I'm not 100%

At 1/15/14 04:02 PM, WallofYawn wrote:

In fact, some even go as far as to state that one should have extensive knowledge of the new testament, before they can fully comprehend the full extent of the kuran and it's message.

The new testament is based on the books of the old testament but with many thousands of mistranslations and fabrications. The Old Testament was based off the writings by Israeli prophets which were the same prophets that wrote the Koran. To understand the Koran you need to read the Quran but the New Testament is full of bollocks misinterpretations and flat out lies.

At 1/15/14 06:23 PM, X-Gary-Gigax-X wrote:

At 1/15/14 04:22 PM, leanlifter1 wrote:

When I hear you talk, I can't help but be reminded of Pliny the Younger

You done trolling and spreading miss information. You gettin paid by the Government to spread pro American propaganda ?

At 1/15/14 06:31 PM, X-Gary-Gigax-X wrote:

At 1/15/14 06:25 PM, leanlifter1 wrote:

At 1/15/14 06:23 PM, X-Gary-Gigax-X wrote:

At 1/15/14 04:22 PM, leanlifter1 wrote:

When I hear you talk, I can't help but be reminded of Pliny the Younger

You done trolling and spreading miss information. You gettin paid by the Government to spread pro American propaganda ?

If this thread has been 6 pages of....this ^ then I'm glad I stayed out of it.

Not until you came here nope. Got anything to add to the posts that you are not involved in your ... ?

At 1/15/14 04:02 PM, WallofYawn wrote: Yea, Ah Shaytan I think was common even for jews tho. Iblis is what most muslims call him now.

Shaytan is a class of jinn. Iblis is the name of the devil in Islam. He was a jinn who refused to obey the command of God. Interestingly enough, some Sufi thought sympathises with Iblis because his refusal to bow to God is interpreted not because he hated God but he loved God and that extreme love can bring about envy and jealousy and it was his jealousy that caused him to deny God's command.

At 1/15/14 04:22 PM, leanlifter1 wrote:

At 1/15/14 04:02 PM, WallofYawn wrote:

In fact, some even go as far as to state that one should have extensive knowledge of the new testament, before they can fully comprehend the full extent of the kuran and it's message.

The new testament is based on the books of the old testament but with many thousands of mistranslations and fabrications. The Old Testament was based off the writings by Israeli prophets which were the same prophets that wrote the Koran. To understand the Koran you need to read the Quran but the New Testament is full of bollocks misinterpretations and flat out lies.

I'm well aware of that, actually it's my personal opinion that both were created to prevent war and assume power.(by uniting pagan peoples into belief in one god and one religious viewpoint, while wiping the others out, but I won't deviate into that discussion at this time.)

I will say that the quran, like the old testament, talks of the rapture, and that was the main correlation I was making between the two. The rapture story is almost the same in both, is it not? As far as the language goes, it's definitely more concise because it wasn't translated from Hebrew or Arabic into latin and then into old English over many years like the Christian bible was, so I am not surprised that the Christian bible is full of mistranslations. It was all supposedly written by people living in caves out in the desert thousands of years ago so there's something to think about.

As for the Quran, the verses were at first I believe passed down orally before there was supposedly a written language,so it proibably had to be very concise, and it reads a lot differently for sure.

At 1/16/14 02:08 PM, WallofYawn wrote:

I will say that the quran, like the old testament,

*new testament, meant to say new testament