Gender Reassignment Surgery?

[NotoriousRedFox]

How do you feel about it?

I'm a staunch liberal. I fully support gay marriage and the "LGB" community, but not with the "T" attached. Why is that even in the same category? A person wanting to change their gender is completely different from one's sexual orientation.

Through "gender reassignment surgery" you're not actually changing your gender. You're just mutilating your body through surgery. If you're a man, you're still going to have XY chromosomes and women will still have XX chromosomes.

You may argue that if it doesn't hurt or affect anyone else, then why make it illegal? (although that argument often ignores the tremendous stress on family members). I feel that everyone is looking at the problem the wrong way. People with gender identity conflicts should be treated as people with a disorder that need help âEU" much like the help we give to people with Body Integrity Identity Disorder (people who want surgery done to cut off their own limbs; currently no surgeon in the U.S.A. will perform that kind of surgery). The two disorders are actually very similar in nature (so why is one given widespread support and the other is illegal?)

I'm not sure what specific treatment is given to people with BIID âEU" I'd imagine therapy, maybe some kind of medication? But these are the methods we should use to help with gender identity conflicts. One should appreciate the way they were born, not mutilate their body to resemble something they are not and never truly will be.

[Mumbo]

At 5/7/12 06:20 PM, NotoriousRedFox wrote: You may argue that if it doesn't hurt or affect anyone else,

It hurts me. I want to know what gender I am doing.

[GodlessDeity]

At 5/7/12 06:20 PM, NotoriousRedFox wrote: How do you feel about it?

I'm not sure what specific treatment is given to people with BIID âEU" I'd imagine therapy, maybe some kind of medication? But these are the methods we should use to help with gender identity conflicts. One should appreciate the way they were born, not mutilate their body to resemble something they are not and never truly will be.

I don't believe in gender identity crisis no more than personality disorders. People have conflcits that creates these eruptions of conflicts. Instead of becoming a person you are not, or a gender you are not, it is best to consult the conflcit that creates these psychological nuances to begin with!

[IAmSapphireBlvd]

not my fucking body. do what you want.

it's retarded that you want to legislate the personal decisions of others. if someone feels gender reassignment makes them a happier person because of how conflicted they are, why would you possibly want to make it a criminal offense for them to do so? it's not a disorder in that they can still exercise logic. they just chemically assume a different gender role than the one they were given. it's a really shitty position to be in and those people should be allowed to do whatever they want to their own bodies because i genuinely do not give a shit.

[Narusegawa]

On the matter of your doubts on the actuality of the disorder, as far as physiological causes go there is a theory which claims that these kinds of 'disorders' may arise from a endocrine system (hormonal) condition where people from birth have a 'deficiency' of their sex hormone (testosterone or estrogen).

Looking at gender reassignment, I feel it can be justified provided there are strong physiological grounds for it (so much that it wouldn't be called a gender reassignment surgery anymore but whatever). I fear that too often the culturally imposed gender roles play a larger role than physiological factors when people want these surgeries, which in my book does not warrant gender reassignment. Generally, the way most of the world is now culturally, that should not come as a surprise though.

[IAmSapphireBlvd]

At 5/7/12 06:33 PM, RacistBassist wrote: Be wary, the PC crowd is going to come and try to castrate you for being bigoted.

how is it politically correct to not want to restrict personal freedoms? isn't censorship, which does the exact opposite, considered politically correct?

or are you just throwing around the term "politically correct" to dismiss the beliefs of other people before they get a chance to speak because you're a knob shit?

?

[GodlessDeity]

At 5/7/12 06:47 PM, IAmSapphireBlvd wrote: not my fucking body. do what you want.

> Assuming that people can make AND encourage actions because of VAGUE experiences studies still do not FULLY understand!

So if an individual in the hospital was like ''Give me that *insert medicine here*!'' Because they PERSONALLY thought it would make them HAPPIER. Does that mean the people should give them the medicine that would actually KILL them?

Anyone who thinks people can make decisions on their own all of the time is truly in a very dark rabbit hole.

[IAmSapphireBlvd]

At 5/7/12 06:47 PM, Narusegawa wrote: On the matter of your doubts on the actuality of the disorder, as far as physiological causes go there is a theory which claims that these kinds of 'disorders' may arise from a endocrine system (hormonal) condition where people from birth have a 'deficiency' of their sex hormone (testosterone or estrogen).

Yes. But actual gender reassignment is largely an issue of esteem. Some people who are in this position can cope with having a body that they don't want and other people can't. The OP also suggests therapy without realizing that these people go through therapy their entire lives and gender reassignment is often an appropriate ends to a mean. None of us can fathom what it's like to not be okay with your body to that degree, who's to say it's too extreme?

[IAmSapphireBlvd]

At 5/7/12 06:52 PM, GodlessDeity wrote: > Assuming that people can make AND encourage actions because of VAGUE experiences studies still do not FULLY understand!

Anyone who thinks people can make decisions on their own all of the time is truly in a very dark rabbit hole.

> Assuming any doctor would give a patient a gender reassignment without EXTENSIVE psychoanalysis and therapy beforehand.

Patients make the decision. Doctors decide if the decision is right for the patient.

Back to the drawing board with your argument, then?

[PleasantPeasant]

So long, balls.

[GodlessDeity]

At 5/7/12 06:56 PM, IAmSapphireBlvd wrote:

At 5/7/12 06:52 PM, GodlessDeity wrote: > Assuming that people can make AND encourage actions because of VAGUE experiences studies still do not FULLY understand!

Anyone who thinks people can make decisions on their own all of the time is truly in a very dark rabbit hole.

> Assuming any doctor would give a patient a gender reassignment without EXTENSIVE psychoanalysis and therapy beforehand.

Patients make the decision. Doctors decide if the decision is right for the patient.

Back to the drawing board with your argument, then?

You do not understand the POINT.

People are always blowing shit out of proportion!

Then people like you - that don't give a shit - use your not-giving-a-shit manner and end up encouraging what studies upon a series of studies that are brothers to other studies that came from the grandfather of studies THAT DO NOT FULLY COMPREHEND IT. When you have no idea what you are talking about. Nobody does. Sure, perhaps the people who experience this gender identity confusion and what have you, but you, yourself, do not UNDERSTAND it and do not KNOW the egos and angst people have always developing in them. People are ticking bombs, and will insist that it is a VERY BIG PROBLEM. When it may not even be that big, they just make it worse by thinking that it is.

You do not know how far the ignorance of people can run. : ) Don't try to act like you know what you are talking about when this entire situation is a mystery to even those who experience it.

[toxisfuckingdumb]

At 5/7/12 07:02 PM, RacistBassist wrote: I now ask you, do you feel the same way about other surgeries that mutilate body parts, such as fe/male castration or the destruction of body parts on a whim?

How exactly do those benefit the patient (like gender reassignment very much can) again? Enlighten me.

[toxisfuckingdumb]

At 5/7/12 07:00 PM, GodlessDeity wrote: You do not understand the POINT.

lol

You do not know how far the ignorance of people can run. : ) Don't try to act like you know what you are talking about when this entire situation is a mystery to even those who experience it.

"None of us can fathom what it's like to not be okay with your body to that degree"-Me, the post you are replying to

I completely understand your point. You're telling me something I never disagreed with. I'm just saying if gender reassignment is what people want to go through with there is no reason why we should prohibit them from doing such because I'd imagine those people are at the end of their rope already when they're even considering things like this.

Also suicide and manic depression are prevalent in people with extreme gender identity problems. So yeah, I'd say it's a pretty big problem for those people and not something that I'm blowing out of proportion. It's not like I'm saying it extends beyond the very small minority of people who have gender identity issues. I'm just saying it would really suck to be in that position and it kind of annoys me when people like the OP come along and examine the situation from this rigid standpoint of intolerance and misunderstanding.

At the end of the day, I think people should do whatever makes them feel happy without harming others. Modern surgery is so advanced that it's difficult to argue that gender reassignment is a physical harm to the individual.

I'm not even that passionate about this issue fyi it's just nobody is on my side and arguing on the internet is really fun.

[GodlessDeity]

At 5/7/12 07:13 PM, toxisfuckingdumb wrote:

At 5/7/12 07:00 PM, GodlessDeity wrote: You do not understand the POINT.

lol

You do not know how far the ignorance of people can run. : ) Don't try to act like you know what you are talking about when this entire situation is a mystery to even those who experience it.

"None of us can fathom what it's like to not be okay with your body to that degree"-Me, the post you are replying to

I completely understand your point. You're telling me something I never disagreed with. I'm just saying if gender reassignment is what people want to go through with there is no reason why we should prohibit them from doing such because I'd imagine those people are at the end of their rope already when they're even considering things like this.

Don't you prefer to question how they've reached the end of the rope to begin with? The rope is as long as you allow it to be. No more different than the wick of one's internal bomb. If people control their anger, their wick is much more longer. Same goes for those who are letting life devour them, because they technically step out side, turn around, bend down and say ''Come and get it!'' That is short from self-defeatism actually. It is only sad if people give up on life, because they only THINK they are experiencing an identity or gender crisis. When it MAY NOT even be that. People are always going to be cockroaches when they have no captain to steer their way in life.

Also suicide and manic depression are prevalent in people with extreme gender identity problems. So yeah, I'd say it's a pretty big problem for those people and not something that I'm blowing out of proportion. It's not like I'm saying it extends beyond the very small minority of people who have gender identity issues. I'm just saying it would really suck to be in that position and it kind of annoys me when people like the OP come along and examine the situation from this rigid standpoint of intolerance and misunderstanding.

Again, alot of our emotions can be controlled. They choose not to control their emotions, to get a hold of themselves. Can you argue that they should stop complaining about it and realise that they aren't some special problem. There are individuals out there with REAL life anguish impeding on their individual wills as a human being. While they complain about something NOBODY IS EVEN SURE OF - not even them.

At the end of the day, I think people should do whatever makes them feel happy without harming others. Modern surgery is so advanced that it's difficult to argue that gender reassignment is a physical harm to the individual.

I disagree. People are becoming more and more lazy, cowards, irresponsible - always coming up with excuses, hiding their true colours, etc! You are encouraging the very thing we should be confronting. We should not give them the benefit of the doubt for making their choices, they need to stop being headless chickens.

I'm not even that passionate about this issue fyi it's just nobody is on my side and arguing on the internet is really fun.

+ 1. Arguing with people OVERALL is really great. : )

[toxisfuckingdumb]

At 5/7/12 07:23 PM, RacistBassist wrote: Name any single benefit whatsoever that gender reassignment surgery has?

It's therapeutic to the point where it positively changes the lives of people who go through with it (who the procedure is appropriate for.)

It helps treat gender identity disorder. That is the benefit. That is the only reason why people have the surgery to begin with. It's pretty straightforward.

[NotoriousRedFox]

At 5/7/12 07:13 PM, toxisfuckingdumb wrote: I'm just saying it would really suck to be in that position and it kind of annoys me when people like the OP come along and examine the situation from this rigid standpoint of intolerance and misunderstanding.

Rigid standpoint of intolerance and misunderstanding? You obviously didn't read my post (at least not carefully). I feel great sympathy for these people and all the angst that comes with their problem. However, they should not be encouraged to go and mutilate themselves to feel "normal." Somebody posted earlier that things such as testosterone/estrogen imbalances can be contributing factors that lead to the condition. These people are only desperately convinced they need reassignment surgery because whatever abnormality/imbalance in their body is making think that way. We should instead help them by correcting their internal physiological imbalance/problem (and whatever other measures available to treat their condition). Once treated, I have no doubt they would be shocked they had such thoughts/urges in the first and will be infinitely grateful they didn't go ahead with the surgery.

At the end of the day, I think people should do whatever makes them feel happy without harming others.

So I guess people with BIID should have their limbs sawn off because they want to, right? If someone wants to kill themself they might as well just do that, too, huh?

Modern surgery is so advanced that it's difficult to argue that gender reassignment is a physical harm to the individual.

Of course it's injuring them. Doing anything to alter your body from it's natural birth state is injuring yourself (except for important and necessary measures such as removing a cancerous tumor or appendicitis).

[II2none]

At 5/7/12 06:20 PM, NotoriousRedFox wrote: How do you feel about it?

It's pretty sad that a person is so insecure with themselves that they decide to play dress up. I don't agree with it and wouldn't advise it to people I care about, then again I've never been in that situation. There's lots of speculation whether the desire is something you can control or born with because of chromosome disorder, be great if the men in white can nail this and the issue on why folks turn gay down.

[SpartanBunny]

At 5/7/12 07:23 PM, RacistBassist wrote:

At 5/7/12 07:05 PM, toxisfuckingdumb wrote: How exactly do those benefit the patient (like gender reassignment very much can) again? Enlighten me.

Name any single benefit whatsoever that gender reassignment surgery has? "because the person wants it" is about all there is. I found some articles on a few websites that link to the APA, but unfortunately, that link seemed to go bye bye in the past few months (Unless some time travel shenanigans took place and one of the websites knew about Fluke's testimony beforehand) It's a form of plastic surgery. Do I agree with it? Not at all. Do I find it retarded? Yes. Both of those apply to removal of limbs also.

What more benefit does it need to have, exactly? A person wants to feel comfortable in their own body and if the surgery helps them do this, so be it. If the person wants to fill the role of a different gender in society then why the fuck not. They don't necessarily need to be able to reproduce if they just want to express how they see themselves. You will most likely never be in that state of mind, so you won't truly understand. It doesn't matter whether or not you agree.

[shinobody]

I'd really love to give OP 0/10 troll rating...
But seeing shitstorm it caused, I'm not sure.

Why would someone care what other adult people want do with their genitals under medical supervision, is beyond me.
Lack of control over their own lives?

[NotoriousRedFox]

At 5/7/12 09:21 PM, shinobody wrote: I'd really love to give OP 0/10 troll rating...

I'm not a troll, though. Only someone curious of people's diverse opinions on a controversial topic.

[shinobody]

At 5/7/12 06:20 PM, NotoriousRedFox wrote: Through "gender reassignment surgery" you're not actually changing your gender. You're just mutilating your body through surgery.

Wait, what bodies have to do with gender? Bodies are about biological sex, not about gender. Brains are about gender, and GRS is about changing the bodies to match the brains, wasn't it?

[karlu20]

At 5/7/12 06:20 PM, NotoriousRedFox wrote: Through "gender reassignment surgery" you're not actually changing your gender.

True, but someone who has GID is already the gender they're seeking to look like. It's their sex/ appearance that's the issue.

You're just mutilating your body through surgery.

That drastically oversimplifies things.

If you're a man, you're still going to have XY chromosomes and women will still have XX chromosomes.

Read me.

although that argument often ignores the tremendous stress on family members

It isn't the family members' body or life. The decision is not theirs to make.

treated as people with a disorder that need help âEU" much like the help we give to people with Body Integrity Identity Disorder

Different things require different treatments.

One should appreciate the way they were born, not mutilate their body to resemble something they are not and never truly will be.

In your opinion.

[GodlessDeity]

At 5/7/12 11:41 PM, bgraybr wrote: it's not gonna hurt anyone.

This position is very problematic.

you can not be any more wrong

[shinobody]

Mind elaborating?

[GodlessDeity]

At 5/8/12 12:15 AM, shinobody wrote: Mind elaborating?

Is this referring to my post?

[shinobody]

At 5/8/12 12:17 AM, GodlessDeity wrote: Is this referring to my post?

Take a wild guess.
Of course it's about your post. You're telling "you're wrong" and don't provide any arguments.

[GodlessDeity]

At 5/8/12 12:18 AM, shinobody wrote:

At 5/8/12 12:17 AM, GodlessDeity wrote: Is this referring to my post?

Take a wild guess.
Of course it's about your post. You're telling "you're wrong" and don't provide any arguments.

People make stupid choices.

People are generally stupid.

What were you expecting? A giant wall of text for you to just disagree on in a society that supports ''I don't give a shit!''?

[shinobody]

At 5/8/12 12:20 AM, GodlessDeity wrote: People make stupid choices.

People are generally stupid.

What were you expecting? A giant wall of text for you to just disagree on in a society that supports ''I don't give a shit!''?

You are stupid, because you've made stupid choice to make this thread.
My arguments right now make as much sense as yours.

Also, I'm stupid because I'm even replying to this flamebait

[NotoriousRedFox]

At 5/8/12 12:08 AM, karlu20 wrote: Read me.

Touche. You're the only person who has responded with some counterpoints that have seriously impressed me. Some of your information I agree with, other aspects I still do not. But you have successfully swayed me to a further empathetic position towards transsexuals and their enormous urge. Perhaps one day when the technology exists to give someone a complete 100% physiological reversal of gender (which, unfortunately, probably won't exist for hundreds of years), I would support that.

[ILove2Grok]

At 5/8/12 12:22 AM, bgraybr wrote:

At 5/8/12 12:20 AM, GodlessDeity wrote: People make stupid choices.

People are generally stupid.

So? The same could be said against almost... well anything. That's about as vague as you can get. Get more specific. How, specifically, will personal body choices harm society?

It is not vague. The majority of us are completely oblivious to our ignorant. Coughing up artificial values left and right; arousing our illusions with our own sacrifices of fundamental essence; playing ping pong with our regurgitated hyperbole about life and our excuses for it. People are overall dim-witted in a society that tells us that our future rests in a piece of paper after going through a system that really holds very little real purpose in the pre-existent simplicity of our world we live in. : )

Want me to get specific? People need to stop complaining and enforcing oppositions that are not substantiated with much reason that doesn't come from their interpersonal tantrum. People complain all the fucking time. Always wanting they want; thinking they are fucking special; playing dodge ball with their egos in a world filled with billions of competitors. The squeaky wheel is the one that gets oiled, and all you are doing is giving them what they want when they, themselves; the researches of their experiences; and the experiece itself - is all entirely vague and still have yet to be steadily understood. You are advocating frankenstein solutions, making a mess out of a situation you try to use your pre-teen head to evaluate with your own pompous, biased, premature drivel. I'm sick of people thinking they have so much control over a situation; when they are a god damn vacuum wielding obstructor that blows everything out of proportion!

What were you expecting? A giant wall of text for you to just disagree on in a society that supports ''I don't give a shit!''?

"The world is getting worse ev'ry day blah blah blah".

Your ability to imply assumptions already foreshadows your ignorance of the whole of our world.