Arch. I have a question lets just say I want to animate in your style. I want to animate a hand while motion tweening but I want to make the hands look and move in a realistic way at the same time. How do I do that?

Ps: if you cant answer this im going back to frame by frame (just kidding)

At 4/28/11 11:51 PM, ifureadthisdie wrote:

At 4/28/11 11:03 PM, Arch-Angel wrote: I think this kind of thing could also work for non robots as well.

They very well can. But frame by frame will give it a more natural and traditional feel. Usually the thing I don't like about tween animations is that it's too obvious that they tweened (hence it doesn't feel natural, the illusion is gone).

Absolutely. Compare that tweened Robot to something FBF, It's hard to rotate characters in tweening, it just looks wierd.

FBF always wins...
http://vimeo.com/14803194

That video was awesome! Well the reason im not a fan of tweening is that sometimes if you dont keep track of all the frames, the animation will look all RONG!

FBF always wins...
http://vimeo.com/14803194

but there are so much frames!! Id be bored to death befrore I could submit that!

okay, hands are a bit tricky. they're the most ricky thinkg to animate with teens. there are two ways to do hands. there are symbol shifts win which the hand starts a tween in on position, then switches to a nother position halfway through a motion, (when it's moving the fastest). these are really just well timed symbol changes. if you do it right, the viewer completely misses it. you can even add an imbetween if you want. these are good for quick, short changes in hand positon, (like throwing a punch or grabbing somthing.) this is baically what you did in the SBC flash.

or, for more complex hand hand moxments. typing, spinning a knife. or many hand gestures) you could try a m much more diferent style and try to breack the hand up into symbols. antween them on different layers. this would be really complex and should only be used for up close shots showing only the hand.

I'll do an example of both and then post it here . give me , like, a day.

At 5/12/11 09:01 AM, PeterSatera wrote:

At 4/28/11 11:51 PM, ifureadthisdie wrote:

At 4/28/11 11:03 PM, Arch-Angel wrote: I think this kind of thing could also work for non robots as well.

They very well can. But frame by frame will give it a more natural and traditional feel. Usually the thing I don't like about tween animations is that it's too obvious that they tweened (hence it doesn't feel natural, the illusion is gone).

Absolutely. Compare that tweened Robot to something FBF, It's hard to rotate characters in tweening, it just looks wierd.

FBF always wins...
http://vimeo.com/14803194

okay first of all, that's not a fair comparison, you're comparing a very basic use of tweens by someone who's still learning, to a master animator using refined, perfected FBF techniques. I could very well post a link to the Appleseed ex machina movie and say tweens always win, but that wouldn't quite be fair.

that's right, CG movies are animated almost exclusively in tweens. so please dont go making broad sweeping generalizations until you think of the bigger picture. I always thought that if it works in 3D, why not 2D? so that's what I'm trying to figure out. just because no one's perfected 2D tweens yet, doesnt mean they're inferior.

Just to let you know, I know that 3d does tweening for I do 3d as well, but i still find it hard to tween stuff here and flash!

At 4/21/11 08:42 AM, PeterSatera wrote: You're working straight ahead animation. The problem with this is your consistency will constantly be broken due to the number of things you will end up changing over time and time again of drawing every frame.

Nothing wrong with animating head on.

If you got the skills that is.

well I dont! ;)

At 5/4/11 08:22 PM, rendibsivad wrote: *sigh* oh great its you again (frikkin troll)

I always find it funny when someone dismisses a successfull comeback as "trolling". Ya' got ouch burned, M8. Accept it.

Quit sitting on your tuff and whining-- just do it. Like Nike, dawg. Find what techniques appeal to YOU. Y-o-u. In time, you'll build up a level of skill and a process that's comfortable-- and you'll be able to express your numerous ideas. Work first-- ideas second. Don't try to force a decent product out if you don't have the skill yet. That's like telling a 3 year old to replicate the Mona Lisa.

At 5/12/11 12:22 PM, rendibsivad wrote:

FBF always wins...
http://vimeo.com/14803194

but there are so much frames!! Id be bored to death befrore I could submit that!

Also-- to note this. Animation takes a mothefucking ASTRONOMICAL AMOUNT OF PATIENCE. Especially in this digital age-- where animation programs and tools get more and more complicated. If you ain't got the patience-- you'd better stick to doodling. It doesn't matter how much skill you build up.

I can eats pie? what do you think?

well?

HAHA!! break that combo arch angel!! I triple posted! anyways heres a test of weightfor my character nut... do you feel the weight??

noooo! my combo breaking abilities have failed me! lol. these animations all look really good. you've gotten alot better over the past couple weeks. I need to do some animations... where did I put that wacom...

are they good enough to get a 5 on newgrounds or maybe an award! or maybe 4 awards or f f frontpage?!

At 5/18/11 11:25 PM, rendibsivad wrote: are they good enough to get a 5 on newgrounds or maybe an award! or maybe 4 awards or f f frontpage?!

to be honest. the animation itself is good enough. i mean ive seen stuff on the front page with worse animation. but really it's the presentations that's gonna do it for you. make sure the sound effects and music are clear and well timed. make sure that the pacing is good, not too fast, but not too slow that its boring, and make sure there is genuine humor throughout. make sure it's well written (even if theres no diolouge) make it witty and origional and see that it makes sense. make sure the visual quality is consistent throughout. look for any errors that could be interpreted as beginner's mistakes and correct them. its all about the presentation.

At 5/12/11 04:26 PM, Arch-Angel wrote: okay first of all, that's not a fair comparison, you're comparing a very basic use of tweens by someone who's still learning, to a master animator using refined, perfected FBF techniques. I could very well post a link to the Appleseed ex machina movie and say tweens always win, but that wouldn't quite be fair.

that's right, CG movies are animated almost exclusively in tweens. so please dont go making broad sweeping generalizations until you think of the bigger picture. I always thought that if it works in 3D, why not 2D? so that's what I'm trying to figure out. just because no one's perfected 2D tweens yet, doesnt mean they're inferior.

It's an absolutely fair comparison. I wasn't comparing ability, im comparing versatility in style. I showed that one because the person did rotate and move so much, things which are impossible to do via tweening. You could post appleseed. But i'll just say that it's completely cell shaded 3D. Which isnt 2D at all. So its a completely different medium. 3D tweening is also a misconcepted way of animating. Actually, in correct 3D character animation they still do key poses and animate the motion in between. The same concept of Keyframes and inbetweening is still apparent. So dont go suggesting im giving poor examples when I clearly am showing decent evidence that frame by frame animation using key poses and inbetweens which its the way its been done in Industry and specialist short film animations for decades is a poor comparison. It's not.

At 5/13/11 02:59 PM, Damien wrote: Nothing wrong with animating head on.

Never said there was anything wrong with straight ahead animation. Its just that you sacarafice contrast in timing, contrast in posing and dynamic posing. 90% of animations on here do not have their character animated well when they speak. It's a dead pan still character with little motion, maybe they shrug, maybe they lift their arms, but its not enough. However look over at people who take the time to animate traditionally and the ones who make keyposes always come out with a stronger animation. I dont make this stuff up, ive been doing it for years. And if anyone has any doubts they can read more about it in the discussions of Tips and Tricks pdfs from Shawn Kelly, who is cofounder of Animation Mentor and Lead animator of ILM. As well as Bobby Beck, Pixar Animator.

As Nicol3 said. It takes patience. She said the digital age, but I actually think its 100 times faster now. We dont have to ink and paint cells, or photograph frames with a multiplane camera. Or capture images onto physical film. We dont have to pay for pencils and paper, or worry about how strong our lightboxes are. Or if our PegBars have accidently snapped or if we have enough money for our studio punch, which can be like £750. With ToonBoom Animate Pro/ Flash/Retas/Anime studio/etc this is all made second nature. F**k. Can you imagine drawing a frame, and then flipping the cell to paint it! Whereas now we just click a colour and fill in our vector lines. Its the self satisfaction and competition in the digital age which strives to force you to do something a little better.

At 5/18/11 10:48 PM, rendibsivad wrote: HAHA!! break that combo arch angel!! I triple posted! anyways heres a test of weightfor my character nut... do you feel the weight??

I think his weight should be more apparent via his motion than the camera angles. He picked him up raher easily. Do some research, go and pick up a box of something and see how your body rotates to get around it. How you get yout hands right under to pick it up. You character picks the big character easily. If you wanted to really show how heavy it was initially, which it should be he would have lifted him up and possibly rolled onto hit shoulder. Considder its like you, picking up a matress, its not easy, it may nto just be the weight which causes imbalance, but the sheer bulk of it. Like picking up a television, they arent THAT heavy. But the sheer dimensions of it cause strain.

So plenty to play with and make your character and motion interesting.

At 5/20/11 08:57 AM, PeterSatera wrote:
It's an absolutely fair comparison. I wasn't comparing ability, im comparing versatility in style. I showed that one because the person did rotate and move so much, things which are impossible to do via tweening. You could post appleseed. But i'll just say that it's completely cell shaded 3D. Which isnt 2D at all. So its a completely different medium. 3D tweening is also a misconcepted way of animating. Actually, in correct 3D character animation they still do key poses and animate the motion in between. The same concept of Keyframes and inbetweening is still apparent. So dont go suggesting im giving poor examples when I clearly am showing decent evidence that frame by frame animation using key poses and inbetweens which its the way its been done in Industry and specialist short film animations for decades is a poor comparison. It's not.

You said "compare that tweened robot to something in FBF" and proceeded to post a masterful example of fbf by an expert. what I'm saying is that it is not the style that makes the difference, it is the skill level. I am confident that if I had as much talent, time, experience and practice as that guy, I could make something that looks just as good with tweens. I agree that key positioning and inbetweens are crucial no mater how you animate. I wasnt saying they're not. Theres more to tweeinging than just just establishing point A and point B and hitting 'create classic tween' you still have to go back and adjust the positioning at various frames along the tween. you still have to redraw certain frames in order to account for foreshortening an rotation. the two styles aren't really that different, but the big difference is that you can use a higher, more consistent level of detail with tweens because you dont have to redraw every single frame. as for character rotation. yes I admit it it easier in fbf. But it is possible in tweens too. You just have to go about it a little differently. foreshortening is hard. no matter how you do it.

I'm not saying its a poor comparison. Its a great comparison, its just not a fair one. because there is a considerable difference in skill to consider. I believe I could do that with tweens if I had more skill.

At 5/21/11 12:56 AM, Arch-Angel wrote: You said "compare that tweened robot to something in FBF" and proceeded to post a masterful example of fbf by an expert. what I'm saying is that it is not the style that makes the difference, it is the skill level. I am confident that if I had as much talent, time, experience and practice as that guy, I could make something that looks just as good with tweens. I agree that key positioning and inbetweens are crucial no mater how you animate. I wasnt saying they're not. Theres more to tweeinging than just just establishing point A and point B and hitting 'create classic tween' you still have to go back and adjust the positioning at various frames along the tween. you still have to redraw certain frames in order to account for foreshortening an rotation. the two styles aren't really that different, but the big difference is that you can use a higher, more consistent level of detail with tweens because you dont have to redraw every single frame. as for character rotation. yes I admit it it easier in fbf. But it is possible in tweens too. You just have to go about it a little differently. foreshortening is hard. no matter how you do it.

I'm not saying its a poor comparison. Its a great comparison, its just not a fair one. because there is a considerable difference in skill to consider. I believe I could do that with tweens if I had more skill.

I was meaning compare the style. I honestly dont believe tweens can show produce such a high quality in animation. And the fact you have yet to show me an animation which is of quality using purely 2D tweens is proof enough that the gainability of using tweens is not a subtiantial enough technique to pull of the quality which can be produced traditionally. With all the amazing quality animations on the internet nothing tweened has came close to good traditional animation. You can't simply say that oh, but nobody has reached that quality yet, but its possible. Thats cars can fly, but nobody has made that happen yet. In that case, cars still dont fly. As they say, the proof is in the pudding. When you are redrawing frames in the tween, you're no longer tweening, your FBFing. Which is why tweening alone is dependant on FBFing to make it look better.

Saying that drawings are consistent when tweening is also skewed. The only reason why you find on newgrounds that most FBF isnt consistent is because the majority use flash, a package which makes it difficult to maintain fbf consistency with brush created lineart. Causing in most cases shaking of lines. Would you then suggest Sleeping Beauty was inconsistent due to frame by frame animation? It doesnt make a difference it's industry shots still had to be animated by a single animator.

*ahem* keep in mind the iron giant (if you dont know what im talking about look it up) believe it or not is a frame by frame (even if it does look 3d)

At 5/21/11 07:35 AM, PeterSatera wrote:
I was meaning compare the style. I honestly dont believe tweens can show produce such a high quality in animation. And the fact you have yet to show me an animation which is of quality using purely 2D tweens is proof enough that the gainability of using tweens is not a subtiantial enough technique to pull of the quality which can be produced traditionally. With all the amazing quality animations on the internet nothing tweened has came close to good traditional animation. You can't simply say that oh, but nobody has reached that quality yet, but its possible. Thats cars can fly, but nobody has made that happen yet. In that case, cars still dont fly. As they say, the proof is in the pudding. When you are redrawing frames in the tween, you're no longer tweening, your FBFing. Which is why tweening alone is dependant on FBFing to make it look better.

Saying that drawings are consistent when tweening is also skewed. The only reason why you find on newgrounds that most FBF isnt consistent is because the majority use flash, a package which makes it difficult to maintain fbf consistency with brush created lineart. Causing in most cases shaking of lines. Would you then suggest Sleeping Beauty was inconsistent due to frame by frame animation? It doesnt make a difference it's industry shots still had to be animated by a single animator.

I agree with most of this. There are pleany of superbly done fbf anims online. but in my time, I've also seen plenty of very poorly done fbf. the same goes for tweens. there are pleanty of good and bad tween animations. I think bunnykill 4 was made with tweens. Also I made Runner using tweens which I believe has some pretty smooth character animation. in the end I suppose a healthy combination of tweens and fbf is necessary to create a decent flash animation, because elements of fbf are still used in tween animation. Personally I believe there is a balance that must be kept. In the end its all a mater of preference and skill level.

I believe that good tween animations are just like flying cars. difficult to create, very rare and hardly practical, but pretty cool if done right. they have their strengths and weaknesses, but in no way are they inferior, and on that, we can agree to disagree.

At 5/22/11 01:55 AM, Arch-Angel wrote: I agree with most of this. There are pleany of superbly done fbf anims online. but in my time, I've also seen plenty of very poorly done fbf. the same goes for tweens. there are pleanty of good and bad tween animations. I think bunnykill 4 was made with tweens. Also I made Runner using tweens which I believe has some pretty smooth character animation. in the end I suppose a healthy combination of tweens and fbf is necessary to create a decent flash animation, because elements of fbf are still used in tween animation. Personally I believe there is a balance that must be kept. In the end its all a mater of preference and skill level.

I believe that good tween animations are just like flying cars. difficult to create, very rare and hardly practical, but pretty cool if done right. they have their strengths and weaknesses, but in no way are they inferior, and on that, we can agree to disagree.

Flying car video was down out daft, and far from a car, its a folding plane.

Anyway, im not talking about bad animations, just because there's bad animations in FBF doesnt make that a substantial fact meaning that FBF isnt better. Bunny Kill 4 is indeed tweened, like your runner animation and exactly an illustration of how flat tweened animation forces your anim to become. The problem seems to be that you generalise animation as Flash. It's not. You need to look at Animations in general, such as short films all the way to blockbuster. No offence to tweeners, but you really cant see an animated movie which is tweened through and through on the big screen, while right now and always have had fbf films on the big screen. If tweened animation could produce fbf animation, then the big companies would have utilized this already.

You can suggest its a preference, taste is exactly what that is. But we're not talking about what you like or what I like. We're talking about Traditional versus Tweened animation and the Pros and Cons of each, and so far all I have seen that gives tweening the upper hand is that you chew out an animation 10x faster, but visually at an expense. You say they are not inferior, but you have still yet to prove why. Instead of proving a metaphor, please backup your debate with 2D tweened animation which can represent a high quality as FBF.

At 5/22/11 04:12 PM, PeterSatera wrote:
Flying car video was down out daft, and far from a car, its a folding plane.

Anyway, im not talking about bad animations, just because there's bad animations in FBF doesnt make that a substantial fact meaning that FBF isnt better. Bunny Kill 4 is indeed tweened, like your runner animation and exactly an illustration of how flat tweened animation forces your anim to become. The problem seems to be that you generalise animation as Flash. It's not. You need to look at Animations in general, such as short films all the way to blockbuster. No offence to tweeners, but you really cant see an animated movie which is tweened through and through on the big screen, while right now and always have had fbf films on the big screen. If tweened animation could produce fbf animation, then the big companies would have utilized this already.

You can suggest its a preference, taste is exactly what that is. But we're not talking about what you like or what I like. We're talking about Traditional versus Tweened animation and the Pros and Cons of each, and so far all I have seen that gives tweening the upper hand is that you chew out an animation 10x faster, but visually at an expense. You say they are not inferior, but you have still yet to prove why. Instead of proving a metaphor, please backup your debate with 2D tweened animation which can represent a high quality as FBF.

The flying car very well was "daft" as you say, but your missing the point. as ridiculous as it was, someone managed to take the time to make it work, effectively. Even if it didn't resemble a car in the 'traditional' sense, it was a car nonetheless and it did fly. Tweens are one and the same; just because they look diferent from traditional animation, which no doubt looks good, doesn't make them, necessarily worse. But enough hiding behind a sinisterly clever metaphor, bunnykill can hardly be considered to be flat. it may be linear but is simply isnt flat the characters twist and turn and jump and spin, and its all done very effectively. runner was admitedly flat, but flats not always a bad thing, especially in 2D animation. if you want it to look 3D, then you should use a 3D software, which is, again, Tweens. But as you said, that's a different story. my shoombot animation isnt exactly flat either, I mean, no more than Sarcos's example.
and while we're on the subject of shroombots (original topic of this thread) lets compare my tweened shroombot to sarcos's fbf shroombot. here we have the same subject, similar dynamic cinematography, admittedly the same level of general skill, and the same basic storyboard. I would even be willing to bet that we spent a similar amount of time. the only difference was that I used tweens, and he used traditional frame by frame. That, my friend is a fair comparison of style quality.

grandfaloon's 'the real legend' series, uses a healthy mix of tweens and frame by frame.
Krinkles's Madness series seems to be doing pretty well using a tween (-like?) style. even if its not strictly tweens, it's far from classic redraw frame by frame.
foster's home for imaginary friends uses a style that resembles tweening It seems to be pretty popular.
I mean, tweens arent as bad as you make them out to be. they're effective in certain applications just like fbf is.

pros to using frame by frame:
- more traditional look
- easier camera angle changes
- easier, more effective character rotation and illusion of 3D
- not confined to set shapes, more freedom of form

cons to using fbf:
- coloring is a painfully slow process
- slower in general
- difficult to alter motion once its been created
- harder to keep smooth

pros of tweens:
- expedited animation process allows more time for sound, presentation and details
- easier to keep consistant details, line dept, and proportions
- the ability to create, view and alter individual motions without having to scrap and redo large portions of animation
- adding colors is quick, and can be easily altered later

cons of tweens:
- drawing and properly positioning new mc symbols can be a pain.
- improper use can lead to a "flat sliding shapes" look. harder to create the illusion of 3D.
- tweens can be glitchy and unpredictable.
- improper (or the lack of) use of motion ease can result in stale movement

lets just end this. you say that fbf is effective, I agree. you say tweening is wholly ineffective, I disagree.
lets just leave it at that.

-offers to shake hand-

I have an Idea *dum da da DUM* layers! just put stuff in a different layer for each frame like arms legs feet and other things! Ive seen this be done in old shows like fat albert and school house rock! plus its good for lip sych so you dont have to move the character so much!

good luck!

also made with tweens:
johny utah's tankmen series
Jazza's Larry series
Oney's Leo and satan series

these are all pretty high quality in my opinion.

made with fbf

adam phllip's animation
mindchamber's animations
happy harry's animation

and there very goooood.

oh yeah no doubt. you guys got me all wrong, i'm not saying fbf is bad, I'm just saying that tweens are good too. its a matter of preference really.

No, just practice, that is all you can do to get better. Nice Character by the way. Frame bt frame is my favorite, and it is very hard and time consuming, just keep working at it.

Thanks man! buy which one? The nut character? or the shroom bot?