God (by definition) possesses every possible perfection. The universe itself is a perfection (by definition of existence). Something that is perfect cannot occur by chance (by infinitesimal probability). Therefore god exists.

I'll rephrase that,

Because the universe is infinite (and therefor a perfect), it had to have been created, because something that is infinite like our universe has an infinitely small chance of happening by chance which means it cannot happen by chance at all. This means that the universe was created which is by definition what god is.

This proof is flawless. It's my response to all the stupid God is fake crap.

Any Questions?

Uh... flame war?

Same circular logic that's used in all atheist blah blah threads.

Please, this theology debate is boring... How many topics of this do we need?

No ONE has EVER thought of this BEFORE.

And i love over made topics too.

At 10/5/07 09:08 PM, AshfordPride wrote: How many topics of this do we need?

until people learn that these topics are looked down on in NG.

Except that the Univers is NOT infinite. It is only expanding. The Universe is like a balloon; it has an outer boundary.

Perfectly logical. My theory for why god prevails over science is that scients can't explain how, if matter can't be createed or destroyed, how did it get here in the first place?
I also believe that God is about the same as the matter and, more importantly, the energy of the universe. We, being part of that matter and energy, share a connection with the entire universe, and can use this connection 2 get free stuff! I'm serious, if u ask the universe 4 smthing, it will give it 2 u.

I love pointing out flaws.

There is no proof that the universe is infinite. Therefore, your statement is now a theory, which means I proved you wrong.

Can I have a cookie now?

Your claim the universe is perfect makes no sense. By definition of existence? So anything that exists is perfect? No.

Also, as far as religion goes, God is not perfect, he is omnipresent, and omniscient. So he is everywhere and knows everything, but does that really make him perfect? No, it just makes him aware of all things.

At 10/5/07 09:12 PM, KerfuffleMach2 wrote:

Can I have a cookie now?

enjoy your cool points cookie.

Where are you getting the numbers that state that there is an infinitly small chance that the universe happened by chance?
You could by that reasoning also say there is an infinitly small chance the universe was created. It is false logic. please go away.

Something that cannot be explained by science is not true, therefore what you just said made almost no sense. Perfection is a state of mind are you saying that perspective is perfect? I hail the sun because I can see it, and it helped give birth to me.

At 10/5/07 09:12 PM, KerfuffleMach2 wrote: I love pointing out flaws.

There is no proof that the universe is infinite. Therefore, your statement is now a theory, which means I proved you wrong.

Can I have a cookie now?

Ah but the universe is indefinitely infinite in time space. Infinite simply means having no end, and since the universe progresses infinitely through time space it by definition has no end. Because we ultimately define the the universe as the state of existence, the universe is infinite in this definition. Rather or not the universe is physically infinite is redundant to this argument.

At 10/5/07 09:12 PM, Vousielle wrote: Where are you getting the numbers that state that there is an infinitly small chance that the universe happened by chance?
You could by that reasoning also say there is an infinitly small chance the universe was created. It is false logic. please go away.

It's a mathematical principle. We define existence as the presence of a number of which the furthest reach is x. A probability function can then be defined by 1/x which equals the probability. If magnitude x is infinite, than the equation results in a limit equal to 0.

like lambs to the slaughter

The universe isn't perfect. Humans are as far from it as they come. You have no proof the universe is endless. You "logic" is therefore flawed.

At 10/5/07 09:09 PM, inclusivedisjunction wrote: Except that the Univers is NOT infinite. It is only expanding. The Universe is like a balloon; it has an outer boundary.

Then who is blowing the air into the ballon?

At 10/5/07 09:23 PM, InsaneSmilie wrote:

At 10/5/07 09:12 PM, KerfuffleMach2 wrote: There is no proof that the universe is infinite. Therefore, your statement is now a theory, which means I proved you wrong.

Infinite simply means having no end, and since the universe progresses infinitely through time space it by definition has no end.

Okay, let's plug your deinition of infinite into his statement.

"There is no proof that the universe has no end."

Yep, still plausible.

At 10/5/07 09:23 PM, InsaneSmilie wrote:

At 10/5/07 09:12 PM, KerfuffleMach2 wrote: I love pointing out flaws.

There is no proof that the universe is infinite. Therefore, your statement is now a theory, which means I proved you wrong.

Can I have a cookie now?

Ah but the universe is indefinitely infinite in time space. Infinite simply means having no end, and since the universe progresses infinitely through time space it by definition has no end. Because we ultimately define the the universe as the state of existence, the universe is infinite in this definition. Rather or not the universe is physically infinite is redundant to this argument.

Oh, so you want a battle of the wits, then? Well, I accept.

Has it been proven that the universe travels infinitely through time space? No. There could be an end. We have no idea. Also, the universe is not defined as the state of existence. It might be defined as the place of existence, but not the state.

dude just drop it, you're only giving fuel to the fire by doing ANOTHER thread about religious debate

Noone really knows shit about the universe, or god for that matter. Human logic and reasoning capabilities are likely very limited and flawed. Your brain in the scheme of true reality is like an ant compehending it's surroundings.

Basicly, nobody is CAPABLE of knowing shit.

Everybody's wrong.

Enjoy and make the most of your life on your own terms.

At 10/5/07 09:09 PM, inclusivedisjunction wrote: Except that the Univers is NOT infinite. It is only expanding. The Universe is like a balloon; it has an outer boundary.

No its not, That is assumed but not fact.

Our Creation is like a puzzle of a human face, you have every piece in but the one thats supposed to be where the left eye usually is, one would regularly assume it is the left eye by inferring it but that is not true, it is only a guess and not fact. An apple could be there for pete's sake!

Scientist see that the universe is moving and that it is very large so they assume it started at one point and continued expanding but thats not fact on an infer on the fact that the universe is moving.

also, theres no denying that there is a God, although my idea isnt a fact also, I see it this way, if every religion has one thing in common (a God) then that must mean that there is a God out there. Why? Because there are alot of similar stories from the bible shared by different religions that are across the whole planet and have never had contact, yet the concept of these stories never changed.

At 10/5/07 09:23 PM, InsaneSmilie wrote:

It's a mathematical principle. We define existence as the presence of a number of which the furthest reach is x. A probability function can then be defined by 1/x which equals the probability. If magnitude x is infinite, than the equation results in a limit equal to 0.

Yes, but you are trying to force a mathematical principle to fit your personal beliefs. You can't prove the existence of santa claus using the Water displacement principle.

At 10/5/07 09:07 PM, InsaneSmilie wrote:

This proof is flawless. It's my response to all the stupid God is fake crap.

You're logic is tragically flawed. I would say it doesn't matter what you believe, but actually it is what you believe or don't; your faith or lack thereof cannot be proven or disproven.

So what you think or believe really doesn't matter as far as what is or what isn't, only in your own insignificant existence.

At 10/5/07 09:10 PM, Peaceblossom wrote: With infinite perfection comes infinite flaw.

ahhh you've discovered the curve ball. Here perfection was broken down into the state of existing or not existing. One could argue that true perfection would be non-existence but than god wouldn't exist making the original argument redundant.

The truth is that even though this proof is flawless it says very littel. The fact is that we as humans lack the intelligence or ability to define god, and so here God is stated simply as the nature of existance, which of course exists. It doesn't actually say anything about what god is or any of the trivial details most religions obsess themselves with.

The point I trying to prove is that you can't define god, and that all the religious debate that go on here on the forum are really pointless since they are based of definitions that have no marret what-so-ever. As I said this is my response to the whole "God is fake crap"

The last point is that I think it's stupid how alot of religions fight of stupid details of their faiths when in truth the all share the same important beliefs.

.....do you know how easily someone can go on wikipedia and change the information? i hope you realize that christianity, next to islam, is pretty much the most widespread religion in the world, as well as the most organized and biased. for all you know, wikipedia is moderated by christian americans who believe in god, therefore leaving you with not only an unreliable source of information, but also a biased one. also, all dictionaries and encyclopedias are made by people (that are also monotheists) seeking to define, describe and understand the world through their own perceptions of the universe, which is tainted by their beliefs and faith. you cannot prove that god exists, yet you cannot prove he doesn't. i believe in god, but i don't know about whether he's real or not. therefore, i have just disproved you, but left you with your faith.

At 10/5/07 09:43 PM, InsaneSmilie wrote:

At 10/5/07 09:10 PM, Peaceblossom wrote: With infinite perfection comes infinite flaw.

ahhh you've discovered the curve ball. Here perfection was broken down into the state of existing or not existing. One could argue that true perfection would be non-existence but than god wouldn't exist making the original argument redundant.

The truth is that even though this proof is flawless it says very littel. The fact is that we as humans lack the intelligence or ability to define god, and so here God is stated simply as the nature of existance, which of course exists. It doesn't actually say anything about what god is or any of the trivial details most religions obsess themselves with.

The point I trying to prove is that you can't define god, and that all the religious debate that go on here on the forum are really pointless since they are based of definitions that have no marret what-so-ever. As I said this is my response to the whole "God is fake crap"

The last point is that I think it's stupid how alot of religions fight of stupid details of their faiths when in truth the all share the same important beliefs.

Religion is like the telephone game, a few people got talked to by God, and then the few people that heard/witnessed it and survived told, and told, and told, and so forth. As time went on people exaggerated certain personal beliefs to convince people to follow there path, and when one person notices this clever plain, they all follow.

Who Cares?

At 10/5/07 09:23 PM, InsaneSmilie wrote: Ah but the universe is indefinitely infinite in time space. Infinite simply means having no end, and since the universe progresses infinitely through time space it by definition has no end. Because we ultimately define the the universe as the state of existence, the universe is infinite in this definition. Rather or not the universe is physically infinite is redundant to this argument.

The universe isn't infinite. It has an end. It has a boundary.
The universe might not expand infinitely.
Things that exist is supposed to be infinite? What kind of voodoo is that?

At 10/5/07 09:52 PM, McFooFa wrote: Who Cares?

best answer so far.

At 10/5/07 09:47 PM, Frattochino wrote: Religion is like the telephone game

You sir, win a theological cookie.