At 5/14/05 11:32 PM, S_W_A_R_M-generation wrote: question: if u talk shit bout the israeli gov in israel, do u get arrested and killed?

Answer: No, Israel is a liberal country and you can express you'r self in any way possible, but you can't make an other person who didn't think like you, to think like you.
You can talk against Israel as long as you don't change one's opinion.
P.S this question realy made me think, because I was sure that most people know that Israel is liberal.

First of all I didn't mension anything about the balfur decleration being after the mandat.

A legitimate (if that is possible) declaration can only happen when the people making the declaration have control legitimate control over what they are declaring about (Man, I really could have made that sentence easier.) If the Balfour Declaration preceded the Mandate it means that it was invalid.

after balfur said that the jews should have a national hom In Israel the british recieved the mandat and only 29 years after that they left. We had the full write to donanything to make them leave.

You're saying that Britain gave the Jews in Palestine the legitimate right to attack Britain? Hmmmm.

Second of all you piss me off with you wise -assing, HOW CAN YOU CALL DAVID BEN GURION A TERORIST? David ben gurion (Or Davia josef green) came and actedin a zionist woriors alganization unlike the palastinians terorists that act for them selves against the "permenent" government will.

See I would see the actions of pre-state Palestinians as having more legitimacy than pre-state Israelis. The Jews immigrated to Palestine and demanded a state. The Palestinians were already there. And, since you keep pointing it out the UN saying the Israelis should have a state was coupled with saying the Palestinians should have a state.

stop being such a wise ass.

Stop being such a stupid ass.

Slizor: 1. the Balfur declaration came from (if i am not wrong) "Your majestys kingdom", It was writen By Balfur who was the minister of forgein affairs and it was writen under the acception of the queen, what makes it valid to all. the Balfur declaration was writen in 1917 when the British CONTROLLED Israel, they a a supreme praiority to make this decision.
Yes, I am saying that in conconsciousness or not, they did indirectly gave Israel the write to attack the british in Israel before the british understood what is happening, before the jews started attacking.
David Ben Gurion was a great, trained warior who did not died in any of his attacks, unlike most of the palastinians who just take a bomb and suicide.
You may see the praiority of the Palastinians to be in Israel, But the UN decided diferently, and you should respect the UN's decisions. The Un decided that Israel will be split to 3 parts: Arab, Jewish and International (you realy don't know what happened next?). We the jews were happy to do so and we even danced happy dances for hours, but the Palastinians weren't happy to do so, so they attacked, one single day after the UN's decision. We fought bravely, in the beginning with the Israeli arabs and in the end with 5 arab states and Israeli arabs, we won this war in 1949 with the conquer of Eilat (or UM RASHRASH) and conquered 70% of the palastinian part, this war is now knowen as the Independence war.
P.S I am interested to know how did you got this information, and why are you interested in that, because although in is odd that you know about Israel history, it makes me happy that a none - israeli person know that thing.

Slizor: 1. the Balfur declaration came from (if i am not wrong) "Your majestys kingdom", It was writen By Balfur who was the minister of forgein affairs and it was writen under the acception of the queen, what makes it valid to all. the Balfur declaration was writen in 1917 when the British CONTROLLED Israel, they a a supreme praiority to make this decision.

The control of an area of land does not mean they can pass laws. And let's have a little look at the Balfour declaration
"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."
It's not talking about rights it's saying that Britain will help to establish a Jewish state in Palestine without disturbing non-Jewish communities in Palestine.

Yes, I am saying that in conconsciousness or not, they did indirectly gave Israel the write to attack the british in Israel before the british understood what is happening, before the jews started attacking.

The Balfour declaration said the Britain would establish the state, nothing more nothing less.

David Ben Gurion was a great, trained warior who did not died in any of his attacks, unlike most of the palastinians who just take a bomb and suicide.

You're arguing that the difference between a terrorist and a warrior is if they die in their attacks? So Osama Bin Laden is not a terrorist, but a warrior? Interesting.

You may see the praiority of the Palastinians to be in Israel, But the UN decided diferently, and you should respect the UN's decisions.

No it didn't. As you said Palestine was to be split into three parts - one part Palestinian. The Palestinians are yet to get their part.

We the jews were happy to do so and we even danced happy dances for hours, but the Palastinians weren't happy to do so, so they attacked, one single day after the UN's decision.

The Palestinians didn't attack, it was surrounding Arab states that attacked. The people whose state it was going to be did not get a say in the matter. And the Jews should have bloody well been happy they just stole half a state from the Palestinians.

P.S I am interested to know how did you got this information, and why are you interested in that, because although in is odd that you know about Israel history, it makes me happy that a none - israeli person know that thing.

Because I'm not just a 13 year old whose historical knowledge goes to the extent they have been taught at school.

this is defying logic, even when the british were conrolling this land, people lived there, where did all the refugee camps come from? how is jordan made up of 50% palestinian? this is very well documented, you kicked out the paestinains to make space for you country, and the jews, even the isrealie's in my old peace camp all agreed to this, you can't expect to kick somebody out of their own land, and not to fight, it's simply idiotic and cowerdly, the UN came much later

The british didn't leave israel slizor, they had to leave much sooner, i hope you know that without the help off the jewish woriors, they were still here with a "mandat", we made their life a misory, so they left.
Please stop calling David the great a terorist or I will have to finish talking (you know what i ment) with you.
it is a common mistake that the arab states started the independence war, No! actually the war started a day after the UN's vote with the explosion of a jewish bus, the bus (you probably guessed) exploaded along with 10 dead people and some injured, (again the war started in 1947, a lot before the independance declairation).
then in may 15 1948 5 arab states (with arranged armies) joind the palastinians attack.
We won and conquared 70% of the arabs part, after the war (which was ended in 1949) we held 80% of this country. This is why we have the arabs part, because we won in a war --- they started ---. Oh and don't be so proud about the fact that you didn't learn this in school, it just means that you know a bit less than me what you are talking about, that is why you are writing things you don't understand.
David fought for supreme causes.

At 5/15/05 09:29 AM, darklad wrote: this is defying logic, even when the british were conrolling this land, people lived there, where did all the refugee camps come from? how is jordan made up of 50% palestinian? this is very well documented, you kicked out the paestinains to make space for you country, and the jews, even the isrealie's in my old peace camp all agreed to this, you can't expect to kick somebody out of their own land, and not to fight, it's simply idiotic and cowerdly, the UN came much later

First of all, the UN came before, the UN was existed since the end of world war 2.
We "kicked them out" because they were dangerous to our country. And even if we left them, the lands were ours after the war, do you axpect them to stay in a hostaiity jewish country, they couldn't survive.
if half of you are palastinians, why aren't you taking them? they made us too much trouble, you have enough space in jordan.
If you didn't want us to "kick the palastinians out" why the hell did you join the war?

The british didn't leave israel slizor, they had to leave much sooner, i hope you know that without the help off the jewish woriors, they were still here with a "mandat", we made their life a misory, so they left.

Yeah it was nothing to do with British post-war need to withdraw forces due to financial trouble. So for instance withdrawing troops from Greece, or granting India indepedence. No no, Israel was a completely seperate case to what Britain was doing. Of course.

Please stop calling David the great a terorist or I will have to finish talking (you know what i ment) with you.

Your mind too clouded with nationalistic propaganda that you can't stand a realistic evaluation of him?

it is a common mistake that the arab states started the independence war, No! actually the war started a day after the UN's vote with the explosion of a jewish bus, the bus (you probably guessed) exploaded along with 10 dead people and some injured, (again the war started in 1947, a lot before the independance declairation).

The date of the starting of the war is up to contention. A war is generally between two states - which is why the phrase civil war is used to describe two groups fighting in one country. If you are taking it as one big fight then it should be called the Independence Conflict. As for the bus, it was 6 people. Not that one event can start a war. I would suggest the unfair settling of Jews in Israel would have been the cause.

then in may 15 1948 5 arab states (with arranged armies) joind the palastinians attack.
We won and conquared 70% of the arabs part, after the war (which was ended in 1949) we held 80% of this country. This is why we have the arabs part, because we won in a war --- they started ---.

Ah so imperialism is okay? It would be okay if another country came and occupied Israel?

Oh and don't be so proud about the fact that you didn't learn this in school, it just means that you know a bit less than me what you are talking about, that is why you are writing things you don't understand.

Well no, it doesn't. Y'see I've done the whole "school" thing and I've done a helluva lot of history which is why I know of the inadequeces of the teaching of history, particually at lower levels. I also doubt your access to different schools of thought on pretty much any history and have no doubt lapped up the orthodox views.

David fought for supreme causes.

mind you, tell me when did the second world war end? today, may the 15, is the 57 memory of "aam al nakba", roughly translated to the year of the catastrophye, when isreal started the evacutions, and claimed palestine as isreal, no offence most the things you post condritict with each other, i had many debated with many very smart, well informed isrealies, you go against a lot of what they said, it's a tad hard for me to buy the things you post, because a lot of it is made up, i studied this issue a lot, mind you, and talked to many isrealies who also studied it as well, in numerous occasions, and i'm kind of confused from where you got your sources from, like you said, if you don't know, don't speak, again no offence

May I ask what is made up? I don't know what do you think I am, but before i replied you i red the Independence war chapter in my history book again, asked my teacher if my saying are true and red information in web sites.
there are a lot of american patriots, bet there aren't a lot of israeli zionists, that is probebly why your friends from the peace camp (which i find very good) didn't try and protect Israel the way I do, or the way you protect Jordan.
WW2 ended in 1945 (I think you know that, but you asked, so I answered)

I will not answer all you quetions for being dumb, but here are some answers.
Slizor, One event can and always will start a war (It will sound you bit smart assing but "hear"), If not this event so this one, if not this one then this one, if not this one then these, but in the bottom line the last event is the war starter, the one event which started the war.
Imperialism is wrong, we are not or were not Imperialists. Yes, we did conquared most of the arab part in Israel, but it was just a side affect of defending our selves from the arabs attacking us. So why didn't we gave them back, you might ask? We would, But the palastinians weren't interested in peace and we won't give them just like that. Why aren't we giving them now? we can't, we leave here to many years now and the palastinians show not interest in those lands.
You from all the states in the world has no write to call us imperialists. I think there is a reason that a lot of countries fought you for their independence, such as: USA, Israel, India etc. who are you to doubt my writes to be here as a jew? and maybe UK is the one who should be criticsized? and maybe, in lets say 57 years, when the palastinians will have a state, an 18 years old boy Israeli will doubt palastinians writes to be at palestine, like you are doubting me?
Please, If you want me to answer you better, I don't know if you red all my first post, but i don't know English that well, will you be able to speake English in a less high and complicated way? cause if you will I will understand your argument more clearly and will be able to answer you better.

At 5/14/05 11:50 PM, jmaster306 wrote:

Depends, how heavy are your pockets? =P

No, Israel is not that corrupted, she is in the 26th (the higher your number is more corrupted you are) place in governmental corruption in the world (which is not that good), but one of the first in law corruptions, we barrely touch bribes.

At 5/14/05 04:44 AM, flak_gun wrote:

At 5/14/05 04:33 AM, lidov wrote: Oh flak gun, so you say that If USA was attacking you you would surrender?

why the fuck should we surrender? we had the most biggest nuclear missile in the universe! unlike you useless fucked up zionists!

why should we surrender? we were stronger then them, it is a fact, we won the war.

At 5/14/05 11:20 AM, SkyCube wrote:

and your fucked up zionist grandfather deserved it!

for that you deserve to go to hell

for not questioning the facts you get from the russian govorment which is one of the most corrupt govorment system and supported the arab countries while the US supported israel so does have a motive. for that you get to live your poor life being an ass.

At 5/13/05 04:55 PM, darklad wrote: you kicked the people out of their own land, thats not acceptable simply, you can't expect them to give up their land, they have honour and dignity, they wanted the lands you TOOK from them, they LIVED their happily before YOU came and kicked THEM out, and i won't post here anymore untill cahen confirms that he's ok that you took his thread

Again Darklad I appreciate your respect, and you know i won't confirm all of his stuff like you know that alot of what you post has another side, well now you know that I'm more left winged then alot of people here.

He is allowed to get heard, it's only fair , however take into considiration i disagree with alot of stuff, the only misfortune is that he is not very aquainted to diplomatic manners, while i loosed people's opinion about us being bad, he just tightens it, I'm sure he means well.

from inglor's home (a visit)

Cahenn

some error fixin :{P

first of all, WE NEVER DROVE OFF THE BRITISH, they left.

a)you can't call zionist terrorist, it's like calling palastinians terrorists, zionist is national relations to israel and believing israel is the rightful home for the jewish people, if you wanna blame movements in terrorism, blame the "etzel" they came closest. and they weren't terrorist since israel wasn't a country that time.

I'm a zionist, do I sound like a terrorist (assuming you read stuff i wrote)

b)second of all, we're very proud and strong, and frankly russia has every political reason to not be too friendly to us, no offense, but most of israelis takes you as an undeveloped underachiever who believed in false ideals, though at it's start israel could've turned out communist, or socialist (in a true way). after all look at it from my eyes, you just judged a country without visiting there, hearing it's side, or at least trying. in my eyes, it makes me (and people like darklad for that matter) better then you.

c)I hope i wasn't too offensive in my "b" but please state why you hate israel so much? what's your real reason?

At 5/16/05 09:58 AM, Cahenn wrote: stuff

great to see you back cahen, long time no see, i'm more of a left side as well, nice to know you are to, hope to see back posting again

If may I ask cahenn, who are you speaking of?

cahenn, were you talking to flak gun in your second "back post"?
because if you were, don't talk to him, he is an anti semite, he won't accept anything you say, unless you say something against jews.

At 5/16/05 10:07 AM, darklad wrote:

At 5/16/05 09:58 AM, Cahenn wrote: stuff

great to see you back cahen, long time no see, i'm more of a left side as well, nice to know you are to, hope to see back posting again

well I wasn't at the left wing for most of my life, but i got sick of war. I still look at myself as a zionist and would die for my country...

The media is just unfair :/ to both of us....

for the world it is comfortable to see us suffer, I was neither suprised or sad to see the hammas win alot of local elections not too long ago... but I realised that people just want peact, they don't want to fight

the more I learn about the present, the less I care about the past, I really don't care about who owns the land historically anymore, I'm still able to give good justifications, but in general it just does not matter.

The buttom line is that we must get along, and we must live in duality, accept eachother and compromise over non-critical stuff,

Freedom, Oppertunities, Self-Actualization, Education, and Dignity,

If you give people all those, I believe they'll work very hard to conserve them, I think that as long we get them to the people asap, the actual physical borders wouldn't matter.

The western world is toying with you and exploiting you, the more I've learned the more I see it. You're trying to get your honour back, but we're not your enemy, and you won't win this war with guns,

If you invest resources in education, freedom, and self-actualization, eventually, the arab countries will be a well respected power, with jihad and holy wars, apart from making the US/israel look bad from time to time, you gain nothing but more battles, and you get to watch our people murdered.

I believed, and i still do, that if we could work together on some issues, we could make a decent economic power.

Imagine all the possible accomplishments....

You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one, regardless of the endless possibilities working together, observe the close future of what will happen if we won't stop fighting...

Hope that made you think a bit ; )

Damn Letter Style is back, Truely,
=Cahenn.

Now, were you as left winged before this thread?

At 5/16/05 10:11 AM, lidov wrote: cahenn, were you talking to flak gun in your second "back post"?
because if you were, don't talk to him, he is an anti semite, he won't accept anything you say, unless you say something against jews.

I've talked sense into worse, people are sometimes not aware to truths, with a bit of sense-talk, people realize that every group of people have a logic behing them, and with some more sense-talk, that the israelis have no interest whatsoever to do horrible things. after the two arguments combined, people realize that israel isn't so bad ; ) try it, and next time, lesson A in diplomacy says "hear out what your opponent has to say"... saying everybody that hates zionists is an anti semite is a generalization,

In time, he'll learn to question what he has heard, maybe I'll be able to counter some of his arguments and it'll get him to listen...

the worst anti-israel arguments i've heard were about horrible things we alledgedy did, I mean even if israelis did kill alot of arabs on 1947 which i don't believe it did, it wasn't me, or the people i consider "my people" , and it was in the middle of the war
Russia killed more then a 100 thousend germans, noone blames them even that they did worse, If i dig enough into any nation's history it did some horrible things, regardless of what israel did or did not do, and i believe in most cases it didn't,

we need to concentrate on the present, and people like flak judge people without knowing them based on dumb steriotypes...

Tahnk's cahenn, but next time answer first only with yes and no.

You are wright, not everyone who criticsizes Israel is an anti semite, but he said bad things about jews, like:I wish you didn't get the palastinian land, I wish Hitler killed you all, I hate jews and of course I am anti semite.

At 5/16/05 10:38 AM, lidov wrote: Tahnk's cahenn, but next time answer first only with yes and no.

Answering with yes and no takes away all my space for manipulation, always represent yourself without selling our your ideals but never give simple yes or no answers, giving reasons, explaining and all of that is what makes the person you're debating with think about what you said..... at least in my opinion...

btw I forgot to thank you for keeping this thread alive ;)

You are wright, not everyone who criticsizes Israel is an anti semite, but he said bad things about jews, like:I wish you didn't get the palastinian land, I wish Hitler killed you all, I hate jews and of course I am anti semite.

Harsh things indeed, I agree that at the moment i read things like this I wish people like him dead, but then I think it over, what he said comes from not knowing jews, not because he really wishes all jews dead...

your "jews" and his "jews" are very different, and two people who are sure they are correct is ususally a dengerous thing... I'm willing to actually listen to all the things he wants to say about jews, if i actually get to get a message through to him telling him who we are I'll be more then happy...

I just wish people were less steriotypic....

Cahenn

At 5/14/05 11:29 AM, flak_gun wrote:

why? ever wondered why hitler hated and wanted to kill all zionist/jews? go find out yourself and you'll know.

Hitler stated many times that he wanted to kill all jews, this thought started when he was at jail and pissed off at laws, he wanted to kill jews first of all because they somewhat invented modern law... and second of all because he believed jews were all greedy and exploiting,,,

how can babies be greedy and exploiting?
how do you justify hitler having a jewish lover?
how do you justify killing more then 6 miilion people?

what is it that you think "makes" jews greedy and exploiting? name anything and i'll dispute it i promise

At 5/16/05 09:47 AM, Inglor wrote:

At 5/14/05 11:20 AM, SkyCube wrote:

and your fucked up zionist grandfather deserved it!

for that you deserve to go to hell

No stupid, I was quoting flak_gun. I just forgot to put the colon before it.
I still would have thought it obvious what I meant though. Considering that that statement made no sense in relevance to the rest of my post, and I put "why?" beneath it, just like with the other quotes.

Oh well.

At 5/16/05 11:06 AM, SkyCube wrote:

No stupid, I was quoting flak_gun.

I know, I quoted you only since i didn't wanna copy the whole sentence :P

At 5/16/05 10:46 AM, Cahenn wrote:

At 5/16/05 10:38 AM, lidov wrote: Tahnk's cahenn, but next time answer first only with yes and no.

Answering with yes and no takes away all my space for manipulation, always represent yourself without selling our your ideals but never give simple yes or no answers, giving reasons, explaining and all of that is what makes the person you're debating with think about what you said..... at least in my opinion...

that is not what I said, I said that You should answerin yes and no first, so that people will know what are they going to read and besides reading a big post can be boring and some people won't even read whole of it and will understand your point less clearly. Dierect them at first to your general point of view, then bring explainations and so. if you are not replying to post with quote, try to call the person you are speaking to (or of) be clear.

btw I forgot to thank you for keeping this thread alive ;)

You are welcome.

And Inglor don't try replying flak - gun, i don't think he will come back here, and he will answer in his anti semite way your questions.

Cahenn will you help me with slizor (when he will be back)? "HU EGOZ KASHE LE'FITZUACH VEYARIV KASUACH LEMADAI" (hebrew)

At 5/16/05 11:14 AM, lidov wrote:

things about general discussion

well if they're not willing to read what i have to say, I don't care, I'm only willing to talk with those who wish to talk

Cahenn will you help me with slizor (when he will be back)? "HU EGOZ KASHE LE'FITZUACH VEYARIV KASUACH LEMADAI" (hebrew)

I'll talk to him, I don't think he's hard to crack, I don't think there is anything "to crack" yea, if he comes back, I'll talk to him over our disagreements, but he can have a different opinion, eventually I think he sees our right to exist here...

funny thing, i became a left wing very recently, and that made me think as well, a lot, even untill now i'm thinking a bit about it, i'm very glad you came back, things slowed down a bit when you left

At 5/16/05 11:29 AM, darklad wrote: funny thing, i became a left wing very recently, and that made me think as well, a lot, even untill now i'm thinking a bit about it, i'm very glad you came back, things slowed down a bit when you left

Are you saying I can't keep up to cahenn? ; - )
What is a left wing? because you are talking about it and I don't quite understand what it is (but it's real words meaning).