Retry: Mod policy on "sketches"

[Treviabot92-Virstein]

This issue ultimate arose out of a conflict between my friend HowSplendid and one of the moderators, TurkeyOnAStick. As it stands, the only indication that there would be some problem with submitting sketches to the Art Portal is in the Art Submission page, and even then the wording used doesn't indicate that such is prohibited. Now, I've checked everything regarding rules, including the Art Portal Terms of Use, and I haven't seen any mention of "works in progress," let alone "sketches, or doodles."

In talking with Wade Fulp on the issue, it was suggested that I bring this issue to the public through the BBS, thus this topic. However, in that topic, I made a personal attack directed at TurkeyOnAStick without even realizing that it was a personal attack, and his response to it angered me because, well, to be honest, it was a little much. But, be that as it may, I shouldn't have said what I said regardless of how it was meant.

Basically, it's a question to the mods: What's your stance on sketches? What kinds are allowed and what aren't? In your answers, if you could provide links to the kinds that are and aren't allowed, that'd be greatly appreciated.

Now, let me be clear: I am talking about sketches, not about unfinished products. There is an inherent difference between the two, enough that there's such as thing as an unfinished sketch. Also, like I said in the previous topic, if HowSplendid thought any of his stuff was unfinished, he wouldn't have posted any of his drawings (yes, he never calls them sketches) to Newgrounds, much less DeviantArt.

So far, I had gotten an answer from one moderator before the topic got shut down. I was hoping for two or three, but...Admittedly, I had also gotten answers from quite a few artists as well, but in a PM, Wade told me this:

At 9/17/15 7:01 AM, WadeFulp wrote: You could also start a topic in the art forum asking for mods and other artists to clarify what types of sketches are permitted and which are not permitted.

That said, I'd like to not go stupid on this one like I did last time, and keep this topic related to the question I posed: What kinds of sketches are allowed and what aren't?

So far,

Allowed:

Not allowed:
Unfinished/WIP

Once again, in your answers, if you could provide links to the kinds that are and aren't allowed, that'd be greatly appreciated.

[Luwano]

Common sense: If you are posting a sketch and claim it's finalised, then you're posting a more worked out version of the same drawing also calling it finalised, you are doing something wrong. To me, it would look like you are spamming WIPs to get more attention. To me, two different chronological states of a drawing can NOT both be finished. If you check "This is not a sketch" while submitting a sketch that you will work out more at a later time, you are doing something wrong.

Correct me of I am wrong, but this whole thread sounds like you are trying to get the mods to post examples until you find some that seemingly justify HowSplendid's behavior. Once again, posting sketches is not generally prohibited, but OBVIOUSLY posting works in progress (no matter how much you pretend they are "not unfinished") then arguing and calling them finalised sketches is not a great idea.

I wonder why this is brought up yet again, although several months have passed, nothing grave happened and the first thread has been locked already. There is no line you can draw and say "if this is allowed, this is allowed too". If you are not done working on it, it's not finished. If you wanna fake two submissions from one drawing, a mod might probably ask you to mark the less worked out one as sketch.

[Cairos]

Understand the word "sketch" has multiple meanings. It can mean unfinished and finished, even at the same time.
A piece can have a sketch like appearance and can still be recognized and accepted. My own work and a majority HowSplendid's can be used as examples. Executing an unfinished look, intentionally, is rarely done as it doesn't have that big of an audience here. Everyone is doing what's popular and riding coattails. Personally, I think that is why my work is here.

When it says: "We prefer that works in progress, sketches and doodles are kept out of the Art Portal." That whole sentence is solely referring to unfinished work and WIPs.

"Sketch" can mean: finished, unfinished, doodle, a work in progress... It's a stupid word.

Why do we keep that word there still? It's mainly for the casual folk to help them get an idea that we prefer finished stuff.
We could make a more elaborate rule set... But seriously, it's art, it's difficult to describe as is.
Personally, I think what can be widely accepted should be based on non-verbal etiquette. Strong observation is a skill an artist should have anyway.

[Treviabot92-Virstein]

At 2/29/16 02:35 PM, Luwano wrote: Common sense: If you are posting a sketch and claim it's finalised, then you're posting a more worked out version of the same drawing also calling it finalised, you are doing something wrong. To me, it would look like you are spamming WIPs to get more attention. To me, two different chronological states of a drawing can NOT both be finished. If you check "This is not a sketch" while submitting a sketch that you will work out more at a later time, you are doing something wrong.

I can tell you right now that HowSplendid never actually plans to work on something more after he initially finishes with it. If he hasn't taken a commission, he literally does whatever the hell he wants with his art. However, I understand where you're coming from.

At the same time, though, to bring up my audio submissions Bloody Tears and Bloody Tears Extended once again, the same logic here could be applied to those pieces, even though I did the Extended one on a whim. But, not knowing that, would you argue the same thing? Music is a form of art, after all.

At 2/29/16 02:35 PM, Luwano wrote: Correct me of I am wrong, but this whole thread sounds like you are trying to get the mods to post examples until you find some that seemingly justify HowSplendid's behavior.

I apologize that it seems that way. I'm really not trying to do that. All I'm trying to do is get it out there once and for all, in the rules, on the art submission page, everywhere relevant, a definitive opinion as to whether it's allowed or not. My feelings have no place here. I made that mistake once already, I don't intend to do so again.

At 2/29/16 02:35 PM, Luwano wrote: I wonder why this is brought up yet again, although several months have passed, nothing grave happened and the first thread has been locked already. There is no line you can draw and say "if this is allowed, this is allowed too". If you are not done working on it, it's not finished. If you wanna fake two submissions from one drawing, a mod might probably ask you to mark the less worked out one as sketch.

I bring it up now because no definitive opinion was ever reached, and I believe it's because I let my feelings get the better of me. The terms of use don't seem to have changed, and neither has the art submission page. To leave that checkbox there about sketches, and for something like what happened to HowSplendid to occur because of a preference...It's a little like if I prefer not to eat eggs (which I do), someone offers me a plate of eggs, and I smash the plate on their head. Maybe not quite that extreme, but if nothing else, I want to prevent something like that happening in the future by making it clear what is and is not allowed.

At 2/29/16 02:51 PM, Cairos wrote: Understand the word "sketch" has multiple meanings. It can mean unfinished and finished, even at the same time.
A piece can have a sketch like appearance and can still be recognized and accepted. My own work and a majority HowSplendid's can be used as examples. Executing an unfinished look, intentionally, is rarely done as it doesn't have that big of an audience here. Everyone is doing what's popular and riding coattails. Personally, I think that is why my work is here.

Yeah, that why I was initially confused, and why I am still confused.

At 2/29/16 02:51 PM, Cairos wrote: When it says: "We prefer that works in progress, sketches and doodles are kept out of the Art Portal." That whole sentence is solely referring to unfinished work and WIPs.

This. This is what clears things up. Statements like this are clear, concise...just very easily understood.

At 2/29/16 02:51 PM, Cairos wrote: "Sketch" can mean: finished, unfinished, doodle, a work in progress... It's a stupid word.

Thank you! It's so vague as to be ludicrous!

At 2/29/16 02:51 PM, Cairos wrote: Why do we keep that word there still? It's mainly for the casual folk to help them get an idea that we prefer finished stuff.
We could make a more elaborate rule set... But seriously, it's art, it's difficult to describe as is.
Personally, I think what can be widely accepted should be based on non-verbal etiquette. Strong observation is a skill an artist should have anyway.

So basically just base it off of stuff like, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all?" That does sound sensible, but, unfortunately, whether people follow it is another question entirely. But anyway, do I have it right?

[Cairos]

At 2/29/16 03:31 PM, Treviabot92-Virstein wrote: So basically just base it off of stuff like, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all?" That does sound sensible, but, unfortunately, whether people follow it is another question entirely. But anyway, do I have it right?

I hope you do have it right, haha.
As I have experienced in being a mod (I'm on a break) there will always be folks who don't follow rules.
And there are folks who break rules intentionally because "that's their thing".
The rules that we have for the Art Portal are vague enough for freedom of expression and should be interpreted and followed enough to the point where you don't be a dick.

Slowly, certain things that weren't being accepted because they contained something that "wasn't allowed" is now being recognized. It's just been a long time since anyone has attempted something fresh due to following rules to the dot, and because of that, stagnant content has just been plaguing the Art Portal due to limitations, popular opinion, and sellouts.

I honestly can't see this happening time soon. But, I would love to see the Art Portal to what it once was when it first came out with loads of experimentation. Until then I can't stand by the statement Everything by Everyone.

[SourCherryJack]

I don't think posting sketches is too big a problem in the art portal as long as they clearly look finished and well developed, I can't give examples, but I'm sure I remember a few of my favorite artists here put up some sketches from time to to time in the portal and I enjoy them. The problems with, or rather what makes your buddy Howsplendid's sketches stand out are: one. The amount of them; there were a lot of those pencil drawings and I may be mistaken, but I remember a few times when going through the portal I got three of his drawings in a row which wouldn't stand out if not for the second problem; all his work looks the same. There's nothing wrong with having a style or a favorite subject matter, but his drawings almost all consist of a female 3/4 few facing chibi-anthro character floating in a mostly white void (sometimes with scribbly background accents) done in pencil with very prominent pencil strokes. Those two together make him pop out a lot and makes it seem (regardless of whether or not you insist he puts a ton of work into these) like he's scribbling these out with little thought, which is frowned upon in the art portal.
I think the policy on sketches is fine and is in some cases underenforced even, it may come off as harsh, but the simple fact of the matter is I don't go to the art portal to look at half-realized scribbles or (seemingly) unfinished pencil work and I don't think many others do (art threads are great for those though).Whether or not he says his work is finished it doesn't look finished and I think his best course of action would be to change that... Which is what I would say to him if he were asking these questions... Which he's not. Weird.

[Treviabot92-Virstein]

At 2/29/16 05:47 PM, JackDCurleo wrote: ... Which is what I would say to him if he were asking these questions... Which he's not. Weird.

I'm the only one that seems to get a response, though. I've seen him PM Tom and Wade, and he hasn't once gotten a response from them, whereas for me the longest it might take is a few days. I don't get it, and neither does he.

As for the rest of what you said, I'll direct him to it when next I see him on Skype.

[Luwano]

You want to leave the impression, that he ocassionally "reworks" one of his "finished drawings". This is absolutely not the case. He posted dozens and dozens of pencil sketches sometimes even DIRECTLY followed by the finished drawing. It's not a random pic he went back to, it's a pattern, it's what he does to get two submissions out of one drawing.

As for the comparison to your music. Firstly I don't know how the audio community handles this, especially not the audio mods. Secondly it's totally irrelevant to this case. He doesn't "remix" the art he doesn't make it part of a bigger drawing, he is not creating something new, he simply makes a finished drawing from pencil work. And he submits both.

He was called out by TOAS not because sketches are prohibited generally, but because he submitted works in progress and thought just calling them "finished" would cover the fact that he actually finished them later.

[Treviabot92-Virstein]

At 2/29/16 06:31 PM, Luwano wrote: *giant wall of judgment*

Honestly, if I continue responding to those points so specifically, this thread is just going to get locked again because I'll once again let my feelings get the better of me. To be frank, you're coming across as very judgmental, and I am doing my utmost to not overreact to it. I've told you how HowSplendid views his actions. Whether you respect those views as I do, that is entirely up to you.

As for this little bit:

At 2/29/16 06:31 PM, Luwano wrote: ...He was called out by TOAS not because sketches are prohibited generally, but because he submitted works in progress and thought just calling them "finished" would cover the fact that he actually finished them later.

What makes you so sure that's what he was thinking? Are you inside his head? Are you psychic? Did he personally confide in you? As the first two are impossible and I'm close enough with the guy that he'd tell me who's talking to him here, I'd have to conclude that you're just posting conjecture at this point.

[Luwano]

At 2/29/16 08:15 PM, Treviabot92-Virstein wrote:
Honestly, if I continue responding to those points so specifically, this thread is just going to get locked again because I'll once again let my feelings get the better of me. To be frank, you're coming across as very judgmental, and I am doing my utmost to not overreact to it. I've told you how HowSplendid views his actions. Whether you respect those views as I do, that is entirely up to you

That's not judgement. It's fact. Looking at HowSplendid's art tab is like playing memory. You find the black&white versions and the colored versions splattered all over the page. I'm not judging him, I am trying to tell you that not "SKETCHES" are the problem here, but the FACT that he posts works in progress and just CLAIMS they are finished even though HE HIMSELF decides they need to be finished, so he does. A thing you kindly ignore throughout the whole thread. He could easily fix this by uploading them as sketches and uploading the finished versions to the portal. Problem solved, no harm done. But noooo, for a reason only you understand apparently, THEY MUST both be in the art portal. Please tell me why? Is it views? Votes? It doesn't matter how he "views" his actions. His mind does not alter reality. In the real world, if a pic is not finished, it's not finished.

As for this little bit:

(...)

What makes you so sure that's what he was thinking? Are you inside his head? Are you psychic? Did he personally confide in you? As the first two are impossible and I'm close enough with the guy that he'd tell me who's talking to him here, I'd have to conclude that you're just posting conjecture at this point.

Well admitted, I haven't talked to the mod about why he has done it. And personally, I don't care if HowSplendid's art is always similar like somebody else said or if "anybody could do it" like ToaS said. That's irrelevant and up to the artist himself. I am not criticising the art, I think it's well done.

But I don't need to be psychic, because luckily the moderator also personally pointed out, that one of his issues was that some pics are just finished versions of previous pics in the comments he made. Maybe you should re-read this:

[Treviabot92-Virstein]

At 2/29/16 08:52 PM, Luwano wrote: I'm not judging him, I am trying to tell you that not "SKETCHES" are the problem here, but the FACT that he posts works in progress and just CLAIMS they are finished even though HE HIMSELF decides they need to be finished, so he does. A thing you kindly ignore throughout the whole thread.

Ah, but see, I don't ignore what my friend's views are on his own art. I've told you them. You don't want to respect them, that's your prerogative, but please refrain from accusing me of ignoring something that doesn't exist.

He could easily fix this by uploading them as sketches and uploading the finished versions to the portal. Problem solved, no harm done. But noooo, for a reason only you understand apparently, THEY MUST both be in the art portal. Please tell me why? Is it views? Votes? It doesn't matter how he "views" his actions. His mind does not alter reality. In the real world, if a pic is not finished, it's not finished.

Now you're trying to provoke an inappropriate response from me. Please stop.

As to your question, I actually had a discussion with HowSplendid recently about another IRL person who resorted to one-upmanship for whatever reason, treating everything as a competition regardless of whether HowSplendid wanted to compete or not. He puts his art up for people to see and admire it, not to get another bean counter or keep score. He hates when art, regardless of what kind, is treated like that. If he wanted competition, he'd play CoD or Titanfall.

As for this little bit:

(...)

What makes you so sure that's what he was thinking? Are you inside his head? Are you psychic? Did he personally confide in you? As the first two are impossible and I'm close enough with the guy that he'd tell me who's talking to him here, I'd have to conclude that you're just posting conjecture at this point.

Well admitted, I haven't talked to the mod about why he has done it. And personally, I don't care if HowSplendid's art is always similar like somebody else said or if "anybody could do it" like ToaS said. That's irrelevant and up to the artist himself. I am not criticising the art, I think it's well done.

But I don't need to be psychic, because luckily the moderator also personally pointed out, that one of his issues was that some pics are just finished versions of previous pics in the comments he made. Maybe you should re-read this: *image*

I was referring to HowSplendid when I said that, and I thought I was clear when I was doing so. Obviously, if I don't explicitly state every single little iota of information, nothing is clear.

[Luwano]

Ok I apologize for being provoking, I could also have asked certain stuff nicer. We pretty much know each others viewpoints by now. Let's agree that we won't agree. I won't post here anymore. Good luck getting responses from actual mods, who actually have to deal with moderating the art portal daily.

[Template88]

Posting a black and white version as a finished piece and then coloring it and posting it again is a bit asinine its not the end of the world but ask yourself what if everyone did it? I could easily do the same thing, everybody could do that and then the portal would be flooded with redundant artwork. I support the mod in this issue, few could question turkeys desire to keep the art portal running properly. NG needs more people who have the guts to say something is wrong and also have the guts to actually do something about it.

[radiodark]

I expressed my opinion already back in the last thread, but to break it down for you:

Allowed: finished pieces. Do you want a list of drawings that I like? I'm happy to give one but I don't see how it will help.

Not allowed: unfinished and by that I mean "not good enough yet". Whether or not HowSplendid thought they were finished doesn't enter in to the equation for me.

You know, you're super invested in a very minor policy matter concerning someone else from almost a year ago that you're arguing about with strangers on the internet. Can't we all just take a deep breath and let it out? Make a cup of tea or something. While you're hanging out here, wanna draw something?

[QuiteSplendid]

I was just made aware that this thread was made without my knowledge. I appreciate that you're trying to help in some way, but this is my problem to handle on my own as I'm trying to do already. Please don't make threads like this on my behalf.

Thank you.