Synthesisers, arps, the like. FL users would be familiar with Sytrus, for example. The vast majority of you know it exists. deadmau5 uses it.
At what point is its usage merely "slapping a bunch of synths together and calling it a song," and therefore cheating?
"When anyone can do it"
Hard to say. I think when you can make something sound "good" it is never wrong to take an easy way out, but when you can make it sound "better" (or more original) by putting more effort in it, you should. Only one can be the "best" at it.
When it's "easy" to make something sound good, anyone can do it. Many people will. It will all sound the same. No one will get noticed. But it usually takes effort to make it sound better/different then anyone else. That's the only way to distinguish yourself. I think it's alway difficult to be the "best", because you have to be better then everyone else. To become the best you should use whatever you can. Even if it seems like "cheating", because it's probably not as easy as it seems, or else everyone would be the best, while there can be only one.
Don't know if that answer helps you.
All synthesis is cheating and panflutes mixed with percussive chanting is the only music with any effort behind it.
It's never cheating. I'm serious. If you start to class people as cheats for technical advancements then we're all already cheats. Making tools easy to use doesn't automatically give you an amazing track. Cheating to me would be taking stems, then layering it. But even then, there's a market for that for those that don't make music.
Cheating is such a loose concept. It changes over time, and it's always to do with technical advancement. The same concept is very prominent in the animation and games industry. Considering things like , research, mocap, rotoscoping, etc. Yet they are all widely used in the industry. The same goes for music. If you are labelling artists as cheats for using an arp, then you means well label yourself a cheat for using a sample bank, or basic synth. You means well also class people who can load more instruments as cheats because they have better systems which can handle more effects and processes.
Seriously, you can't open this bag of worms and pretend there's a line because in 5 years time this digital world will have changed again. There will be more solutions,more plugins, more hardware, more techniques that make the process quicker and easier to gain a great final result.
There is no tool that can substitute hard work and ideas. You can hear the difference.
At 11/3/15 07:44 PM, PeterSatera wrote: It's never cheating. I'm serious. If you start to class people as cheats for technical advancements then we're all already cheats. Making tools easy to use doesn't automatically give you an amazing track. Cheating to me would be taking stems, then layering it. But even then, there's a market for that for those that don't make music.
Cheating is such a loose concept. It changes over time, and it's always to do with technical advancement. The same concept is very prominent in the animation and games industry. Considering things like , research, mocap, rotoscoping, etc. Yet they are all widely used in the industry. The same goes for music. If you are labelling artists as cheats for using an arp, then you means well label yourself a cheat for using a sample bank, or basic synth. You means well also class people who can load more instruments as cheats because they have better systems which can handle more effects and processes.
Seriously, you can't open this bag of worms and pretend there's a line because in 5 years time this digital world will have changed again. There will be more solutions,more plugins, more hardware, more techniques that make the process quicker and easier to gain a great final result.
There is no tool that can substitute hard work and ideas. You can hear the difference.
^ this.
The stuff people had to know how to use 20 or even 10 years ago is in many cases obsolete. I feel like every time this argument or something like it gets presented, the logical extreme "well, isn't anything other than building your own instruments and creating your own musical system cheating?" (here's looking at you, Partch).
I think Peter's last line sums it up perfectly- while tools, knowledge, and technique help us, nothing can substitute putting your heart and mind into something full on. These tools and techniques do not make cheaters of their users, only the chance of being tempted into not putting your "all" into the work.
In the end, it is a balancing act between tools that allow greater flexibility and customization versus tools that offer greater speed and endurance. For the composer as a business-person, this is the balancing act inherent to making a living. For the composer as an artist, it is but a matter of taste. :)
Making music is never cheating. You are given tools and it's what you do with them. You strive to do what you love and create the best music you can because that's what you want. If you go around and tell yourself your cheating your demoralizing yourself as an artist when really if other people are doing it...why can't you. Peter said it well.
I'm just saying it's what you want to do. And don't let anyone tell you otherwise or any douche saying your cheating.
Am I wrong for using a loop? No, I'm using it for inspiration because I like the way it sounds and I feel as the artist I can create something unique by putting my own effort using other tools at my disposable.
At 11/3/15 06:03 PM, Troisnyx wrote: Synthesisers, arps, the like. FL users would be familiar with Sytrus, for example. The vast majority of you know it exists. deadmau5 uses it.
At what point is its usage merely "slapping a bunch of synths together and calling it a song," and therefore cheating?
why mention sytrus specifically? it's a complicated 6-op FM* synth. the presets are okay but it's hardly nexus.
like nobody's ever gonna say hey people who use EWQL or whatever just slap a bunch of sampled orchestral instruments together and call it a song. i don't understand the point of this thread at all.
* it's actually PM but let's not open that can of shitty worms again lmao
p.s. i am gay
The only possible way I could see digital synths being considered 'cheats' is that they do not require any physical skill to play, but on the flip side, being able to physically play an instrument is not a determining factor in whether one is able to create a song or not.
I don't understand how slapping some synths together and calling it a song is cheating. You do need some composition skills to be able to do something like that and you do need to have an ear for music (you need to be able to recognize when you have an off-key note for example). There are also a ton of other things that you need to do before you make something that people would enjoy listening to, not just put in some chords in the piano roll.
Sorry, but I don't quite follow your train of thought here.
YOU RE NOT A PERFORMER THEREFORE YOUR MUSIC IS INVALID^^
To those thinking that, please go chop off your limbs then ask yourself if using technology to bring your musical ideas to life is cheating....
Meanwhile artists sing on playback press play and no one cares, because THE FINAL PRODUCT IS GOOD
To me (that's just a personal opinion, but I know I'm right and usually everyone else is wrong), cheating is when you can't back up it with your knowledge, as in, if I take the tool away from you, you can't do it with something else, as in, the music is in the tools you use, not in your mind & heart.
Maybe we should do a contest like this on NG, like take away your tool and make a similar thing.
For whoever FL is the main tool, take that away and use an unfamiliar DAW, for whoever plays an instrument, take that away and do the stuff with other instrument or voice, for whoever use a microphone, take it away and record through some rewired headphones...etc.
@Eagleon @midimachine I like how quick you are to poke fun at someone's scruples, especially because this question arose as a result of someone's remark on the Audio Cleanup Thread.
@SourJovis @PeterSatera @samulis @NicholasCabraja @DJAbbic @Daru925 @Lich
The reason why I even brought it up was because once on the Audio Cleanup Thread, one ground for removable audio was that "someone slapped a bunch of synths together and called it a song." Even if these weren't the exact words, it was something along these lines. Me having heavy scruples, especially with using Sytrus -- something I'd only been using for a short time -- I had to question.
@sorohanro Now I do like that line of thinking -- perhaps a contest on Newgrounds should indeed do this thing. What do I use regularly, and can I reproduce this sound or something similar, with something else completely different?
At 11/4/15 08:02 AM, Troisnyx wrote: @Eagleon @midimachine I like how quick you are to poke fun at someone's scruples, especially because this question arose as a result of someone's remark on the Audio Cleanup Thread.
i'm not making fun of you for wanting to have integrity, what would be the point of that? all i'm saying is that the logic behind this particular scruple (re: sytrus) is flawed and that you shouldn't worry about it. i mean, i still don't understand what the original post is actually asking, but if you want to know if using sytrus is "cheating" (do you specifically mean against NG rules tho?) then the answer is a definite no! :\
p.s. i am gay
At 11/4/15 08:22 AM, midimachine wrote:At 11/4/15 08:02 AM, Troisnyx wrote: @Eagleon @midimachine I like how quick you are to poke fun at someone's scruples, especially because this question arose as a result of someone's remark on the Audio Cleanup Thread.i'm not making fun of you for wanting to have integrity, what would be the point of that? all i'm saying is that the logic behind this particular scruple (re: sytrus) is flawed and that you shouldn't worry about it. i mean, i still don't understand what the original post is actually asking, but if you want to know if using sytrus is "cheating" (do you specifically mean against NG rules tho?) then the answer is a definite no! :\
Thanks midimachine :)
I think I wanted the post to be a sort of clarification when it came to NG rules, yes, but also at what point does the use of synths just willy-nilly without editing -- for example, just booting up from Sytrus without doing much editing to it, or none at all -- class as removable audio. That was what I meant by "cheating." And I think other audio submission sites might consider that these kinds of audio should be flagged, as well.
Sometimes we can hear the difference, when people slap four-bar Cs from a few of its presets, and call it their own work, but I know it's not as exhaustive as that.
I just realized a nice parallel in the art world. If anyone has had a chance, there's a Bob Ross painting marathon going on at Twitch (I THINK it's still on even). Bob Ross' style relies heavily on speed and the conversion of "happy mistakes" and bold decisions into elements on the painting, all while using traditional oil paint in a volatile "wet-on-wet" technique. He uses big brushes to achieve tiny effects, and despite the rather regular-seeming cast of elements (e.g. 92% of his paintings have trees, and his trees typically look one of three ways), his paintings are always quite attractive. Ross himself estimated he completed 30,000 paintings in his lifetime. For me, the "secret" to his success lies in the compositional eye of the creator. For someone like Ross, he has a very good eye for how to balance out a scene and the like. While someone like myself, I often need to fidget around and try a few different angles to get things right (and even then typically need a few second opinions, particularly in graphic design).
Bob Ross' philosophy was that anyone could paint. He opened his studio and his mind to the world and encouraged thousands if not millions to try their hands at professional oil painting. I am certain many professional oil painters asked each other if using the "Bob Ross" technique was cheating rather than shelling out thousands to go to a traditional art conservatory and studying the styles of the masters. Yet Bob Ross clearly demonstrates that his art is just as valid as that of Rembrant or Picasso- his art gives him a chance to express himself, and that's all that really matters.
I think any technological or informational advantage that democratizes the craft in such a way that the actual process becomes simpler is potentially viewed as cheating. It's almost like a form of loss aversion, I think- imagine spending a large portion of your life learning to work with tape and hardware effects and then suddenly digital comes along and you can do non-destructive editing and all these software effects come along- all with things like presets and simplified usage. It's all perspective. :)
The reason why I even brought it up was because once on the Audio Cleanup Thread, one ground for removable audio was that "someone slapped a bunch of synths together and called it a song." Even if these weren't the exact words, it was something along these lines. Me having heavy scruples, especially with using Sytrus -- something I'd only been using for a short time -- I had to question.
Well I am glad that the clean up thread does exist, because after all, if a song that does not possess melody harmony or time (if not doing ambient) is truly not a song. So I don't believe "a bunch of synths slammed together" really matters unless those attributes I mentioned, don't exist. I'm sure that the People you are referring too that are related to this thread must not make good music! :P. Tho of course I'm sure you do! :)
Glad you cleared it up, regardless it's an interesting discussion!
At 11/3/15 06:03 PM, Troisnyx wrote: Synthesisers, arps, the like. FL users would be familiar with Sytrus, for example. The vast majority of you know it exists. deadmau5 uses it.
At what point is its usage merely "slapping a bunch of synths together and calling it a song," and therefore cheating?
From the word go perhaps?
I tremble with anticipation the moment today's culture of severely reality challenged equals virtue and the moral high ground calls out jean michelle jarre for his decades long bullshit.
The man's synthesizers are all clearly synchronised with sequencers so he must be a fraud.
Anyhoo, quip aside i do actually respect your concern for authenticity but i'll venture you it's not based on anything substantial if we're going solely by the questionable wisdom of one persons opinion voiced on a forum.
If synthesizers, virtual or otherwise are out then so are samples and perhaps even footage of you playing an instrument too since recording is inauthentic machine music as well. ( an actual complaint dating back to the origins of the recording industry )
Whatever shall we be left with, travelling troubadours, minstrels and bards?
My best guess is this has far more to do with how you personally connect to your music then whatever the concensus online may or may not be.
If working with synths does not give you a feeling of being personally connected between your work and the end product then i would suggest it may not be the way to go for you as an artist in the long run if it mostly leaves you feeling as if the effort has not been entirely yours for whatever reason. Of course only you can know this, i do not presume to tell you how your work makes you feel.
The only thing I view as cheating is people taking straight up loops and making an entire song out of nothing but loops.
Also, I find this kind of thing common: A lot of people mocking other producers and whatnot dont actually know a lot themselves. Yeah, they know a lot more than someone whos never done it before, but sit them down in front of an actual professional and they will be embarrassed. My self included (Though I dont pretend to know everything to begin with)
Basically my point is I absolutely hate people belittling other producers because they used a preset or something; especially since the person who is belittling is probably mistaking his "access" to material as his "understanding of material".
Not trying to be confrontational or anything, but a lot of people giving advice and stuff on these kinds of forums and reddit (Id advice everyone to avoid reddit like the plague unless youre following professionals like seamlessr on reddit or something) probably cant even give a clear, simple, accuratedefinition of compression, sidechains, or any major synthesis like additive and whatnot without having to google it, yet they pretend to have a complete understanding of it.
A lot of people will front and have this demeanor as if they know everything. Theyll correct people after spending half an hour on google to make sure theyre 100% correct. The worst ones will even put down other producers for saying something incorrect, as if they didnt just spend all that time googling it themselves.
I used to try to make friends with other producers. I learned that was a bad move the hard way, unless you make friends and dont really talk about technicalities or opinions and just hang out and share eachother music every now and then. You can look through these very forums and find people who just lack social skills entirely. Sarcasm and disrespect are so common among producers. I really wish I could find some producers who were actually nice people because its such a shame not having people to talk about producing with.
Ok, this is really ranty now.
well, as long as you arent using loops for everything in your song, youre fine in my book.
The worth of a man can be measured by the length of his reverb, and the girth of his waveform
Thees waveforme iz veri dangerous. Ve must deal vit it. squash
Some folks, as I'm learning at my new job thing, actually consider something as simple as drum programming "cheating". Reason being for the most part is that it is removing the art of recording drums and over saturating the air waves with drum set sounds that keep repeating themselves. (I mean metal/djent/rock vibe, not so much EDM)
What is happening also is that listeners ears get accustomed to the semi-realistic drum sounds. So, when someone actually does something awesome with a room mic or gets creative, they think, "hm this doesn't sound like the drumset I'm used to. This producer must not know what they are doing." When really they did something awesome with a kick drum tunnel or mic'ed two separate drum sets for the effect they wanted etc, etc.
Now with regard to synth creation, I think that doing "cookie cutting" preset techniques is kind of cheating. I'm guilty of it myself but for speed they can be cool as a base. It's like buying a spice mix for convenience when it MIGHT taste better if you added each spice yourself, but how else can you figure out what the recipe needs without looking at the ingredients? A good pallate helps, but we all need to start somewhere.
Hoping that new producers can avoid "auto writing" so that in general songs that have an automated sound are recognized as such. I think that most of us can recognize a Garageband Loop, so I'm sure picking up on a Sytrus preset is right around the corner :)
At 11/4/15 10:42 PM, Rennh wrote: The only thing I view as cheating is people taking straight up loops and making an entire song out of nothing but loops.
Also, I find this kind of thing common: A lot of people mocking other producers and whatnot dont actually know a lot themselves. Yeah, they know a lot more than someone whos never done it before, but sit them down in front of an actual professional and they will be embarrassed. My self included (Though I dont pretend to know everything to begin with)
Basically my point is I absolutely hate people belittling other producers because they used a preset or something; especially since the person who is belittling is probably mistaking his "access" to material as his "understanding of material".
Not trying to be confrontational or anything, but a lot of people giving advice and stuff on these kinds of forums and reddit (Id advice everyone to avoid reddit like the plague unless youre following professionals like seamlessr on reddit or something) probably cant even give a clear, simple, accuratedefinition of compression, sidechains, or any major synthesis like additive and whatnot without having to google it, yet they pretend to have a complete understanding of it.
A lot of people will front and have this demeanor as if they know everything. Theyll correct people after spending half an hour on google to make sure theyre 100% correct. The worst ones will even put down other producers for saying something incorrect, as if they didnt just spend all that time googling it themselves.
I used to try to make friends with other producers. I learned that was a bad move the hard way, unless you make friends and dont really talk about technicalities or opinions and just hang out and share eachother music every now and then. You can look through these very forums and find people who just lack social skills entirely. Sarcasm and disrespect are so common among producers. I really wish I could find some producers who were actually nice people because its such a shame not having people to talk about producing with.
Ok, this is really ranty now.
well, as long as you arent using loops for everything in your song, youre fine in my book.
I think the biggest thing to make clear is the difference between
1. people who learned theory and played an instrument and never used a sequencer until really late
2. people who used a sequencer and know everything about sidechains etc but picked up theory late, or don't use it at all,
3. people who are a balance of both.
I fall into category 1, and while people now say my mixing is good etc, I can tell my techniques in an overly simplistic way. I don't know what sidechains and things are, but I do know the makings of a good piece, i.e. musicality, and if I ever review, a good chunk of my review would be like this.
And I agree. Belittling other producers is wrong. The one thing that could be considered "belittling," but actually isn't, is to call out hypocritical producers. And making an entire song out of loops is wrong.
My beef with Sytrus is that the arps are essentially loops. In a recent piece of mine that isn't on NG, I did use said arps for atmosphere, and as a driving bass line. Essentially, I could do the same with soundfonts, my old go-to tools, but what got me into a panic was that I was essentially using loops. I almost NEVER use loops...
At 11/5/15 04:45 AM, Troisnyx wrote: My beef with Sytrus is that the arps are essentially loops. In a recent piece of mine that isn't on NG, I did use said arps for atmosphere, and as a driving bass line. Essentially, I could do the same with soundfonts, my old go-to tools, but what got me into a panic was that I was essentially using loops. I almost NEVER use loops...
just think of it as a macro for manually sequencing an arpeggio. it's nothing like using a prefab loop.
btw FL has a built in channel arpeggiator for just about every stock generator, including fruity soundfont player!
p.s. i am gay
At 11/5/15 06:00 AM, midimachine wrote:At 11/5/15 04:45 AM, Troisnyx wrote: My beef with Sytrus is that the arps are essentially loops. In a recent piece of mine that isn't on NG, I did use said arps for atmosphere, and as a driving bass line. Essentially, I could do the same with soundfonts, my old go-to tools, but what got me into a panic was that I was essentially using loops. I almost NEVER use loops...just think of it as a macro for manually sequencing an arpeggio. it's nothing like using a prefab loop.
btw FL has a built in channel arpeggiator for just about every stock generator, including fruity soundfont player!
That puts my mind at ease. Thanks again, midimachine.
I've no idea how a macro works in this case, but I suppose that'll be a question for another time.
Cheating simply doesn't exist in "art" in general (music, drawing, etc.)
Suck my kick!
At 11/5/15 08:25 AM, Troisnyx wrote: I've no idea how a macro works in this case, but I suppose that'll be a question for another time.
oh, i meant that in the general sense of the word. it's a shortcut, if that makes more sense
p.s. i am gay
At 11/4/15 08:02 AM, Troisnyx wrote: @Eagleon @midimachine I like how quick you are to poke fun at someone's scruples, especially because this question arose as a result of someone's remark on the Audio Cleanup Thread.
Bit late, but yeah, I poke fun because the question to me didn't make sense and because there are no scruples. It's usually pretty obvious when someone slaps together a bunch of synths and calls it a day because it sounds terrible. Synths have very rigid and therefore very powerful sounds - they sound like one thing, and it's very difficult to introduce the kind of complex dynamics of real instruments that softens their blow in classical arrangements. That means that their range is extremely limited within a song. When you introduce more than one, you're playing with fire, which IMO is why most electronic producers take the "mud is evil" approach - they aren't willing to bend their song to the extremely obvious modulations that occur when simple repeating waveforms combine.
Ever try to drop a classical midi into a synth channel? It doesn't sound terrible because the synth sounds terrible, it sounds bad because it wasn't composed for that instrument. If someone uses a synth preset, and their composition fits perfectly, and everything comes together into something that sounds qualitatively good, that makes them a good composer and the composition and song good. They might have no clue how to use Sytrus or the mixing tools available to them, they might not have anything but a step sequencer, they might not know what their own name is because they're blasted out of their mind on drugs, but they aren't cheating. They're making music.
