Zero bombed fellas

[sebastien01]

Diluate the zero bombers. You have to vote for every audio submission on this topic 1-5 stars. Not zero! I'm looking at you! 8-| I guess it is understood for everyone, excepted for the zero bomber that will read this topic. Whatever! We can make the songs of every newgrounder more representative of what it's value really is by just voting for these zero bomber's victims.

Post your zero bombed songs here so the good newgrounders will repair it as well as they can.

[sebastien01]

At 10/28/15 08:25 PM, sebastien01 wrote: Diluate the zero bombers. You have to vote for every audio submission on this topic 1-5 stars. Not zero! I'm looking at you! 8-| I guess it is understood for everyone, excepted for the zero bomber that will read this topic. Whatever! We can make the songs of every newgrounder more representative of what it's value really is by just voting for these zero bomber's victims.

Post your zero bombed songs here so the good newgrounders will repair it as well as they can.

I got 3 in the last week :

Maple Leaf Rag
Deep Rest
Romance Piano Loop

[midimachine]

i hereby vow to vote zero on every single song posted itt

[johnfn]

At 10/28/15 10:23 PM, midimachine wrote: i hereby vow to vote zero on every single song posted itt

(SARCASTIC) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- (JERK)
                            ^YOU ARE HERE

[midimachine]

At 10/29/15 01:45 AM, johnfn wrote:

At 10/28/15 10:23 PM, midimachine wrote: i hereby vow to vote zero on every single song posted itt

(SARCASTIC) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- (JERK)
                            ^YOU ARE HERE

hey, you could always just post my songs itt

jk it won't work cause i already voted 5 on all of them :v

[Noisysundae]

Get b0mbed every time my new one has competition tag like Halloween2015. Looks like they desperately thirst for the prize.

[EvilRaccoon]

Do people still look at scores?

[Onefin]

At 10/29/15 08:19 AM, PeterSatera wrote: Do people still look at scores?

I mean, when you search for audio on Newgrounds, they are usually by default ordered by score. Since some people aren't smart enough to change the sort by option, the songs they see first and assume are the best are the ones with the highest score.

[sebastien01]

At 10/29/15 08:33 AM, 1f1n1ty wrote:

At 10/29/15 08:19 AM, PeterSatera wrote: Do people still look at scores?

I mean, when you search for audio on Newgrounds, they are usually by default ordered by score. Since some people aren't smart enough to change the sort by option, the songs they see first and assume are the best are the ones with the highest score.

Exact! It would be so nice that newgrounds let us know who are the zero bombers, show their names to everyone, so we can make all of his submissions go down to 1-2 stars. Then newgrounders will have nothing to win with zero bombing.

If UserX votes 3 times 0-1 star in a row on 5 stars submissions with a minimum of downloads/views (The real public appreciation of your songs is here), he gets on the public list of "zero bombers". Then send him back what he deserves. It would be awesome. Is it possible to know if it's always the same person voting low on your submissions? I mean, 3 in a week, is it the norm?

[sebastien01]

At 10/29/15 08:19 AM, PeterSatera wrote: Do people still look at scores?

When is the last time you sorted songs by score and looked the last pages? There are some really good ones there. And yes, a lot of people think that when they sort songs by score, the best ones will always be on the first pages.

[TheBetterAudioPortal]

Yeah, people keep zero bombing my tracks :(

• Unpublished Submission

[johnfn]

At 10/29/15 02:28 AM, midimachine wrote: hey, you could always just post my songs itt

Dang, that would have been much better. Gotta up my snarky game

[EvilRaccoon]

At 10/29/15 07:29 PM, sebastien01 wrote:

At 10/29/15 08:33 AM, 1f1n1ty wrote:

At 10/29/15 08:19 AM, PeterSatera wrote: Do people still look at scores?

I mean, when you search for audio on Newgrounds, they are usually by default ordered by score. Since some people aren't smart enough to change the sort by option, the songs they see first and assume are the best are the ones with the highest score.

Exact! It would be so nice that newgrounds let us know who are the zero bombers, show their names to everyone, so we can make all of his submissions go down to 1-2 stars. Then newgrounders will have nothing to win with zero bombing.

If UserX votes 3 times 0-1 star in a row on 5 stars submissions with a minimum of downloads/views (The real public appreciation of your songs is here), he gets on the public list of "zero bombers". Then send him back what he deserves. It would be awesome. Is it possible to know if it's always the same person voting low on your submissions? I mean, 3 in a week, is it the norm?

I'm aware of how it works, and I've had a few light conversations in threads with Tom Fulp, etc. We've discussed this a few times, and he's left between a rock and a hard place because people revolt against any sort of change. This is because zero bombers aren't the problem, the system is and that's what needs looked at. If you give people the opportunity to be selfish and hidden it's the perfect crime, but the solution is not to out the blammers so we can retaliate. That's a downward spiral, that'll cause a greater fragmented community as people will revenge vote. If anything you'll encourage blam accounts, and they wont have any content for you to revenge upon.

Currently wanting a high score has become pointless. It has, whether you want it or not. A high score doesn't certify followers or get you recognition. If it did, everyone with top 5's would have the most fans, they don't. You'll gain fans from your tracks quality and preference. The only thing it does is it naturally puts you to the top of the scoring organization, and since most entries will start of with a perfect score before dropping they are the tracks that end up at the top first. So with acknowledgement that the top scores are most likely the newest tracks, then the score becomes completely useless at branding quality. That's why caring about it is nonsensical, because you'll never overcome the new tracks which have a perfect score.

@Sebastien01 If you are worried people aren't "smart enough" to know this, then you have to question are these the type of people you value to listen to your music and make judgement on it? Or like most, you're just fishing for hits and comments saying "good track!"? "This is why I asked, does anyone really look at them anymore?", because people understand the way Newgrounds scoring algorithm is designed to sort content. They know what is at the top before looking at the top, it's all the new tracks with perfect 5's. We understand that the scoring dependency is the issue, not the zero bombing. Tom knows, we've discussed the way it works, Zero bombers to death, score sorting, represenation, likes, community, etc and some quick fixes that could be implemented. But ultimately they'll be masking over the problem.

The problem has to be solved with a mix of science and psychology. Knowing that positive impact, is better than negative. For instance, favs, likes and comments all inspired growth and community interaction. Not dislikes and blams which are negative and isolating factors. Understanding that viral content (which is what you actually want) is driven by appeal which drives popularity and cycles until the content becomes outdated, or something better comes along. The solution isn't to see who the blammers are so we can revenge on them and their content. That's a bad idea @1f1n1ty. No, Zero bombers have surfaced due to a deep rooted dependency on sorting via scores. Zero Bombing is nothing more of a by-product of problem the current system has.

TL:DR
Fuhgeddaboudit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz1K9UCpLRo

[Onefin]

At 10/30/15 10:55 AM, PeterSatera wrote: That's a bad idea @1f1n1ty.

What's a bad idea? I don't recall stating a solution to anything. I simply stated a fact that I think is true because that's how my brain worked when I first found NG.

[sebastien01]

At 10/30/15 10:55 AM, PeterSatera wrote:
@Sebastien01 If you are worried people aren't "smart enough" to know this, then you have to question are these the type of people you value to listen to your music and make judgement on it? Or like most, you're just fishing for hits and comments saying "good track!"? "This is why I asked, does anyone really look at them anymore?", because people understand the way Newgrounds scoring algorithm is designed to sort content. They know what is at the top before looking at the top, it's all the new tracks with perfect 5's. We understand that the scoring dependency is the issue, not the zero bombing. Tom knows, we've discussed the way it works, Zero bombers to death, score sorting, represenation, likes, community, etc and some quick fixes that could be implemented. But ultimately they'll be masking over the problem.

The problem has to be solved with a mix of science and psychology. Knowing that positive impact, is better than negative. For instance, favs, likes and comments all inspired growth and community interaction. Not dislikes and blams which are negative and isolating factors. Understanding that viral content (which is what you actually want) is driven by appeal which drives popularity and cycles until the content becomes outdated, or something better comes along. The solution isn't to see who the blammers are so we can revenge on them and their content. That's a bad idea @1f1n1ty. No, Zero bombers have surfaced due to a deep rooted dependency on sorting via scores. Zero Bombing is nothing more of a by-product of problem the current system has.

TL:DR
Fuhgeddaboudit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz1K9UCpLRo

The problem has to be solved with a mix of science and psychology, I agree with that. Punishing zero bombers (They are like terrorists here) :p with computer science to make people not willing to do it. These two domains work very well together.

I want to clarify that I don't want just to get views or comments like "good track!", its not a personnal cause, its for the best interest of all the newgrounds audio portal.

When someone get zero bombed, and post a link to his submission here I will for sure go vote for him 1-5 stars. Not zero! :)

Anyways, let's go to a more pacific way to get trough it.

If I could add something to the audio portal, it would be a button below the actual voting section "This audio doesn't deserve 0-1 star votes". So these zero bombers would just be bypassed if enough newgrounders disagree with a very low vote on a very good submission. It would make all the future audio more representative of its real appreciation on a "sort by score" research. This button would appear on audio submissions only if you have 80, 100 views and at least 5, 10 downloads, as you wish. 20, 30 downloads? I wouldn't mind if my downloads/views ratio wouldn't be high enough to be included, I'm trying to find a solution to make the voting system more efficient for everybody.

And, I have a question, if I had multiple accounts connecting from the same adress, let's say around 20 accounts, is it then possible to vote 20 times on one submission? I just ask because I don't have multiple accounts, is it possible? If so, the other solution to dodge zerobombers is to create multiple accounts and use them when you get low scores on a good downloads/views. Or, use them as a zero bomber.

[poinl]

At 10/30/15 10:55 AM, PeterSatera wrote: Zero Bombing is nothing more of a by-product of problem the current system has.

This^

[sebastien01]

At 10/30/15 06:38 PM, poinl wrote:

At 10/30/15 10:55 AM, PeterSatera wrote: Zero Bombing is nothing more of a by-product of problem the current system has.

This^

Well I forget about it now, but I'll still go vote for everyone posting songs here after a zerobomber's job.

[sebastien01]

At 10/29/15 09:07 PM, TheBetterAudioPortal wrote: Yeah, people keep zero bombing my tracks :(
http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/651079

This song is so assome! Btw you have real good quality content in term of music on your other submissions! The only thing I would go deeper with the lyrics. xD

[EvilRaccoon]

At 10/30/15 05:51 PM, 1f1n1ty wrote:

At 10/30/15 10:55 AM, PeterSatera wrote: That's a bad idea @1f1n1ty.

What's a bad idea? I don't recall stating a solution to anything. I simply stated a fact that I think is true because that's how my brain worked when I first found NG.

Apologies. I was meant to put in @sebastien01. Who stated we should out zero bombers.

At 10/30/15 06:47 PM, sebastien01 wrote: Well I forget about it now, but I'll still go vote for everyone posting songs here after a zerobomber's job.

There's nothing wrong with voting what you think it deserves, in an ideal NG's that's what would happen. But if you are voting on something because someone has said they were zero bombed it makes little to no impact, also there's no way to prove that currently, you would have to take their word for it. It may not even show when people are 0 bombed. As tracks can be quite high with 5s to start with, then someone hits 0 on it, the track sits at about 3/5, which is still above average. But...it's still technically has been 0 bombed. At that point even though you vote on it fairly, there's nothing a single fair vote can do to make it a listed track, or to enforce a score which is of correct representation.

My point is, a single 0 bomb can and will cause an entire tracks score to be misrepresented. Therefore it's completely pointless to look at them, care about them or depend on them for feedback of what people like and dislike, you'll never know how to improve from looking at a single score averaged score. There's nothing to gain from it, but everything to lose if you let it get to you.

Hang about here for a while, a year or so. You'll see this type of post pop up again and again, and the same answer occurs from most users. Nobody cares about the scores, because it means absolutely nothing. Heck, i have tracks made when I started this NG's account in 2008 which have higher scores than tracks I made in 2014. So by score, it would imply I have gradually become worse. Which is BS. So really, they mean absolutely nothing.

[EvilRaccoon]

At 10/30/15 06:29 PM, sebastien01 wrote: If I could add something to the audio portal, it would be a button below the actual voting section "This audio doesn't deserve 0-1 star votes". So these zero bombers would just be bypassed if enough newgrounders disagree with a very low vote on a very good submission. It would make all the future audio more representative of its real appreciation on a "sort by score" research. This button would appear on audio submissions only if you have 80, 100 views and at least 5, 10 downloads, as you wish. 20, 30 downloads? I wouldn't mind if my downloads/views ratio wouldn't be high enough to be included, I'm trying to find a solution to make the voting system more efficient for everybody.

And, I have a question, if I had multiple accounts connecting from the same adress, let's say around 20 accounts, is it then possible to vote 20 times on one submission? I just ask because I don't have multiple accounts, is it possible? If so, the other solution to dodge zerobombers is to create multiple accounts and use them when you get low scores on a good downloads/views. Or, use them as a zero bomber.

Someone has suggested that, take away the 0. If you did that, people would just vote 1 instead. 1 would become the new 0, and your margin for 1 blamming would grow instead of 0. Allowing the button to only appear after 100 views would also just delay the 0 blamming. All it would do is maintain new tracks for longer in the high scores, they'd eventually be voted down. And yes, if you have 20 accounts, yup you could vote 20 times on a single track.

The voting system isn't efficient for anyone. Think about what you're saying though. You're trying to find a solution for imposing a negative impact on a users tracks and how it effects the site. That's the problem, there shouldn't BE a way to negatively impact someones track. Currently the portal system starts your content on a high, then knocks you down. What it needs to do is reverse that. Start you off at a foundation then let you rise without possible loss, the negativity can come from the feedback/comments. That's why the Like and Fav system is preferred by other social media (johnfn did point me out to some other things that do depend on the star/score rated system, but all i found was that it wasn't full proof. People abused it, and the websites wernt about self publishing which changed things a lot.)

Think about it. You make a track. You get 10 likes. You make track two. You get 30 likes. You make track three. You get 15 likes. From that, and your number of views you know statistically what is more liked by an audience, and can use that to further yourself. For a second, lets pretend blamming is solved. Well, say your tracks get 2/5, 5/5 and 3/5. Is there any way to really know how it was received? You have no stats telling you how many people contributed to the 2/5. It could be 10 people. Or the 5/5, it could be 2 people. or say the 3/5. It could be 5 people. It doesn't help at all, not in the slightest. All it would do is sort more content by score. Realistically, the best and most popular content should be at the forefront of the site, right now you have to search for it. So NG's has to change its thinking, it has to make popularity and favoritism of the masses the important feature. And we know that works, because the proof is there. It's Youtube.

[ZipZipper]

At 10/29/15 10:04 PM, dem0lecule wrote: Good, why not start with you, OP.
http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/651018

Daaaaammmmmnnnnnnnnnn!!!!! I just wanted to say that was really epic of you for doing that!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Daru925]

At 10/30/15 07:08 PM, lasse wrote: inb4 someone makes a thread to combat all the 1-bombing going on in this thread

My thoughts exactly, whatever the system, there will always be people to exploit and manipulate it to their best interests.
I think it is not nice to assume, out of bitterness, that "people" are so dumb they cant browse and look for music they like, get past the rating and most importantly keep track on you if they like what you do. Focus on those people, not the haters.

You know what 90% of the contents top of the pop on any site, i dont like it, i hate it with passion.
Demand me to vote on it and you can be sure im gonna low rate it.
It is not because im told it is DA BEST EVAH that it is.
Im confident most people are capable of thinking like that. My fellow earthlings arent oysters.

Maybe 2 out of 5 for the production effort, on the principle that: I dont like it doesnt mean it is shit.
I hate justin bieber fakegangsta rap pop dumbstep and EDM (yeah i like "good" old grandad techno and electronic music, not this whiny epic dumbstuff put your hands up like brainless monkeys sound) but hey, thats my opinion, and if many other people like those genres, it is probably because they are far from bad after all.

Here i either vote 4 or 2, and fine tune it if i make review MAYBE. With the occasional random 5 stars.

Bottom line, why trying to control others' opinions and behaviour Y'en a qu'ont essaye, y zont eu des problemes! when this waste of time and energy could be put into making such great content that no one want to zero bomb it and instead tell their whole family/facebook/bingo club/ network about it?
Stop whining about "people" thanks.

[johnfn]

At 10/30/15 08:53 PM, PeterSatera wrote: You get 10 likes. You make track two. You get 30 likes. You make track three. You get 15 likes. From that, and your number of views you know statistically what is more liked by an audience, and can use that to further yourself.

Not that I want to get wrapped into this conversation again, but you actually don't know that at all. The 30 liked song could have been featured on Geometry Dash, or could have gotten a ton of hits due to advertising, and the 10 like song could be the best of the batch but made before you became more popular. Likes are always proportional to views and therefore rarely have a strong bearing on how good a song actually is.

[EvilRaccoon]

At 10/31/15 07:27 PM, johnfn wrote: Not that I want to get wrapped into this conversation again, but you actually don't know that at all. The 30 liked song could have been featured on Geometry Dash, or could have gotten a ton of hits due to advertising, and the 10 like song could be the best of the batch but made before you became more popular. Likes are always proportional to views and therefore rarely have a strong bearing on how good a song actually is.

I see what you mean in that your listens would be higher, but you aren't thinking of how it would be implemented, it's not a tag on. You can track internal and external activity, linking, etc. Even then you don't need listens to statistically understand preference. Favs alone will do that. You may not agree with it, but it's works. I'm not sure if you run any social media or any other websites that have analytics, eg. Google business Analytics. YT, Twitter, etc but you can easily define internal and external usage. The like and fav system isn't just about thumbs up, it goes really deep.

Basic things such as,
- Numbers and percentages reached (internal and external).
- Readable sizable activity of growth overtime, post likes and general account favs.
- Internal new user activity (see how many users are continued visitors, and those who are new), from what and when.
- Country, sex, age of appeal on tracks and accounts on internal sources.
- Engagement over a duration, eg, collective statistics.
- Graphs showing all this above etc.
- And loads more,

So really, I do know this, because we already do it on other websites. And all this is taken from the fav/ like system, IP and general user accounts, etc. And although it's not a perfect representation I can tell you from what I know (GF used to do social media as a job), that it can define growth and appeal if you use it right. You can really start to understand your target audience and adapt to that.

You argue against it, in favor of the current system. But can you tell me how many people voted and listened to your tracks from external /internal? Nope. Can you tell me where those votes came from? Nope. Can you tell me something basic like what track has the most feedback statistically enjoyed on it? Nope. Nothing. I can go on and on, and it all stems from the like and fav system. So your support of the current system is extremely flawed. The 0-5 voting system we currently gives us zero feedback. It has no statistical or analytical value. Yet the entire site is completely dependent on it to sort the content, treating it as a fact of quality. So if it's 1) incorrect for sorting, and 2) of absolutely NO use to the user. Then why would anyone want to keep it is beyond me.

[LexRodent]

At 10/29/15 03:06 AM, Noisysundae wrote: Get b0mbed every time my new one has competition tag like Halloween2015. Looks like they desperately thirst for the prize.

This just happened to me. And when I get 0 bombed, I have noticed a two 0's in a row pattern.
I have the feeling someone feels intimidated, or at least, that's what I like to think.

This smells indeed like some musician trying to look good by making others look bad,

Any suspects ?

[NicholasCabraja]

Can we at least be grateful they can only do it once and not vote numerous times on the same song?
Sure people get Zero bombed but I believe that good music gets... or will eventually get noticed. All thats required is the artists persistence both with the people and their music.

[sebastien01]

At 10/29/15 10:04 PM, dem0lecule wrote: Good, why not start with you, OP.
http://www.newgrounds.com/audio/listen/651018

Hey I didn't see this thank you! What you doing is real good! I mean your answer and above it your music!

At 10/31/15 02:12 PM, dem0lecule wrote: I really like these cute little threads, because they remind me how problematic is our voting system, and it still hasn't been fixed. Once a while someone made a thread about zero bombing, then the newbies complained about everything, and the old regs defended the system at all cost (because they used to this).

I love dramas!

It's a big drama! We need a movie about it :D

[sebastien01]

At 11/3/15 03:05 PM, NicholasCabraja wrote: Can we at least be grateful they can only do it once and not vote numerous times on the same song?
Sure people get Zero bombed but I believe that good music gets... or will eventually get noticed. All thats required is the artists persistence both with the people and their music.

They can do it once until they get 20 accounts. I'm curious about how many zero bombers have multiple accounts.
I agree with you about persistence with people and music. Advertising your music on multiple plateforms will make zero bombers pointless. But for every good projects exclusively on newgrounds, it results in a lost of probability that someone hears your stuff. There is a difference of view/day from the time I was not 0 bombed to after. I noticed it, and it's real on every 0 bombed submission.

The voting system is really better than before but it can still be better. It's just my opinion ;)

[NicholasCabraja]

They can do it once until they get 20 accounts. I'm curious about how many zero bombers have multiple accounts.

I agree with you about persistence with people and music. Advertising your music on multiple plateforms will make zero bombers pointless. But for every good projects exclusively on newgrounds, it results in a lost of probability that someone hears your stuff. There is a difference of view/day from the time I was not 0 bombed to after. I noticed it, and it's real on every 0 bombed submission.

Totally agree with you. In fact I support notifications to see who is rating.
But honestly who has the time to make 20 or more accounts to rate a movie or song? Get a life people!

[Rennh]

this is kind of random. but for me i just divide views by downloads and that tells me if my song is liked or not.

Usually about 1 download for 10 views is how my songs go. I think one is something like 1 download per 5 views. I think its fair and about what the deserve relative to other people. Im happy with 100 views 10 downloads atleast.

As a sidenote, I wish there was a tiny unobtrusive popup around the "views" area that said something like "Dont forget to leave feedback ლ(́◉◞౪◟◉‵ლ)"

Feedback is very important to me and I would think most producers. Encouraging it without being annoying about it via the website (and thus not via begging in the description) would be awesome.