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N G A D M '14: Final Results

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Echo
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N G A D M '14: Final Results 2014-11-04 16:46:50 Reply

YES. It's that time of year again. After an INSANE four months of vicious musical battles, across the whole nine yards of musical genres, between a whopping 184 Newgrounds musicians, we have finally narrowed it down to the winner of the Newgrounds Audio Deathmatch 2014 (NGADM). If you're particularly behind and have no idea what this contest is, then check out the Auditions thread. It should come as no surprise that it's too late to audition though!

Before we go ahead and announce the winner from the two finalists (garlagan and SoundChris + Hitokirito), we simply can't neglect to thank all of the people who made this tremendous contest possible this year. First and foremost, we have camoshark, who did a wonderful job of keeping the astoundingly well-formatted Pairing & Results List organised till the end. Artist-Lost needs to also be credited once again for making the NGADM logo for the THIRD year in a row, which you can see below or in this page. SourJovis and etherealwinds deserve a mention for making some interesting stats for Round 1. We'd also like to thank all the people who gave suggestions and supported the contest (and we're always up for listening to more feedback if you'd be so kind to shoot a PM our way!). Of course, we additionally want to thank all the 184 people who signed up for the contest. Last but certainly not least, huge credit has to be given to the judging team who did an absolutely PHENOMENAL job judging the submissions: Step, Neon-Bard, samulis, MetalRenard, headphoamz and midimachine. I can't stress enough how much work all the judges did for this contest, and they deserve all the credit they can get!

And now, after a battle between polarising genres, the judges have reached a conclusion for who should snag that #1 spot. Without further ado, here are the results:

Group 01: garlagan vs SoundChris + Hitokirito

- garlagan
--- Step: 9.7
--- Neon-Bard: 9.2
--- headphoamz: 9.9
--- MetalRenard: 9.2
--- midimachine: 8.4
--- samulis: 8.3
AVERAGE: 9.12

- SoundChris + Hitokirito
--- Step: 9.2
--- Neon-Bard: 8.8
--- headphoamz: 9.8
--- MetalRenard: 8
--- midimachine: 8
--- samulis: 6.2
AVERAGE: 8.33

======================
WINNER: garlagan
======================

Congratulations to garlagan for 1st place, SoundChris + Hitokirito for 2nd place and johnfn/PirateCrab for joint third place! It takes a lot to get to the top 3 from 184 participants, so these talented individuals deserve all the praise they can get. Here's a reminder of the prizes:

FIRST PLACE
$100
First Place NGADM '14 Forum Signature
Frontpage Showcase

SECOND PLACE
$75
Second Place NGADM '14 Forum Signature
Frontpage Showcase

THIRD PLACE
$50
Third Place NGADM '14 Forum Signature
Frontpage Showcase

The forum signatures will be on their way very soon! Rhunyc will be making the forum signatures this year. Be sure to check out his FANTASTIC artwork and show your support. The winners will be contacted about the rest of the prizes shortly.

And that ends the contest. It was one hell of a ride and we hope you enjoyed it, whether you were spectating or participating. If you've got any questions, feedback, hate mail or love letters, send a PM our way and we'll be glad to help. With that said, here's to another successful NGADM!

N G A D M '14: Final Results

SoundChris
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Response to N G A D M '14: Final Results 2014-11-04 16:55:04 Reply

Congrats garlagan! You did a great job and deserve the win :D Hopefully we will meet again next year and i can come up with a running system then ... i really tried my best and until 1 hour before the deadlines end i really didnt even know if i even could export anything. But i didnt want to let the contest explode so the finals would not take part at all. So finally it was possible to export something. @garlagan : It was a pleasure to meet you and i really didnt know you could sing like bellamy! Great job and congrats you wiener :D

Thanks to the judges for investing that much time and effort in this contest, especially step and echo who are the parents of the contests :D


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Neon-Bard
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Response to N G A D M '14: Final Results 2014-11-04 17:16:35 Reply

Congratulations @garlagan, @SoundChris + @Hitokirito, and @PirateCrab for doing such a wonderful job in the competition. That being said, I feel as if EVERYONE who participated deserves praise - give yourselves a pat on the back! It's been a real pleasure listening to all of you talented folks over the past months; honestly, you have all inspired me to create better music. Kudos to the community for coming together once again to celebrate the NGADM! :D


If you have a moment, check out some of my work:
[Music here on Newgrounds] [Soundcloud]

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Step
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Response to N G A D M '14: Final Results 2014-11-04 18:20:42 Reply

Seriously everyone, I can't stress enough how honoured I am to have hosted this contest, and how grateful I am to everyone involved. Thanks once again to all the participants and above all, thanks to Tom for generously offering the prize money. Be sure to check out camoshark's newspost for a list of ALL the NGADM 2014 entries, and check out some playlists here.

Also, forum signatures! Once again, these were made by the talented Rhunyc so be sure to check his art out, and props to him for finishing them under considerably short notice!

@garlagan: http://www.newgrounds.com/dump/item/03b98502a1afd37f7662c954bee78d3d
@SoundChris: http://www.newgrounds.com/dump/item/ae4c67981c5cd9839e1873642327ac5e
@Hitokirito: http://www.newgrounds.com/dump/item/d3b047923d152c0290b5b3f554514824
@PirateCrab: http://www.newgrounds.com/dump/item/e88cd2d56b8a286ca66c0f002f80174b
@johnfn: http://www.newgrounds.com/dump/item/c0b433e74ade398c1738cf9d8da78d16

Tom has contacted each of you about the prize money. As for a frontpage showcase, I'm about to send PMs asking each of you which track you'd like frontpaged, and they will be put on the Newgrounds front page for a week whenever an opening is available.

That should be everything!

N G A D M '14: Final Results


Review Request Club | CHECK THIS OUT | Formerly Supersteph54 | I'm an Audio Moderator. PM me for Audio Portal help.

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BlueOceans
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Response to N G A D M '14: Final Results 2014-11-04 18:35:00 Reply

Besides for the music, which is awesome, my favorite part of NGADM is reading the judge's reviews. They teach me a lot about music and different perspectives people have for music. I would like to thank all the judges that left reviews for the participants.

etherealwinds
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Response to N G A D M '14: Final Results 2014-11-04 20:28:37 Reply

Congratulations everybody! I'm proud of each and every one of you <3


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midimachine
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Response to N G A D M '14: Final Results 2014-11-04 21:07:13 Reply

ya did good, kids


p.s. i am gay

Ceevro
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Response to N G A D M '14: Final Results 2014-11-04 21:59:58 Reply

Well, despite getting KO-ed in the first round, I have to say that I met a lot of great people in this contest, and learned more about my mix in these four months than I learned in the entire time before that. This was definitely well worth the time, and I will definitely be entering next time!

See you all soon!

-Ceevro

Phonometrologist
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Response to N G A D M '14: Final Results 2014-11-04 22:23:25 Reply

At 11/4/14 04:46 PM, Echo wrote: --- Step: 9.2
--- Neon-Bard: 8.8
--- headphoamz: 9.8
--- MetalRenard: 8
--- midimachine: 8
--- samulis: 6.2

LOL Sam... you really played the antithesis of Echo in this contest

But I enjoyed your reviews regardless

samulis
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Response to N G A D M '14: Final Results 2014-11-05 00:34:13 Reply

At 11/4/14 10:23 PM, Phonometrologist wrote:
At 11/4/14 04:46 PM, Echo wrote: --- Step: 9.2
--- Neon-Bard: 8.8
--- headphoamz: 9.8
--- MetalRenard: 8
--- midimachine: 8
--- samulis: 6.2
LOL Sam... you really played the antithesis of Echo in this contest

But I enjoyed your reviews regardless

Step and I often found ourselves unintentionally functioning as the "bookends" of the group throughout this contest, mostly because of how different our approaches to scoring are.

I still have a few more reviews to leave, but I should be able to do a bunch tomorrow. :)


My Music - Virtual Instruments - About Me
Orchestral Composer, Sample Library Developer

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Troisnyx
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Response to N G A D M '14: Final Results 2014-11-05 03:19:45 Reply

Congrats folks. Final round turned out to be a surprise for me, and I will admit that I like surprises.

SoundChris
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At 11/5/14 03:19 AM, Troisnyx wrote: Congrats folks. Final round turned out to be a surprise for me, and I will admit that I like surprises.

It wasnt a surprise for me :D I am just proud that i could stil deliver anything under these circumstances ... but it will take a few weeks until i will be able to afford the new hardwareparts, especialy the streaming devices. Raptordrives and thunderbolt ssd´s are just so perverted expensive. I am also thinking of atleast 1 slave mac mini since i cant upgrade my imacs cpu... thank you apple :D Has anyone here experiences in overclocking a late 2012 core i5 27 inch imac? Its said it would be possible to overclock it up to 3.6 GHz but i really dont know how to do that... If so plz tell me how / if it worked! The bad thing just is: I wont be able to make music for up to 1 month :/ But that time will also pass quite quickly and then i can rumble again :D


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eatmeatleet
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Response to N G A D M '14: Final Results 2014-11-05 07:03:12 Reply

gratz


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JoshuaHughes
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Response to N G A D M '14: Final Results 2014-11-05 09:55:31 Reply

Congratulations, guys! The amount of talent everyone displayed in this contest was astounding.


Latest Track: Children of Saturn

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garlagan
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Response to N G A D M '14: Final Results 2014-11-05 10:05:28 Reply

Wow. F0ck
This was indeed one hell of a ride.
@SoundChris Congrats you too. Just with like every round, everybody deserved the win (which is one of the main reasons the NGADM gets so interesting)
Seriously thanks to the judges. The insane amount of effort and time invested is really appreciated.
Kudos to everyone who's involved in the contest! it's awesome to meet you all!


123456789

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AeronMusic
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Response to N G A D M '14: Final Results 2014-11-05 10:42:47 Reply

Well done guys. Congrats! Can't wait for next year!

Tosmatobeef
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Response to N G A D M '14: Final Results 2014-11-05 12:55:40 Reply

Congrats to the winners! I will definatly try to participate again next year

Azhthar
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Response to N G A D M '14: Final Results 2014-11-06 11:33:03 Reply

Yep, also congratulations from me here! Heard some awesome music in this contest!

headphoamz
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Response to N G A D M '14: Final Results 2014-11-06 15:00:13 Reply

An amazing battle. Congrats to garlagan, and big ups to everyone who participated. Beautiful work, everyone!

EvilRaccoon
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Congratulations to the winners. Created some awesome tracks!

Now that the winners have been announces I think i'd like to bring up this system and how imo doesn't really work...
Currently the scoring system allows for when a judge dislikes some to have more power over something someone does like. This is due to the way the averages are calculated through mathematics.

The majority of tracks score a high score because of course..they're great. This ups the average. But as soon as one person doesn't like it and it's not created to their pleasing then a low score will just put them right out the competition, no matter what the other judges think. If you look at the fluctuation of the scores, the final ones tend to hit 9.2, 9.3 etc. To show how one judge can mess it all up if 5 judges vote 10, and one voted 5 that person would lose.

Also you need to look at the average score from a judge. If a judge scores from 7 - 9 all the time then another judge who scores 5-9, well then they have more weight than the other judge. It's sounds daft but it's making one judgement more important than the other. Which is not a justified score.

At 11/5/14 12:34 AM, samulis wrote: Step and I often found ourselves unintentionally functioning as the "bookends" of the group throughout this contest, mostly because of how different our approaches to scoring are.

Also. The assumption is that it would be fair scoring. But it's clearly not. When opinions are making such an impact due to the choice of genre then that's unfair. To be honest, and don't take this wrong Sam, but why does your approach to composition even be considered when scoring someone else's track? Your scoring their track, not how you would have done it or step, or anyone. It seems we're no longer listening and instead these tracks are analytically broken down. I understand why you are all probably doing it, but there's a reasons why this just doesnt work.

I've seen some of the scoring systems and they somewhat make me boil when I see them be applied, not just my own tracks, but more so others. For something like originality or lack of a complex composition could be things the track is not designed to do. Some of the tracks aren't made to be the most original thing. Sometimes they're made to be in a niche and fit within a scope of sound that is familiar and connects to other orgins - yet their punished for it. Sometimes a composition which is simple and repetitive can be the must fulfilling sound because you sink into it. Why does instrument complexity matter? Does a large palette really make a better one? Something I see a lot is when a judge says, not just from this NGADM but from last ones saying it's " Generic Hollywood". Like it's a bad thing! There's a reason why directors go to film scorers who can produce a specific sound that they crave. Yet nope, not good enough for NG's. It seems the genres that some Judges who don't work in did better than those who are close to certain genres, but it shouldn't matter. It shouldn't matter at all.

All this breaking a track up to justify a score is bonkers. It's a piece of original music. Knowing this is why I created Survival of the Hungriest the way that I did. It's wild, the composition is off the wall, it's overfull with with instruments, then transitions to a slower piece. Why? Because it covered a lot of what I knew I was getting judged on, because I knew that you were slotting these tracks into categories. Personally I preferred something like Troisnyx produced for horror, but I knew that it wouldn't get the strong category slots. I did change for my other track though, because I made it for me. My point is these scoring systems you are working to, are helpful, but it seems they are depended on. Some of you might not be, but I'm left wondering how many of you sit back and just listen to it and put your own expertise and creation process out the window, because when it comes to it. Music isn't created for people who create music. It's made for everyone.

So all in all, the judging of those who score lower make more impact, and the personal experience of yourselves should never impact on how a track is judged. That's not being impartial. Personally the whole out of 10 with decimal points is destructive I find because you're really doing it out of 100. If you had more judges, I'm talking 10-20, anonymous submitting, and they had a scoring system of 1-5 stars you would find the scoring system becomes much fairer, because the weight of each judge is less and the fluctuation in which they can score in is tighter too. Then the fact tracks are categorized like an equation due to the judges experience, is just off the wall bonkers. Who cares how they made it and if it's not what you want, or if you think they can do better. That's not what these tracks should be judged on. And this isn't a court case. Contestants aren't guilty or not guilty. So why does what someone else think make an impact on what you think?

As a final thought, I have nothing against any of the judges. I've had to do a lot of official marking creative stuff before and it's hard. Because art, one way or another is subjective. But it's all the more reason why you can't put your own experience and choices into why something isn't good.


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Response to N G A D M '14: Final Results 2014-11-06 17:51:53 Reply

At 11/6/14 04:31 PM, PeterSatera wrote: Now that the winners have been announces I think i'd like to bring up this system and how imo doesn't really work...

Those are certainly good points. I never claimed the system to be perfect because sadly it isn't. Music, like any art form, can't really be given a rating on how "good" it is, and yet this is pretty much what we're trying to do. That's not even factoring in each judge's individual bias, which will always be there. No matter how hard we force ourselves to believe we're being unbiased, all the opinions of the judges are just that - opinions. Would the competition turn out differently if we had a totally different judging team? It certainly would.

Having said that, I personally think the system is effective. First off, none of the judges are new to reviewing music OR making music. Therefore, while our judgement may naturally be opinionated, I think it is at the very least educated. More importantly, we're directly comparing pieces of music together to create a competitive environment. There really isn't a much better way of doing this.

Maybe there are fairer ways, such as what you mentioned with getting 20 judges and having them vote anonymously with a rating from 1 to 5, but those will always have sacrifices. Case in point, managing a team of 20 judges would be an absolute nightmare, not to mention actually FINDING them in the first place - seriously, finding NGADM judges is near impossible since EVERYONE TAKES PART, haha.

We'd also have to be a lot less transparent in how we judge submissions (with the alternative being cluttering up threads with 20 scores per submission). We can implement a voting system for the competitors, perhaps, but that would then sacrifice getting guaranteed reviews on each piece of yours - we can't exactly force people to review their fellow competitors' tracks or even vote for them in the first place. Plus, that could present even worse issues of bias, such as people voting out who they think are the stronger competitors so they won't have as much competition later on.

I think the judging system we have in place now simply provides as many good qualities as it can provide - transparency, feedback, lack of bias, feasibility, and fairness. It doesn't necessarily EXCEL in any of those regards, but it still works and has created what, in my opinion, has been another successful and fun competition. Hell, ideally we wouldn't be scoring and comparing pieces of music like they're maths tests, but then there won't be any competition in the first place.

Ultimately, rest assured that the judging process isn't just a bunch of numbers. We, as judges, talk things over on Skype, ask for each others' opinions, and even take down personal notes (or in some cases write full reviews) before giving a finalised score. The scores are also relative, not absolute. Reason I have decimal points in my score isn't because I have some mysterious gift to rate exactly how high a piece of music deserves to score, but just to help me gauge more specifically how much I enjoyed one track over another.

Anyway, if you've got any more suggestions on how the system can be improved, throw them our way!


Review Request Club | CHECK THIS OUT | Formerly Supersteph54 | I'm an Audio Moderator. PM me for Audio Portal help.

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Response to N G A D M '14: Final Results 2014-11-06 17:59:12 Reply

I wish I had time to write a detailed reply. It would boil down to me saying that you're overthinking it Peter, it's a big deal, sure, but it's also a friendly competition and a chance to test yourself, get a lot of feedback and chat with a lot of folks in the same position as yourself.


Rocker, Composer and World Ambassador for Foxes! I'm on Youtube. Veteran REAPER user. Click below for the song that got me 2nd place. :)

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Response to N G A D M '14: Final Results 2014-11-06 18:09:46 Reply

At 11/6/14 05:51 PM, Step wrote:
Anyway, if you've got any more suggestions on how the system can be improved, throw them our way!

Ok!

More importantly, we're directly comparing pieces of music together to create a competitive environment. There really isn't a much better way of doing this.

There is. I talked with you about that point already 2013. The greatest difficulty is that in many cases it is not really possible to compare pieces of very different genres. I mean - is a very good metal piece better than a very good classical? It would be FAR easier and also more demanding if at the beginn of each round there would be determined a genre. I think in a contest you just have to accept any challenge. That would really lift the whole competition to a far extremer level. Maybe you will say now that many people only do one genre. Maybe. But that doesnt change my opinion that this is on the first hand the best way to check who is the most extreme overall musician / composer and on the other hand people are forced to go out of their zones which increases the amount of creativity and fun a lot.

Maybe there are fairer ways, such as what you mentioned with getting 20 judges and having them vote anonymously

I can understand the idea, but that would cause far more problems. Many people would vote for friends or their favourites without taking any responsibility - its anonymous.

What could be done is to add more titles to win:
- fan favourite like in the art inspired audio contest
- most versatile artist
- whatever. there are many possibilities

Thats just what came into my mind. Dont know if anything of it would be practicable but maybe its worth to consider :D


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All valid points, but I just want to say that no matter how you slice it, every contest will have its flaws. But whatever, it’s all fun. It’s never meant to be something we place our identities in. Congrats to those that ended up placing at the end. Well-deserved, and I wouldn’t want to detract from this thread in accidently making the winners feel like it means nothing by talking about the flaws of the contest. It's tough

EvilRaccoon
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Response to N G A D M '14: Final Results 2014-11-06 19:52:29 Reply

At 11/6/14 07:18 PM, Phonometrologist wrote: I wouldn’t want to detract from this thread in accidently making the winners feel like it means nothing by talking about the flaws of the contest. It's tough

That's clearly not the point. Which is why I waited until it was complete. So we're all judged equally and under the same rules. So winners have won fairly.

At 11/6/14 05:51 PM, Step wrote: Those are certainly good points. I never claimed the system to be perfect because sadly it isn't.
Anyway, if you've got any more suggestions on how the system can be improved, throw them our way!

I know, and I expected many people to backlash at my response like I was trying to make a good thing crap. But it's clearly not my intention. I'm trying to make a good thing better. You did mention that they are put against each other. I wasn't aware that they were put head to head like that. I thought they were more voted on separately and then you got your score. I dunno if it's better one way or another. As Chris says, how do you even judge a metal track to a jazz one or a cinematic to electronic. Purely on a taste perspective alone that's going to throw a lot of spanners.

At 11/6/14 05:59 PM, MetalRenard wrote: I wish I had time to write a detailed reply. It would boil down to me saying that you're overthinking it Peter, it's a big deal, sure, but it's also a friendly competition and a chance to test yourself, get a lot of feedback and chat with a lot of folks in the same position as yourself.

I know. You're probably right.

At 11/6/14 06:09 PM, SoundChris wrote: I can understand the idea, but that would cause far more problems. Many people would vote for friends or their favourites without taking any responsibility - its anonymous.

Sorry. I didn't write that well i meant the opposite. The track creator is anonymous. Not the judge. Of course when it comes to 1v1's its probably easy to tell, and well. It also would mean NG's couldnt be used now that I think about it..so that kinda defeats the purpose..

I'm trying to think of ways to encourage fairer judging, so you can vote high, and another can vote low, but they both have the same weight depending on your judging. The fact it's hard to get judges doesn't make it any easier. But I dunno..maybe as MetalRenard said. Maybe I over-thought it. Maybe it's problems that can't be fixed within a subjective medium.


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Response to N G A D M '14: Final Results 2014-11-06 20:39:58 Reply

At 11/6/14 04:31 PM, PeterSatera wrote: Now that the winners have been announces I think i'd like to bring up this system and how imo doesn't really work...

Hi Peter. You brought up some nice points, and although I am not mentioned specifically, I feel some of the points were more directed in my direction contextually, so I'd like to briefly give some explanations and try to open further dialogue on what you and everyone else think would work better in the future.

When opinions are making such an impact due to the choice of genre then that's unfair. To be honest, and don't take this wrong Sam, but why does your approach to composition even be considered when scoring someone else's track? Your scoring their track, not how you would have done it or step, or anyone. It seems we're no longer listening and instead these tracks are analytically broken down. I understand why you are all probably doing it, but there's a reasons why this just doesnt work.
So all in all, the judging of those who score lower make more impact, and the personal experience of yourselves should never impact on how a track is judged. That's not being impartial.

There is continued mention of "personal experience" and how much it impacts the judgement. Judgement is defined as "the act or process of forming an opinion or making a decision after careful thought : the act of judging something or someone". It is essential and logical to apply personal experience to judging. If I didn't use my personal experience of how music works, my judgement would be "sounds good, no idea... 10/10?". Personal taste, on the other hand, has no place here.

Listening IS analytically breaking down. Even someone who knows nothing about music is still feeling a beat, feeling tension and release, and experiencing emotions.

Then the fact tracks are categorized like an equation due to the judges experience, is just off the wall bonkers. Who cares how they made it and if it's not what you want, or if you think they can do better. That's not what these tracks should be judged on. And this isn't a court case. Contestants aren't guilty or not guilty. So why does what someone else think make an impact on what you think?

:Some of you might not be, but I'm left wondering how many of you sit back and just listen to it and put your own expertise and creation process out the window, because when it comes to it. Music isn't created for people who create music. It's made for everyone.

I'd tend to disagree. This contest is a contest for musicians, by musicians. If this were a "popular music contest", yes, I would completely agree, but in this contest, all contestants are FULLY aware that they are being judged by their peers, fellow musicians. It's not just my choice to be critical and examine more than just the surface layer, it's our entire job as judges. As any creative living on their work is well aware, audience is an extremely important consideration.

For something like originality or lack of a complex composition could be things the track is not designed to do. Some of the tracks aren't made to be the most original thing. Sometimes they're made to be in a niche and fit within a scope of sound that is familiar and connects to other orgins - yet their punished for it. Sometimes a composition which is simple and repetitive can be the must fulfilling sound because you sink into it. Why does instrument complexity matter? Does a large palette really make a better one?

I think there is a misconception that "originality" is some kind of crazy artsy fartsy thing. It's not. Originality in the context of music is taking someone elses' ideas, recombining them, and adding your own touches (in fact, that's how ALL tonal music works, there are virtually no exclusions). Depending on how much effort one puts into recombining different elements, they will create a more original sound. Originality is not just about making your own sound. It's about how you say things in your music. In cinematic music, above all, it is MOST important that something is said or emotions are expressed, and being able to play around with existing ideas to get there (like using leitmotifs) is very valuable.

I took care to take considerations of the ideals of each genre as to what the term "complexity" or "originality" implied under them. "Complex" composition in a jazz piece might be using all sorts of crazy modal theory, while in cinematic, it might be using modulations or contrapuntal, evolving, interesting ostinatos between two families.

On simplicity; of course a track can be simple, but simple doesn't mean one can get away with copy and paste galore. I'd rather (and often did) allot more composition points to a simple track that showed a great deal of detail and craft versus a complex-sounding track that shows little attention to detail/effort.

On palette, contrast, craft, and diversity; as these are, admittedly, show pieces made to flex your compositional and production muscles in front of the judges, those pieces that were impressive in craft, expression, or detail of course received higher scores. Even as a purely emotional listener, this same principle applies- diverse, contrasting music is interesting to listen to. Music with modulations, expression, counterpoint, syncopations, ostinati, odd time signatures, yada yada ya is interesting for a listener, no matter how little they know because those are taking elements from the common language and adding your own touches, or at the very least, playing around with them.

Something I see a lot is when a judge says, not just from this NGADM but from last ones saying it's " Generic Hollywood". Like it's a bad thing! There's a reason why directors go to film scorers who can produce a specific sound that they crave. Yet nope, not good enough for NG's. It seems the genres that some Judges who don't work in did better than those who are close to certain genres, but it shouldn't matter. It shouldn't matter at all.

The genre is completely relevant in the context of the individual piece, however... unless you've come up with a way to apply the exact same criteria to a dubstep track as a classical one. There are certain expectations of genres and styles, certain "ideals", and "rules". When I was in doubt about how to approach a piece in an unfamiliar style, I consulted a producer/composer who was more familiar with those expectations and incorporated their take with mine.

All this breaking a track up to justify a score is bonkers. It's a piece of original music.

Yes, it is. I am slightly surprised people were so critical of my scores that I actually had to do that. However, all the feedback on breaking down the score until now has been completely positive, so I have kept it up.

My point is these scoring systems you are working to, are helpful, but it seems they are depended on.

Well I certainly don't want people to think that way. The criteria I chose for my scoring system are universal to all music, and, in my opinion, very straightforward. To me it seems obvious what the criteria represent for a genre and I feel that anyone who puts in their all, barring major issues or malfunctions, will not have much trouble meeting all the criteria in full, and that

Personally the whole out of 10 with decimal points is destructive I find because you're really doing it out of 100.

I see no problem with breaking down a score, it's more accurate. More accuracy can only help you.

If you had more judges, I'm talking 10-20, anonymous submitting, and they had a scoring system of 1-5 stars you would find the scoring system becomes much fairer, because the weight of each judge is less and the fluctuation in which they can score in is tighter too.

I like this idea, except seeing how much work it is for Step and Erik now with just five or so, I really don't know if it would be fair. Instead, I'd recommend using an open voting system where everyone can vote, such as that used with the NGMT or the NGWSC.


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Response to N G A D M '14: Final Results 2014-11-06 20:49:53 Reply

People complaining about scoring... And I didn't even judge this year.


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Response to N G A D M '14: Final Results 2014-11-06 20:58:09 Reply

At 11/6/14 08:49 PM, Back-From-Purgatory wrote: People complaining about scoring... And I didn't even judge this year.

Nor did Skye

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Response to N G A D M '14: Final Results 2014-11-06 21:00:35 Reply

At 11/6/14 08:39 PM, samulis wrote:
At 11/6/14 04:31 PM, PeterSatera wrote: Now that the winners have been announces I think i'd like to bring up this system and how imo doesn't really work...
Hi Peter. You brought up some nice points, and although I am not mentioned specifically, I feel some of the points were more directed in my direction contextually, so I'd like to briefly give some explanations and try to open further dialogue on what you and everyone else think would work better in the future.

And now for the "what might work better in the future" part...

I touched lightly on the way of running a contest developed by @skyewint for his NGMT contest, in which contestants submit pieces anonymously and they are placed up for judgement by the masses. There are a few considerations to this and observations I made on implementing it in the Worst Song Competition.

First, here's a basic breakdown on the process:
1. Contestants upload their works to a file sharing site and, without showing anyone but the contest organizers, send the link to them via PM, skype, etc. privately.
2. The organizers prepare a page with all the songs listed with numbers or titles, but not names.
3. Contestants submit their votes by post in the forum or a PM to the organizers. For a small number of a submissions, it may be decided that contestants vote on their top three and each vote is weighted (so the first choice gets 3 points, second gets 2, third gets 1).
4. Organizers tally up the votes and present the findings.

A variation of this allows public voting, wherein anyone can submit their votes, regardless of if they were contestants.

I ran a contest using this system including public voting and I established the following:
1. Instead of voting via PM, I set up a voting "ballot" system. This required a name input, which verified who was voting and might allow public voting without the concern of duplicate votes. It also gave a handy system for reading off the votes.
2. Individual votes for the top 1 or 2 choices will leave quite a few ties, but if you do the top 3 or have over two dozen voting, that should be mitigated. Regardless, ties are still troublesome.
3.

There are a few concerns for this used for the NGADM:
1. Public voting leaves the concern of duplicate voting, and voting via PM means a LOT of work for the organizers.
2. The system can be problematic when people have idiomatic approaches (i.e. certain sound or style of writing), and people can identify them. This is, of course, a concern to take seriously with this approach as there are a lot of people here on NG who have a very strong personal tone.
3. If used in a serious contest like this, it would leave the issue of reviews... I think the long-standing approach of reviewing works is an important thing in the NGADM.
4. This system gives the losers virtually nothing... they for the most part get like 1 or 2 points (while the winner gets 50), which is MUCH harsher than getting "7/10" or something at least quantifiable as a status. If I were mister 1 point, I would be considerably more upset about my loss than if I saw "ah, I put up a good fight, but everyone was just so good this round".
4. Above all else, this system relies almost exclusively on personal tastes, which is exactly what we would want to avoid. Although, yes, when you combine a lot of personal opinions you tend to find a moderate opinion, it means there would likely be rampant genre favoritism and other issues.

One could mitigate some of these issues by having a sort of "senate" of voters, selected by the organizers, a bit closer to the approach you suggested.

Perhaps one of us should open up a new thread to discuss all of this? Or discuss it here?


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Response to N G A D M '14: Final Results 2014-11-06 21:03:24 Reply

At 11/6/14 08:58 PM, Phonometrologist wrote:
At 11/6/14 08:49 PM, Back-From-Purgatory wrote: People complaining about scoring... And I didn't even judge this year.
Nor did Skye

rofl

I used Skye's judging system, more or less. ;)


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