This is the thread on Michael Brown

[Feoric]

Michael Brown was an 18 year old black (!!!!) teenager from Ferguson, Missouri, not far from St. Louis. He was shot 10 times and killed by a police officer. Several witnesses report that he was unarmed and had his hands in the air as he was being shot.

Here's what the police are saying:

- Brown was walking with a friend Dorian Johnson
- Brown was accosted by the police walking in the street
- Brown or the friend he was with allegedly assaulted the police officer, which culminated into a scuffle inside a police car
- Inside the car, Brown allegedly grabbed the officer's gun, which initiated the first shot fired, which didn't hit anyone
- Brown fled the scene and was shot 35 feet away from the car 10 times

Here's Johnson's version of events:

"About 20 minutes before the shooting, Johnson said he saw Brown walking down the street and decided to catch up with him. The two walked and talked. That’s when Johnson says they saw the police car rolling up to them.

The officer demanded that the two “get the f—k on the sidewalk,” Johnson says. “His exact words were get the f—k on the sidewalk.”

After telling the officer that they were almost at their destination, Johnson’s house, the two continued walking. But as they did, Johnson says the officer slammed his brakes and threw his truck in reverse, nearly hitting them.

Now, in line with the officer’s driver’s side door, they could see the officer’s face. They heard him say something to the effect of, “what’d you say?” At the same time, Johnson says the officer attempted to thrust his door open but the door slammed into Brown and bounced closed. Johnson says the officer, with his left hand, grabbed Brown by the neck.

I could see the muscles in his forearm,” Johnson said. “Mike was trying to get away from being choked.”

“They’re not wrestling so much as his arm went from his throat to now clenched on his shirt,” Johnson explained of the scene between Brown and the officer. “It’s like tug of war. He’s trying to pull him in. He’s pulling away, that’s when I heard, ‘I’m gonna shoot you.’”

At that moment, Johnson says he fixed his gaze on the officer to see if he was pulling a stun gun or a real gun. That’s when he saw the muzzle of the officer’s gun.

“I seen the barrel of the gun pointed at my friend,” he said. “He had it pointed at him and said ‘I’ll shoot,’ one more time.”

A second later Johnson said he heard the first shot go off.

“I seen the fire come out of the barrell,” he said. “I could see so vividly what was going on because I was so close.”

Johnson says he was within arm’s reach of both Brown and the officer. He looked over at Brown and saw blood pooling through his shirt on the right side of the body.

“The whole time [the officer] was holding my friend until the gun went off,” Johnson noted.

Brown and Johnson took off running together. There were three cars lined up along the side of the street. Johnson says he ducked behind the first car, whose two passengers were screaming. Crouching down a bit, he watched Brown run past.

“Keep running, bro!,” he said Brown yelled. Then Brown yelled it a second time. Those would be the last words Johnson’s friend, “Big Mike,” would ever say to him.

Brown made it past the third car. Then, “blam!” the officer took his second shot, striking Brown in the back. At that point, Johnson says Brown stopped, turned with his hands up and said “I don’t have a gun, stop shooting!”

By that point, Johnson says the officer and Brown were face-to-face. The officer then fired several more shots. Johnson described watching Brown go from standing with his hands up to crumbling to the ground and curling into a fetal position.

“After seeing my friend get gunned down, my body just ran,” he said. He ran to his apartment nearby. Out of breath, shocked and afraid, Johnson says he went into the bathroom and vomited. Then he checked to make sure that he hadn’t also been shot."

And the aftermath:

- The neighborhood flipped their shit which led to some people looting, eventually burning a QuikTrip to the ground
- Riot police were dispatched and fired a shit ton of tear gas at protesters
- The police implemented a no fly zone over the crime scene
- To prevent the media from covering the scene, the police used tear gas and implemented a vehicle cordon
- The paramilitary police force has apparently been pointing their guns at unarmed protesters. quite frequently
- The city has so far refused to name the officer in question
- The police officer is also on paid leave
- Oh, and, in case you didn't notice, this is another racially charged case, which makes this thread extremely easy to troll (let's see who'll be the first poster to refer to Ferguson residents as 'animals')

I naturally have a hard time giving the police the benefit of the doubt but let's just run with it: Brown grabbed the gun and shot before fleeing -- is the appropriate response to shoot the kid 10 times? I remember 5-10 or so years ago it was very popular on the internet to see stories about cops using their tasers under ridiculous unjustified situations, and it happened quite frequently (it still does) -- whatever happened to that? If you're gonna be trigger happy at least let it be with a taser.

Anyway, this whole thing could have (most likely) been avoided if they had simply arrested the officer who shot Brown and released his name to the public, but it seems that the PD is going to fight for him since the window for that move making any sense and deescalating the situation has long passed.

[Camarohusky]

I don't trust anyone here.

The police are naturally going to stand behind the blue wall. The witnesses are naturally going to say whatever is needed to fit their anger. Sad part is that we'll never know what actually happened, and some large group will end up feeling like they were on the wrong side of whatever outcome happens.

The worst part about this is the neighborhood's reaction. Ah yes, you think the police attacked on of your peers, so the best response is to destroy your neighborhood and assault the police? Could you be more stupid? If you think this is born out of racism, WHY ACT EXACTLY LIKE THE RACISTS THINK YOU WILL?!?!?! This is one thing the black community seems to never understand. Responding to supposed racism by acting like barbaric violent monsters is only playing into the hands of the racists out there and puts the average luke warm people against them.

[orangebomb]

Naturally, the police are going to defend their own guys, though I would imagine that they will have a hard time trying to defend shooting someone 10 times, even when the other person is armed and belligerent. A lot of people have a distrust with the police already, and it's kind of hard not to see why.

However, the black community seems to have a problem every time that there is a major injustice that is committed against them, (not all mind you) they respond by getting up at arms and essentially rioting, defeating any sympathy that they may have beforehand, and perpetuates the same stereotypes that they get accused of time after time, it's a never ending cycle. Frankly, this is not much different than the riots in Cincinnati in '01 over a similar situation, (memory is a little fuzzy on what happened, but I do know that the policeman was ruled not guilty) and soon after that, a lot of entertainment icons basically protested against the city because of that.

Other than general blind rage, I do not understand why would some parts of the black community would act this way thinking that anything would change every time that one of their own is shot down or beaten by someone of a different race. Looting and pillaging your own community doesn't help your cause, and really only perpetuates the same stereotypes against black people. MLK Jr. and even Malcolm X would be spinning in his grave every time that something like this happens.

[Feoric]

It seems like a bulk of the media attention was on the short lived and limited rioting (from people outside of Ferguson proper nontheless) rather than the actual case itself, which is entirely irrelevant to the fact that at the end of the day an unarmed teen was shot dead by a police officer. I agree it's unfortunate that the rioting happened and one of the consequences of such is not just the damage to the community but also the ruination of symathetic public reaction. Then again I doubt this story would have gotten as much media exposure had the rioting not happened in the first place -- young (black) teens are shot dead all the time in this country.

[Lumber-Jax12]

Let's wait for more information to be presented. Push this to trial, if the cops guilty than he'll face necessary punishment, if not than he's free to walk.

I have a hard time believing this lone officer appeared out of the blue and demanded their surrender in such a manner. I don't care if you're the biggest racist in hicksville, USA. Shit like that does not happen, in broad day light to less.

If this is true, then by all means jail the son of a bitch. But until then lets see a trial before we start jumping the gun.

Regardless of what your beliefs are you are innocent until proven guilty.

[Feoric]

At 8/13/14 12:26 PM, Lumber-Jax12 wrote: I have a hard time believing this lone officer appeared out of the blue and demanded their surrender in such a manner. I don't care if you're the biggest racist in hicksville, USA. Shit like that does not happen, in broad day light to less.

First, blatant police discrimination and cases of brutality are not rare. At all. It does happen, all the time. Second, the officer didn't immediately demand surrender, he demanded they walk on the sidewalk in an allegedly combative manner.

[Lumber-Jax12]

At 8/13/14 01:08 PM, Feoric wrote:

At 8/13/14 12:26 PM, Lumber-Jax12 wrote: I have a hard time believing this lone officer appeared out of the blue and demanded their surrender in such a manner. I don't care if you're the biggest racist in hicksville, USA. Shit like that does not happen, in broad day light to less.

First, blatant police discrimination and cases of brutality are not rare. At all. It does happen, all the time. Second, the officer didn't immediately demand surrender, he demanded they walk on the sidewalk in an allegedly combative manner.

Obviously police discrimination is a thing, that I'm not contesting.

But an officer driving up to these kids and saying "get the fuck down" for no reason then shooting the kid is hard to believe. Considering all the shit thats erupted now from ferguson, it's only more a harder sell.

Again if hes proven guilty than by all means let him fry, any person who would kill randomly like that in a fit of rage is an animal.

I just would prefer to believe the men and women who are called to protect and serve are above blatant and arbitrary murder, and if that was the case its unfortunate but a rare event.

Now a person resisting arrest or making a threatening gesture, which would cause some to assume he was going for a gun or such some weapon in common.

Now again, wait for the trial, if one never comes to light then thats the crime. But until then lets see.

[leanlifter1]

As always there's two sides to the story and the truth is always somewhere in the middle. There's at leased 3 witnesses to this event so I would hope the Law courts would straighten things out. Sadly I think that the kids involved are from low income it would seem so the hopes of attaining proper counsel are slim to none for them. My prediction is that the Judge sides with the PD and the Cop gets a slap on the wrist and is back on the streets policing in no time.

[Feoric]

Well, shit went down tonight, unfortunately. Before we get to that another witness has emerged:

"“As I was coming around, I heard the tires squeaking on the truck, and as I get closer, I see them tussling through the window. The kid was pulling off and the cop was pulling in,” Mitchell said.

[...]

“It just didn’t look right for them to be arm wrestling,” Mitchell said. “The first gun shot came from the window, so I just started getting out of the way.”
According to Mitchell, Brown, Jr, began to run away after the first shot was fired.

“After the shot, the kid just breaks away. The cop follows him, kept shooting, the kid’s body jerked as if he was hit. After his body jerked he turns around, puts his hands up, and the cop continues to walk up on him and continues to shoot until he goes all the way down,” Mitchell said."

This seems to corroborate with Johnson's version of that day's events. Which ultimately means there's a pretty good chance the police straight up executed this kid in the middle of a street in broad daylight.

Now here's the recap:

[1] Depicts what appear to be police Hummers equipped with LRADs (I can't really tell since it's too dark) surrounded by a squadron of swat forces clear out an area of peaceful protesters by bombarding them with smoke bombs and tear gas.
[2] Depicts essentially the same thing. I can't tell if this is from the same area from a different angle or a different location entirely. I believe this is a livestream rip and it doesn't have any audio, but the footage is loud and clear.
[3] Depicts swat forces declaring the protest "no longer peaceful" and fires up the aforementioned LRAD (it's that god awful high pitch beeping siren you hear 10 seconds in). Lots more tear gas here as well.
[4] Pretty harrowing footage of more smoke bombs and tear gas being launched at protesters. My gosh, the mouths on those things! I'm glad the St. Louis police department is cleaning up the streets!
[5] This is just sad. The police wound up shooting a girl in the head.
[5] Police order the media out of a local McDonalds and then arrest them for...hmm...I feel 'resisting arrest' or 'disturbing the peace' is kinda played out at this point. Hopefully the St. Louis police department has a team of writers coming up with some fresh, catchy fictitious charges.

Here's some more on how the media were treated tonight:

"Wesley Lowery, a reporter for The Washington Post who has been reporting on the unrest in Ferguson, Mo., was detained Wednesday evening by police in Ferguson.

He and other reporters were working in a McDonald’s in Ferguson when about half a dozen police officers came into the restaurant, Lowery said. Some officers were in regular uniforms, while others were dressed in riot gear and carrying assault weapons.

“It was tense,” Lowery said via telephone from the police station on Wednesday night. “I’ve been afraid several times while reporting on the ground here in Ferguson.”

Patrons working in the McDonald’s, which reporters had been using as a staging area near demonstrations, were ordered to leave, Lowery said. When the journalists said they were working members of the media, the police told them that was fine, but they couldn’t guarantee their safety.

Police then left and returned a short time later, Lowery said, this time demanding that the reporters leave. Lowery began filming a video on his phone while also using his other hand to pack up his things. An officer objected, Lowery said, but did not press the issue.

Lowery said that at this point, he was slammed against a soda machine and plastic cuffs were placed on his wrists. He was trying to make it clear he was not resisting arrest, but it did not appear the officers believed him.

“That is probably the single point at which I’ve been more afraid than at any point.” Lowery said after. “More afraid than the tear gas and rubber bullets, more afraid during the riot police. I know of too many instances where someone who was not resisting arrest was assaulted or killed.”

Another journalist, Ryan Reilly of the Huffington Post, was also in the McDonald’s, arguing with a police officer, and was also handcuffed."

That was certainly a very smart move on their part for arresting a Washington Post employee. I wonder if the owner of that publication, Jeff Bezos, has any top-shelf legal resources in like, oh, say, every jurisdiction in the entire country?

Things were especially hairy if you worked for al-Jazeera.

MSNBC's Christopher Hayes tweeted that "all satellite trucks have been ordered out, so no way to get live images out for cable nets." All of the action was mostly recorder from protesters taking video and livestreaming.

A local citizen reporterwas also arrested for "getting out of his car" (lol).

There's at least one incidence of police brutality reported on:

"Martez Little, 24, of Ferguson, a witness to the officer involved shooting near Ferguson just after midnight Wednesday morning, said police also beat and threatened him.

[...]

“Then, one police grabbed me by both of my legs and just got to dragging me while I was in handcuffs. That’s why my face got like that because I couldn’t put no pressure down to keep my face from hitting the ground… I was afraid for my life, I thought I wasn’t going to make it …because it was too many guns in my face,” he said."

Fortunately they charged him with outstanding traffic warrants -- another criminal taken care of. Phew! Maybe the police are launching a massive campaign against people with outstanding traffic tickets.

So, yeah, seriously though, I don't want to hear any more of this truth-in-the-middle bullshit, and especially the whole "well their job is to serve and protect so obviously the police can't do anything wrong." Fuck that. If you look at even half the links I provided it's immediately obvious that the police are in the wrong with their irrational aggressiveness. Every single reported injury and all property damage over the past two nights have been caused entirely by the police, not the protesters. They've been intentionally instigating and escalating the conflict with their absurd heavy-handed presence and disproportionate response, and have been caught on tape verbally egging on the crowd hoping for a fight. Unfortunately absolutely nothing about this surprises me -- every single NDAA passed for over the last decade has included funding for surplus transfers to local police departments. The military industrial complex has been seeping into our local PDs for a long time and your Rep is funding it. I don't like the term 'police state' due to the association it has with libertarian circles but you tell me, what else should you call it?

[migrant]

yeah if you're buying that "they're doing their jobs" bullshit then i want you to watch this shit right here, do a bit of fucking research because this is a fucking horrible event in our history and there is no middle ground, there is only the abusers and the victims. it's pissing me off how you assholes don't realize how bad this is or even care.

as disturbing as this shit may be, do not turn a blind eye, no matter how much they try to cover it from you.

[Lumber-Jax12]

I still am waiting for a trial until making a certain judgement, but I'd be lying if I said after reviewing the case it appears the officer did indeed act out. The fact that the police haven't shown any evidence at all to support their defense just seems more suspicious than anything.

[Feoric]

At 8/14/14 11:33 AM, TNT wrote: Does the military have to get involved like with the LA Riots of 1992?

Why would they? The police have already proven themselves to be militarized enough as it is. They have actual MRAP trucks for Christ's sake. In case you guys wanted to see what it's like to be hit with a rubber bullet, here it is (fairly graphic image alert). I really don't think they need any more firepower.

Here's the rundown on the news we have so far from today. Missouri Gov. Nixon announced St. Louis County police will be "taken out of situation." Meanwhile, the Ferguson mayor has an interesting theoryon why the police are aggressively combating peaceful protesters. Hmm... Speaking of interesting comments, check out what Steve King had to say about the situation. I would have to agree. How could there be racial profiling if everyone is from the same...er...'continental origin'? When you look at it like that, there cannot possibly be racial profiling, just routine police behavior.

By the way, if any of you are looking for a good allocation of newsworthy events coming out of Ferguson, Vox has a good aggregate.

In my last post I mentioned how the NDAA directly arms local police departments, making them more heavily equipped than our troops were in Baghdad. I did some research and looked into the actual law itself to see who is responsible and how the administration can change the way it's enforced. Here's what I found:

This article from TPM points to what's known as the 1033 program:

"The Ferguson and St. Louis County police departments have both received equipment from the U.S. military through what's known as the 1033 program, a federal program that the American Civil Liberties Union says has been a key catalyst to the broader escalation of law enforcement force in the United States.

The 1033 program, which was approved by Congress in 1992 to help law enforcement fight the war on drugs and was expanded in 1997, allows police departments to request and receive refurbished military equipment from the U.S. Defense Department free of charge. That equipment can range from night vision googles to military-grade firearms and armored vehicles. The ACLU estimated in June 2014 that 500 MRAP vehicles, built to withstand roadside bombs, are now in the hands of American law enforcement."

Vox has a good follow up:

"Confrontations between protestors and heavily armed police over the past several days in Ferguson, Missouri have left many observers wondering how suburban police departments come to have so much military-style equipment in the first place. The answer, roughly, is that in the 1990s, when federal, state and local governments were scrambling to win the "war on drugs" and fight high crime rates, the federal government started helping local police officers get military equipment.

That's still going on — and with the winding down of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars under the Obama administration, the Department of Defense finds itself with a lot of excess military equipment on its hands. Put these two trends together, and you get a lot of local police departments and sheriff's offices asking for, and getting, armored personnel carriers, grenade launchers, and M-16s.

The New York Times article reports that the Pentagon has sent local police departments "tens of thousands of machine guns; nearly 200,000 ammunition magazines; thousands of pieces of camouflage and night-vision equipment; and hundreds of silencers, armored cars and aircraft" over the past several years. But that's actually just scratching the surface of the military equipment that local police departments can get.

Kara Dansky, an ACLU scholar who studies police militarization, says that there are three different federal programs that help local cops get military gear. The one covered by the Times is a Department of Defense program that directly transfers equipment to local law enforcement agencies. But there are two federal grant programs — one run through the Department of Justice, and one run through the Department of Homeland Security — that give local cops money to purchase their own equipment. And much of the equipment they buy is also military-style."

Not only do we have the 1033 program which transfers milsurp to PDs, but also 2 federal programs which gives PDs money to buy milsurp wholesale. The feds just cant get the stuff off the shelves fast enough.

This is the website for the branch of the DoD that runs the 1033 program. The law is conveniently linked on the front page, so I had a look at what it says. Basically the entire program is under the discretion of the Secretary of Defense. Obama most likely isn't constitutionally allowed to transfer funds out of the program for other uses since the funding comes directly from the NDAA, but he absolutely could and should put pressure on the agency to use broader discretion in disbursements.

Understand that even if Obama made it his mission to combat the issue of police militarization, it's extremely difficult for the POTUS to get bureaucrats to act against the primary objective of their respective agencies. Nevertheless there's absolutely no excuse to not frame the narrative that what happened in Ferguson is a national disgrace and something needs to be done about a serious systemic problem stemming from federal programs. A national dialogue is already being had, and even Ted fucking Cruz and Rand Paul have come out and expressed their disgust at the situation. There is enough political capital here for Obama to take a hard line. The President should immediately order Hagel to review the 1033 program and determine that no military hardware short of light arms and ammo is appropriate for fulfilling the intended purpose of the program. The law also states that Secretary of Defense should consult with the Attorney General, so Holder should also put his foot down here as well.

Judging by the uninspiring milquetoast language Obama used during his press conference earlier today, I'm not expecting much, but we'll see. When fundamental civil rights are grossly violated like they were in Ferguson, it's the responsibility of the federal government to come in and clean things up. This much Obama said was happening. At the very least the feds are going to examine the situation in conjunction with the Missouri state government, which invariably means "you're being audited to hell" and possibly massive civil suits against the county and city governments. To me that's appropriate but not enough. We need to fix the problem, not treat symptoms.

[Feoric]

At 8/14/14 04:10 PM, TNT wrote: Of course the police are militarized, but what I was saying that does, or should the military need to take over to calm the situation? It is pretty fucking clear that the police over there is doing a horrible job. Perhaps the military won't be as trigger happy as Ferguson Police (wishful thinking).

No, a military presence would absolutely not calm the situation. Considering the fact that tensions are as high as they are now because of an already militarized police presence, that would be seen as adding more fuel to the fire. Besides, the military does an absolute shit job at performing a police role -- they're not trained for that. They're trained to be combatants, and you act how you're trained to be. There'd probably be dead protesters if the military was there.

At any rate state troopers are there now and the FBI is supposed to be overseeing police operations, so the situation is deescalating.

[leanlifter1]

The Mike Brown Shooting What You're Not Being Told
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_icVWKO4_o

[orangebomb]

At 8/14/14 08:34 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: The Mike Brown Shooting What You're Not Being Told
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_icVWKO4_o

You need to take that with a serious grain of salt. Checking through the video history of "StormCloudsGathering", they are pretty much nothing more than a conspiracy seekers who are using the stereotypical "wool over our eyes" and "wake up people" schtick without out and out saying it. If nothing else, they are only muddling the waters further, and not really helping what really went on.

Not to mention that they are pretty lousy when it comes to fact-checking and easily take anything that is said way out of context.

[leanlifter1]

At 8/14/14 08:52 PM, orangebomb wrote:

At 8/14/14 08:34 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: The Mike Brown Shooting What You're Not Being Told
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_icVWKO4_o

You need to take that with a serious grain of salt. Checking through the video history of "StormCloudsGathering", they are pretty much nothing more than a conspiracy seekers who are using the stereotypical "wool over our eyes" and "wake up people" schtick without out and out saying it. If nothing else, they are only muddling the waters further, and not really helping what really went on.

I take what Politicians and main stream media tell you with a grain of salt. SCG has more clout than does the fail Obama admin and Bush combined LOl. There was no theory here just the facts from one side at leased.

[Feoric]

A lot of information came out today. Let's start from the top.

The Ferguson County PD released dispatch records and survailance video showing what is clearly Mike Brown roughing up a clerk for unknown reasons and walking out the store with ~50 bucks worth of cigarillos. The fact that he put his hands on the clerk makes this a 'strongarmed robbery.' A copy of the 10=page police can be found here. Note that the report has no mention of a weapon, and no weapon was found at the scene of Brown's body. They did however find evidence of the robbery (presumably the Swishers he stole). The PD also released the name of the officer who killed Brown: Darren Wilson.

Now, here's the interesting part: the Ferguson Chief of Police gave a press conference at around 2:00 EST and reiterated repeatedly that Wilson had no prior knowledge that Brown was a robbery suspect. It was a jaywalking stop. It's interesting to see the closeted bigots crawl out of the woodwork and say "see! told you so!" and feel vindicated for stereotyping Brown as a thug, but at the end of the day 1) the officer stopping Brown wasn't doing so because he knew he was a suspect, and 2) remember why this particular case got so much attention in the first place: the location of Brown's wounds is unquestionable evidence that he posed no threat to Wilson because he was shot in the back. Even if we're going to be extremely generous and paint Brown in the most negative light possible based on the evidence we have now, him being shot to death is still clearly unjustified. The new pieces of information we have today certainly paint Brown in a different (negative) light, but that does not detract from why this case is so controversial. Even if he was a suspect and stopped for such, that does not give the police carte blanche to just shoot him for no reason. The rules that govern normal use of force still apply.

Oh, and by the way, there's no way the jury is going to hear that he was involved in a strongarm robbery when this goes to trial. It's completely irrelevant to the shooting.

[SadisticMonkey]

At 8/13/14 01:54 AM, Feoric wrote: Anyway, this whole thing could have (most likely) been avoided if they had simply arrested the officer who shot Brown and released his name to the public

Right, so then they could have the killed the police officer or burnt down his house, hurt his family, made death threats against him etc. and then their would be peace, right?

There's three separate investigations into the case, so its not as if the police officer is going to walk away from this.

The rioters just made things worse for themselves.

[SadisticMonkey]

At 8/15/14 05:16 PM, Feoric wrote: Even if he was a suspect and stopped for such, that does not give the police carte blanche to just shoot him for no reason. The rules that govern normal use of force still apply.

Nobody of any authority is saying that the rules don't apply. Which is precisely why there are investigations into the incident.

[Feoric]

At 8/15/14 07:07 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote: Right, so then they could have the killed the police officer or burnt down his house, hurt his family, made death threats against him etc. and then their would be peace, right?

lol

Is that happening to him now? What's the difference between releasing his name on Sunday, Monday or Tuesday and today? Can you give me a rundown on the calculus that determines when's a good time to release the guy's name who created the situation in the first place?

The rioters just made things worse for themselves.

They absolutely did, and the people who partook in the riots should be arrested and tried for such. However, it's completely insane to say that the inappropiate police response had zero effect on the strength and growth of the angry and dissatisfied feelings the community felt which is a catalyst for things like riots to occur in the first place. The police exacerbated the situation and made it worse.

Nobody of any authority is saying that the rules don't apply. Which is precisely why there are investigations into the incident.

Good. But it's worth mentioning that when the Feds are obliged to intervene because you're fucking incompetent you shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps nobody is saying the rules don't apply, but they sure as hell acted like it.

[SadisticMonkey]

At 8/15/14 08:14 PM, Feoric wrote: Is that happening to him now?

The officer has been moved out the city, but if you think that these rioters would have left him in peace if knew where he was then you need your head checked.

What's the difference between releasing his name on Sunday, Monday or Tuesday and today? Can you give me a rundown on the calculus that determines when's a good time to release the guy's name who created the situation in the first place?

I'm not saying it was/wasn't a good time to release the name, I'm simply contesting the claim that the rioting could have been prevented by releasing the name early.

Perhaps nobody is saying the rules don't apply, but they sure as hell acted like it.

How? There's investigations into the incident.

Nobody is certain what happened yet, least of all the people rioting and looting.

[SapphireLight]

An honest to god police coup going on in Ferguson. Shit's unreal.

[Feoric]

At 8/16/14 08:00 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote: The officer has been moved out the city, but if you think that these rioters would have left him in peace if knew where he was then you need your head checked.

How would he have been in danger if he's in police custody?

I'm not saying it was/wasn't a good time to release the name, I'm simply contesting the claim that the rioting could have been prevented by releasing the name early.

A good way to calm down a situation where people are angrily protesting in the streets is to see if you can meet some of their demands. The arrest of Wilson would have stalled tensions from rising as high as they did (and are), because there would have been no way for anyone to interpret that as the PD protecting a man who killed a kid instead of bringing him to justice.

How?

Nobody is certain what happened yet

Sure they do. An unarmed teen was shot dead in the street. Remember: he was shot in the back 35 feet away from the police cruiser. That's not up for debate.

[Camarohusky]

At 8/16/14 11:58 PM, Feoric wrote: A good way to calm down a situation where people are angrily protesting in the streets is to see if you can meet some of their demands. The arrest of Wilson would have stalled tensions from rising as high as they did (and are), because there would have been no way for anyone to interpret that as the PD protecting a man who killed a kid instead of bringing him to justice.

That sets a terrible precedent. If they do this, they set the precedent that while police officers are legally allowed to use force on duty, they will be arrested should they do so.

Not only that, if they do eventually find out he was culpable, they could blow it by ringing him in early (Casey Anthony style). The quick arrest starts the speedy trial clock ticking and a good defense attorney would get that case to court as quick as possible to ensure that as little eidence has been collected by trial.

In both cases, they should wait to arrest until they have enough evidence to go forward.

A violent mob response is no reason to buck over 200 years of jurisprudence and move too quickly. That can (and will) back fire. I am actually quite surprised how easily and willfully you are kotowing to a mindless mob.

[SadisticMonkey]

At 8/16/14 11:58 PM, Feoric wrote: Sure they do. An unarmed teen was shot dead in the street. Remember: he was shot in the back 35 feet away from the police cruiser. That's not up for debate.

LMAO, wrong.

"Late Sunday, The New York Times reported that a private autopsy requested by Brown's family found that he was shot at least six times, including four times in the right arm and twice in the head. All of the shots, the Times reported, were fired from Brown's front — a finding that could contradict a witness statement indicating that Brown was hit as he ran away from police."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/17/justice-department-autopsy-brown-ferguson/14196559/

Oh and the police officer was injured during the incident...so unless you want to want to claim that he did the same thing as Zimmerman and injured himself on purpose, its clear that it wasn't just crazy cop shooting at teens for no reason. The police might have started the fight, to be sure, but we don't know. And neither do the people rioting.

[wildfire4461]

Well even with the curfew they're still rioting, so guess what?
http://news.yahoo.com/missouri-governor-sends-national-guard-ferguson-074910472.html
If that fails... Next stop: Martial law.

Stupid cocksuckers are destroying their community and putting themselves and anyone trying to protest peacefully in a bad light, and they don't even care.

[Camarohusky]

At 8/18/14 02:10 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote: "...were fired from Brown's front — a finding that could contradict a witness statement indicating that Brown was hit as he ran away from police."

And this is why I find the witness' claims to be dubious. Too much emotion involved and seeing as the community has erupted, I find it hard to believe that the witnesses accounts do not have an agenda. Same goes for the police accounts. This has become a mini Gaza.

[Feoric]

At 8/17/14 01:09 AM, Camarohusky wrote: That sets a terrible precedent. If they do this, they set the precedent that while police officers are legally allowed to use force on duty, they will be arrested should they do so.

Not only that, if they do eventually find out he was culpable, they could blow it by ringing him in early (Casey Anthony style). The quick arrest starts the speedy trial clock ticking and a good defense attorney would get that case to court as quick as possible to ensure that as little eidence has been collected by trial.

In both cases, they should wait to arrest until they have enough evidence to go forward.

Personally I would love to see the figures on the number of people serving murder convictions based solely on eye witness testimony. I'm gonna go with "a shit load." The police department hasn't disputed that Brown was shot and died 35 feet away from the police car, nor the fact that the police officer was the one that shot him. I don't really know what else can be interpreted from all of this other than "an unarmed man was shot and killed no less than 35 feet away from a police car." No new pieces of information from this past week has disputed any of this, not even the autopsy results.

Also, invoking the Casey Anthony case was really dumb, because there is photographic proof all over social media depicting numerous things, such as photos taken no more than minute or two after the shooting, as well as showing Brown laying dead in the middle of the street no less than 20-30 feet from the police car. It didn't take 6 months to find the body, and he didn't go missing for a month beforehand. We know a lot of key pieces of information right off the bat, and nobody is denying Wislon ultimately killed Brown.

A violent mob response is no reason to buck over 200 years of jurisprudence and move too quickly. That can (and will) back fire. I am actually quite surprised how easily and willfully you are kotowing to a mindless mob.

Kowtowing to a mindless mob? Of course not. I think I've made it pretty clear we shouldn't be kowtowing to the police.

At 8/18/14 02:10 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/17/justice-department-autopsy-brown-ferguson/14196559/

This is correct. He was not shot in the back. The source of that claim comes from here. I (and a lot of other people) had taken that to mean he was struck at least twice in the back, but that's been proven to be false by the autopsy. The most likely scenario I can think of that fits both eyewitness accounts and the autopsy results is that Wilson fired in Brown's general direction as he was running away but missed, Brown then abruptly turned around with his hands up to surrender (I don't think it's hard to imagine that Brown was scared shit and jumped a bunch, giving the impression he was recoiling from being hit, hence those tweets), then the cop unloaded an additional 6 shots at least into the front of Brown while he had his hands up. We'll find out what the FBI concludes at the end of their investigation. There's still a lot of key information we don't know, like the total number of bullets fired -- I've heard everything from 7 to the entire magazine.

As far as the autopsy report itself, it looks like he was shot on the underside of his arms, which seems more likely to occur if he was facing Wilson with his arms up to surrender. None of the shots are logically consistent with the claim that Brown hulked out and charged Wilson; they are, however, consistent with someone with their hands up having bullets sprayed at his body.

At 8/18/14 09:53 AM, Korriken wrote: who wants to guess how this is gonna end?

Wilson's found not guilty by an unsympathetic jury while closeted bigots are smugly vindicated and the police continue to dicriminate against black communites while they get more military equipment. Basically nothing changes.

PS nice usage of scarequotes. Tell me more about Race Hustlers™ lmao (don't actually do this).

[Camarohusky]

At 8/18/14 10:04 AM, Feoric wrote: Personally I would love to see the figures on the number of people serving murder convictions based solely on eye witness testimony. I'm gonna go with "a shit load."

However, in 99.9999% of those cases, the community, to which the witnesses belong, did not explode in violence. The witnesses that have come forward ALL have been sympathetic to the protests before they did their witness statement. This is what we call bias in the legal system, and ALL witnesses on both sides here have it in spades. That means their accounts just don't hold much water.

The police department hasn't disputed that Brown was shot and died 35 feet away from the police car, nor the fact that the police officer was the one that shot him. I don't really know what else can be interpreted from all of this other than "an unarmed man was shot and killed no less than 35 feet away from a police car." No new pieces of information from this past week has disputed any of this, not even the autopsy results.

That proves nothing legally.

Also, invoking the Casey Anthony case was really dumb, because there is photographic proof all over social media depicting numerous things, such as photos taken no more than minute or two after the shooting, as well as showing Brown laying dead in the middle of the street no less than 20-30 feet from the police car.

We all knew FROM THE BEGINNING THAT Brown was killed by police officer. Again, you have proved NOTHING. You have essentially proved facts that were at best mildly disputed. You still have a huge empty space as to what Brown was doing prior to being shot, and the autopsy report have already proven several witness' account of this to be 100% wrong.

Casey Anthony is a PERFECT case to mtch it to. They had a shit ton of evidence too, but NOT ENOUGH. The prosecutors bent over to public outrage and EVERYONE LOST. I am quite surprised you cannot see this. There is not enough evidence to disprove the officer's claim of self defense and/or shooting in the line of duty. Until such evidence exists, it is far too early. I mean seriously. You usually are a calm voice of reason here, but now you have jumped out of an airplane with no parachute because people were getting mad behind you.

Kowtowing to a mindless mob? Of course not. I think I've made it pretty clear we shouldn't be kowtowing to the police.

Wanting prosecution when there is at best 5% evidence of anything culpable just because the town has decided to shit all over itslf in mindless barbaric anger is the TEXTBOOK definition of kowtowing to the mob. When it comes to legal issues, it's far better to let the brains lead the charge instead of the hearts.

And legally, there is nothing to go on right now. I think you need to step back and stop muddying the waters because you're mad at an incident that you, and the entire town, knows VERY LITTLE about.

[migrant]

have any of you guys been checking twitter and the like for evidence? there are tons of photos scattered around of whats going on, and yet you guys are sitting here with your thumbs up your asses and pretending to know.

we live in an information era, but yall assholes are still expecting info to be served to you; go look for this shit, check a few twitter accounts, thats where most of the pictures and information are coming from.

this twitter has been a good info source for me, french has been documenting this shit since it started.