At 11/19/13 05:31 PM, MasterDan1742 wrote: Is this a joke? I seen far more offensive content in NG than the sandy hook shooting.... what about the 9/11 tragedy should I play butthurt and cry so you remove all that stuff to? I mean come on what like in total, almost 3,000 people died in the attacks, including the 227 civilians and 19 hijackers aboard the four planes. yet what 22 people die in a school shooting and people NOW complain about newgrounds content? Yea this has to be a joke for sure.

Now we can be a new armorgames.com once you start taking off other peoples content this is no longer a privately owned website, more like for the public more so because they pressured him to take the content off.

At 11/19/13 05:14 PM, TomtheTool wrote: I see no problem with censorship. People don't deserve to be offended. If that means that some people have to be shut to maintain society, then I'm fine with that.

Unfortunately, the ability to offend people is a side effect of the freedom of speech. People don't deserve to be offended any more than they deserve to be censored.

I'm sorry, but I think this is the wrong call, Tom, unless you're going to retroactively apply the same logic to older, also offensive games.

At 11/19/13 05:23 PM, Evgenii wrote: LONGEST NEWSTHREAD SINCE EVER!!!!!!!!

At least since Feb. 7th, 2012.

At 11/19/13 05:41 PM, Cyberdevil wrote:

At 11/19/13 05:23 PM, Evgenii wrote: LONGEST NEWSTHREAD SINCE EVER!!!!!!!!

At least since Feb. 7th, 2012.

That thread was FAR more offensive than this one!

At 11/19/13 04:55 PM, knexfan100 wrote: "freedom of speed"

please elaborate. im really confused on what that is...

I meant to say "speech", but I couldn't edit the post...

At 11/19/13 05:41 PM, Cyberdevil wrote:

At 11/19/13 05:23 PM, Evgenii wrote: LONGEST NEWSTHREAD SINCE EVER!!!!!!!!

At least since Feb. 7th, 2012.

You're right... WE CAN DO THIS!!! Come one guys, keep arguing inarticulately! A meaningless milestone is before us!

• 

  All your spam r blong 2 ¥

  by bigbadron

  BBS NG's Biggest Topic

  Movie

  79,971 Views

  (Everyone)

¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥!

Ok, so, people are still raging about this, and I can understand this. However, here's a question for you. Let's say that full Censorship is pulled on Newgrounds. Then what will become of the "adult" joke website that I grew to know over time? Sure, I was introduced to it by my mother when I was about 10 years old. That was back when games were far worse then what you see get uploaded today. Shooting Pokemon, watching ToonSlayer, parodies of Harry Potter, Truck Kegan (Sorry for the bad grammar there, but it's vague in my memory), and several other flashes... Some would say that the flashes back then were a mere joke, but some of them had a lot of underlying messages. And knowing full well that I may get in trouble for even linking this, what do you think Tom would do about this flash? It's been around for ages and was never considered for removal! A lot of this stuff is comic mischief and it gets past the filters almost every time along with people drawing pubes with the picture of Kermit's head and using Microsoft Sam as the lead voice actor then spewing out some of the most racist context I've ever seen. What about the flashes that single out Autistic people and make fun of them and their actions based on an artists bias. Those people use Newgrounds as their "stomping" area to throw out the most vulgar stuff either to just troll or seriously make a point. What I'm getting at is that a lot of people will be thrown under the bus here, and they're not going to be very happy at all with this decision Tom.

====Notice====
Just letting you know that I'm not responsible for what you will see in this video. It is not intended for children to watch due to the sexual nature of the video. If you are under the age of 18 I highly discourage clicking on this link. If you happen to do so, then you are at fault if you get caught. (after all, you are the one who clicked the link!)

• Unsuitable Submission

  This submission contains age-rated material and requires an account to view.

I did not see the game and I do not know anything of the author, but it sounds as if it was in bad taste. You can make the same statement having a game where you're pulling off a shooting at Nowhereville, Alabraskington and the point is still clear. You can use squirrels or old people or the cast of Rugrats and still get the feeling of gunning down the innocent and defenseless without trying to use the notoriety of an actual event. The artist was essentially exploiting the victims without anyone's consent to garner attention for his/her own cause which is absolutely deplorable. I'm all for artistic freedom when it comes to expressing one's own original ideas and such, but exploiting an actual event that many people are still mourning over is disgusting.

I feel like censorship is something that belongs more on family sites. The internet is a danger zone and if you don't tread carefully, its your fault for running into filth. Newgrounds is all about "Everything by everyone." Youtube has its boundaries, other family sites have their boundaries. But as long as its original content created by an individual, it should be allowed on Newgrounds. Cause something that's funny to one person can be horrific to another, and its nobody's fault but the person being offended. I know there's shitty stuff on here and there will always be shitty content. But the magical thing is that stuff doesn't rate well and only the good stuff comes to front page. Nobody but the creator is responsible for the content, and it should be up to the creator to take it down or leave it up. Unless, of course, it breaks actual laws.

I think this is a good idea. NG does have a lot of offensive material I've seen.

Maybe Newgrounds will get some positive media attention for a change, it was a good business decision.

You know Tom, I'm mexican so I live on a country where both the most gorgeous and the most dreadful things happen any day of the week, therefore, as any other mexican on my socio-economic and educational status is used to laguh at the unlaughable all the time, I ppersonally think that laghing at the worse calamities is not wrong as long as one does not actively makes them worse; even mexican victims are able to laugh at the shittiest situations because that's how our culture goes (or is damaged so far) but on the bight side of the matter it just eventually fades.

Time flushes the bad deeds (half the speed it does with good ones, but it does), having the ability to give a laugh at the catastrophy its something that helps some of us, the more prone to worry about the world to the point of chilling to the bone on fear for the course it seems to be taken, it helps us to cope with it a little, knowing that anything can be reduced to a joke its knowing that anything can be reduced to a solution too.

I agree with the idea that somethings will be too disturbing for the victims, but they must choose not to see them, for others that's the only way to know exactly what happened since mainstream media carries just mainstream (gov-approved) contents and for this I quote Eve's father from "V for Vendetta" (I know, that's the cheapest shot to make a revolutionary point) "Artist lie to tell the truth..."

NG is a community with reaally dark corners, but that is what pulls it apart form the other social networks; is a place where I expect to find the darkest side of the humanity without recurring to the actual morbid content; it's a place where I expect to face things that I might not like, but that will make learn something (or not) a place wher delirium is part of the puzzle humanity is.

I cannot condemn or conceal what you did, but beware of such decitions, because an avalanch starts with a single droplet; yet, YOU ARE ONE OF THE "GODS" at NG, and if it is great is because as it is right now is due to the great decition making and trouble facing you and the rest of the team had pulled out; think of NG aoutside a US-citizen view, this portal is, and hope you think like me, NO LONGER USian, but worldian; and as such, your decitions are judged by a global community on a scale that even being just an "entretainment site" has an impact, slight to say the less, on the world.

I really appreciate reading such insight of yours, that reminds us, that behind everythig, being a simple draw, or this crazy-megalomaniacal site, theres a person, a fellow human being despite the nations or whatsoever, we are but one species.

Regards.

I agree to censor shovelware works. I do not agree with the censorship of anything further than that.

This website is more than anything a community of artists and animators. You're putting roadblocks up on potential dialogue that our animation, art, games, whatever can inspire. Something is offensive? GOOD! Discuss it. talk about how it makes you feel. Respond to those feelings. Have others respond to it. Get new ideas and new ways to express those ideas. What sort of new connections and synapses could have sparked from this discussion? We'll never know now. No challenge, no growth, no progress.

I've always respected the loose guidelines this site has had as far as accepted content goes. I can be creative and work around censorship but I want to have the option to be offensive and provoke something. Maybe challenge people or maybe I'll discover something about myself through some controversial work.

With YouTube and other media sites out there offering similar entertainment, I find myself still coming to this site specifically as a way to filter through all the nonsense and find some real gems I may have otherwise passed over. Things that appeal to me in various ways. I would have never found one of my favorite animators, RomeoJr if it wasn't for this site. Would "A Norse in the 9th Ward" hold up to the censorship standards? How about my 9/11 flash? I know I've probably offended my fair share of individuals and maybe even some family members of victims. Should it be removed too?

I do not know the feeling of losing a child or family member in a cataclysmic incident and I hope I never will. I can't imagine the horror or pain they feel. However, censorship is not the answer. Censorship will not fill the void that the death of a loved one leaves. It won't end racism, it won't end homophobia, it won't end violence. It will end growth on an individual level and possibly within a community. Don't advocate the limitation of progress for this community.

That being said, you know the needs of this website better than I do, Tom. I'm just offering my perspective. All I ask is for you to consider it.

its good that you followed your heart

Wow. One flash get's pulled, and people think it's the end. Reminds me of the shitstorms in the brony community when Derpy was censored and Twilight became an alicorn.
Tom and Wade have stated the reason several times, yet the retards in this forum completely ignore it (good points are always ignored in threads here).
So I tell you what. Tom can put it back up, and get his name, the Newgrounds name, and people who post content to the site get dragged through the shit by the media firestorm over it (which is exactly what would happen, especially if Fox news got ahold of it) . Then when the last advertiser pulls their ads from the site, it'll be up to you idiots who are raging over it to keep the site going with your money. See how long you can afford it.

At 11/19/13 06:58 PM, Prinzy2 wrote: Maybe Newgrounds will get some positive media attention for a change, it was a good business decision.

While not mentioned by name, the actions of the Newgrounds community has gotten positive press.

"Sirtom93, an active user on the Newgrounds BBS posted a thread on Newgrounds, on March 17, 2009,[41] describing how he would burn down his school with gasoline and was caught and arrested after Administrators and users collected his personal information and forwarded it to the local police. The newspaper in Sirtom's area did not mention Newgrounds by name"

If you want positive press, I would propose an idea to organize some sort of charity event for users to take part of or something similar. Censorship will not be the reason this site gets any sort of positive media attention.

Did the right thing tom.

At 11/18/13 12:12 PM, ZJ wrote: I've talked about this in more private places, but I'll repeat some of it here. I think you've opened up floodgates, Tom. I understand your concerns about this game, but I feel like you're allowing for various groups of people to want various forms of content removed in the future and they'll be more justified in their request since this was taken down.

And let me put this bluntly: Who will bring more views to this website? PiGPEN or those angry parents? Can modern NG really afford to piss off its content creators?

I dunno. It's a rough spot. I feel for you Tom.

I have to disagree with you on one BIG fact:

the people that would be pissed off because of this exclusion are not worth considering because they themselves are inconsiderate, and more importantly, harming people by posting similar content, as far as content creators are concerned. there is nothing to stop these people from making their own website to post their garbage.

consider this: there are videos that make fun of and degrade religious figures, gratuitously sexual games and videos that include rape as acceptable, and even (dont know if its still on, was a while i had the misfortune to see it), necrophiliac flash videos on this site. sure, you get some people that report it as offensive, but art is expression, and expression by its very nature can be offensive.

there is one thing to keep in mind however, that although these are offensive to many, they can easily be ignored, as they can be forgotten, and avoided.

YOU CANNOT PUT A GAME LIKE THAT UP BECAUSE IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO IGNORE, AND IT WILL GUARANTEE PEOPLE BEING HURT.

hell, alot of those people in the incident probably visit this site regularly.

the final nail in the coffin, however, is that taking such a thing, and flippantly turning it into a form of entertainment, is NOT ART. child pornography isn't art, nor are taliban decapitation videos, videos about murdering or torturing small animals, or children, self mutilation, or consentual execution/dismemberment of individuals. bear with me, as fortunately none of that stuff is on this site that i know of, and most likely wouldn't be in flash ever.

now personally, i would be more conservative. in my perfect world, movies like saw, or the human centipede, the nick burg decapitation video, or anything to the caliber would be criminally chargeable.

BUT

I reserve and respect the right of basic liberties and freedom of expression, to the extent that certain rules are kept:

1.) personal liberty is not limited by production of a work of art.
2.) people are not caused undue pain and suffering by a work of art.
with the condition that...
3.) all offense of the work is avoidable, and only available to those who specifically wish to view it.

in this case, the mere fact that it was submitted on this site and accepted is a cause of loss of liberty, cause of pain, and unavoidable offense to the victims of this terrible and unfortunate event. suppose a man posted a game about raping a dead grandmother in her funeral casket? suppose you had complete control over ever action... still acceptable right? disgusting and deplorable, but it is a given liberty for freedom of expression. now suppose someone went in the obituaries, found a REAL person, took REAL pictures, and posted it. Actually, lets just say he reproduced it well enough that you could identify that person, if you knew what you were looking for.

Would it be acceptable to have a game about sexually defiling a recently deceased individual, with a real life connotation attatched?

the answer should be no, and people who produce that should be criminally liable for a number of offenses, if taken to court. to those who disagree.... I pity you if you see that as acceptable.

As for this being a caveat for things that are simply offensive, it is the responsibility of the offended to try and avoid their offense, and live their life without actively seeking hurt and offense. do people need to play games where peoples brains are being bashed out of their skulls, watch videos where people are having sex, or where religious figures are cruely mocked? no.

the line should be drawn at things like this, and I applaud Mr.Fulp for his prudent and considerate action in regard to his incident. and to the soccer moms that are against guns, and the PETA people against burger flipping media, or the religiously minded (i speak as one of those) who are offended by seing their god being blasphemed, i say...

guns don't kill people, your children holding a gun in a state of psychotic disarray will kill people, and you do more harm watching jerry springer and oprah than a kid shooting beer bottles on a flash game ever will.

to the PETA people, people will always eat animal meat unless one day we find a way to completely eliminate the need for it without a change in taste or price or nutritional content, which then i recommend becoming a chemist and nutritionist, getting doctorates in both, and inventing the ultimate super food and selling said creation to the EU for global distribution. tofu burgers arent cutting it.

and finally... If your God doesn't strike the person down with plague or pestilence, or some unspeakable doom as a direct result of their infidelities, then perhaps he/she/it does not need a champion, and you should consider championing a different cause, like keeping garbage like the stuff above out of existance.

That is my two cents on this issue.

At 11/19/13 07:18 PM, wildfire4461 wrote: Wow. One flash get's pulled, and people think it's the end. Reminds me of the shitstorms in the brony community when Derpy was censored and Twilight became an alicorn.
Tom and Wade have stated the reason several times, yet the retards in this forum completely ignore it (good points are always ignored in threads here).
So I tell you what. Tom can put it back up, and get his name, the Newgrounds name, and people who post content to the site get dragged through the shit by the media firestorm over it (which is exactly what would happen, especially if Fox news got ahold of it) . Then when the last advertiser pulls their ads from the site, it'll be up to you idiots who are raging over it to keep the site going with your money. See how long you can afford it.

It's already up to the "idiots" raging over this to keep this site afloat with the rest of the competition out there. Maybe instead of latching onto a simple solution such as censorship, we can put our heads together and come up with something else. It should be something that won't compromise the "everything by everyone" model this site was built on while still maintaining a positive image. I mentioned in a previous post hosting some sort of charity on this site that calls on its users to either contribute money or art/animation. Maybe there's other ideas that would be even better but just stopping at censoring the content is a lazy solution. It might be more difficult to think up something but it will also be more rewarding.

At 11/19/13 06:45 AM, liljim wrote:

At 11/18/13 04:59 PM, derelix wrote: So youtube is capable of running with zero ad revenue but newgrounds isn't? How do you expect youtube to make money if all of it's advertisers pull their funding of the site?

Correct. Youtube is owned by Google. A multi-billion dollar company. And unless something has changed recently, it runs at a loss, despite all of the ads you may run into on there.

Youtube is running at a loss? Who told you that, google?

Yeah, they are totally losing money off of the largest video sharing site on the internet. They are not making a profit off of the advertisements and the flood of people that watch things that they don't even have to produce.

You're so gullible, you probably think the people that post the videos are making 100 percent of that ad revenue that they bring to the site.

Poor google, losing so much money just so we can have our precious youtube, they are saints, as you say.

Wow, sounds like this situation really conflicted you, and rightly so. Let me add my voice to the chorus of those saying the community stands behind your choice!

All of you people trying to defend this choice have done nothing but accuse others of "raging" called them "idiots" and "retards" (and of course "trolls") so I think it's become clear that you guys have no legitimate argument to defend this choice.

It's his site. If he wants to pick and choose who or what we are allowed to make a flash animation or game about, good for him. The problem is that it kills what newgrounds was all about.

Newgrounds, you can play a rape simulator porn game but god help you if you want to beat up a feminist or play a sandy hook game.

At 11/19/13 07:18 PM, Boss wrote: its good that you followed your heart

His "heart" probably doesn't care about how much he would lose in ad revenue.
His "heart" probably doesn't care if a bunch of people that have never heard of him think ill of him because of a news story possibly mentioning him.

I think the word you are looking for is "wallet" and "Ego"

At 11/19/13 06:58 PM, Prinzy2 wrote: Maybe Newgrounds will get some positive media attention for a change, it was a good business decision.

And I ask you, why does it matter if it gets positive media attention?

You people are kind of sad. You care so much what others (who don't know what a flash portal is) think about a site you happen to use.

At 11/18/13 11:58 AM, TomFulp wrote: Over the years, a number of highly offensive games and movies have been published on Newgrounds and despite the hatemail and being dropped by just about every ad company in existence, we held firm on a policy of anti-censorship. Today, however, I pulled a reversal on that policy and maybe it was a huge mistake or maybe it was the right thing to do, I'm sure there will be a variety of opinions on the matter.

It's not like we don't already slip on the censorship policy. We've removed racist and homophobic stuff (moreso than YouTube I would say) and we remove shovelware games built off common templates with zero passion.

This game, however, had a certain level of artfulness and craftsmanship to it. There was a visual and technical quality that revealed a serious level of effort and passion. It also had a political message I personally agree with; a statement on gun control and the problem of gun violence in the US. It attempted to demonstrate how things can play out differently with changes in our gun laws. It made you feel and it made you think.

It did so, however, in the context of the Sandy Hook massacre, recreating the event and putting you in the role of the shooter.

Newgrounds has faced harsh criticism in the past for standing firm on not censoring distasteful material, namely games about school shootings. All I can say is that this game took things to a new level in terms of the age of the victims and the realism of the terror they faced on that day.

I was personally contacted by Sandy Hook parents and they expressed their understanding of what the game was attempting to communicate, but also expressed the sadness and horror it made them feel, and their desire to have it removed. Today I'm choosing respect for the Sandy Hook parents over respect for NG's censorship policies.

Either decision on this matter puts a knot in my stomach. I'm of course interested in hearing thoughts on the matter, especially from artists on the site.

If I were to make that descision, I would've made a poll, because I'm on both sides. The Sandy Hook parents must feel miserable and horrified from the game seeing their children die, but then again I agree with the message the game sends and the game is pretty artistic and PiGPEN put a lot of effort in it. It's also the Internet, which means that there will be horrible stuff on it. However, I wanted to saythat it was your choice, not mine, and I completely respect your choice.

A game gets removed and suddenly people get outragged and flock back to the site they abandoned and appoint themselves as experts of newgrounds. lol.

Dear Tom, Wade and all the staff.

i respect your choice on removing the submission and i'm fully aware i can't cast any form of moral judgement on this case as i have not seen the entry. i do not consider myself an artist either. However you called out for a response.

as i said before i can't cast any judgement on this particular matter so i won't. the call out you madegave me an inspiriration though. What if on such controversial matters you let the public decide. maybe not all of the public of course, because that would ignore the matter but perhaps you could temporarely suspend the entry from the portal untill the matter is resolved by a council of "wise men" so to speak; who could give you an advice on wether or not to remove the entry.

by "wise men" i mean of course weathered users of the site wether they are male or female, have lots of exp points or none, americans,europeans, africans or asians doesn't really matter. they would however have, as a whole, an advisory role in the matter; some sort of UN of NG

this would entail that though the website is yours and so the final decision is yours you get anextra advisory board on delicate matters like this.

Best regards,

Nimmer / iwalker

P.S.

Tom. Let's look at this from another perspective:

You are the King. The King is put into position for one role: To make the hard decisions no one else can.

You have and will face trials and tribulations that will test your position. The citizens both look up to and for you. They see you as the instigator. Some will want you to come to their side, and will do so by temptation or violence. Others will use the decisions you make as an excuse to tear you down. But in the end, you are the one who holds the ultimatums in his hands. You alone have the power.

The problem with kings is that eventually, they forget to control themselves instead of the power and become ruled BY it. It's not having the power that makes you King, it is the people. But the people are VERY fickle.

One minute, they will praise you for you choice, but then hate you when it stops being their way. That hate turns into riots, and eventually the kingdom falls.

But.

What if the King were to look at the middle solution? To see what they want, and what they need? to not fully satisfy their desires, but to still give them what they deserve?

The long run is what comes up once the action is made. They may not see it, but you do. That is why you are there. On your throne.

They may not like it, but in time, they see your point. Because it is for their benefit too. Because you are the adult above children.

The decision you made now has a reason, and if they can't see it, then they will soon. You are not a tyrant. You are someone who sees all the options, an picks the lesser of two evils. Even if one will cause a war.

So remember Tom. There will always be trials, just as you have been tested before. But if you shake from you position, then it's all over. You can't be the King.

You must never doubt your actions because you have seen and listened to all options and opinions with a mind or neutrality. You have taken a harder, or higher road. Whatever happens, never feel like you did wrong.

Because you did your job.

At 11/19/13 08:09 PM, NeNe wrote: A game gets removed and suddenly people get outraged and flock back to the site they abandoned and appoint themselves as experts of newgrounds. lol.

So much this.

At 11/19/13 05:14 PM, TomtheTool wrote: I see no problem with censorship. People don't deserve to be offended. If that means that some people have to be shut to maintain society, then I'm fine with that. Too much information is bad for society and some ideas are completely harmful and have no benefit. Freedom of speech is an idea, like democracy. It sounds nice, but a pure version of it doesn't work in practice. I applaud Tom for censoring and look forward to more censorship in the future.

I could counter your first point by simple saying I am offended by it, everything is going to be offensive to someone, so what you are saying is that we can't talk, Fahrenheit 451 covers this issue. Also, too much information is bad for society? That is a pretty outrageous claim, can you back it up? Can you show me these ideas that are harmful and have no benefit? even a 'wrong' idea has value, take yours for example, it might not be very practical, and have horrible consequences if you were to think it through, but such hyperbolic scenariohelp point out better solutions to the problem. oh wait "TomtheTool", this is probably a fake account made to say that, and oversimplify the scenario, that is significantly better, but is also a massive overstatement of the issue, their is some merit to the other points of view as well, and part of what we should be disusing is the positives, and negatives of both sides. Nothing is black and white.