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At 11/19/13 12:20 AM, Cross666 wrote: Double fuck ah well here we go
Just watch this
I think this Newgrounds user sums it up best.. and quicker. ;x
For what its worth I hope that kid sees my video and actually watches it up to the point where I call him out, artist to artist.
At 11/19/13 12:44 AM, Cross666 wrote: For what its worth I hope that kid sees my video and actually watches it up to the point where I call him out, artist to artist.
Don't you have to earn the title of artist...?
I was here before there wa a Portal, back in the Assassin html days. The good old days, before the good old days. Newgrounds was provocative, obscene, violent, uncensored, and most of all RELEVANT. Remember when Newgrounds was famous? Remember when Newgrounds attracted people from all walks of life to see new independent flash works and adult themed flash? Back when viewership was huge, when it was one of the most famous sites on the entire web? It was legendary, and it catered to the general public, and had a very broad appeal to a broad base.
Flash forward several years, and this place went pro. Suddenly the lulz started to slow down. It went from fun wild west to boring over time. Instead of harassing the worst parts fo the viewership into leaving and taking their cancer with them, the admins and mods' began to coddle the disruptive sects and people, as to not inflame them and lose precious hits and ad income. this degraded Newgrounds in the long run, short term ad cash for long term degradation, in the long run it cost viewers and destroyed the community.
When kids and autistic adults began to force this place into a one purpose video game and spirte bonanza, they thought it was good money to support and feed this overenthusiastic kids, instead of keeping them in line. With thousands of sock puppets and ferverent effort, they downvoted good flash and upvoted garbage to the point the real artists felt cheated and left. Short term cash for long term degradation of Newgrounds.
They suppressed the adult content and pushed the young content. They got rid of the content that got real hits in order to appeal to what advertisers wanted, but what Newgrounds didn't, at its core and heart, really want, or what really made the site what it is. The site went from 13 year olds acting like adults, making the site actually mature, to a fanbase of 30 year olds acting like 13 year old kids. This degraded the fanbase further.
After all this, Newgrounds went into a steep decline, one that continues to this very day. Decisions are made to appeal to the wrong crowds, all for the sake of appeasing advertisers and genre fanatics. The advertisers continue to try to change Newgrounds into something it is not nor it will ever be. In the short term it makes money, keeps these advertisers happy. But in the long run, every single one of these decisions has further chased away the true fans of Newgrounds, further alienated those who made it famous, gave it the legacy the site barely survives on today. They appease the advertisers and the site dies a little, they compromise one thing to keep the cash flowing today, but what leads people away tomorrow. They sacrifice a piece of Newground's heart fora little money today, and a little bit closer to death in the future. Every decisions has destroyed the relevancy, the purpose, the drive, the appeal, the very workings that made this place worthy of its fame and reputation, that once drove it to great heights.
By finally turning on the nature of free posting, first int he forums and flash reviews many years ago, they betrayed the very core of what Newgrounds truly is. Can't offend the viewers, or thin skinned artists who need a good kick in the ass and some good advice, they say, not good for business they say. The whiney and weak took over, the people who had fun here left years ago, and all that remains are the hardcore bitter veterans, the handfuls of new recruits, and a lot of the "this palce exists to feed my ego" types that ruined this place left. The first round of cencorship, internally, was the biggest cause of the long decline of this once great site.
Today, we are watching as the inevitable happens. Eventually the advertisers were going to win their march towards killing off this site by censorship. It was only a matter of time, an slow and steady march. But it is no surprise that a site that was BUILT on offensive material, based on free posting of works despite its content, is now going to become what it not only stood against, but what built it.
Newgrounds is like 4chan, and other offensive sites that were extremely popular. They get hits, more than any clean site can get, or even hope to come close to. The problem is, you can't capitalize on it. You can't get advertisers to make money on it, you can't find a way to turn it legitimate without destroying what gave it views int he first place. You cannot take a site that is popular and thriving do to NSFW content then keep that success and viewership turning it SFW. Newgrounds was never going to be both relevant/successful/sustainable and long term profitable at the same time. Keep it oldschool NG, wild west, you'll never make a nickel on it, but it would thrive forever. Turn it into a kids sandbox, family friendly for the big advertisers and their dreams of what it will be, it will implode and die. It is like a delicate flower, it can be admired from a distance, but if you harvest it, you will crush it.
I'll tell you Tom, I've been here for the long haul, 13 years of this place. But it has been dying for a long time, and I feel I'm not part of a great website anymore, but simply watching an old friend die. Its went from entertaining and independent, to a giant daycare center for man children, a collection of shovelware, and the place for semi pro artists to showcase their work instead of an open Portal and forum for the average amateaur to make something funny. Its been dying for a very long time, and I fear this could be the death rattle of this site. Once open censorship becomes open, when the administrators openly embrace it, it has let go everything that made it great to embraced its death. What little integrity and spirit this place had left, is now officially going out. You are destroying the spirit and the past of this site, the coat tails of which it has been riding on for many years. Once the last vestiges of what Newgrounds ever meant are gone, the last of us will go with it, and there will be no Newgrounds.
At 11/19/13 12:48 AM, JakkRunt wrote:At 11/19/13 12:44 AM, Cross666 wrote: For what its worth I hope that kid sees my video and actually watches it up to the point where I call him out, artist to artist.Don't you have to earn the title of artist...?
The title of "artist' is about as subjective as calling his little game a piece of "art"
At 11/18/13 12:58 PM, TomFulp wrote: I think a lot about that quote from Batman, "You either die a hero, or live long enough to become the villain." So in this case, NG has just survived long enough for me to finally turn my back on what some considered the most compelling thing about the site.
I think NG has the best creative people on the web and if NG didn't exist, I wouldn't find this same mix of people elsewhere. I don't know how much of this mix has been won by our support for controversial content, vs the myriad of other factors that make NG unique. I hope interesting people keep showing up and surprising us with interesting creations.
Personally, when I first stumbled upon NG back in '06, controversy played no part in becoming a fan; the silliness & fun it offered was what did it. This is something ENTIRELY different, and not fun by any means; EVEN IF there was a good purpose behind it, it sounds to me like it was done in the completely wrong way to begin with. Although, that does beg the question, why is the V-Tech game still there? I've never played either, but considering they're both by the same person, I'll assume it's in the same vein as this one is.
You were stuck in a "You're damned if ya do, and you're damned if ya don't." situation; this was the decision with the least backlash. And honestly, the fact that you even bother to give a shit about what everyone here thinks speaks volumes, knowing ya can't please everybody.
Not only that, but were the ones who, not only respectfully, but requested its removal due to , not a bunch of irrelevant, whiny bitches complaining about political correctness! This was an act of respect for the only people who in this situation! So yeah, needless to say, I'm behind you on this one.
(Sorry for all the caps, but I felt I needed the emphasis on those particular points, on top of the underlining, as some people here don't seem to quite get it.)
One last thing, though, that I gotta ask you: If those parents hadn't said anything, would you have allowed the game to stay up?
On another note, I never realized that Pico's School was made around the time of those shootings......although, come on, Pico was saving the school from a NAZI ALIEN and her followers, who, by the way, were the ones actually shooting up the school in the first place. Because of this, I never would've associated the 2 anyway.
Not saying to ban this, but I tried it and had to quit after the second scene. It said to "Kill your mother." Now I understand it is just a game, but I enjoy games to tell people about. There is no where/way I could explain or defend this to anyone else in the world. If anything this game would only cause problems in my life not solutions. A lot of people may not have children, but everyone has a mother.
This is not even mentioning that in this game you play a bad guy. Game like GTA have you play as a bad guy, but it gives you background on the characters so it does not feel as yourself. Even Fallout, where you make your own choices, there is background on the characters before you do anything. The game just felt too direct.
Now would it be smart to ban it on Newgrounds? Yes. Should it be banned? Tom, I remember playing Pico's School when I was around 10 so I looked up when it came out... It came out in 1999. That was the same year of the Columbine Massacre. For you to say it is too soon would only contradict yourself. With that said by banning this you are throwing the rules up in the air. What is acceptable and what is not? By giving them what they want there will be more pressure to clean up your site. You have kids and you felt for this... There is a game called Kill-A-Baby where you choose whether to kill a baby or not. You see insane people killing their kids on the news, how do you defend this? I understand the game, it is about shock-value and stupid laughs because we can never do this, but not everyone gets it thus because people do not understand. What do you do? If someone says their baby was killed do you keep it up?
All this does it throw a big ball of confusion into the mix. I started coming to this site by accident, I looked up Hamster Dance and was brought to a page where you shoot hamsters dancing. Soon later my cousin came on for some guy running from the mob in a point in click shooter. My friend started coming because his friend showed him a game where you pleasure a girl why she sleeps. I showed a couple of my buds that game, they started playing and showing their friends. So what you are doing is censoring what this site is... or at least was. So what is this site now?
I will always enjoy coming to this site because of what it is not what it was. To me this site is about not taking things too seriously, it's about enjoyable games/movies that make you smile because they are charmingly stupid, and it's about having a good time. When everything else is thrown into the mix it is taking things too seriously, there is no charming only stupid, and there is no good time. When everything is said and done we come here for the games that are made not the controversies. This will be a small grey area that very few will know about or even remember in Newgrounds long, successful, and even more successful future.
At 11/19/13 12:51 AM, King-Duckford wrote: I was here before there wa a Portal, back in the Assassin html days. <snip>
I find your post extremely moving. It does seem like the process of keeping controversial or provocative websites "alive" simultaneously "kills" those aspects which made them controversial or provocative in the very first place. If it is true that you either "die a hero" or "live long enough to see yourself become the villain", maybe it is because every hero eventually faces a decision between survival and compromise.
I didn't know about the Sandy Hook Massacre game until I read this topic. Hmmm... I forget the name of this particular effect.
The game itself quite possibly slipped through censorship if it did not directly allude to Sandy Hook or have "Sandy Hook" in its title, but then, it wouldn't have received the amount of attention it deserves. It tackles the issue gun control, acts as a reminder of the massacre itself, and raises the question: Why would anyone do this? Halfway through the game, I felt numb to amount of lives I was taking, because of the amount of violent media I've already been exposed to. Yet, this game brings to light how anyone, anywhere could have done something like this. So what amount of psychological pressure lead this person to commit a crime such as this? I think that's what its basically getting at.
Plus - Should everyone be trained to use firearms?
Does this have something to do with a distorted self-image (Mirrors flash randomly)
What does this say about Americans?
The US has killed many innocent children and pedestrians in the Middle East, and have had a history of doing so in the past (S. America, etc.)
not always intentionally of course, but still. So why is this a big deal?
At 11/19/13 12:09 AM, Matt-Porter wrote: As a long-term Newgrounds user (far before my signup date), and someone who has spoken with Tom many times over the years, I feel the need to chime in.
I think you hit the nail right on the head. I am also of the far before my sign up date fold. I also run an internet based business. Ad revenue is how you survive. It sucks. It really sucks because as a business you are at the whim of your advertisers. You aren't in control of your own content. It slits you in the soft parts. I have posted a few times in this thread and I maintain that I don't agree with taking down the content. This is from a moral and artistic stand point. Also from the perspective of a user of the site, not an owner. I completely understand Tom's need to take it down.
At 11/19/13 01:08 AM, S3C wrote:At 11/19/13 12:44 AM, Cross666 wrote: kidhe's four years older than you
Listen, watch the video all I am getting is -
1. On the whole, it's a pretty tasteless game, I think pigpen is beyond doing cheap publicity stunts like this and is more than capable of putting out tasteful, original content.
2. Don't justify lifting the ban or not having banned the game due to the possible publicity it could have generated.
That's it. I already agreed with another user in that the whole artistic integrity felt kind of shafted on the whole reasoning for removing the video in the first place. At the same time I don't feel like it should have been an issue in the first place.
Tom is a hypocrite he made pico's school (TEN DAYS AFTER COLUMBINE), and allowing to keep Vtech Massacre and the Pillars of newgrounds was to provide a safe place for artists to submit content regardless of subject (minus racism and discrimination etc) and when Tom removed that due to pressure from special interests he compromised that integrity.
At 11/19/13 12:51 AM, King-Duckford wrote:
Once the last vestiges of what Newgrounds ever meant are gone, the last of us will go with it, and there will be no Newgrounds.
From one bitter vet to another, I salute o7
People still bitching about Tom taking it down?
Tell you what; you same people bitching about the removal of the vid start paying Tom to keep the site up (+ a little profit), and I'm sure he won't mind complying with your bitch ass ideas.
Until then, STFU or make your own damn Newgrounds where you can say all types of offensive edgy bullshit.
Nevermind, don't stop bitching; keep complaining.
It makes for great entertainment.
Skynet is upon us.
At 11/18/13 11:58 AM, TomFulp wrote: Over the years, a number of highly offensive games and movies have been published on Newgrounds and despite the hatemail and being dropped by just about every ad company in existence, we held firm on a policy of anti-censorship. Today, however, I pulled a reversal on that policy and maybe it was a huge mistake or maybe it was the right thing to do, I'm sure there will be a variety of opinions on the matter.
It's your site, Tom. You've got the freedom to do what you want. Keep your site the way you want it. The trash does indeed occasionally need to be taken out. It's the nature of things. People do similar things all the time, and that's ok- until that one person steps over that line, and at that point, something gets done. I approve of your decision here.
This game, however, had a certain level of artfulness and craftsmanship to it. There was a visual and technical quality that revealed a serious level of effort and passion.
It was nicely animated out, but quickly took a dark turn.
It also had a political message I personally agree with; a statement on gun control and the problem of gun violence in the US. It attempted to demonstrate how things can play out differently with changes in our gun laws.
I took it to say that if guns were outlawed, if a killer decides to kill, he will still find a way to do it, using whatever is available to do so. I agree with that thought.
It made you feel and it made you think.
It did so, however, in the context of the Sandy Hook massacre, recreating the event and putting you in the role of the shooter.
Newgrounds has faced harsh criticism in the past for standing firm on not censoring distasteful material, namely games about school shootings. All I can say is that this game took things to a new level in terms of the age of the victims and the realism of the terror they faced on that day.
For those of you who had not played it, it was not a 'fun' game. It was not comical. It was dark, and cold, and sinister. As you entered any room, the teacher would begin to escort the children out. A few of them stayed in their seats, frozen and trembling in fear as you approached them. This is where it crossed the line.
So how is it different from Pico's School or similar games? Other games have been offensive, and yet, they still had a comical feel to them, and they managed to remain disconnected from reality and heart enough to still be accepted. Pico's School was comical and still outlandish enough that it still fell well within the line of acceptability.
That was not the case with this game. It referenced a still open and tender wound before you even start the game, by referencing Sandy Hook in the title. After that, it never got fun. It never had comedy, or jokes, or humor, or anything to redeem it. It was cold, and methodic, and merciless. When it got to the point where the player chooses how to react to the children, it crossed the line of decency.
Kill the homeless bums in a game if you want. Kill the enemy soldiers if you want. Drive your car over the pedestrians and hookers on the sidewalk if you want. In a game, that's all ok. Don't harm the children, though. Children are precious and innocent, and if you're not appaled by the thought of harming a child, even if it is a game, you really need to examine yourself. Really.
Today I'm choosing respect for the Sandy Hook parents over respect for NG's censorship policies.
You did the right thing, Tom. I salute you, and stand behind you. ,:)
Either decision on this matter puts a knot in my stomach.
It shouldn't, Tom. As the head, you occasionally need to step in and make a command decision. You didn't delete something on a whim. You didn't do it to harass an author. You did it out of respect, and that is sorely lacking in today's world. You did the right thing here.
At 11/19/13 01:49 AM, Exedor wrote: Kill the homeless bums in a game if you want. Kill the enemy soldiers if you want. Drive your car over the pedestrians and hookers on the sidewalk if you want. In a game, that's all ok. Don't harm the children, though. Children are precious and innocent, and if you're not appaled by the thought of harming a child, even if it is a game, you really need to examine yourself. Really.
Exedor, I would wager that no one in this thread is not appalled by the thought of harming children (or, for that matter, carelessly driving over pedestrians and hookers). But there is no good reason why games should not be able to examine appalling subjects.
I do agree with the fact this game was EXTREMELY offensive, but I think parents would feel better with age restricted accounts and not just warnings. I think you should make it so if someone is under 17, they can't play mature games. Like if you're under 17, you can't buy mature games at stores anyway. I think it would make the parents feel better and that way you wouldn't have to take anything down, however if it's something like this, I think the rule should be, "nothing offensive about a sensitive subject matter about a real event" but rather something fictional is ok, like Pico's School.
I am not bitching about it being taken down because I do not believe anything should be made on that subject matter, we're still trying to move on as it is, living in the past in this kind of situation is horrible. A bunch of kids get killed...I mean come on! I'm kind've surprised nothing got taken down about the 9/11 incident, the offensive stuff. People died there too. Offensive jokes can only go so far, not THAT far though, otherwise it's crossing a line which makes anyone an inconsiderate jerk.
With that said, I do believe an age restriction with accounts would help, if there aren't already, which I don't believe there are. Warnings are not enough. Hang in there Tom! Tough times, but I do believe you can handle this. Have a meeting with the guys and drink some hot chocolate, you'll think of something :)
At 11/18/13 11:58 AM, TomFulp wrote: I was personally contacted by Sandy Hook parents
should told 'em to fuck off 'cause it's just the internet. not everybody's gonna feel sorry for you even though it was a tragedy.
while that may seem insensitive to some, it's the truth.
humanity is a ravenous beast.
At 11/19/13 02:01 AM, RealFaction wrote: I do agree with the fact this game was EXTREMELY offensive
Meh, not really, it's just unsettling, like watching a video of a man slowly squeezing his testicles and then eating a live hamster.
I don't understand how the game could have possibly made you uncomfortable, unless you were close to the shooting in some way.
I only stopped playing because the preachy song started grating on my ears after a playthrough or two.
Look at this bullshit and proceed to facepalm.
I think every party in the whole thing has a legitimate argument so it's hard for me to take a side.
Except for the fucking news media and shit, the fucktards that say things like a guy in the video I posted "hurr durr we should tell the president bout this game".
And people continue to sit by and watch special interest make a mockery of freedom of expression, while they try to pressure the gov to fucking ban everything and turn us into a police state.
I understand why Tom would take something like that down, all said. It's his business, and he can do what he wants. I disagree with people that have no involvement trying to make a big shitstorm and force him to take it down, though. But I know that he's also human and probably would rather take something like that down on a personal level, rather than because of external pressure.
I just found the "game" and personally think it's disgusting and disgraceful to the victims of that tragedy, however. The game's cringeworthy, but I do see the gun control statement in it, Just saying I politically disagree with censorship except in necessary and extreme cases where it violates someone else's rights, or hurts another person in a direct physical way. Still got the impression this was a terribly insensitive thing for someone to make.
This was the right thing to do Mr. Tom.
Sometimes people's feelings are more important than a game.
You did the right thing by respecting the feelings of especially those who lost their loved ones in the tragedy.
The game's developer has talent and he can create great games in the future, keeping in mind not to make anything so offensive. Humor (offensive) has limits which should not be crossed.
I think you made a wise decision, Tom.
I'm curious - was this game made by the same people who made the game about the Columbine shooting?
Check out my profile for random comments and... pretty much nothing else!
This subverts everything I ever knew this website to stand for.
We are deeply disappointed in you, Tom.