At 11/14/12 08:29 PM, leanlifter1 wrote:

I agree with this "The major hole in your theory is that gold does not have "fake value". I know this because every nation in the world uses it to some extent" But I am not so sure about this "UNIVERSALLY accepted as currency." as GOLD is not currency in any country it is however a means to store wealth not debt. You buy gold with FIAT currency in order to store your wealth in safe keeping. You can then at any time you need to exchange the Gold on the market for FIAT dollars of your choice so you can then buy up China made useless consumer junk that will just devalue the second you by it LOL.

I'm almost 100% sure that everyone from a billionaire, to an isolated tribe in Africa, put value to gold, and are willing to provide goods or services in exchange for it.

At 11/14/12 08:52 PM, LemonCrush wrote:

At 11/14/12 08:29 PM, leanlifter1 wrote:

I agree with this "The major hole in your theory is that gold does not have "fake value". I know this because every nation in the world uses it to some extent" But I am not so sure about this "UNIVERSALLY accepted as currency." as GOLD is not currency in any country it is however a means to store wealth not debt. You buy gold with FIAT currency in order to store your wealth in safe keeping. You can then at any time you need to exchange the Gold on the market for FIAT dollars of your choice so you can then buy up China made useless consumer junk that will just devalue the second you by it LOL.

I'm almost 100% sure that everyone from a billionaire, to an isolated tribe in Africa, put value to gold, and are willing to provide goods or services in exchange for it.

Indigenous people do not hold the same concept of wealth as we Americanized do. Americans are a greedy cancer on this world where the un tainted indigenous man will say he has everything he possibly needs food, shelter, entertainment, pussy, hobbies, friends, family, community, freedom from oppression, job etc and he does not want your slavery and problems. Of course those real type of tribal indigenous people are a dieing breed few and far between in the Amazons etc I presume.

At 11/14/12 08:52 PM, LemonCrush wrote: I'm almost 100% sure that everyone from a billionaire, to an isolated tribe in Africa, put value to gold, and are willing to provide goods or services in exchange for it.

The thing though is that the value is man made, its value is given by men, thus it doesn't actually have much real value. Government issued currency is no different. And no, an isolated tribe in Africa would sure as hell not want to trade in gold, most likely they'll just set it aside as being nothing more than some fancy trinket and continue living their sufficient lifestyle (Columbus in fact ran into a problem here as the Indians themselves had little gold so he found next to nothing when he forced the population to death searching for it). Nevermind the whole pound of salt = pound of gold, whatever value gold has is in the eye of a society, it's not universal.

Something like salt or copper has more real value as in it can be a resource, gold doesn't have nearly as many uses.

At 11/14/12 09:12 PM, Warforger wrote: The thing though is that the value is man made, its value is given by men, thus it doesn't actually have much real value. Government issued currency is no different. And no, an isolated tribe in Africa would sure as hell not want to trade in gold, most likely they'll just set it aside as being nothing more than some fancy trinket and continue living their sufficient lifestyle (Columbus in fact ran into a problem here as the Indians themselves had little gold so he found next to nothing when he forced the population to death searching for it). Nevermind the whole pound of salt = pound of gold, whatever value gold has is in the eye of a society, it's not universal.

Something like salt or copper has more real value as in it can be a resource, gold doesn't have nearly as many uses.

Value is determined by the people involved in the transaction.

That's how economics work. The reasons for a perceived value can be based on rarity and availability (like gold) or practical use (like salt).

Gold, regardless of the reason, has always held value ever since the first caveman made an earring out of it.

At 11/14/12 09:38 PM, LemonCrush wrote: Value is determined by the people involved in the transaction.

We all know this.

That's how economics work. The reasons for a perceived value can be based on rarity and availability (like gold) or practical use (like salt).

That's all fine and dandy. Theissue here is that people lambast paper money for not having any real value and then jump to gold and silver as if their value isn't derived from the same exact source (perception).

Gold, regardless of the reason, has always held value ever since the first caveman made an earring out of it.

And paper money has held value ever since man realized that carrying around notes was a hell of a lot safer and easier than carrying around gold.

At 11/14/12 09:12 PM, Warforger wrote:

At 11/14/12 08:52 PM, LemonCrush wrote: I'm almost 100% sure that everyone from a billionaire, to an isolated tribe in Africa, put value to gold, and are willing to provide goods or services in exchange for it.

Something like salt or copper has more real value as in it can be a resource, gold doesn't have nearly as many uses.

The usefulness of something depends upon the time and place. Diamonds used to be useful mainly only as objects of aesthetic importance, but with modern technology they can be applied to cutting machinery and such.

Prior to 1870[ish] Oil was a total nuissance, a black goo with no useful purpose that would ruin your crops. It had negative value as people would likely have to pay dearly to get rid of it. Today its the single most important reason that you're reading this post right now.

I don't know if an African tribesmen would find copper terribly useful if didn't have the knowledge of metallurgy to make it into a useful tool, unless he simply valued the copper for aesthetic reasons. [Yes, humans love their shiny objects] in which case he might as well go for the gold. [Ha! a pun!]

But the facilitation of exchange is a use in of itself. Money is a lot like oil for a market economy, it enables facilitating production at levels of complexity that would otherwise be impossible. [albeit for different reasons] one which any object could fulfill provided it had certain qualities which are essential for them to be accepted as media of exchange. Divisiblity, portability, identifiability, non-perishability, high price/value ratio.

A currency backed by nothing could work as well as a currency backed by a commodity if the people who handled the currency were responsible, but by the same logic it is also true that dictatorial governance would be stable and orderly as long as the dictator did not abuse his power.

At 11/14/12 10:45 PM, SmilezRoyale wrote: The usefulness of something depends upon the time and place. Diamonds used to be useful mainly only as objects of aesthetic importance, but with modern technology they can be applied to cutting machinery and such.

Just an FYI: industrial diamonds and jewel diamonds are extremely different. Industrial diamonds are often grey and have the appearance of large grains of soot (being carbon and all) very much unlike the pristine crystaline appearance of jewel diamonds.

At 11/15/12 12:39 AM, Camarohusky wrote:

Just an FYI: industrial diamonds and jewel diamonds are extremely different. Industrial diamonds are often grey and have the appearance of large grains of soot (being carbon and all) very much unlike the pristine crystaline appearance of jewel diamonds.

All Diamonds look like shit when they are rapped from the earth. They need to be mined, processed, cleaned cut and polished to become sexy. Cutting Diamonds are of low quality and are imperfect that's why they use them for construction LOL.

At 11/14/12 09:38 PM, LemonCrush wrote: Value is determined by the people involved in the transaction.

Not really, maybe in a barter system, but in the modern finance world prices are set by market forces, which entail hundreds of extremely complicated other details like speculation, demand, etc.

Gold, regardless of the reason, has always held value ever since the first caveman made an earring out of it.

Leanlifter, you really need to stop posting the same shit over and over again. We all understand you're a member of this batshit insane zeitgeist movement. but please, for someone who constantly talks about "sheep" or being "brainwashed." you're hardly known around these parts for actually listening to the real world being described to you.

There is nothing intrinsically valuable about gold. It is rare, but it has few uses. It is faith that in the event of such a catastrophe that we would need to revert to a gold standard in the first place that anyone would value gold at all. Basing your currency on a dense yellow metal is just as 'faith-based' as basing it on promissory notes. In fact, the gold standard chews ass for a number of reasons - gold is heavy and difficult to move around and it's prone to sudden increases in supply that would play havoc with any attempt at a consistent monetary policy. What would you do if we stumbled upon a massive gold reserve somewhere out in the Siberian tundra? To the tune of millions of tons worth?

If I don't care for gold, being backed by gold is as valuable as being backed by paper, namely that the only reason it has any value is because I know other people are willing to accept it as currency.

Seriously, dude. Go read Wealth of Nations. You may as well be shouting from the rooftops about the wonders of snake oil or witch doctors. But I must be one of the sheep.

At 11/15/12 03:34 AM, Feoric wrote:

Gold, regardless of the reason, has always held value ever since the first caveman made an earring out of it.

Leanlifter, you really need to stop posting the same shit over and over again. We all understand you're a member of this batshit insane zeitgeist movement. but please, for someone who constantly talks about "sheep" or being "brainwashed." you're hardly known around these parts for actually listening to the real world being described to you.

I DID NOT state "Gold, regardless of the reason, has always held value ever since the first caveman made an earring out of it." so stop trying to troll by way of spreading misinformation about people that are exposing the financial system and politics for the Ponzi scheme it is cause you suck at it.

At 11/15/12 03:42 AM, leanlifter1 wrote: I DID NOT state "Gold, regardless of the reason, has always held value ever since the first caveman made an earring out of it."

I meant to delete that part of his post.

so stop trying to troll by way of spreading misinformation about people that are exposing the financial system and politics for the Ponzi scheme it is cause you suck at it.

Wow, way to be an crypto-islmamofascist. You can try refuting the actual content in my posts as opposed to saying I suck, which is a tactic used by neo-fascists, btw. I saw it in a youtube video.

At 11/15/12 03:34 AM, Feoric wrote:

There is nothing intrinsically valuable about gold.

Well for starters Gold is a Pure element and more importantly it is a rare Pure element and that's why it's price reflects these inherent properties. Gold is also PHYSICAL which is why it is valuable as paper FIAT currency represent a derivative of a Quasiified value set by criminals like Ben Bernanke in a computer system only made possible by GOLD contacts on the CPU, motherboard, HDDs and even Keyboard switches. Even Copper in this context is intrinsically far more valuable than paper FIAT currency in a computer system LOL. People could place value on a piece of Human shit and the truth is it would realistically be intrinsically worth much more than the paper FIAT currency.

If I don't care for gold, being backed by gold is as valuable as being backed by paper, namely that the only reason it has any value is because I know other people are willing to accept it as currency.

Other countries are starting to reject the American Dollar for instance China is after US Gold reserves as payment as China understand true value and worth and they don't want anymore debased FIAT currency backed only by a promise from the American Government and we all know how much that is worth LOL.

Seriously, dude. Go read Wealth of Nations. You may as well be shouting from the rooftops about the wonders of snake oil or witch doctors. But I must be one of the sheep.

Snake Oil is when you go to the bank to buy Gold and they try and sell you a paper FIAT Promissory note in lieu of Physical gold AKA a "Derivative" which is an ideal that has crashed the whole fucking system of commerce in America more than once so STOP THE MADNESS and LIES !

At 11/15/12 04:33 AM, leanlifter1 wrote: Well for starters Gold is a Pure element and more importantly it is a rare Pure element and that's why it's price reflects these inherent properties.

Yeah, so, why not have a platinum based economy? Gold is basically a useless element. If you somehow found 3 million tons of gold somewhere and brought it back to earth, it would be a financial disaster for whoever did it. A large asteroid can have more gold than all the gold humans have mined in all of human history. It isn't fair to look at it from just an economic standpoint of the current price and use of gold, it fundamentally redefines humans relationship with gold. Many things are expensive because they are rare, it's tempting to look at everything as economic abstracts where every substance simply has a cost and an infinite abstract supply, but that isn't true, some things cost what they do because there isn't a lot on earth. There are rarer elements than gold that have similar inherent properties.

Gold is also PHYSICAL which is why it is valuable

In other words, gold is inherently valuable because it has physical properties which make it a good medium of exchange.

So does paper.

as paper FIAT currency represent a derivative of a Quasiified value set by criminals like Ben Bernanke in a computer system only made possible by GOLD contacts on the CPU, motherboard, HDDs and even Keyboard switches.

O____O

What the fuck? I....what? Just...what?

Even Copper in this context is intrinsically far more valuable than paper FIAT currency in a computer system LOL. People could place value on a piece of Human shit and the truth is it would realistically be intrinsically worth much more than the paper FIAT currency.

I absolutely love people like you and morefngdbs who capitalize certain key words, like FIAT or FED or DEBT, lmao. You guys are a riot.

The thing that people like you forget to mention when discussing specie money versus fiat money is that specie money is about as fictional as fiat money. Gold and silver are pretty, sure, and last a hell of a long time, but have almost no intrinsic value. You can't build with them, they make useless (and very heavy) clothes, and you can't eat them. Gold has some limited applications in electronics, and silver is used in photography and some other chemical processes like in catalysts, but their value is higher than other similar materials (like, say, copper or lead) purely because people go "ooh, shiny!" and have been doing so for about as long as there's been something recognizable as commerce. The trick to currency is that it has to be scarce. US Dollars are hard to counterfeit, and gold is hard to find, so they're both stable mediums. Basically, anything can be currency, it just has to be liquid, trusted, and scarce (to a certain extent, you need a large money supply for a large economy).

Other countries are starting to reject the American Dollar for instance China is after US Gold reserves as payment as China understand true value and worth and they don't want anymore debased FIAT currency backed only by a promise from the American Government and we all know how much that is worth LOL.

If you think China buying gold is a sign of them rejecting the American fucking dollar, you're beyond help. You know how much money they put into our bonds? But, then again, I already explained this to you, many many times, so there's no point in doing it again, especially if all you're going to do is ignore it and not respond to it.

Snake Oil is when you go to the bank to buy Gold and they try and sell you a paper FIAT Promissory note in lieu of Physical gold AKA a "Derivative" which is an ideal that has crashed the whole fucking system of commerce in America more than once so STOP THE MADNESS and LIES !

Snake oil is your literally insane posts.

At 11/15/12 06:21 AM, Feoric wrote:

If you think China buying gold is a sign of them rejecting the American fucking dollar, you're beyond help. You know how much money they put into our bonds? But, then again, I already explained this to you, many many times, so there's no point in doing it again, especially if all you're going to do is ignore it and not respond to it.

China is not buying US GOLD they are accepting it as DEBT payment in lieu of the worthless debased American Dollar.

At 11/14/12 09:38 PM, LemonCrush wrote: Value is determined by the people involved in the transaction.

In a barter economy, otherwise value is determined by the markets, or by supply and demand.

That's how economics work.
The reasons for a perceived value can be based on rarity and availability (like gold) or practical use (like salt).

No, rarity and availability doesn't make something valuable. If something is rare it isn't necessarily valuable.

Gold, regardless of the reason, has always held value ever since the first caveman made an earring out of it.

Because it was malleable, the problem is that the basis for it being valuable is pretty much the same way paper currency is; because we say so. The other big problem is that gold does not keep up with demand, thus you still have an unstable currency, you also get to the point of deflation etc. etc. it's not that great.

At 11/15/12 08:26 PM, Warforger wrote:

If something is rare it isn't necessarily valuable.

However if something that is considered "In Demand" & "Valuable" such as GOLD for example and "GOLD" happens to be rare it is that "Rare" condition drives up price based on the "Supply & Demand" pricing mechanism.

At 11/15/12 08:49 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: However if something that is considered "In Demand" & "Valuable" such as GOLD for example and "GOLD" happens to be rare it is that "Rare" condition drives up price based on the "Supply & Demand" pricing mechanism.

You can say the same thing for U.S. Dollars.

At 11/15/12 08:52 PM, Feoric wrote:

At 11/15/12 08:49 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: However if something that is considered "In Demand" & "Valuable" such as GOLD for example and "GOLD" happens to be rare it is that "Rare" condition drives up price based on the "Supply & Demand" pricing mechanism.

You can say the same thing for U.S. Dollars.

FIAT "U.S. Dollars" are not in demand and they never were though they are "Mandated" to be accepted and furthermore enforced by "The U.S. Government !" as payment in all transactions within commerce governed by non other than "The Government". In other words the U.S. Government made "an offer you can not refuse" ala Mafia style.

At 11/15/12 09:00 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: FIAT "U.S. Dollars" are not in demand

What fucking planet are you living on? It's the demand for goods that sets the demand for dollars. Money in itself has very little value (except as reserve currencies for central bank). So if the dollar is high, that means demand for US goods (or currently, bonds) is high. If the dollar loses value, that means demand for US goods is falling and less buyers are looking for dollars. Dollars themselves aren't an economy. That's what inflation is, the loss of value of money compared to the value of all goods in the economy. The price of everything in dollars is going up, but the price of goods relative to other goods remains the same because the economy isn't producing any more of them. If the price of stuff goes up because more money is circulating in the economy, thus people have more money, thus demand is higher. If resource scarcity hasn't changed, production costs will go up also, so the market will stabilize at the same production level as before, only at a higher price. Not to mention US debt held in dollars by definition, and investors looooove our bonds. You have zero fucking clue what you're talking about.

At 11/15/12 09:12 PM, Feoric wrote:

At 11/15/12 09:00 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: FIAT "U.S. Dollars" are not in demand

What fucking planet are you living on?

and they never were though they are "Mandated" to be accepted and furthermore enforced by "The U.S. Government&Military !"

At 11/15/12 09:16 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: and they never were though they are "Mandated" to be accepted and furthermore enforced by "The U.S. Government&Military !"

Shh. Can't talk. Government. Helicopters. Fluoride. Don't. Drink. The. Water.

At 11/14/12 10:38 PM, Camarohusky wrote:

And paper money has held value ever since man realized that carrying around notes was a hell of a lot safer and easier than carrying around gold.

Well, except it's value isn't actually based on perception.

You see, the reason the value of the dollar is so volatile, is because it is not tied to a commodity or finite resource. It can be simply printed whenever, so it is not actually subject to supply and demand.

At 11/15/12 10:57 PM, LemonCrush wrote:
You see, the reason the value of the dollar is so volatile, is because it is not tied to a commodity or finite resource. It can be simply printed whenever, so it is not actually subject to supply and demand.

Just about everything is subject to supply and demand, births-deaths, and the dollar is a textbook example for so many reasons! Investors may choose accumulate a certain currency based on is worth and future worth when compared with other currencies, trade goods, precious metals, etc. If the dollar or any other global currency wasn't subject to supply and demand economics, then there would simply be no demand or a supply of the dollar!

Jesus if you nut jobs would actually sit down and read factual textbooks and research entries! There is no such thing as an "unlimited resource", there are direct and indirect costs of adding money into circulation. If you brainwashed tits knew anything factual about government economic policies, you would understand that the government prints very little cash compared to the reserves it simply releases into circulation.

So when you're bitching about the government "printing money" and "runaway inflation" (which are both red meat terms used to appeal to your party's mindless base), what informed people are actually discussing are purchases the government makes which result in increased circulation of dollars, and possibly inflation or decreasing demand. Just so you know, adding currency into circulation isn't always a bad policy and it is recommended by most economists during a period of recession.

This abstract provides a nice figure (refer to graphical figure 2) which shows the percent effect of increased government spending on U.S. GDP from the 2009 Obama stimulus.

At 11/15/12 09:17 PM, Feoric wrote:

At 11/15/12 09:16 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: and they never were though they are "Mandated" to be accepted and furthermore enforced by "The U.S. Government&Military !"

Shh. Can't talk. Government. Helicopters. Fluoride. Don't. Drink. The. Water.

"The. Water." You mean the koolaid !

At 11/15/12 11:38 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: "The. Water." You mean the koolaid !

Are you going to respond to my posts or just sprout out more banal bullshit catchphrases only paranoid conspiracy theorists use?

At 11/16/12 03:09 AM, Feoric wrote:

At 11/15/12 11:38 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: "The. Water." You mean the koolaid !

Are you going to respond to my posts or just sprout out more banal bullshit catchphrases only paranoid conspiracy theorists use?

Why would I supply a troll with bait ?

At 11/16/12 03:21 AM, leanlifter1 wrote:

Are you going to respond to my posts or just sprout out more banal bullshit catchphrases only paranoid conspiracy theorists use?

Why would I supply a troll with bait ?

Well, using your logic, you already did with this post. But I genuinely anticipate your next retort, if you choose to make one. As a poster in the Politics forum, I feel that I have an obligation to not just myself but also the other posters partaking in the discussion to defend my positions with cited evidence and proper English. If you don't feel the same way, this forum will be much better off without you.