Concerning ^^^^

I think willpower does have a hand in how long you live if you're in critical condition or have a terminal illness. Although it might not make sense, it doesnt hurt to try, does it?

At 1/10/10 09:20 PM, Grizzli wrote: I think willpower does have a hand in how long you live if you're in critical condition or have a terminal illness. Although it might not make sense, it doesnt hurt to try, does it?

They say having a positive attitude helps. I could see where it might make a difference since the brain does control the immune system (albeit on one of those levels where you aren't constantly cognizant of sending out the white blood cells) but there is good evidence to believe that attitude has something to do with recovery and all that. But in the end it comes down to genetics, how well your immune system works, and the level and quality of treatment you get.

Also, I'd be curious as to really the the flip side of the argument. Like if you're a super religious person, you believe in some form of eternal reward, and you are absolutely convinced you did everything you needed to get there...um...why stick around? Why wouldn't you just see this disease as God's way of telling you it's time to come home and give up the fight? I've never quite understood the need to cling to a life you believe is transient if you're assured there's more and better beyond it...unless you aren't 100% sure.

Well as a counter to that there is the beleif that life is a gift from God. I mean why would murder be a sin unless some importantance was placed on mortal life? I am well aware it's possible that that was written in the self interest of people who, at the time, were alive.
Also, there's simple love of life. The person might feel that for whatever reason they are not personally "done." That, or the counter of feeling ready, occurs to people with or without religous faith.

At 1/10/10 11:11 PM, stafffighter wrote: Well as a counter to that there is the beleif that life is a gift from God. I mean why would murder be a sin unless some importantance was placed on mortal life? I am well aware it's possible that that was written in the self interest of people who, at the time, were alive.
Also, there's simple love of life. The person might feel that for whatever reason they are not personally "done." That, or the counter of feeling ready, occurs to people with or without religous faith.

This make little sense, you can say its a gift, but that doesn't mean shit, it doesn't mean God is real, and again, morales are not a invention of religion, its already there from the start.

At 1/11/10 12:37 AM, Warforger wrote:

At 1/10/10 11:11 PM, stafffighter wrote: Well as a counter to that there is the beleif that life is a gift from God. I mean why would murder be a sin unless some importantance was placed on mortal life? I am well aware it's possible that that was written in the self interest of people who, at the time, were alive.
Also, there's simple love of life. The person might feel that for whatever reason they are not personally "done." That, or the counter of feeling ready, occurs to people with or without religous faith.

This make little sense, you can say its a gift, but that doesn't mean shit, it doesn't mean God is real, and again, morales are not a invention of religion, its already there from the start.

I accounted for that in my post. I talked about how the desire for life or peace with death are indeed universial. You're going to have to do a little more than categorize me as a beleiver and run with it

At 1/10/10 04:32 PM, poxpower wrote: Yeah: if you knew you were going to die in 10 years, YOU'D THINK ABOUT IT ALL THE TIME.
But if you know you're going to die in 60 years, you don't think about it?

Assuming the reaction of every individual (all 6 billion of them) whom all have differentiating personalities.

It is not an absolute that someone would think about it continuously regardless of the time span.

Take mental health for example. If someone with a mental disability is unable to understand their impending death, would they think about it? Or even someone with psychological problems, would they think about it, or would they rather think about how they're going to feed their unicorns?

Different people would have different reactions to this hypothetical scenario. There may be a majority consensus, but there would still be differences in some nonetheless.

Oh and hi guys.

Im atheist but i make up my own gods for fun. So what that make me?

At 1/11/10 02:58 PM, Brick-top wrote:

Different people would have different reactions to this hypothetical scenario.

Nooooo shit.

But most people think about death increasingly frequently as it draws near.

That's how humans are built. We don't think about long-term things unless we're made to.

I've never quite understood the need to cling to a life you believe is transient if you're assured there's more and better beyond it...unless you aren't 100% sure.

Super religious people dont kill themselves/ give up on life because that a sin.

its also because Death is the biggest mystery, as much as we like to guess we really dont know what happens after death. Its all just speculation, which is why people fear it.

At 1/11/10 09:06 PM, Grizzli wrote: Super religious people dont kill themselves/ give up on life because that a sin.

I don't think the "giving up" bit is a sin. But I know suicide obviously is, so that part makes sense to me and I wasn't arguing on that at all. I was just curious about what people might have to say if we're talking about someone claiming to be a 100% believer who then fights and claws and does everything possible to hold onto life even one second longer.

its also because Death is the biggest mystery, as much as we like to guess we really dont know what happens after death. Its all just speculation, which is why people fear it.

I know this. But if you're a 100% believe in a faith where you think there's an afterlife and an eternal reward situation that does not factor in any sort of reincarnation well, what exactly is so sacred about hanging onto your life with super duper tenacity? Unless you aren't entirely sure and therefore you should be honest about that fact. Many people aren't, and that ticks me off. Just be clear that you don't know, but you have a belief about what you think will happen.

At 1/11/10 05:11 PM, poxpower wrote: Nooooo shit.

But most people think about death increasingly frequently as it draws near.

That's the first time you've said most. Previously you didn't. What you did do was ask if they would and/or assert that they would/wouldn't do X, Y or Z in a certain circumstance.

Isn't that modification of an argument as another shows an opposing argument?

That's how humans are built.

If humans are constructed this way, then why are only most following the pattern and others are not?

We don't think about long-term things unless we're made to.

Care to prove it? Any studies or research?

I know this. But if you're a 100% believe in a faith where you think there's an afterlife and an eternal reward situation that does not factor in any sort of reincarnation well, what exactly is so sacred about hanging onto your life with super duper tenacity?

Thats what i said, NOBODY can have 100% confidence in whats going to happen because they just havent seen it for themselves. We evolved (or created) with the instinct to remain alive, and that instinct will always make people doubt what is after death.

It doesnt matter how religious you are or how rigid in beliefs, you just dont damn well know, clear and simple. There is no way someone has no doubt whatsoever in what happens after death. Its just plain against our nature.

However, i cant know either, this is purely opinion using facts for a persuasive argument.

At 1/12/10 02:58 PM, Brick-top wrote:

That's the first time you've said most.

Yeah because I figure people here are old enough to not do the whole "HEY CHINESE PEOPLE DON'T HAVE BLACK HAIR I KNOW ONE DUDE WHO HAS NO HAIR, HE'S BALD, SO TAKE IT BACK MAN YOU WERE WRONG!"

If humans are constructed this way, then why are only most following the pattern and others are not?

Who even are these "others" anyway?
I can't even imagine any philosophy or religion where people don't start thinking about death as it draws near.

The only exception I can think of would be... like... mentally retarded people.

Care to prove it? Any studies or research?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTO_dZUvb JA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-4flnuxN V4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiz3XARUN eM

People are notoriously terrible at evaluating the future or making choices that will benefit them in the future. We just don't do it. Tons of people smoke, for instance. They can't see themselves agonizing on a death bed 40 years down the line with their black gunked-up lungs. They just don't see future events like they see present events.
Something that will happen tomorrow is imagined very clearly by people.

Just think about it for yourself. Like Christmas for instance, when you were a kid. When it was 10 months away, you didn't spend even one minute out of the day to think about what it would be like, but 2 days before you couldn't wait. You'd spend all day imagining what awesome present you'd be getting.

That's what we do. It's useful because we don't have to think constantly about everything so we focus on the moment and survive, but it's bad because our society offers a lot of opportunities for long-term planning and we suck at it.

At 1/12/10 07:47 PM, poxpower wrote: Yeah because I figure people here are old enough to not do the whole "HEY CHINESE PEOPLE DON'T HAVE BLACK HAIR I KNOW ONE DUDE WHO HAS NO HAIR, HE'S BALD, SO TAKE IT BACK MAN YOU WERE WRONG!"

Old enough...on ng? Yeeaahhhh.

Here's a tip. Don't assume what others are going to do when trying to argue that people can't plan ahead.

If humans are constructed this way, then why are only most following the pattern and others are not?

Who even are these "others" anyway?
I can't even imagine any philosophy or religion where people don't start thinking about death as it draws near.

I gave examples in a previous post.

But here's an interesting factor. You first said another would think about death as if draws near. I said you were assuming everyone would. You said it was most people, not all. Now you're asking who are these others? So is it all people or only some?

The only exception I can think of would be... like... mentally retarded people.

Then think more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTO_dZUvb JA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-4flnuxN V4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiz3XARUN eM

People are notoriously terrible at evaluating the future or making choices that will benefit them in the future. We just don't do it. Tons of people smoke, for instance.

You mean by 'tons' you mean about a sixth of the population? (depending on where live of course), yeah, that's HUGE. More people (in this country) watch a cheesy car show than they smoke.

They can't see themselves agonizing on a death bed 40 years down the line with their black gunked-up lungs. They just don't see future events like they see present events.
Something that will happen tomorrow is imagined very clearly by people.

Care to prove that every single smoker (past, present and future) have not seen themselves agonizing on a death bed 40 years down the line?

Well, there are exceptions. Me. Hence the patches. Time to say, whoops?

Just think about it for yourself. Like Christmas for instance, when you were a kid. When it was 10 months away, you didn't spend even one minute out of the day to think about what it would be like, but 2 days before you couldn't wait. You'd spend all day imagining what awesome present you'd be getting.

Actually as a child I got an allowance to buy presents. Since my entire family are stubborn about getting gifts it was a challenging task. I would buy months in advance. So it was always on my mind. But with regards to getting gifts, I've been wanting a particular smartphone since 2008, I spend quite some time wondering if I could scam a family member to getting it for me on Christmas. But decided to get it myself when my new card arrived.

That's what we do. It's useful because we don't have to think constantly about everything so we focus on the moment and survive, but it's bad because our society offers a lot of opportunities for long-term planning and we suck at it.

What really sucks is you're still doing it! You say "if you were doing this, you'd do that. People do this and that" but If I challenge the concept, it suddenly turns to "most". Why are you asserting what I would do? You don't know me. I could suffer from severe psychosis.

But, here's a fun linky to provide after you proposed a speech off youtube instead of a peer reviewed article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurology

Brick, there's nothing wrong with a generalized-collective as long as it's not intended to be universal. And providing exceptions to such a claim does not disprove the claim.

Both pox's position and yours are being too selectively supported to prove either over the other. But...

Temporal proximity (generally) plays a large role in determining the amount someone may think about something. Whether we are expected to act is another huge influence here. Pox's argument, that we'd think more about death if we knew the 'when,' is actually dealing with both.

***

How effective we are with our foresight, when practiced, is another issue altogether.

***

At 1/14/10 03:59 PM, Brick-top wrote: Here's a tip. Don't assume what others are going to do when trying to argue that people can't plan ahead.

Pox's assumption is not actually ironic because you're not actually juxtaposing it with his argument. "People can't plan ahead," is not Pox's argument.

At 1/13/10 03:43 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:

If God, then what is His role regarding humanity, given the evidence?

You can count evidence as strictly teachings and traditions, strictly the observances of modern man, both, or just your hunch.

I view the role of alleged God as one of nepotistic judgement. Knowable, yet unpredictable.

Imp wrote:

I'm game. I'll try stabbing at yours first:

How is God knowable if he is unpredictable?

It's in His nature. We percieve the concept as greater than ourselves, yet aren't generally able to grasp the full scope of things, if in concept only. Do we fully understand ourselves? Do you fully understand yourself?

An analogy, I guess, would be that we are made in His image yet find ourselves as unpredictable as God could be. The relationship between God and us is inseperable... of that nobody should argue. Atheists could claim God is merely a figment man made up. The notion would still hold true, if in a seemingly weakened way.

In short, the future is not certain. For you, especially. But you know you're here, right?

And in what ways is unpredictability evidence of God, and not just a lack of knowledge on our part?

There is no guarantee that lack of knowledge undermines our entire journey. After all, we were supposedly banished from the Garden by defying a direct order and consuming the fruit of one of the two forbidden trees. Who knows what symbolism or literal meaning can stem from that, what I do know is that it's been a contextually important piece in main religious dogma.

....No, how do you know that he is real? I mean, he's as likely to be real as Santa Claus and Unicorns, so why is your God real? Hell how is even the Christian/Muslim/Judism God the real God? Maybe your God is just bullshit and the real God is the flying Spaghetti monster and Cthulu are the only real Gods, prove me wrong.

At 1/14/10 10:53 PM, Warforger wrote: ....No, how do you know that he is real? I mean, he's as likely to be real as Santa Claus and Unicorns, so why is your God real? Hell how is even the Christian/Muslim/Judism God the real God? Maybe your God is just bullshit and the real God is the flying Spaghetti monster and Cthulu are the only real Gods, prove me wrong.

Is this kid a broken record or what? Stop slinging this question around everywhere you go and try to actually participate in the topic at hand.

At 1/14/10 03:59 PM, Brick-top wrote:

You mean by 'tons' you mean about a sixth of the population?
(depending on where live of course), yeah, that's HUGE. More people (in this country) watch a cheesy car show than they smoke.

Are you being sarcastic or something?

Care to prove that every single smoker

Seriously stop this EVERYONE LOLOL argumentation.

Yeah, children in Ethiopia don't relate to the Christmas example either, OH NO, MY OBSERVATION IS UNDONE!!!!

Why are you asserting what I would do?

I'm 100% certain that you think about far future events less vividly and often that near future events.
Or else you couldn't function as an individual.

But, here's a fun linky to provide after you proposed a speech off youtube instead of a peer reviewed article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurology

What on earth does that have to do with anything I've been talking about?

Why is it that athiest are hell bent on proving god is fake? I mean lets take a look at religion...

At 1/14/10 11:52 PM, poxpower wrote: Are you being sarcastic or something?

Statistically accurate (like I said, depending on the location).

Care to prove that every single smoker

Seriously stop this EVERYONE LOLOL argumentation.

Seriously, stop changing the subject LOLOL argumentation.

Actually, you did change the subject. You said smokers don't think about the future, I asked you to prove it and gave an exception (me).

Yeah, children in Ethiopia don't relate to the Christmas example either, OH NO, MY OBSERVATION IS UNDONE!!!!

What?

I'm 100% certain that you think about far future events less vividly and often that near future events.
Or else you couldn't function as an individual.

Define 'far future events'. How long is this? 10 years? 20? 30? to the day I'm estimated to die? Luckily, I've thought about all of them and even made plans in some areas (even my retirement). What is the criteria for the amount of thinking needed? How much brain effort is required to meet your standards?

What on earth does that have to do with anything I've been talking about?

it is the study of using known alterations to have future foresight. The followers of this think about the future constantly (something you say we don't do).

At 1/15/10 02:35 PM, Brick-top wrote:

At 1/14/10 11:52 PM, poxpower wrote: Are you being sarcastic or something?

Statistically accurate (like I said, depending on the location).

Are you possibly saying that 1/6th of USA's population ( or wherever ) isn't "huge"?

You said smokers don't think about the future

Nope.

Luckily, I've thought about all of them

I think you don't understand the difference between "think about often" and "have thought about' in what I'm saying.

The followers of this think about the future constantly (something you say we don't do).

I bet you a million bucks that those guys think more often about what sandwich they're having for lunch than what they'll do in 2025.

At 1/15/10 03:46 PM, poxpower wrote: Are you possibly saying that 1/6th of USA's population ( or wherever ) isn't "huge"?

I never said the US. I also put (depending...) so I don't accidentally fall into an Axiom. Global totals are so difficult to find these days.

You said smokers don't think about the future

Nope.

Do you mean "No they don't think about the future" or do you mean "No I didn't say that"?

I think you don't understand the difference between "think about often" and "have thought about' in what I'm saying.

Then clarify for me.

The followers of this think about the future constantly (something you say we don't do).

I bet you a million bucks that those guys think more often about what sandwich they're having for lunch than what they'll do in 2025.

I bet you a million bucks you have no proof these guys even want a sandwich to begin with.

2025? Hmm...that's not a long way off. It's only a few years away. But it's devilishly close to the time where I'll be worried about my heart and having regular check ups. I've also got a funeral (maybe more if they don't pull their finger out of their ass) to plan possibly around that time and hopefully (fingers crossed) the things I'm planning now will be finished before then to the point where I'm comfortable. Finance, health, social, career etc, you know the real world stuff.

At 1/15/10 06:03 PM, Brick-top wrote:

I never said the US. I also put (depending...) so I don't accidentally fall into an Axiom. Global totals are so difficult to find these days.

My question was: do you think 1/6th of the total world population ( or whatever population you were thinking of ) is not a huge proportion?

Do you mean "No they don't think about the future" or do you mean "No I didn't say that"?

I didn't say smokers don't think about the future.

I think you don't understand the difference between "think about often" and "have thought about' in what I'm saying.

Then clarify for me.

- I think about girls often
- I have thought about the pope taking a shit.

If you can read basic English, you should understand the difference.

2025? Hmm...that's not a long way off. It's only a few years away. But it's devilishly close to the time where I'll be worried about my heart and having regular check ups. I

Yeah, really? Do you think about that every day?
Do you think about that more often than what you're going to do on the weekend that week?

At 1/14/10 11:27 PM, amaterasu wrote:

At 1/14/10 10:53 PM, Warforger wrote: ....No, how do you know that he is real? I mean, he's as likely to be real as Santa Claus and Unicorns, so why is your God real? Hell how is even the Christian/Muslim/Judism God the real God? Maybe your God is just bullshit and the real God is the flying Spaghetti monster and Cthulu are the only real Gods, prove me wrong.

Is this kid a broken record or what? Stop slinging this question around everywhere you go and try to actually participate in the topic at hand.

OMG YOU CALLED ME A KID! So I assume you must be a WWII veteran along whose a former UN ambassador with a 12 inch long penis and hangs out at the local douchebag club of exclusive people who matter.

Leave the thread. Seriously. You sound like a big hypocrite, considering I was replying to someone who assumes God is real, then goes on to explain how he must be real about his "nature" and all that, while trying to bring him back the the beginning of the reasoning rather then going into "its his nature to be lurking"

I think that it is not right to say that 100% there is no God.I personally believe that 99% there is no God but, if He exists it doesnt have a meaning,because no one helped me to improve my life, except my self-effort(humanity effort and mental power ,general).You see it is nice to be THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE AND OF ALL LIVING THINGS yeah nice title for sure but something is missing in this.I dont want to insult anyones self-thought and believes.So i thin that we can have alittle conversation on this issue. *****sorry,if i have mistakes and bad enlish*****

My biggest problem with religion, is not the idea of god, worshiping Him, yadda yadda yadda. Its the corruption of the Church, and the political immunity that goes with. Because GOD FORBID the Church does something bad, and has to take responsibility. No, instead they fling "racist" and "anti-christ", then try, and usually succeed, in manipulating the public against the prosecutors. Is that fair? No. Is that justice? No. Is that corrupt beyond all hell? YES YES YES.

And then there's Church funding. Did you know that they dont have to pay taxes? At all? Homeless shelters gotta pay taxes. Soup kitchens must pay taxes. YOU have to pay taxes. So how is this, in any way, fair, or just? This isnt a democracy, its a leniency, and right now its putting a shit-load of weight in the "public opinion" rather than the "whats right" category.

Corruption really sucks, dont it?

Maybe you are right my friend.In my opinion we are the ones(the simple people)who should take the blame for the story of the church s political- economical power because we let them be strong using our belives and emotions.

At 1/15/10 06:39 PM, poxpower wrote: My question was: do you think 1/6th of the total world population ( or whatever population you were thinking of ) is not a huge proportion?

In comparison to what?

Do you mean "No they don't think about the future" or do you mean "No I didn't say that"?

I didn't say smokers don't think about the future.

Then perhaps it was my poor choice in words. But you did say this:
" Tons of people smoke, for instance. They can't see themselves agonizing on a death bed 40 years down the line with their black gunked-up lungs. They just don't see future events like they see present events.
Something that will happen tomorrow is imagined very clearly by people."

- I think about girls often
- I have thought about the pope taking a shit.

How often? I thought about what my next passport renewal picture would look like in 10 years (because I've just updated it). The old picture and my new one look different.

Do you mean this?

If you can read basic English, you should understand the difference.

Which form? Come on now, over a billion people speak it in 53 countries you must be specific ;)

Yeah, really? Do you think about that every day?
Do you think about that more often than what you're going to do on the weekend that week?

Only one thought about the weekend enters my head. Relaxation. That's about it. No plans, no desires, no thoughts about instantaneously turning into a slob.

Everyday? Possibly, but then again I don't memorise every single thought process that enters and leaves my head. However I do know recently I have been thinking about it quite often because I've now become health obsessed and want to be the only member of my family that doesn't die before 70 or turn into an alcoholic.

Just go and talk to your ceiling man....oops sorry,hum,i meant pray to God to give you money for a better car.But something tells me that God wont give you shit.

At 1/17/10 11:08 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: Should I prove you incorrect by pointing out all those names were created by humans, and thus, are only symbolic of the true nature of God the Creator.

Hate to burst your bubble there, champ, but the Bible is a man-made book, authored by people, and for all intensive purposes are just a bunch of stories. Stories that for the most part advocate a good way of living, at least as long as you're reading the New Testament. However, stay away from the realm of proof.

The bible is not a proof of god. It is a book written by humans. Besides, you can't state anything as proof for god, because the definition of faith itself is belief without proof/evidence.