At 3/5/09 10:36 AM, Nosferatu-of-Worms wrote: But all of what you said is beside the point. A real guitar will always win out, its like most of the people have said its the human feeling. That's an extremely difficult thing to replicate through VST. I have not seen a VST that can properly replicate a famous solo, something human beings can do easily with enough practice.

Human feeling. Jesus christ, who fucking cares?

Fret noise and bum notes a thing of the past? Yes please.

I reckon 90% of the people here dissing VST guitars are probably pretty awful guitar players. It's just a hunch.

I bet they also use drum plugins, but I think that's already been discussed.

At 3/5/09 07:23 PM, jarrydn wrote:
Human feeling. Jesus christ, who fucking cares?

Well, it sounds far more organic, and to me, after awhile, completely digital vst guitars start to sound cold and harsh, no matter how much midtone you cram on there.

Fret noise and bum notes a thing of the past? Yes please.

Sometimes something so human has flow, of notes ever so slightly off time, and the natural human velocity has power and kinetic feel to the music. If music was all completely square and perfect without dynamics, it would become boring and routine. Imperfections aren't necessarily flaws.

I reckon 90% of the people here dissing VST guitars are probably pretty awful guitar players. It's just a hunch.

Me? Nah. But that is irrelevant, and you just seem to enjoy attacking people. Please be a nicer person so you can contribute to a healthy discussion. :(

I bet they also use drum plugins, but I think that's already been discussed.

Thing is, most people aren't bashing the concept of electronic vst guitars, but how bad they sound. Drums are a far more consistant instrument, and can be replicated easily(even with actual recorded drum hits at multiple velocities), so it can sound like a natural acoustic drumset if done right. Even then, the slight human rolls and kinetics of a drum kit still aren't present, but can be very close.

At 3/5/09 07:23 PM, jarrydn wrote: Human feeling. Jesus christ, who fucking cares?

I fucking care, thanks dickweed.

Fret noise and bum notes a thing of the past? Yes please.

No thanks. Fret noise is natural - without it, something's missing. Namely, REAL SOUND. Asshole.

I reckon 90% of the people here dissing VST guitars are probably pretty awful guitar players. It's just a hunch.

If you're going to come here and be an asshole, you need to fucking leave. This thread obviously has nothing for you. You can be an elitist prick somewhere else.

I bet they also use drum plugins, but I think that's already been discussed.

I use drum plugins ALL I FUCKING WANT TO. That has NOTHING to do with SHITTY SYNTHETIC GUITARS, you fucking dumbass.

Jesus Christ, everyone's being pleasant and giving credit where it's due, then YOU come along and tell EVERYONE that doesn't particularly care for synth guitars that THEY'RE WRONG, and YOU, in your infinite wisdom, are absolutely %100 percent correct about EVERYTHING.
GET THE FUCK OFF THE FORUM IF YOU CAN'T CONTRIBUTE WITH SOMETHING RESEMBLING RESPECT.
Thank you.

BTW: I'm still right and you're still wrong. Deal with it.

At 3/5/09 07:59 PM, Kor-Rune wrote: Well, it sounds far more organic, and to me, after awhile, completely digital vst guitars start to sound cold and harsh, no matter how much midtone you cram on there.

Fair enough. I however, am quite partial to the sound of a properly implemented Slayer patch. I think if you actually open up your mind to something new, instead of depending on what you already know and trust, you can do amazing things.

Sometimes something so human has flow, of notes ever so slightly off time, and the natural human velocity has power and kinetic feel to the music. If music was all completely square and perfect without dynamics, it would become boring and routine. Imperfections aren't necessarily flaws.

And the exact same can be held for the opposite. There are numerous styles of music where dynamics is not the main point of attention. And yes, most guitar based music is dynamic, but I've never read the rule book that says music HAS to be dynamic. If everyone continues to abide by their silly little rules, nothing will ever change. Also, I think if people focused more on writing a good melody and rhythm, dynamics would take a back seat.

Me? Nah. But that is irrelevant, and you just seem to enjoy attacking people. Please be a nicer person so you can contribute to a healthy discussion. :(

All I see in this thread is unnecessary venom and animosity towards the use of a VST, so I thought I'd join in on the fun.

Thing is, most people aren't bashing the concept of electronic vst guitars, but how bad they sound. Drums are a far more consistant instrument, and can be replicated easily(even with actual recorded drum hits at multiple velocities), so it can sound like a natural acoustic drumset if done right. Even then, the slight human rolls and kinetics of a drum kit still aren't present, but can be very close.

Electronic VST guitars don't sound bad, they sound different.

And sure, a synthetic drumset CAN sound like a natural acoustic drumset when done right, but alot of the "real" guitarists on NG seem to make a bit of an oversight in that area. What's the point of potential, if people aren't even using it?

I suppose then that you can argue that the Drumkit From Hell plugin is a bit pricey, but then that brings us full circle back to an often argued about facet of the virtual guitarist. A few people who use Slayer say that they can't afford a guitar, and then I see them get torn to shreds about how a guitar isn't very expensive! Well, I can tell you, a guitar and a basic recording interface costs a bit more than EZDrummer, for instance.

And even then, I've heard quite a few tracks using just the built in loops.

Look, I don't even care about that. Music is music. It's a personal thing, and every song has it's place. But all the hypocrisy and ignorance in this thread cannot go unchecked. It saddens me to see so many jaded people ripping into a small portion of our community for what is essentially no reason.

At 3/5/09 08:10 PM, TwilightNecrosis wrote:

BTW: I'm still right and you're still wrong. Deal with it.

If you say so.

At 3/5/09 08:25 PM, jarrydn wrote:

At 3/5/09 08:10 PM, TwilightNecrosis wrote:

BTW: I'm still right and you're still wrong. Deal with it.

If you say so.

Do you see all reasonable debates and arguments as 'venomous attacks'?
If you do, you need to get your head checked.
Especially since the most 'venomous' attack in this entire thread is yours. (With the possible post-yours of mine. I apologize.)

I'm not completely against synthetic guitars. I've already said that. I DO think that, in MOST circumstances, they do not sound as good as a real guitar will.
I think everyone in this thread has pretty much said exactly that (with a few n00b exceptions).
It wasn't right for you to ruin the polite discussion that was occuring by getting defensive and throwing insults around. (I mean, homosexual slurs? Come on!)

Please, at least have some evidence and/or reasoning for your preference, besides one-liners about the superiority of technology. That shit isn't doing anyone any good, nor is it making even half a point.

Wow, if music didn't have dynamics there would be no crescendos, no different levels of volumes, no accents, none of that. I guess none of that is as important as the melody? You're completely wrong on that, if there would no dynamics everything would be at the same level and you couldn't even hear the god damn melody you woud like to hear. But this topic isn't about that.

Its about VSTs vs a real guitar. You might say that its not important, but then again your argument fails. Because the people who are making the VSTs are trying to get them up to the state of where it sounds more human (and it never will, because VSTs can't replicate a song like a human being can. They can't find all of the "mistakes/imperfections", bend notes to sound like the original song). In fact all VSTs will do is end up giving a generic feel to every song that is created with one, because the there will be no difference in Tone (which almost all guitar players have, their own unique tone and feel).

At 3/5/09 08:24 PM, jarrydn wrote:

At 3/5/09 07:59 PM, Kor-Rune wrote: Well, it sounds far more organic, and to me, after awhile, completely digital vst guitars start to sound cold and harsh, no matter how much midtone you cram on there.

Fair enough. I however, am quite partial to the sound of a properly implemented Slayer patch. I think if you actually open up your mind to something new, instead of depending on what you already know and trust, you can do amazing things.

Sometimes something so human has flow, of notes ever so slightly off time, and the natural human velocity has power and kinetic feel to the music. If music was all completely square and perfect without dynamics, it would become boring and routine. Imperfections aren't necessarily flaws.

And the exact same can be held for the opposite. There are numerous styles of music where dynamics is not the main point of attention. And yes, most guitar based music is dynamic, but I've never read the rule book that says music HAS to be dynamic. If everyone continues to abide by their silly little rules, nothing will ever change. Also, I think if people focused more on writing a good melody and rhythm, dynamics would take a back seat.

Music doesn't have to be dynamic of course, but generally, because the guitar is such a mainstream instrument, everyone's heard one before in their life, and it's set in stone in their heads that a guitar shouldn't sound like that. So some simpler minds will not see it as an alternative and a new thing, but rather an attempt at emulation. And since they sound so different, most assume it's a failed attempt.

All I see in this thread is unnecessary venom and animosity towards the use of a VST, so I thought I'd join in on the fun.

We're people, not VSTs :(

Electronic VST guitars don't sound bad, they sound different.

And sure, a synthetic drumset CAN sound like a natural acoustic drumset when done right, but alot of the "real" guitarists on NG seem to make a bit of an oversight in that area. What's the point of potential, if people aren't even using it?

Yeah, I agree, most of these synthetic drum tracks people have don't really work toward a convincing acoustic drum kit, using one bass drum sound and a single velocity for double bass run throughs, which sounds absolutely robotic and annoying. Same goes for the hi hats and stuff. I'd probably expect it for a novice, but these big-wigs are doing it too, when I'm pretty sure they're capable of putting in the little extra effort.

I suppose then that you can argue that the Drumkit From Hell plugin is a bit pricey, but then that brings us full circle back to an often argued about facet of the virtual guitarist. A few people who use Slayer say that they can't afford a guitar, and then I see them get torn to shreds about how a guitar isn't very expensive! Well, I can tell you, a guitar and a basic recording interface costs a bit more than EZDrummer, for instance.

Yeah, that's true. A decent sounding guitar and recording equipment for it isn't cheap, I'm not arguing against that.

And even then, I've heard quite a few tracks using just the built in loops.

Yep. :(

Look, I don't even care about that. Music is music. It's a personal thing, and every song has it's place. But all the hypocrisy and ignorance in this thread cannot go unchecked. It saddens me to see so many jaded people ripping into a small portion of our community for what is essentially no reason.

Music certainly doesn't ever have to be anything ever, but to most people, they grow up with sorts of sounds that they anticipate from music, and when it's changed, I guess it just sounds off to them, and they deem it fake or bad. I dunno, I've only been in this music jig for like 2-3 years now. :(

At 3/5/09 08:38 PM, Nosferatu-of-Worms wrote: Wow, if music didn't have dynamics there would be no crescendos, no different levels of volumes, no accents, none of that. I guess none of that is as important as the melody?

As far as I'm aware, all of the above can be done using synthetic instruments.

Its about VSTs vs a real guitar. You might say that its not important, but then again your argument fails. Because the people who are making the VSTs are trying to get them up to the state of where it sounds more human (and it never will, because VSTs can't replicate a song like a human being can. They can't find all of the "mistakes/imperfections", bend notes to sound like the original song).

I don't really know what to say to this. I guess I wouldn't try and replicate a flamenco tune using a VST, but most other genres of music are well within reach of today's virtual instrument technology. To say that the plugins hitting the market now can't bend notes and introduce imperfections shows that you have a slight misunderstanding of the tools available to us.

In fact all VSTs will do is end up giving a generic feel to every song that is created with one, because the there will be no difference in Tone (which almost all guitar players have, their own unique tone and feel).

That's an incredibly big assumption.

At 3/5/09 08:36 PM, TwilightNecrosis wrote: (I mean, homosexual slurs? Come on!)

Please point out my homosexual slur, and I will humbly apologize.

All of it can be done using Synthetic instruments. And I know VSTs can bend and "create imperfections". Its not the fact they can do these things, its just that they will never match human qualities. Its like it bends too perfectly or the imperfections are too well placed. That's what makes it sound robotic.

And they will begin to sound generic, even with using effects (like chorus, flanger, and wah). Its because VSTs will all be like one Guitar player playing many different pieces. Guitar players all have their different feelings and approaches to playing guitar. A VST will never have that. Its not that they won't get better (because as with all technology, it always gets better). Its just that they will either replicate things to perfectly or it will always be missing something that keeps it from competing with human skill.

At 3/5/09 08:44 PM, Kor-Rune wrote: Music doesn't have to be dynamic of course, but generally, because the guitar is such a mainstream instrument, everyone's heard one before in their life, and it's set in stone in their heads that a guitar shouldn't sound like that. So some simpler minds will not see it as an alternative and a new thing, but rather an attempt at emulation. And since they sound so different, most assume it's a failed attempt.

I suppose this is what gets to me. It's not that anyone is simpler necessarily...I just can't see the reason for ripping into someone for doing something a little differently. And people can say that this was a civilized discussion until I turned up, but I've seen these kinds of discussions get pretty ugly in the past.

We're people, not VSTs :(

Fair call. My apologies.

Yeah, I agree, most of these synthetic drum tracks people have don't really work toward a convincing acoustic drum kit, using one bass drum sound and a single velocity for double bass run throughs, which sounds absolutely robotic and annoying. Same goes for the hi hats and stuff. I'd probably expect it for a novice, but these big-wigs are doing it too, when I'm pretty sure they're capable of putting in the little extra effort.

I think it would be much easier if we judged each others ability to write a pleasing tune, rather than how it was done, how long it took, or how much money had to be spent to get there :]

Yeah, that's true. A decent sounding guitar and recording equipment for it isn't cheap, I'm not arguing against that.

Oh I know you aren't, it's just an argument I see from time to time in conjunction with these sorts of topics.

Music certainly doesn't ever have to be anything ever, but to most people, they grow up with sorts of sounds that they anticipate from music, and when it's changed, I guess it just sounds off to them, and they deem it fake or bad.

And this is why I despair :(

At 3/5/09 08:57 PM, Nosferatu-of-Worms wrote: All of it can be done using Synthetic instruments. And I know VSTs can bend and "create imperfections". Its not the fact they can do these things, its just that they will never match human qualities. Its like it bends too perfectly or the imperfections are too well placed. That's what makes it sound robotic.

Be careful when you use words like "never", because you may one day have to eat your words.

Also, I don't understand how an imperfection can be too well placed. That doesn't even make sense, lol.

And they will begin to sound generic, even with using effects (like chorus, flanger, and wah). Its because VSTs will all be like one Guitar player playing many different pieces. Guitar players all have their different feelings and approaches to playing guitar. A VST will never have that. Its not that they won't get better (because as with all technology, it always gets better). Its just that they will either replicate things to perfectly or it will always be missing something that keeps it from competing with human skill.

I assume they will probably release a range of different VST/sample sets in the future, not just one.

And sure, a guitarist has many different feelings and approaches to playing a guitar. I know this. I've been playing guitar for...shit...probably 12 years now.

But as far as I'm aware, I don't have any strange personal techniques that radically alter the sound of my guitar, to the point that I, and only I can make that sound :P. I play an american kramer with one seymour duncan super distortion, into a PODxt, into a tube stack. I think you can probably make a guess as to what my tone is like.

Hint: it sounds like a million other high-gain guitarists out there :P

At 3/5/09 09:00 PM, jarrydn wrote: I suppose this is what gets to me. It's not that anyone is simpler necessarily...I just can't see the reason for ripping into someone for doing something a little differently. And people can say that this was a civilized discussion until I turned up, but I've seen these kinds of discussions get pretty ugly in the past.

It's most likely human nature. Guns N' Roses did something differently, and everyone is absolutely pissed that their album didn't sound like the previous ones. That's probably why Dragonforce, Nickelback, and AC/DC sell so well; they do the same thing over and over again, and people are pulled in, because they just don't like change. I personally love diversity, but my ears are like others when vst guitars are thrown into the mix, the sound of a vst guitar is just kind of off to me, just like someone might not like the twang of a sitar or the arrogant contoured sound of a trumpet.

But I thoroughly enjoy an emulated guitar on a keyboard when played smoothly, but even then,
it's got quite the human touch still, especially if it's velocity-sensitive with a pitch/modulation altering wheel.

yay opinions

At 3/4/09 10:49 PM, jarrydn wrote: Actually I will. If you can't see the benefits of this ever increasing amount of technology at our disposal, then you, my friend, are a dick.

I bet you also hate gays, think men are better than women, think weed shouldn't be legalized, and think that your sister is really hot.

This. These insults right here are the reason you're acting like a child and bringing nothing to the conversation.
Grow up and learn to respectfully disagree with people.

At 3/5/09 09:00 PM, jarrydn wrote: I suppose this is what gets to me. It's not that anyone is simpler necessarily...I just can't see the reason for ripping into someone for doing something a little differently. And people can say that this was a civilized discussion until I turned up, but I've seen these kinds of discussions get pretty ugly in the past.

Translation: "Oh no, a past Internet discussion about this subject got ugly, so I have to pre-emptively get all my insults in before the other guys start."
How mature.
As long as people keep this line of thinking alive, there will not be decent, polite discussions.

I think it would be much easier if we judged each others ability to write a pleasing tune, rather than how it was done, how long it took, or how much money had to be spent to get there :]

This is very true. If I listen to a submission with synth guitars, I do my best to ignore the tone and listen to what the overall vision was. However, I have noticed that if the guitar is just a Slayer preset with no depth/effort put into making it at least tolerable, the song itself almost always sucks as well.
Goes with the original reason most noobs use synth guitars: they don't know how to play.

Yeah, that's true. A decent sounding guitar and recording equipment for it isn't cheap, I'm not arguing against that.

Oh I know you aren't, it's just an argument I see from time to time in conjunction with these sorts of topics.

It's true that it certanly isn't cheap to record real guitar, but it's cheaper to buy what you need than to buy the 'Ministry of Rock' VST, which cost $1200 the last time I checked.
As one of my previous posts has stated, all my (guitar-specific) recording equipment has cost me somewhere in the neighborhood of $700. 200 for my guitar, 100 for a pickup, 150 for my USB interface, and the rest in cables/strings/other assorted items.
And all that is for real, tangible items that I can actually manipulate with my hands. Not software.

Music certainly doesn't ever have to be anything ever, but to most people, they grow up with sorts of sounds that they anticipate from music, and when it's changed, I guess it just sounds off to them, and they deem it fake or bad.

And this is why I despair :(

Translation: 'Aww, it's so sad that these pathetic people don't fully grasp the perfection and absolute beauty that is a fake guitar sound'.
Seriously, why would anyone even bother making a 'guitar synth VST' if they're not trying to emulate a real guitar?
The source material hasn't changed; the guitars I play bear striking resemblance to the ones built by Spanish luthiers in the 1600's.
What ancient software sets the precedent for FLSlayer?
Oh, that's right - it doesn't exist.

Sorry for DP.
Jarry - read your later replies. Thank you for starting to speak civilly and providing reasoning.
Not every vst vs. real guitar thread has to end in a flame war.

At 3/5/09 09:11 PM, Kor-Rune wrote:

yay opinions

Basically XD

At 3/5/09 09:24 PM, TwilightNecrosis wrote:

And this is why I despair :(

Translation: 'Aww, it's so sad that these pathetic people don't fully grasp the perfection and absolute beauty that is a fake guitar sound'.

Nope, nothing to do with the fake guitar sound...just what the lack of acceptance implies.

I am of the opinion that music knows no boundaries. If we keep boxing ourselves in, we're only going to continue to repeat history ;). I don't know, maybe for you this is a good thing, but I personally like to treat my ears to something different once in a while ;]

People probably think I'm a hippy or a loser, and maybe I am, but I dunno...it's much easier and fulfilling to not be judgmental all the time :)

Found that gay slur yet? ;)

At 3/5/09 09:55 PM, jarrydn wrote:

At 3/5/09 09:24 PM, TwilightNecrosis wrote:

And this is why I despair :(

Translation: 'Aww, it's so sad that these pathetic people don't fully grasp the perfection and absolute beauty that is a fake guitar sound'.

Nope, nothing to do with the fake guitar sound...just what the lack of acceptance implies.

I am of the opinion that music knows no boundaries. If we keep boxing ourselves in, we're only going to continue to repeat history ;). I don't know, maybe for you this is a good thing, but I personally like to treat my ears to something different once in a while ;]

People probably think I'm a hippy or a loser, and maybe I am, but I dunno...it's much easier and fulfilling to not be judgmental all the time :)

Found that gay slur yet? ;)

Seriously, do you read my posts? I pointed out your string of insults (including an only semi-offensive homosexuality slur, which you continue to use) in a previous post.

And I'll have you know that I 'treat my ears' to new things all the time. I've started getting to the point where I enjoy listening to electronica/IDM/whatever you want to call it. I can enjoy COUNTRY, for crying out loud.
So don't pull the 'oh, I'm so superior because my tastes are more varied than yours' card on me.
That won't fly.

And it's not that I don't ACCEPT synth guitars; they're somewhat of a necessary evil, in that the people who don't actually know how to play guitar and/or don't want to learn how, but still want to create music, use them to get their point across.
I completely understand that.
I've already said that when I listen to a synth-guitar submission, I try to listen to the song and not the (usually) awful guitar sound.
What I don't accept is that they are BETTER than a real, organic guitar performance.
I will absolutely give it to you that they're 'different'... but different isn't always a good thing.
It's like the difference between a Yugo and a Corvette. Sure, they both have doors and engines and headlights, etc... but what's the difference?

At 3/5/09 10:12 PM, TwilightNecrosis wrote: Seriously, do you read my posts? I pointed out your string of insults (including an only semi-offensive homosexuality slur, which you continue to use) in a previous post.

I literally have no idea what you are talking about. Please, quote the slur that I used, and that I am apparently continuing to use, and I will cease.

So don't pull the 'oh, I'm so superior because my tastes are more varied than yours' card on me.
That won't fly.

Maybe this is why I don't bother reading your posts? You're so desperate to "win" this argument that you have to actually resort to constructing complete bullshit, such as that.

What I don't accept is that they are BETTER than a real, organic guitar performance.

Sure, just as a real, organic guitar performance isn't better than a synthesized one. It's just different.

I will absolutely give it to you that they're 'different'... but different isn't always a good thing.

No it's not always a good thing. But it can be ;)

It's like the difference between a Yugo and a Corvette. Sure, they both have doors and engines and headlights, etc... but what's the difference?

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here :]

At 3/5/09 10:23 PM, jarrydn wrote: I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here :]

Yugo = VST guitars
Corvette = real guitars

Sure, if I wanted to drive a Yugo, there would be nothing stopping me.
Just like there's nothing stopping me from using synthesized guitars...
except the fact that I feel they are inferior to a real recording.
And yes, a Yugo will get you where you're going just like a Vette will... but the Vette is a lot more fun to drive, and looks a lot better doing it too.
Do you understand my metaphor now? =]

At 3/5/09 10:37 PM, TwilightNecrosis wrote: Sure, if I wanted to drive a Yugo, there would be nothing stopping me.
Just like there's nothing stopping me from using synthesized guitars...
except the fact that I feel they are inferior to a real recording.
And yes, a Yugo will get you where you're going just like a Vette will... but the Vette is a lot more fun to drive, and looks a lot better doing it too.
Do you understand my metaphor now? =]

I do. I thought that when you said "what's the difference" you were implying that there wasn't one. And that kind of lost me ;)

Well, either way, at least the Yugo has less of a chance of getting stolen, or keyed ;D

At 3/5/09 10:45 PM, jarrydn wrote:
I do. I thought that when you said "what's the difference" you were implying that there wasn't one. And that kind of lost me ;)

Well, either way, at least the Yugo has less of a chance of getting stolen, or keyed ;D

Yeah, but then you'd be DRIVING A YUGO. What sane person would do such a thing?

They violently explode when involved in rear-end collisions. =D

For real, man, I have mucho respect for you as an artist; I've reviewed a song or two of yours.
But I definitely didn't appreciate you coming in here and being a dick for no reason. Thanks for (kinda) making up for it, though, by explaining yourself.

An apology would be nice; I've already rendered one. =]

At 3/5/09 10:37 PM, TwilightNecrosis wrote: Yugo = VST guitars
Corvette = real guitars

What if you put a pro driver behind the wheel of a Yugo up against an inexperienced kid in the Corvette?

Hi Jarryd! I see you're stirring the pot a bit. heheh...

At 3/5/09 11:38 PM, LJCoffee wrote: Hi Jarryd! I see you're stirring the pot a bit. heheh...

Maybe...but not for no reason ;D

I swear I will never post in a thread like this again :P

At 3/5/09 11:38 PM, LJCoffee wrote:

At 3/5/09 10:37 PM, TwilightNecrosis wrote: Yugo = VST guitars
Corvette = real guitars

What if you put a pro driver behind the wheel of a Yugo up against an inexperienced kid in the Corvette?

Who said anything about a race? ;]
And come to think of it, my uncle told me about a rally race like that once... it was actually a Pinto, but he beat two different guys in hopped-up Vettes, because they couldn't drive for shit.

At 3/5/09 11:48 PM, jarrydn wrote: I swear I will never post in a thread like this again :P

Which is it:
I will never post in a thread like this again
or
I will never post in a thread like this again

lulz

At 3/5/09 11:56 PM, TwilightNecrosis wrote: Who said anything about a race? ;]

I thought the contest was sort of implied by the topic :)

I don't even know why I'm posting here - The only thing that I know for certain about the "real vs. vst" debate is that I don't know jack shit about either.

At 3/6/09 12:14 AM, LJCoffee wrote: I will never post in a thread like this again
or
I will never post in a thread like this again

Second one ;D