At 10/2/07 11:23 PM, tony4moroney wrote:
you cannot observe everything objectively, history doesn't work that way (as you should know). what the debate is about is how significant america's role was in WWII vs. the other allied nations and the soviet union.

Fine. Then what's your measurement of comparison? If you're debating the significance between the two and comparing, what are you using to measure that significance?

The question still stands, otherwise, you're making cake by just eyeballing how much of an ingredient you need.....worse yet, you're randomly choosing what ingredients you're using.

If you're going to measure significance, put it in a context, bracket your variables. Ie,
Russia's role was more important globally due to X, Y, and Z factors, being the factors that most directly affected world affairs post WWII.

US's role was more important scientifically due to X, Y, and Z factors, being the factors that most directly affected innovation.

Otherwise we're looking at another pointless WWII endless, moronic, NG "debate". You might as well argue who's army looked prettier if you're not going to define any measures or variables.....

(this is how you objectify history, write multiple vantage-points, or write "omniscient God" views of history. Because without some MEASURE of objectivity, History loses significance)

how can you quantify the significance of killing 100 000 people in comparison to assassinating a general for e.g?

By defining what your objective outlook is, defining the variables you use to show that significance, and explaining why the significance is important (to whatever audience you are addressing).

If I wanted to show the significance as it relates to a campaign, I would show how the loss of 100,000 men would affect said campaign, as compared to the loss of a general. I'd use previous examples where campaigns have lost generals but had low casualties to show that the death of a field general in a campaign was less significant than the loss of 100,000 troops.

If I wanted to show the significance between the two as it related to the war at large, their respective societies, morale, war costs, etc, I'd do the same, albeit with different points of argument and comparison.

there is no scientific measurement but what we can do is observe the outcomes and the role played in these events and what was critical to the successful outcomes of those campaigns, then we can make a determination on how/ if the u.s was the key to the allied success.

There's no measurement because you haven't MADE any yet. It's clear what you want to do, but you haven't bothered showing how you're going to get there. Read history or anthropology articles. They're very "scientific" when it comes to defining things.

A lot of them start off with sentences like "My goal is to show the relationship betwen X and Y by using A, B, and C, which relate to X and Y in the following ways, etc etc etc".

If you want to say the US was more important, go right ahead. But explain WHY they were more important, and make sure you explain why the points that make them more important are relevant and accurate.

At 10/2/07 08:31 AM, Kiril-Tupitsin wrote: AND ONLY SOVIET UNION took over Berlin by themselves!

The Battle of Berlin was probably the most worthless battle of the war. So many Germans and Soviets died for nothing, absolutely nothing. The Soviets could have barricaded and sieged the city into starvation and, eventually, capitulation without having to take the million something casualties they all took. And thats just the soldiers, forget the civilians.

They were just peasents though, its not like Stalin cared, they were expendable.

At 10/2/07 12:21 PM, Kiril-Tupitsin wrote:

At 10/2/07 10:09 AM, bcdemon wrote: The USA won ww2. All on their own. They had no help from anyone, and not one single soldier from a country other than the USA died in WW2. We, as a planet owe our freedom and ability to speak our native tongue to the great USA, they saved us all from speaking German and eating sauerkraut.

Right Cellardoor?

learn some history.

Learn to read sarcasm...Sheesh.

At 10/2/07 01:12 PM, Complete wrote: You know, so many UK and CA users want him to stop proving facts. But you guys fuel him to do it more.

I watch alot of MMA (Mixed Martial Arts), and the guy I like to see get beat up the most, are the guys like Cellardoor6. The ones who say stuff like "I am going to kick the other guys ass, rip him apart, make him wish he never got into the ring, he has no chance against me". And they are usually shit-kicked by the guy who says "I've been training hard, working on some knew techniques, and I think it will be a good fight". I don't mock cellardweller because he can prove his drivel now and then, I mock him because he is an egotistical fuckwad with no respect for anyone else but himself. What I wrote above, is exactly what Cellar would write if he were entrusted to write a history book on WW2.

He even stated it would be difficult without help but it is possible we could of won:

It's also possible that you could have been blown into oblivion. I don't see much point in speculating on what may have happened half a century ago, although Cellar does.

I like the fact that the Western European Allies had been fighting and dieing for some time before the US even decided it was a legitimate problem.

Yes the US had a significant role in turning the war, as did Russia, but only for the amount of Troops they both had. If it wasn't for The fact that the Western European Allies were not going to roll over and died there wouldn't have even been a War, and we would all be speaking German, as they would have easily created the A-Bomb before the US got their finger out of their arse.

IMO ofc.

Also, just adding that I agree with TimeTheGreat, the Battle of Britan was a huge victory for the Allies BEFORE America even came in.

At 10/2/07 08:31 AM, Kiril-Tupitsin wrote: You right about the allies witch sent tanks and etc to Russia, but who the one who fought and died during the battle? Who the one who get the shots and the deaths?
AND ONLY SOVIET UNION took over Berlin by themselves!

So? Berlin was not the only battle of the War. There was the US and UK that kicked Rommel out of N. Africa. There was the invasion of Sicily and operations in Italy that involved the US & UK. Then there was the invasion of Normandy and the US/UK advance from the West that broke the will of Hitler's Western front. All the while the US/UK were incurring "shots and deaths".

Then there was the war in the Pacific...the Soviet Union incurred very little losses in that (in fact they only fought against Japan for one day) theater...most of that was the US with help from the UK and Australia.

At 10/2/07 10:09 AM, bcdemon wrote: The USA won ww2. All on their own. They had no help from anyone, and not one single soldier from a country other than the USA died in WW2. We, as a planet owe our freedom and ability to speak our native tongue to the great USA, they saved us all from speaking German and eating sauerkraut.

Right Cellardoor?

Although it's very true that If the U.S. had not innervain the Allies would have lost, but know one thing the fighting was being done way before we came, and much of the allies and axis military power was batterd; allies taking most of the beating. I am not taking credit away from our U.S. WW2 vetrens cause they kicked they're butts, but with out the help of team work with the other ally countries, certain things like the D-day wouldn't be a stright victory. Much of D-day was a combine attack with other countries not only the U.S...So yes The U.S. was a very important part of the victory aginst the Axis, but We didn't win it alone.

I for one, simply think the third reich would have crumbled anyway, with or without US involvement.
hitler had no recources.

oh and havent read a +5 cellardoor post; youre still the most narrowminded chauvinistic bigot on the i-net (atleast youre #1 in something)

At 10/4/07 03:05 PM, Tomsan wrote:
oh and havent read a +5 cellardoor post; youre still the most narrowminded chauvinistic bigot on the i-net (atleast youre #1 in something)

Hmmm...

At 9/24/07 10:33 PM, LordJaric wrote: Dude the russians were not the only fucken country fighting in the war. Each country contributed to the war, so with that said it was the Allies that won the war. Besides the war ended with the droping of atomic bombs (from the USA) on Japan (I would of perfered to end it in some other means).

Operation Olympic would have been a total disaster for both sides. Not only that, the USSR would have made Japan another divided Germany (Berlin Wall). There's also the fact that the cities that were bombed had primary military facilities, so the US had no intentions on attacking civilian areas.

At 9/24/07 10:33 PM, LordJaric wrote: Dude the russians were not the only fucken country fighting in the war. Each country contributed to the war, so with that said it was the Allies that won the war. Besides the war ended with the droping of atomic bombs (from the USA) on Japan (I would of perfered to end it in some other means).

Wasn't Russia Part of the Allied forces?

From my opinion its for sure 100% russians(its a fucking fact), usa help a little bit
but the stupidest thing is that canadians saying that they did it
without they help the war wasnt over
if they were'nt opening the 2nd front in the end of 1945 no could defiet the nazis
so stupid that the history that teaching in canada is fucking WRONG
and i guess that the same is in usa..
so who realy won the was for you ?
-sorry for my grammer i am using esl-

I have a split opinion on this
The Soviet Union pushed the Nazis back to Berlin. They actually never had any aggresion toward Hitler until he invaded. The Nazis wouldn't have taken Russia anyway. Reason?
Napoleon invaded Russia. He got to Moscow. Had to turn back becuase of the cold and Russia's 'Scorched Earth' policy.
Hitler had the same reasons. Millions died in Stalingrad because of lack of food and the cold.
The Soviet Union did stand alone. They had little to no assistance.

The Canadians did help. They fought D-Day and all the way to Berlin. They didn't have the armies like us and Britain though.

However we provided Britain with aid. If we didn't Britain would have been defeated. We dropped the Atomic Bombs. I agree with that. The pacific was our theater. We got no help from anyone there.

Now the Nazis. I see the Holocaust. That was fucked up and disgusting. On the flipside the Germans had the first major rocket. The V-2. They built the ME- 262. (picture below). The Nazis were scientiffically advanced. If they didn't attack Russia prematurly they would have won WW2.

Canada, Britain nor America went "All the Way to Berlin". It was the Russians.

Switzerland, Cuba and Mexico: 0 military deaths, 100 civilian deaths and 0 Holocaust deaths each (with Sweden and Ireland marginally behind with 0, 200, 0) - none of which had any effect on the population of the country (as opposed to the 300 Mongolian deaths, which were 0.04% of their population).

At 10/5/07 08:36 PM, Musician wrote:

haha what? the war with japan almost exclusively with the US? maybe we're forgeting about the chinese. an estimated 15 to 22 million chinese died in the war with japan.

With most of the deaths from civilians massacred by the Japanese.

At 10/1/07 11:15 PM, Dash-Underscore-Dash wrote: I think you guys forgot the vital role of poland.

yea getting spanked first lol

Wow, not only reviving a stupid thread but IMO this is offensive to people in uniform. War is not a goddamn game, this whole thread makes it look like a goddamn sports game not an extension of politics that it is. I've seen people so goddamn lost in their nationalism that they called US soldiers pussies because apparently the Russians were braver (a retarded argument that doesn't make any sense). So please people shut the fuck up, if you care about what happened in the war in 2012 then you're just speaking with your nationalist ego no matter what country you're from.

At 3 hours ago, Warforger wrote: So please people shut the fuck up, if you care about what happened in the war in 2012 then you're just speaking with your nationalist ego no matter what country you're from.

okay man jeez don't get your panties in knot, my bad

At 1 hour ago, Greggg586 wrote:

At 3 hours ago, Warforger wrote: So please people shut the fuck up, if you care about what happened in the war in 2012 then you're just speaking with your nationalist ego no matter what country you're from.

okay man jeez don't get your panties in knot, my bad

Well you DID necro a five year old thread just to post a one sentence reply.

The Soviet Union, the west gained the eastern territories of Austro-Hungary, Germany and the principalities of the Ottoman empire, after ww2 they lost their eastern european gains to the Soviet Union and later colonial uprisings and independence erupted in their Ottoman gains.

At 3/24/12 04:33 AM, Famas wrote:
Well you DID necro a five year old thread just to post a one sentence reply.

lol I know I know I'm so horrible, but it was too easy

The three main countries who were on the Allied side were the United States, Russia, and the United Kingdom. I heard that afterwards, there were plans to help rebuild the destruction in the UK. Russia was kind of ignored because it was no longer an ally. I think the USA probably won it the most, because of the three main allies, they were the ones who were least invaded. There was the attack on Pearl Harbor, but Hawaii wasn't a state at the time, nor was it during the actual war.

Really, I can't understand why people are still arguing over who won WW2, because everyone has to waive their dicks around about how many troops one country sent in or who did what. Last time I checked, the Allies won, and if you want to get into specifics, well, here ya go.

Western Front {Europe}: Early on, it was a war of wills between Britain and Nazi Germany, which the Brits ultimately "won". After the battle of Britain, Hitler went to invade Russia, which got them involved in the war, and after a shitload of fighting, the Russians got the upper hand and were the first to get to Berlin. I guess you can say that Britain and Russia won the Western Front, with a rather helpful assist to the Americans, starting with the North African front.

Eastern Front {Asia}: The vast majority of the credit has to go to the Americans, because while the rest of the allies declared war on Japan at certain times during the war, only America and Japan were the main combatants in the Pacific, and everyone else only played a small part. I think we all know what happens from there.

WW2 was largely a production war. Whatever technological advancements that the Germans or even the Japanese had against the Allies were negated by America's production of tanks, boats and what have you, {and to a smaller extent Britain's and Russia's as well.} The nation that landed the proverbial final deathblow on the Axis isn't as important as the sum total of the war effort by the Allies.

Bankers won.

PLease forgive me for restarting this stupid forum. we need to blam it to death

At 9/25/07 08:51 PM, SolInvictus wrote:

rules for fighting Russia:
#1; never, under any circumstances, enter a conflict against Russia.
#2; never attack Russia during the winter.
#3; never attack Russia if there is the possibility you will be fighting until winter comes.
#4; never, under any circumstances, enter a conflict against Russia.

The Afghan Mujaheddin did......and handed the Rooskies their asses.

"Without American production the United Nations could never have won the war." - Joseph Stalin

At 4/6/12 11:18 AM, TucoM wrote:

At 9/25/07 08:51 PM, SolInvictus wrote:

rules for fighting Russia:
#1; never, under any circumstances, enter a conflict against Russia.
#2; never attack Russia during the winter.
#3; never attack Russia if there is the possibility you will be fighting until winter comes.
#4; never, under any circumstances, enter a conflict against Russia.

The Afghan Mujaheddin did......and handed the Rooskies their asses

In that war, we lost tens of thousands of war, while spirits (as they called our soldiers) Millions
P.s. It is also possible to be said about the U.S. military.

At 4/6/12 11:32 AM, TucoM wrote: "Without American production the United Nations could never have won the war." - Joseph Stalin

And then he goes and causes the Cold War after already killing millions of his own.

Well, I guess he was right about something.

Anyway, I think it's best to say the USA, UK, and Russia were the most important Allied members. I'm guessing the UK because they were in the war for the longest. Russia and the USA joined in 1941.

At 3/27/12 06:09 AM, ClickToPlay wrote: Bankers won.

;;;
They sure did, so did the big business owners who owned the war machine/munitions factories.
THey didn't care which side bought from them !Did you know that Ford ,GM and others sued the USA at the end of WW2 for bombing their plants in Germany/Europe during the war ? & they won ! ! ! ! ! The American taxpayer payed them millions in damage costs . how fucking sick is that ?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/02/04/p/05_kil ling.html