Hey, trance/DnB artists..

[Seriana]

So I've been listening to trance from random and various artists for several years now.
But I still can't grasp the simple essential concept of the elements of trance.

I can vaguely assume that trance is supposedly 3/4 step, from what I'm hearing.
To me, it seems all random, hi hat rushes at random times, mostly just simple arps in a repeated sequence is all I can definately pick out.
So, how should I go about with the unspoken given essentials needed for a simple trance song?

Drum and Bass. Really simple, able to make a song with only a drumkit and a bass layer.
But I still can't get it. asdfgh.

[LJCoffee]

At 2/16/07 03:43 PM, DragonsGrief wrote: I can vaguely assume that trance is supposedly 3/4 step

Keep in mind that I know absolutely nothing - but...
Rarely 3/4 - it's almost always 4/4 although triplets are common and the 3 beat delay is almost mandatory at some point in the song.

To me, it seems all random, hi hat rushes at random times, mostly just simple arps in a repeated sequence is all I can definately pick out.

I would say that it's not random at all - in fact it's usually very predicatable - I think that's why it's so appealing to some people.

So, how should I go about with the unspoken given essentials needed for a simple trance song?

Apparently you'll need to find a sample of a crowd cheering - throw that behind a steady 4x4 thump thump thump thump and you're all good... -_- A few female vox "ooooh's" and "aaah's" will also help.

Drum and Bass. Really simple, able to make a song with only a drumkit and a bass layer.
But I still can't get it. asdfgh.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with the first part - I would say that DnB is anything but simple. I might even go as far as to say that it's a much technically "tighter" genre than others. I might say that... Then again I might be completely wrong too.

As far as not "getting it" - do you mean that you just can't seem to make good DnB or do you mean that you don't understand the appeal?

I know this post didn't really answer any of your questions but I figured I'd at least say something - nobody else has... And to think, there are so many trance "producers" here too - you'd think that they would have all jumped on the opportunity to show you how knowledgable and uber-skilled that they all are...

Meh, I guess they're all too busy finding samples of cheering crowds to help.

;)

[bogman247]

na ive never used any "crowd cheering samples" in any of my songs.... sounds like a kinda cheap thing to do.

And to think, there are so many dnb "producers" here too - you'd think that they would have all jumped on the opportunity to show you how knowledgable and uber-skilled that they all are...

Meh, I guess they're all too busy blatently ripping samples off the amen break to help :P

[PERVOK]

LJ already gave you a lick or two, and I never read his post, so if I repeat anything... just ignore it.

At 2/16/07 03:43 PM, DragonsGrief wrote: So I've been listening to trance from random and various artists for several years now.
But I still can't grasp the simple essential concept of the elements of trance.

Trance is painfully simple, but it can cause some bad habits in music creation :(

I can vaguely assume that trance is supposedly 3/4 step, from what I'm hearing.

Nope, 4/4. If you could successfully write a trance song in 3/4 though, you'd be doing a great job.

To me, it seems all random, hi hat rushes at random times, mostly just simple arps in a repeated sequence is all I can definately pick out.

Its not random times, I can assure you. Instead of simply listening to the sounds, listen to the arrangment. When a beat breaks in, its generally 2 or 4 bars ahead of the upcoming 8 or 16 bar verse. Break downs are all timed, and those hi hat rushes add a lot of "backround noise", which is almost nearly essential in trance music. Trance/dance are such empty genres, that we have to rely on random percussion sounds to reinforce melodies and make the song sound more than just a bassline and a melody...

So, how should I go about with the unspoken given essentials needed for a simple trance song?

You said you've been listening to it for a good several years, so you must have a good feel for how many artists choose to arrange their songs and program their synths. Heres my piece of advice: don't follow them. If you like a sound they have, screw around with what you think it is. You'll; most likely, come up with something completely different and unique. If you do this with all your synths/samples, you've got yourself a piece of YOUR trance, and not some other producer that creates cliche shit.

Drum and Bass. Really simple, able to make a song with only a drumkit and a bass layer.
But I still can't get it. asdfgh.

160-200 BPM. Again, the genre is empty, so go ahead and add some hi-ended cymbals and misc. percussion to fill that space. Melodies are scarce in DnB... high synths and everything else like that (like say, some cool glockenspiel sounds) are just there to add background noise. Focus on the drums and the bass, everything else should be secondary.
A challenge for most people is the drums. The snare should be a thick 500 Hz with hi ends so you don't just get a "thud", and the bass drum should be so painfully low it'll rattle your chest. 30 Hz-100 Hz.

I probably didn't help you at all.

[Seriana]

Thanks guys.
So anyway, I'm getting a little annoyed on how to begin and end the trance sections, and their breaks. I'm thinking of a way to perfectly time the song so it can flow smoothly right after I fade in the cheering after a reverse crash and some piano.

Is there anything else that I should know? O_O

[bogman247]

well i dont know what he means by "empty".... trance has more parts to it than most other genres, and most trance songs have 10+ parts to them, filling up nearly all the frequences before the percussion is even added...

For trance I would say start off with a thick and heavy pad. Give it that full sound it needs and sdd reverb to it which will give it more of a "filling the space" feel to it. It also depends on what type of trance you are going for but for the most part the synths are the same. One thing I can tell you is not to use an Arp as your lead. That has "Bad Idea" written all over it. Personally I love gated synths as the lead melodies lol. But for the arps make them 8th notes rather than 16th, I personally feel that it gives a much smoother feel and you can actually pick out the notes, but if you can make 16th notes sound good then by all means, go for it! Anyway, key to a lot of trance is reverb. Add a LOT of it and you will have the ambient/house mix which is.. "TRANCE"

Needless to say, trance beats are about as easy as they come. Basically a 4/4 beat with Open hi hat on 8th notes and a ride to go with the kicks... And sometimes a clap/snare on the 2nd and 4th beat. But all that is really needed is the kick, the hihats and ride and clap/snare is optional.

DnB I have no advice on because I simply cannot do it. I am absolutely terrible at it, all I know is you need a lot of cymbals, basic hip-hop beats, 160-200 bpm, and a bass, and very simple synths that sound good at the rediculous tempo lol.

Hope this helps at least a little bit =)

[PERVOK]

At 2/17/07 10:23 AM, Unheard-Echos wrote: For trance I would say start off with a thick and heavy pad. Give it that full sound it needs and sdd reverb to it which will give it more of a "filling the space" feel to it. It also depends on what type of trance you are going for but for the most part the synths are the same. One thing I can tell you is not to use an Arp as your lead. That has "Bad Idea" written all over it.

I stopped reading here. It doesn't matter what he uses as his main melody; if he likes the sound, he should use it.

[dj-padman1]

Hey blacknoise, I see in an earlier post in this thread about d'n'b you say that the bass drum should be reinforced in the 30-100 Hz region.

I'm a bit confused about this, every article and interview with pro producers that I have read have advocated rolling off their kick drum below 100 Hz to leave room for the bass, and in particular, the sub bass. Where do you propose the bass will sit under your arrangement?

Oh, and also, congrats on being able to hear below 50Hz, the lowest possible frequency a human is capable of hearing. :P Even 50-80hz is well nigh inaudible, but boosting here can add weight to the sub-bass and give it presence. Dont you want your kick drum to be prominent and cut through in a d'n'b track? How do you do that by boosting inaudible frequencies?

I'd really love to know the truth, so if you can educate me, it would be cool!

[Rucklo]

At 2/17/07 11:02 AM, dj-padman1 wrote: Hey blacknoise, I see in an earlier post in this thread about d'n'b you say that the bass drum should be reinforced in the 30-100 Hz region.

I'm a bit confused about this, every article and interview with pro producers that I have read have advocated rolling off their kick drum below 100 Hz to leave room for the bass, and in particular, the sub bass. Where do you propose the bass will sit under your arrangement?

It´s fully possible to have bass and bassdrum at the same (low) frequencies, just ont play them at the same time. I wouldn´t recommend it though. Also, you can very well have a bassdrum sitting comfortable at say 60Hz, and a subbass at 40Hz, just make a cut in the respective samples, to make a "frequencie puzzle".

Obviously it various what style of music you´re making. Alot of styles will want the lowest rumble away, some may even roll off at 100Hz (even though that should take away the "thump" from most bassdrums...). I´ve tried out keeping a subbass at around 40Hz and a bassdrum at 60Hz, for a drum n bass song.
It´s important to understand that the characteristics of a bassdrum does not lie at the low end though, alot of drums tend to have characteristics at around 1kHz, but of course this differ alot.

Oh, and also, congrats on being able to hear below 50Hz, the lowest possible frequency a human is capable of hearing. :P Even 50-80hz is well nigh inaudible, but boosting here can add weight to the sub-bass and give it presence. Dont you want your kick drum to be prominent and cut through in a d'n'b track? How do you do that by boosting inaudible frequencies?

What pro producer article have you read anyway? Human ear is capable of hearing from 20Hz-20kHz (some say they hear even louder). Usually the high-end gets worse with age. I´ve tested myself at school, and I hear 19.5kHz.
The bass at the lowest frequencies is difficult to hear what note is playing. If you can´t hear below 50Hz that´s most lilkey due to your speakers.

Also, human ear is sensitive differently at different frequencies AND at different volumes. The very lowest bass yo uwon´t be able to hear at 40dB, but at 110dB you can hear it. Ear is most sensitive at around 3kHz (where human speach is at) and the very highest end is also very difficult to hear (when i tested myself i had to max the volume to actually hear 19.5kHz).

I'd really love to know the truth, so if you can educate me, it would be cool!

I don´t know if you were being sarcastic, but whatever. ^^

[PERVOK]

Rucklo already replied to you, but I'd like to make a fool of myself :)

At 2/17/07 11:02 AM, dj-padman1 wrote: Hey blacknoise, I see in an earlier post in this thread about d'n'b you say that the bass drum should be reinforced in the 30-100 Hz region.

So you can get the true bass tone out of the kick.

I'm a bit confused about this, every article and interview with pro producers that I have read have advocated rolling off their kick drum below 100 Hz to leave room for the bass, and in particular, the sub bass. Where do you propose the bass will sit under your arrangement?

The bass sits not on the same rythym as the kick. So, when the kick hits, the bass either plays at a 150-200 Hz or it doesn't play at all.

Oh, and also, congrats on being able to hear below 50Hz, the lowest possible frequency a human is capable of hearing. :P Even 50-80hz is well nigh inaudible, but boosting here can add weight to the sub-bass and give it presence. Dont you want your kick drum to be prominent and cut through in a d'n'b track? How do you do that by boosting inaudible frequencies?

Subs tell me otherwise, padman. When I listen to a low 30-50 Hz kick/bassline, it rumbles the hell outta my seat.

I'd really love to know the truth, so if you can educate me, it would be cool!

Bleh, I tried :(

[Seriana]

Ok guys, I got the general idea of needing the "thump" feeling.
I'm using a pattern of Kick, HiHat, Kick+Clap, HiHat, repeat.

So, should any strings be necessary? I'm trying to squeeze it in there, but it completely throws off the feeling I made with the said kick hat clap pattern.

Keeping the tempo around 100, maybe automate it a bit higher right at the hat rush and back because the step pattern won't let me put that many hats together.

I'm using a lead from TS404 instead of the strings, sort of patching it together with the bassline if necessary.

Not sure how a piano would fit into this, but I'll find a way.

Also, because FL Studio 6 is a bastard and won't let me freely slide my patterns/clips around, it snaps to the edges of the grid, I can't time the reverse crashes right. How do I change this? I can't find it in options. I'm considering buying Reason for this, just for it.

Having problems finding the "ooh" and "aah" and the cheering samples.

This tentacle buttrapes techno.

[PERVOK]

Dragonsgrief, post a sample of the work that you are talking about on a hosting website so we can help more indepth instead of just feeling around in the dark.

[Seriana]

At 2/17/07 03:46 PM, BLACKNOISE wrote: Dragonsgrief, post a sample of the work that you are talking about on a hosting website so we can help more indepth instead of just feeling around in the dark.

Sure. This is FL Studio 6, btw. Not too proud of it yet, trying to get a feel for how it should sound.

IE is being a dick for me and it won't upload, so do you mind if I get it up tomorrow or Monday?

[Glib]

Try listening to subbass on iPod headphones. It's fucking madness.

[LJCoffee]

At 2/17/07 03:42 PM, DragonsGrief wrote: Having problems finding the "ooh" and "aah" and the cheering samples.

Heheh - I was only screwing around but I'm sure you know that - I'm just poking fun at the stereotypical techno that a lot of NG peeps pump out.

I'm posting links to some great tutorials for you :

Trance MasterClass part 1 of 3 6.4MB
Trance 1 of 3 tutorial files 2.5MB
Trance MasterClass part 2 of 3 6.1MB
Trance 2 of 3 tutorial files 3MB
Trance MasterClass part 3 of 3 5.6MB
Trance 3 of 3 tutorial files 50.2MB

I hope that helps you a little - same goes for the rest of these guys too.

At 2/17/07 11:33 AM, Rucklo wrote:

What pro producer article have you read anyway? Human ear is capable of hearing from 20Hz-20kHz (some say they hear even louder). Usually the high-end gets worse with age. I´ve tested myself at school, and I hear 19.5kHz.

I was able to hear up to 22 kHz. for the highest frequency I could hear and 20 is supposed to be the limit. I think that that is probably just more of an average for people, rather than proven fact.

[Envy]

At 2/17/07 03:42 PM, DragonsGrief wrote:

Also, because FL Studio 6 is a bastard and won't let me freely slide my patterns/clips around, it snaps to the edges of the grid, I can't time the reverse crashes right. How do I change this? I can't find it in options. I'm considering buying Reason for this, just for it.

Don't go and make a silly mistake like that... On top of the playlist there should be a little dropdown box that says "snap to ___" You probably have it set on cell or line... Set it to NONE, and you can freely set the pattern anywhere XD. Hopefully this will solve your little problem.

[Envy]

sorry its not ontop of the playlist, (depending on where you have your playlist) Its on the toolbar on the bottom of the top right (bottom of top LAWL)

[Seriana]

Thanks Envy, I found it.

Hey Zenon, or BlackNoise, or whatever you go by these days -
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=RGAQ5MSC

I work backwards.

[Envy]

Is it just me or is it just drums in that song, randomly placed? It could just be something I did wrong, but all i see is drum patterns...

[Seriana]

At 2/18/07 07:38 PM, Envy wrote: Is it just me or is it just drums in that song, randomly placed? It could just be something I did wrong, but all i see is drum patterns...

I barely started. Like I said, I work backwards.

[Envy]

Oh okay, so you already know where you're gonna have your drums? Weird, Drums is usually the LAST thing i do (Oh but you work backwards, thats right. Now it makes sense) But still, I dont know how you can work backwards like that, We cant really help you without a basic melody or some notes in general... The drums sound pretty... basic, but yknow most do if you dont have something on top of them... Yknow what i mean?

[AlexanderZero]

At 2/16/07 03:43 PM, DragonsGrief wrote: So I've been listening to trance from random and various artists for several years now.
But I still can't grasp the simple essential concept of the elements of trance.

I can vaguely assume that trance is supposedly 3/4 step, from what I'm hearing.
To me, it seems all random, hi hat rushes at random times, mostly just simple arps in a repeated sequence is all I can definately pick out.
So, how should I go about with the unspoken given essentials needed for a simple trance song?

Drum and Bass. Really simple, able to make a song with only a drumkit and a bass layer.
But I still can't get it. asdfgh.

I wont claim to be a master of trance, but it's always in 4/4 time, not 3/4.

Hi Hats are used often during lead ins, but also at the climax. Most trance songs start with a long intro that slowly builds up to a climax. Trance is very repetitive, that's why they call it trance :D

At 2/19/07 01:01 AM, AlexanderZero wrote:

Most trance songs start with a long intro that slowly builds up to a climax. Trance is very repetitive, that's why they call it trance :D

This guy speaks the truth. And remember DragonsGrief, repetition... Is your friend =)