At 3/16/05 11:17 AM, WadeFulp wrote: I want to wait for Liljim's thoughts before I go any futher, but I do want to clarify something.

I do not think all stats are stupid! I think all the stats we provide our users in their profiles, portal view pages, our user section with lists, etc, are GREAT! I was responsible for the idea behind many of them! Especially the blam/save point system with ranks, sticker stat, whistle level, etc.

Well, I thank you very much for saying that, Wade. I do realise you're responsible for many of the systems some of us take for granted, but those of us who love NG stats are the ones GUARANTEED to never take them for granted. So you should be happy about that, if nothing else. #;-}>

When I said stupid stats, maybe I was being to general. I was referring to some of the things certain people were listing. Like how many posts to the forums an hour, etc. Things that really aren't important. Sure they are cool to know, but if they are going to put strain on our servers it isn't cool.

Gotcha. It's only natural for people to be curious about more and more than what is already given to us, though. And to rank things that aren't ranked (right now, only b/p and exp are ranked in our profiles). Now... in the past, all of us listmakers simply opened profiles. Many of them, but only as quickly as we are able to with our eyes, fingers, and computers' speeds. And thus, NG wasn't affected any more than it is by the hundreds of people opening profiles all the time from the BBS or portal or top 50 lists.

But the advent of a program to HELP us with these tasks HAS certainly made us aware/cautious/concerned. Trust us, it didn't take your posts in this thread to let us know that they might be having an impact, and it was CONCERN over this, as ShittyKitty has said in this thread now, that led SK to limit access to his program to only a select few... who I have listed before and SK has now officially listed (I left out one person, I think?).

And, of course, as I've said like three times in this thread now, it was the same issues that came up with liljim in mid January. He and I had a short e-mail conversation which I relayed to most of the people in this thread here on this forum. The concerns were never made to be IMMEDIATE and EMERGENCY-INDUCING in nature by liljim, though. And that is why a lot of people are shocked and taken aback by many of your posts from pages 1, 2, 3 of this topic... Because if liljim OR you OR Tom or Tim had said that we SHOULD stop, we all would have back in January!

(snip bandwidth vs database stuff)

I just feel the stats we provide should be what are important to people and that should be enough for them. However, I'm sure we can come up with some more stat lists over time. Like if people want to see the Top 500 vote power users maybe we can spit out a list like that on a regular basis, rather than limit it to 50 or 100. LilJim is very busy and has some things he would like to wrap up, so I hate to bother him with these things. Hopefully they won't be to hard for him to modify.

It might have been enough back when they were created, or even a year afterwards. But come on, Wade, the top 50 b/p list is over 2 years old now. Maybe closer to 3 years old? And the top 50 exp list is even older. There hasn't been a new top 50 list aside from the sticker list and the "most bookmarked artists" list in a LOoooooooooooooooooooong time. And those aren't stats that most of us are that interested in the listing of beyond a vague, shallow interest/curiosity. So it isn't really about what STATS exist on NG, it's more about how many LISTS of them there are. And how that hasn't really increased/changed so much in the past couple of years. People DO like new stuff, yanno. And sometimes it seems like the lists area/profiles are the only parts of NG that don't get any attention/changes nowadays.

liljim has known that MANY of us would have liked a top 50 Voting Power list (and more importantly, VP to be listed in ALL our profiles, just like b/p and exp are) for more than 2 years now. We understand that it's not a priority, and that's why none of us bitches at him too often. #;-}>

It's also why we started making our OWN unofficial lists. Captain_Bob started the user-run Voting Power lists... Newgrundling continued it... and now I've been running it for almost 1.5 years. It may not seem it to you, but it is now a long-running part of NG BBS history and has been viewed by hundreds and hundreds of users, most of whom found it either interesting or informative.

And it's all based upon Voting Power! Another stat that you gave to us. Another stat that pulls in so many hundreds of users to come to NG again... and to stay. And to come back. Again and again. And to care about their say on how flash in the portal should be ranked. And to care about the time invested in collecting experience and blams/protects.

It's all just numbers stored in a database server... but it's important to many of us. And it will be GREAT once liljim can get an official top 500 Voting Power list up, like you just referenced. I was just happy to be able to provide that service in the MEANTIME, you see?

Also I apologize if I over reacted, but Liljim is in Japan, Tom is on the road, and I'm sitting here watching the site error and then I get people emailing me about these scripts they have that are crawling our forums for data and I flipped because I don't have any other way to deal it than to flip out. :) I guess I should try asking nicely, but I guess I feel some of these people should realize their scripts could put a lot of load on our servers and shouldn't do it in the first place, like pieoncar.

I told the guy who made this topic exactly that (that liljim is away, Tom's away, etc. etc.), and that you're the only one around. This was obviously bad timing. Thanks for the apology, Wade. You flipping out/overreacting over things isn't as shocking as say liljim (or even moreso TOM! #;-}>) doing it, because you do it somewhat often... but it's still nice to read posts from you when you're calmer. :::nods:::

Again, Wade, thanks for the last two posts in here. They were full of info and free of conflict. Much appreciated.

At 3/18/05 08:19 PM, WadeFulp wrote: Sometimes we find people running scripts to increase their entry's total views, etc.

Seriously? That's just fucking sad.

At 3/19/05 09:01 AM, Denvish wrote:

At 3/18/05 08:19 PM, WadeFulp wrote: Sometimes we find people running scripts to increase their entry's total views, etc.

Seriously? That's just fucking sad.

WHats fucking sad is the fact that someof these fuckers won't be stopping after the threat posted by Wade. I would hate this matyter to come to the FBI (which I doubt it will), but it seems like people have been pushing the wrong buttons with the wrong people. As a huge fan of newgrounds for years, I would hate to see this site go because of the small percentage of people who come hjere just to see how much further they have moved along on the b/p list or any other tlist that exists out there. I wonder if there are other soultions, and i know that through this thread, there have been numerous attempts at coming to a conclusion, the problem is that not everyong is going to be happy in the end. Ridding the users of their lists will obviously create problems, but seriously, these little fucks will just ahve to realize that it is for the good of the site that they adore so much. Another thing I have been thinking about is other causes for the problem. What other aspects of this site (profiles, prtal, BBS, etc) currently are affecting this site negatively, are we going to have to come to some other type of compromise to get rid of another important part of newgrounds in order to maintain a decent speed of this site. Lately I have been getting errors only during the peak hours which is somehting i am sure is nothing new and truthfully it doesn't bother me that much, however, if the number of people continues to grow, and I am sure it has, Wade is going to CONTINUE to get bombarded with numerous emails complaining about the same shit. Thus, we need to come to a conclusion about how exactly we can solve this problem in order to maintain the site but still please the users. I wouldn't mind if the lists we no longer around, yet if they were, frquent updates wouldn't be necessary. People must understand that it takes time, patience, and continual commitment to a site in order to get high up on the lists. Heirgo, SK's list is a wonderful thing, but the problem is that the amount of users that are being included in the list seems to be far too many. I am not trying to bang on SK, but the thing is that the more included, the more time it takes to run and the slower this site is going to run, which is a problem. Added to the other scripts possibly running at the same time, it creates a huge problem that NG and it's users cannot and should not have to deal with. I hope that is liljim is able to come up with an idea to satisfy the small percentage of the people on this site and satisfy the others who could care less, a solution would be superb. PLease continue to post liljim, I would like to know more about which lists you will be making and where they will be posted, I wouldn't mind to check on my own stats every so often.

I check the listmaker's stuff casually, sometimes it's interesting enough. I know I'd like something in my profile that says "You are the xxx most powerful user on NG" or something similar, but there's no rush to see it happen for me. I just come here for the crack.

At 3/19/05 09:01 AM, Denvish wrote:

At 3/18/05 08:19 PM, WadeFulp wrote: Sometimes we find people running scripts to increase their entry's total views, etc.

Seriously? That's just fucking sad.

I'd imagine that just one of those auto-refresh tools, seeing how (IIRC) the number of views listed for a flash is the actual hits to that page, not how many times someone's actually viewed it...

At 3/19/05 06:38 PM, jonthomson wrote:

At 3/19/05 09:01 AM, Denvish wrote:

At 3/18/05 08:19 PM, WadeFulp wrote: Sometimes we find people running scripts to increase their entry's total views, etc.

Seriously? That's just fucking sad.

I'd imagine that just one of those auto-refresh tools, seeing how (IIRC) the number of views listed for a flash is the actual hits to that page, not how many times someone's actually viewed it...

it's undefinably easy to make something on that calibar. Most of you everyday Lollies can even do it! :O

At 3/19/05 05:47 PM, ThugNasty wrote: As a huge fan of newgrounds for years, I would hate to see this site go because of the small percentage of people who come hjere just to see how much further they have moved along on the b/p list or any other tlist that exists out there. I wonder if there are other soultions, and i know that through this thread, there have been numerous attempts at coming to a conclusion, the problem is that not everyong is going to be happy in the end. Ridding the users of their lists will obviously create problems, but seriously, these little fucks will just ahve to realize that it is for the good of the site that they adore so much.

First of all, NG isn't "going under" because of the lists discussed in this thread. I doubt it's going under because of pieoncar's BBS crawler, either, but I have no idea how that thing works, so I can't be positive of anything.

Secondly... HEY NOW! The little fucks? Do you realise that some of the list makers (myself, ramagi, jonthomson, RedCircle) are MODERATORS? We're not exactly noobs. Anyway, perhaps you didn't mean that statement to be directed like it sounded, but... whatever.

LISTS aren't the problem, the problem is apparently the AUTOMATED PROGRAMS. I just updated BOTH my lists today, by manually opening EVERY PROFILE I needed to see to get the data for the lists. This is how I, and all the other list makers, did our lists prior to August 20th or so, 2004, believe it or not.

From early 2003 till August 2004, we all made lists this (now) old-fashioned way, and NG wasn't hurt at all.

After we started making the lists MUCH easier and MUCH faster with the automated program SK only gave to 10 people and no others, NG did not immediately suffer any major problems. These problems that people are experiencing lately (and personally, I haven't seen a single error on the BBS, though I have seen a few profile errors like the good ol' days a few years ago)... simply didn't crop up until recently, and there's been no HUGE increase in the program's usage lately or anything, trust me on that.

People must understand that it takes time, patience, and continual commitment to a site in order to get high up on the lists. Heirgo, SK's list is a wonderful thing, but the problem is that the amount of users that are being included in the list seems to be far too many. I am not trying to bang on SK, but the thing is that the more included, the more time it takes to run and the slower this site is going to run, which is a problem. Added to the other scripts possibly running at the same time, it creates a huge problem that NG and it's users cannot and should not have to deal with. I hope that is liljim is able to come up with an idea to satisfy the small percentage of the people on this site and satisfy the others who could care less, a solution would be superb. PLease continue to post liljim, I would like to know more about which lists you will be making and where they will be posted, I wouldn't mind to check on my own stats every so often.

liljim isn't back yet.

A load balancer was going to be installed a couple weeks ago, but Tim's friend's wife went into labour early and the scheduled time for it to happen on a Sunday morning didn't work out. I suspect these problems could have something to do with that. But whatever. Time will tell.

SK's last update is today. And yes, you're right, he DOES update a ton of people. I think when I first saw how low his requirements were (200 exp, 100 b/p, or whatever), I was quite shocked and thought it was a little excessive. But we hadn't heard the things we've now heard from liljim and now Wade at that time, so...

Whatever, after today, the 20th, that won't be applicable any longer.

And I've killed off one of my lists (see sig for details) and severely crimped the other one (down from 180 to 30 people), and, as I already said, have returned to manual updating now.

So... yeah. Take that. #;-}>

At 3/19/05 06:31 PM, Professor_Rhythm wrote: I check the listmaker's stuff casually, sometimes it's interesting enough. I know I'd like something in my profile that says "You are the xxx most powerful user on NG" or something similar, but there's no rush to see it happen for me. I just come here for the crack.

By powerful, do you mean VOTING power? If so, VP rank has been mentioned as a possible improvement to the stats and stat rankings NG will offer once liljim has time to fix stuff up. So yes, no rush, but hopefully it will happen sooner or later.

For the first time in 2+ years now, though, there is no more "next update" of a user run VP list (Captain_Bob's, Newgrundling's, or myself... ALL MODS, again, BTW, ThugNasty).... it's going to be quite the void for awhile.

At 3/19/05 06:38 PM, jonthomson wrote:

At 3/19/05 09:01 AM, Denvish wrote:

At 3/18/05 08:19 PM, WadeFulp wrote: Sometimes we find people running scripts to increase their entry's total views, etc.

Seriously? That's just fucking sad.

I'd imagine that just one of those auto-refresh tools, seeing how (IIRC) the number of views listed for a flash is the actual hits to that page, not how many times someone's actually viewed it...

Sometime during 2004, liljim (or someone) changed it so that it simply refreshing the page doesn't do shit for the view total, actually. Now it DOES require a click of the watch/play link. At least, that's what I last recall hearing from liljim.

This is why view numbers are way down from what they used to be. I don't know if you remember, but before the 200 vote UJ change took place, back when it was 100 votes tops... some movies would have 1200 views before they got saved or blammed. That NEVER happens nowadays. I hardly ever see anything near 400 views now. That's simple evidence of the change in how the viewcounter works.

So, the script Wade is talking about, methinks, must be some sort of auto-link-clicker AND page-loader. Or somesuch.

At 3/20/05 12:43 AM, gfoxcook wrote: liljim isn't back yet.

So why are you still whining about it?

So... yeah. Take that. #;-}>

Would you like a tissue?

Jesus. What a read. I'm amazed I stayed awake. I have a question gfox. When you mentioned being a writer in your profile you were talking about repair manuals and such weren't you?

Well, this thread has certainly been an interesting read. The new characters remaining feature certainly pulled its weight here I bet ;)

Personally, I also like to know stats. I enjoy SK's lists, but mostly the top reviewers one. But anyways, I'd just like to make a view quick points.

1- Forgive us for being skeptical about your claim of these stat pages coming "soon" Wade, but Newgrounds' track record for being prompt about such things is rather sketchy. How long have we been staring at a grayed out "submit to collection" button?

2- Perhaps it would help to be a bit more specific on what exactly ARE liljim's priorities right now. By which I mean, what are these big, helpful, sitewide updates he's supposed to be working on?

3- It's been stated before, but I agree that some of your past comments were completely out of line. I may expect such reactions towards outsiders, or even possibly some stupid noobs, but never towards such respected regulars.

Anyways, those are just my thoughts. I hope we can get a nice sweeping update in the next month or so we be all can just be one big happy family again.

After reading this whole topic i've just realised how stupid alot of people on this site actually are.
Making these scripts and for what?! Is it really that important to you people to find out these stats? At the cost of a really good site being fucked up cause of you fucktards!

Then after the person who brings you the site the gives you so much joy tells you to stop you keep it going and for what? You know theres no fucking need for it, you just want to rebel against some kind of authority or something is it? Well if your that desperate go slap your Mam in the face or somthing you little bitches.

Another thing. Your forgetting that Wade brought you all this and you are doing damage to his hard work, like any normal human he got angry and called you fuckers like alot of you are, then you have to hang on every word he says saying it hurts your feelings or some shit. Bull shit ive seen you all constanly tear out of each other and take abuse and it didnt seem to bother you then but when Wade says it your all of a sudden going to cry! Sad, really really sad.

This rant was only aimed at a select few wankers, mostly D0GMA.

At 3/20/05 01:08 AM, ReconRebel wrote:

At 3/20/05 12:43 AM, gfoxcook wrote: liljim isn't back yet.

So why are you still whining about it?

If you think my posts in here have been WHINING, then... well, whatever, I can't help ya.

So... yeah. Take that. #;-}>

Would you like a tissue?

Dude, what the hell is your problem? ThugNasty had some good points, but he also called people making lists "LITTLE FUCKS."

For the past 2 years or so, you've enjoyed the hard work listmakers on this forum have done just so they and other people could ENJOY the fruits of that labour. You even had my current web pentalist linked to in your signature. But as soon as Wade makes his feelings on these matters clear, you abandon us? You say you don't care about stats anymore and you start bashing the people who do?

I ignored your earlier post in this thread, thinking that you were just a little spooked by Wade's posts... but now you attack me and accuse me of whining because I DEFENDED MY FUCKING SELF from some guy I've never even talked to on the site before? Is ThugNasty your new NG best friend or something?

Come on, Recon. Really.

What. The. Shit.

Jesus. What a read. I'm amazed I stayed awake. I have a question gfox. When you mentioned being a writer in your profile you were talking about repair manuals and such weren't you?

No one put a gun to your head and made you read my longassed posts in this thread. Yet you still forced yourself to read them? You need to reexamine why exactly you did that.

It's one thing not to chime in with Dogma and myself and try to defend the things most of us here on Wi/Ht? have enjoyed about NG for over 2 years, but... it is another to act like we're the enemy. What the hell happened to you?

At 3/20/05 09:18 AM, Garnoman wrote: After reading this whole topic i've just realised how stupid alot of people on this site actually are.
Making these scripts and for what?! Is it really that important to you people to find out these stats? At the cost of a really good site being fucked up cause of you fucktards!

Shut. the. fuck. up.

NO ONE DID SHIT THINKING IT WAS GOING TO "FUCK UP" NEWGROUNDS.

The last person who was callous and disregarded the warnings of other users that what he was doing was HARMFUL to NG goes by the name JesusCyborg, and a mere two weeks after the scandal over his program back in January 2004 (to help finish off the templist, and get NG from 100 votes UJ to 200 votes UJ), liljim was on friendly terms with him! So... jesus christ. I just wish the underinformed people in this thread weren't latching on to the angry posts by Wade and conveniently ignoring the LESS angry posts by Wade and MONTHS AND MONTHS OF REASONABLE, FRIENDLY POSTS BY LILJIM ABOUT THESE MATTERS.

What the hell is wrong with you all?

Then after the person who brings you the site the gives you so much joy tells you to stop you keep it going and for what? You know theres no fucking need for it, you just want to rebel against some kind of authority or something is it? Well if your that desperate go slap your Mam in the face or somthing you little bitches.

Several of the people who make/made lists on this site are MODERATORS, you fucking moron. Ask yourself a question: why would a mod need to "rebel against authority," seeing as how they're WORKING FOR THE ADMINS (aka AUTHORITY).

Another thing. Your forgetting that Wade brought you all this and you are doing damage to his hard work, like any normal human he got angry and called you fuckers like alot of you are, then you have to hang on every word he says saying it hurts your feelings or some shit. Bull shit ive seen you all constanly tear out of each other and take abuse and it didnt seem to bother you then but when Wade says it your all of a sudden going to cry! Sad, really really sad.

This rant was only aimed at a select few wankers, mostly D0GMA.

Oh. My. Fucking. God. That was one of the worst posts I've ever seen on this BBS. Stop sucking Wade's ass, do you think he'll make you a mod because you attacked the people he was pissed off at about 5 days ago? The only thing you've done with this CESSPOOL of a hateful post is get yourself banned. Enjoy.

At 3/20/05 09:18 AM, Garnoman wrote: Making these scripts and for what?! Is it really that important to you people to find out these stats? At the cost of a really good site being fucked up cause of you fucktards!

Hey, watch it, buddy. You're insulting a bunch of mods with that statement.

Then after the person who brings you the site the gives you so much joy tells you to stop you keep it going and for what?

Fuck you, dude. Apparently you didn't read shit, because everyone said they were STOPPING. So yeah, stick that in your pipe and smoke it, you "fucktard".

You know theres no fucking need for it, you just want to rebel against some kind of authority or something is it?

Quite the opposite, dingleberry. We listmakers have always maintained that if we were told to stop, we'd stop. But WE WEREN'T TOLD TO STOP.

Another thing. Your forgetting that Wade brought you all this and you are doing damage to his hard work, like any normal human he got angry and called you fuckers like alot of you are, then you have to hang on every word he says saying it hurts your feelings or some shit. Bull shit ive seen you all constanly tear out of each other and take abuse and it didnt seem to bother you then but when Wade says it your all of a sudden going to cry! Sad, really really sad.

Ever consider that Wade's an admin, and that anything he says carries a LOT more weight than other users? And who's crying here? I see no crying. I see complaining, I see counter-statements, but I see no crying. So, how about some STFU?

This rant was only aimed at a select few wankers, mostly D0GMA.

Then you should have said that in the beginning, because you made your entire statement appear to be aimed at every listmaker. As such, I'm leaving my post as-is.

At 3/20/05 09:18 AM, Garnoman wrote: -- A long post that you can go and read if you want, but I wont quote it there --

Hey, try to get your tongue out of Wade's ass for a second and may be you'll do less shit talk. Stats are actually a part of newgrounds that the Fulps (you know, the founders of ng) implanted themselves, so stop talking about things you don't know just to (try to) get some attention from the mods/admin/whatever. It DOES have its place on newgrounds.

------------

Ok, nobody meant to slow ng, some apparently did, we're not sure who and how exactly, but someone did it accidentaly, now the lists are closed and the scripts doesn't run anymore. So ... why did this topic got three extra pages of arguing? I thought the subject was closed ...

At 3/20/05 12:43 AM, gfoxcook wrote:

At 3/19/05 05:47 PM, ThugNasty wrote:

Secondly... HEY NOW! The little fucks? Do you realise that some of the list makers (myself, ramagi, jonthomson, RedCircle) are MODERATORS? We're not exactly noobs. Anyway, perhaps you didn't mean that statement to be directed like it sounded, but... whatever.
Sorry gfox I wasn't talking about the poeple who are creating these, I know you all are important and especially in my heart you are <3, no I am aiming it at the fucks who come on to look at the lists, the people who look at the lists to see how far they have moved up. No, I am not trying to slam on you guys and i understand you all take time and put a lot of effort into what you do and i would never try to desrespect that. I ahve been here for years and I would never be a bitch and try to go agaisnt the people who have been here just as long as I have and know way more than me. Noway , much respect coming from here, it is the people who act like a bunch of bitches and get on wades case for getting angry. He is just trying to do what is best for the site and he overreacted. People act like they have never gone crazy over little shit (not saying this is little shit but you get tyhe point). I am not here trying to call anybody stupid or less important, I am jsut saying that I think that some changes need to be made here in order for t5he site to funtion correctly and if that means losing all the lists, so fucking be it.

LISTS aren't the problem, the problem is apparently the AUTOMATED PROGRAMS. I just updated BOTH my lists today, by manually opening EVERY PROFILE I needed to see to get the data for the lists. This is how I, and all the other list makers, did our lists prior to August 20th or so, 2004, believe it or not.

That must take a lot of time, and I bet it makes things a lot more difficult but I am saying that through the running of the programs and scripts it is fucking shit up as wade clearly pointed out. I think that we need to just make simpler lists with less people on. If you give anyone the chance to be on the list, then there is no surprise, it is more difficult to get on a list of top 100 or so rather than top 5000 like SK's. Perhaps we wshould even have a damn list, just show it in our profiles and liljim can do the work for us!

From early 2003 till August 2004, we all made lists this (now) old-fashioned way, and NG wasn't hurt at all.

Exactly and thus is should be done more often this way!

After we started making the lists MUCH easier and MUCH faster with the automated program SK only gave to 10 people and no others, NG did not immediately suffer any major problems. These problems that people are experiencing lately (and personally, I haven't seen a single error on the BBS, though I have seen a few profile errors like the good ol' days a few years ago)... simply didn't crop up until recently, and there's been no HUGE increase in the program's usage lately or anything, trust me on that.

I have only been seeing these problwms recently but they are nothing major, just hit the refresh and it is all good. I don't get them all the time but I am finding them to frequent during peak hours (duh!). However, do you know of any other complications that would lead to thesite slowing down or numerous errors occuring?

People must understand that it takes time, patience, and continual commitment to a site in order to get high up on the lists. Heirgo, SK's list is a wonderful thing, but the problem is that the amount of users that are being included in the list seems to be far too many. I am not trying to bang on SK, but the thing is that the more included, the more time it takes to run and the slower this site is going to run, which is a problem. Added to the other scripts possibly running at the same time, it creates a huge problem that NG and it's users cannot and should not have to deal with. I hope that is liljim is able to come up with an idea to satisfy the small percentage of the people on this site and satisfy the others who could care less, a solution would be superb. PLease continue to post liljim, I would like to know more about which lists you will be making and where they will be posted, I wouldn't mind to check on my own stats every so often.

liljim isn't back yet.

When he is damnit!

SK's last update is today. And yes, you're right, he DOES update a ton of people. I think when I first saw how low his requirements were (200 exp, 100 b/p, or whatever), I was quite shocked and thought it was a little excessive. But we hadn't heard the things we've now heard from liljim and now Wade at that time, so...

Yes I understand that and I was shocked as well, towards the end of it's existance, well the soon to be end, they were stopping with police captains on the EGRL and I think it should have been cut back even further. Make people work to be on a list don't let them be on there with a petty 500 b/p points, that isn't shit!

And I've killed off one of my lists (see sig for details) and severely crimped the other one (down from 180 to 30 people), and, as I already said, have returned to manual updating now.

You are such a guy for being fo committed and cutting one of your lists. I truly admire your will power I know it must have taken a lot of inner strength. What else could be done on this site to help the problem with bandwidth though?

So... yeah. Take that. #;-}>:

Ouch! i_i I can only hear the line "it cuts like a knife" that hurts!

What a mess....

Whilst these stat threads and programs probably don't have as significant an impact on the servers as Wade may have first feared, it is not an illogical assumption on his part that they will have at least some impact on the site and on the servers.

Furthermore, anyone who thinks he was being irrational by reacting harshly to this thread need to ask themselves exactly why he reacted in that way - his interests are in keeping the site running well for the majority of Newgrounds visitors - not just a select few who like to collect stats. Before anyone lumps me into the people I'm talking about (having already mentioned that I enjoy reading through stats, too), let me point out that I never created any scripts to spider pages to cull those stats back when I suggested the idea and wasn't working for Newgrounds, even though I could have done.

Having had sparse contact with myself and Tom and seeing the site performing badly, then seeing a thread about scripts that spider all of this information, it was not unreasonable of Wade to react this way - at the time the thread was posted, I had only just gotten to Japan and, whilst I was reasonably confident of getting an internet connection to check e-mail over there, I was unsure and unable to tell Tom or Wade precisely what else I would be able to get done whilst there, or how long at a time I would be able to connect for. Knowing that, seeing this thread after having a few days' worth of errors, I don't think it was unfair of Wade to react as he did to the thread. It seems that many people here have just posted to have a pop at him rather than understand why he wrote what he wrote.

Those who're saying he was impatient and posted too early are the same people who aren't prepared to wait for stats pages to be created for them. There are differences in patience levels here - the uptime of the site is most important and any issues that cause downtime must be addressed immediately. The stats are just trivia (and can be waited upon). Without the site running, there are no stats.

As for taking a while to get things done - there are lots of projects in the works, that have been in the works for a long time. They take a backseat regularly, specifically due to; errors that crop up in the site (both database related and grammatical errors etc that get pointed out), people picking holes in systems that need to be fixed, long term scripts wherein problems are identified (or rather ways, in which the queries to the database in said scripts can be speeded up). I re-wrote large sections of four scripts that get hit regularly when I was in Japan alone. I've made significant changes to at least four files today, too.

These changes are typically transparent to the end user, so people are generally (through no fault of their own) ignorant of most work that goes on on the site. Because they see no physical changes to the appearance of the files they're accessing regularly, or because new features don't come thick and fast, they therefore (wrongly) assume that NOTHING is being done, when in fact quite the opposite is true. 85% of my working day consists of fixing/improving scripts that are already in use, with the remaining 5% and 10% dealing with e-mail and new content respectively.

We generally don't disclose what we're working on these days, because whenever we do, people are forever on our backs about when we're going to be releasing what we've said we're going to release. That's why I don't let on what I'm working on, because I don't want it to keep coming back on me when I have to drop certain projects to fix up other areas of the site. It might be frustrating for you guys to not know what's coming and when it's coming, but I can assure you it's far more frustrating having people continually pester as to why certain promised projects haven't been finished and going through the rigmarole of explaining exactly WHY those projects haven't yet been completed (which takes yet more time).

Wade and Tom know about most of the changes that I make to the files on the site (although I tend to bore them less with the daily miniscule changes that are made nowadays). They also know of all work in progress, so there's no real reason to challenge Wade on what he says with regard to my workload.

I'm not quite sure how relevant the blam/protect ranks list is or why it cropped up (although I know they did somewhere in this Metropolis of posts), but I'll quickly address that... That file was originally a placeholder from which I was to work from. It was created by Tom and Wade and was meant as a guide for me when setting up the blam/protect ranks system. It was later discovered by chance by a user who posted a link to it on the BBS. I changed some of the values in the system that eventually went live, which is why that list is (was) wrong with regard to the upper rankings. I guess Wade may have linked it up to the FAQ not having realised that some of the values there weren't accurate, so it's not his fault that the list wasn't accurate, it's mine.... However, I believe that that list is now up-to-date.

I'm going to cut this post short, given that I'm running out of characters and will move on in the next post.

With regard to the Load Balancer that Tim's working to have in place - that doesn't have as much to do with the database as it does to the webservers (they are all related, but when you get into all of that, things turn very complicated). Also, Tim makes no changes to server configuration on a production level until the changes have been tried and tested upon nodes on the cluster that aren't accessible to the general public.

Back on the subject of these stats scripts - it's difficult to quantify how much damage they actually do, given that there are, at any one time, a number of scripts that are being run across the site. Some which we know about, some which we don't, some which we would rather not have running, some which we would like to run. The best case of the latter that I can think of are search engine spiders.... It's (for obvious reasons) useful to have those bots regularly scouring the site, because (even though they use up resources on the site) it means that people searching for specific terms in said search engines/directories might come up with links to the site and find what they're looking for (the difference being with the search engine spiders over other automated scripts is that we have the option to turn the spiders away if we wanted to (naturally, we wouldn't ever want to do that)).

In terms of the stats scripts; (I'm repeating myself from earlier on in this thread here, but...) only a marginal number of people who pass through the site are interested in stats on any level. Over 15 million visit the site every month, generating around 300 million page visits in that time. The portal index page receives well over 200,000 hits per day and links directly to /portal/stats.html, yet for yesterday, just under 200 people clicked through to that page. Other links in the same area of the page generate into 10s of thousands of clickthroughs per day. That gives an indication of how many people who go through the Portal are interested in the statistics and is why Wade has been so blunt in this thread - keeping the site running well for the majority is what he's primarily interested in (and rightly so). If people were bummed that they didn't have the stats that they wanted in that page I linked (since it is very simple), I would expect to get e-mails about it regularly... But I don't.

All of this is not to say that we don't want to cater to the requests for more statistics, but it shouldn't take a mathematician to work out where our priorities should lie when you look at how many people are actually interested in the statistics compared with the sheer volume of people visiting the site.

Seizure_Dog is a prime example here, when it comes down to what we see regularly elsewhere on the forums and through e-mail - completely aside from the stats (in a stats related thread), he mentions the automated collections. There's a much more popular demand between users of the site for other features (and specifically the automated collections), yet every time I feel as though I'm getting somewhere with the automated collections (or any other new project), something else crops up with older scripts that I have to deal with, leading me off in a complete tangent from the automated collections and other new projects.

Anyway... Whichever way it's cut, ANY automated script (whether or not it's one we would like running) that runs exogenously ARE taking up resources, which could otherwise be distributed between regular users.

I guess I should just drop some of the planned projects for the time being, spend some time on making all the stats available, thus negating the need for third party scripts. That way, we can put this whole argument to bed, even if it does mean sacrificing the wishes of the majority of the users.

Let's not continue this thread with hard feelings. I hate there being a feeling of ill-will between users who obviously care about the site. There are other things to bash out bad temperament on - the assassin section can always do with more celebrity bashings and even Tom/Wade/Jim bashings (don't think I've fallen victim to an assassin flash... yet ;)).

At 3/20/05 07:48 PM, liljim wrote: (don't think I've fallen victim to an assassin flash... yet ;)).

Do I smell a challenge...?

Thanks for the posts James, as usual you clarified a lot of issues, and as usual you made us aware of the quantity of work going on that the average NG user isn't aware of. As I mentioned somewhere, I'll send you a copy of my grabber in case you ever want to test it out and see exactly how much effect it has on the site.

ah finally you post. OK LilJim. nice long post. I never ran the scripts and i won't. I hope most of you people now agree with me too. Oh and im working on a assasin on you right now......

At 3/20/05 08:10 PM, Denvish wrote:

At 3/20/05 07:48 PM, liljim wrote: (don't think I've fallen victim to an assassin flash... yet ;)).

Do I smell a challenge...?

He's just feeling a little masochistic! Maybe you're working too hard Jim :O

Thanks for that big 'behind-the-scenes' post, we're all more informed now :)

At 3/20/05 07:48 PM, liljim wrote: As for taking a while to get things done - there are lots of projects in the works, that have been in the works for a long time.

Perhaps you could use someone to help you (forgive me for not knowing what your official job title is)? These projects appear to be taking overly long, and since we apparently have the money to hire, ("we can now afford to play around a little!" -Tom) why not get a helping hand? The great thing about going from one to two is that it instantly doubles your productivity :)

The portal index page receives well over 200,000 hits per day and links directly to /portal/stats.html, yet for yesterday, just under 200 people clicked through to that page.

Not to debunk your example liljim, but I would say the reason for that is twofold.
1) The stats listed on that page hardly change. I took a quick look at it and it looks about the same as I saw it for the very first time.
2) The stats apply mostly to movies and artists and less to users themselves. The few that do include users are limited to only 10. People who want stats generally have to know how they stand, not someone else.

I think a better page to use as an example for comparision would be the User(s) pages.
The results probably wouldn't be too different though.

This is not to say I don't agree with you, I do, I'm just pointing out how your logic is slighty off (not off enough to really matter any, but still).

We generally don't disclose what we're working on these days, because whenever we do, people are forever on our backs about when we're going to be releasing what we've said we're going to release.

Understandable.

However, I believe that that list is now up-to-date.

That reminds me, there's a typo in the chat rules. #5

"5. No scripts maybe run that automatically post text in the chatroom, unless you are an OP."

Obviously that should be "may be". Minor, but hey.

Seizure_Dog is a prime example here, when it comes down to what we see regularly elsewhere on the forums and through e-mail - completely aside from the stats (in a stats related thread), he mentions the automated collections.

I'm still confused as to how that's planned to work. From my mental image it will either be too broad or too narrow. By which I mean we'll either have 10000 movies in a section such as "Funny", or have so many sections that it'll be a chore to wade through them (e.g. 500 collections for movies with songs by a certain artist, and most only have 1 or 2 per collection). Or maybe I'm thinking about it entirely wrong, but it seems that the system will need to be pretty precise in order to not get abused or turn to shit.

I guess I should just drop some of the planned projects for the time being, spend some time on making all the stats available, thus negating the need for third party scripts. That way, we can put this whole argument to bed, even if it does mean sacrificing the wishes of the majority of the users.

If it doesn't take long that may be a good idea...

the assassin section can always do with more celebrity bashings and even Tom/Wade/Jim bashings

You're right, we DO need more assassin games of NG people :D

(don't think I've fallen victim to an assassin flash... yet ;)).

I eagerly await blowing your head off in a Flash liljim ;)

Good. fucking. god.

I wouldn't have guessed stats would have caused such a fuss. I love the NGTL, and I hope it continues to run, but the attitudes I'm seeing in here are ridiculous. The scripts have stopped, and liljim is working on stats for us...

I'm not sure what's up with the errors. I'm not too keen on the whole web structure subject. From what I've gathered, the scripts overload the server? If this isn't the case, which I don't believe it is, then I'd like to see them continue.

You've got to keep in mind (Wade, liljim) that these scripts have been running much longer than the errors, so why was the site unaffected by them before? There's got to be something else...something just doesn't seem right about the scripts only affecting the site NOW and not before...

Oh yeah, liljim, can you hook me up with the link to the stat page that NG already has? Either I'm completely insane, or there isn't an easy way to get to it. Hope you didn't forget my idea either, remember our discussion about the review button disappearing once you've reviewed a submission to prevent you from typing up a huge review for nothing? Yeah...and some other ideas for the site....get on aim for once dude ;)

Wade.........you've ignored like 3 of my e-mails man :(

Oh shit, I completely forgot...

Wade, is there anyway you can tell me when I last missed a deposit? I know it's pretty useless information to know, but I've just been curious. As you can see, my signature message might be complete BS, because I think I may have missed one recently.

Not sure how handy that information is, or if you can even get it, but if you could, it'd be appreciated ;)

I also remembered another little site problem you might wanna look into. I noticed in the errors thread in general a lot of people were complaining about the post box. Sometimes things remain highlighed for no reason, or two cursors appear...strange shit like that. I'm not sure if it's my browser (firefox) or what...any ideas?

At 3/20/05 06:44 PM, ThugNasty wrote: Sorry gfox I wasn't talking about the poeple who are creating these, I know you all are important and especially in my heart you are <3, no I am aiming it at the fucks who come on to look at the lists, the people who look at the lists to see how far they have moved up. No, I am not trying to slam on you guys and i understand you all take time and put a lot of effort into what you do and i would never try to desrespect that.

No problemo. I wasn't all that upset by your post as you brought lots of valid and interesting points to the table, instead of just throwing around insults and such like that Garnoman jackass I banned later on on page 5... so trust me, that was already appreciated.

As for us... no, we're not important. But we don't deserve scorn and conclusion-jumping, that's all. I'm glad you weren't directing that at us after all, just on thoughtless list-fans. But I don't think there are all that many of those around here, so... it's not that big of a deal, anyway.

it is the people who act like a bunch of bitches and get on wades case for getting angry. He is just trying to do what is best for the site and he overreacted.

A lot of us didn't appreciate the way he at first reacted to some of us in here. That doesn't mean we don't listen to what he says or respect his opinions. It just means we'd prefer not to be threatened with legal action and treated as though we're as malicious as virus-making hackers, see?

I am jsut saying that I think that some changes need to be made here in order for t5he site to funtion correctly and if that means losing all the lists, so fucking be it.

Technically, yes. But there's nothing I can think of that means losing ALL the lists. I don't see, for instance, why NG would suddenly need to drop the top 50 exp or top 50 b/p lists. I doubt they have anywhere near as much traffic as the flash areas of the site, for one thing. And those are the CORE lists, really. Long-running, important lists. IMO, at least.

That must take a lot of time, and I bet it makes things a lot more difficult but I am saying that through the running of the programs and scripts it is fucking shit up as wade clearly pointed out. I think that we need to just make simpler lists with less people on. If you give anyone the chance to be on the list, then there is no surprise, it is more difficult to get on a list of top 100 or so rather than top 5000 like SK's. Perhaps we wshould even have a damn list, just show it in our profiles and liljim can do the work for us!

One of my lists was basically top 150-200, and the other one was top 500. I agree that there's such a thing as too much, and 5000+ is... too much. That's why I said I was shocked by the scope and breadth of SK's lists when he first debuted them. #;-}>

Now the top 500 list is kaput... and the top 150-200 is shrunken to top 30 (currently). So... that's that. Massive reduction in data I need to pull, so I can easily do it manually now, no need for the automated program anymore.

Exactly and thus is should be done more often this way!

It's being done that way again right now and from here on out. #;-}>

I have only been seeing these problwms recently but they are nothing major, just hit the refresh and it is all good. I don't get them all the time but I am finding them to frequent during peak hours (duh!). However, do you know of any other complications that would lead to thesite slowing down or numerous errors occuring?

The amazing amount of people who've been coming to NG over the past month due, in part, to Numa Numa Dance, of course.

There's no other major difference in NG right now versus NG 5 months ago, say. Numa Numa was uploaded in December... and by February, Numa Numa fever was all over the damned net. And NG has certainly been helped by that in terms of visibility and popularity, but it obviously can be taxing on the servers.

When he is damnit!

I just meant that while liljim DID post in here a few days ago, he couldn't turn his full attention towards this thread. Obviously, now he has.

You are such a guy for being fo committed and cutting one of your lists. I truly admire your will power I know it must have taken a lot of inner strength. What else could be done on this site to help the problem with bandwidth though?

There's nothing committed about cutting a list, it takes commitment to DO the list to begin with, and keep doing it regularly and accurately. But maybe you meant "committed to NG's health" or something. Anywho.

What would help the site? Well... Like I said, not having Numa Numa fever sweep the web would help out with NG's bandwidth/database, but that would also mean less NG visitors, so... you win and you lose... or you don't win AND don't lose.... and that's a loss in itself. There is no perfect solution to it.

Ouch! i_i I can only hear the line "it cuts like a knife" that hurts!

That was a playful non-serious "take that," BTW, which Recon didn't seem to understand. O_o

At 3/20/05 05:37 PM, gfoxclock wrote: If you think my posts in here have been WHINING, then... well, whatever, I can't help ya.

I don't care how many words you might toss into your long-winded posts to justify your position. It still sounds like whining to me.

But as soon as Wade makes his feelings on these matters clear, you abandon us?

Cut me some slack pal. If you want to know where my loyalty stands try checking out page one of the LUL. I was helping people in this forum long before the lists were running so I'd appreciate it if you'd lay off the morality crap.

You say you don't care about stats anymore and you start bashing the people who do?

Hey look what I found on page one!

At 3/13/05 11:17 PM, ReconRebel wrote: I admit I'll miss some of the updates but it's for the good of Newgrounds like Wade said.

It's one thing not to chime in with Dogma and myself and try to defend the things most of us here on Wi/Ht? have enjoyed about NG for over 2 years, but... it is another to act like we're the enemy.

Wade had every right to be upset about the data programs being run and yet you still egged him on with your posts. If this site didn't exist this discussion about stats wouldn't be happening and I wouldn't be wasting my time talking to you.

Thanks for taking the time to give us a detailed explanation liljim. I was wondering when your post was going to show up. Hope you had fun in Japan. You should get some sleep and shake off that jet lag. I know you're tired ;-)

At 3/20/05 07:39 PM, liljim wrote: What a mess....

It's a mixture of heated listfans/listmakers getting upset... and a bunch of people I've never seen posting around here voicing their list-bashing opinions and some constructive points. Mostly, IMO, in an attempt to suck up to Wade, but whatever. #;-}>

Whilst these stat threads and programs probably don't have as significant an impact on the servers as Wade may have first feared, it is not an illogical assumption on his part that they will have at least some impact on the site and on the servers.

That's all we wanted to hear... because we are now being blamed by a lot of regular users for shit that we're not responsible for. At least, smalltime program users such as myself, ramagi, etc.

Now, me saying that doesn't mean we'll all immediately restart using the programs.

I, personally, am not going to ever use it again unless you specifically say to me "gfox, you can use it, but only at such-and-such time and only in chunks of 10-20 profiles at a time" or something like that.

I'm back to pulling profiles manually. By hand. One at a time. Slowly. Ever so slowly. #;-}> It's the good old-fashioned method. Hands-on. Makes me nostalgic.

Furthermore, anyone who thinks he was being irrational by reacting harshly to this thread need to ask themselves exactly why he reacted in that way - his interests are in keeping the site running well for the majority of Newgrounds visitors - not just a select few who like to collect stats.

No, we understood, I think, why Wade reacted the way he did to pieoncar's thread and to pieoncar's BBS crawler.

We got our hackles up when he started seemingly threatening ShittyKitty and D0GMA with legal action over their use of NG Lister, when you and I and others were talking peacefully about such things back in January. It seemed an unnecessary, abrupt, radical shift in admin/listmaker relations, that's all.

(massive snip)

At 3/20/05 07:48 PM, liljim wrote: With regard to the Load Balancer that Tim's working to have in place - that doesn't have as much to do with the database as it does to the webservers (they are all related, but when you get into all of that, things turn very complicated). Also, Tim makes no changes to server configuration on a production level until the changes have been tried and tested upon nodes on the cluster that aren't accessible to the general public.

Ahhh, thanks for that bit of info. Didn't realise it was mostly to do with the webserver side of things. Thought it would help out with the database server and such as well.

Over 15 million visit the site every month, generating around 300 million page visits in that time. The portal index page receives well over 200,000 hits per day and links directly to /portal/stats.html, yet for yesterday, just under 200 people clicked through to that page. Other links in the same area of the page generate into 10s of thousands of clickthroughs per day.

That link at the bottom of the portal mainpage isn't that visible, though. And that's the only way to get to that URL without following a link from a search engine or having a shortcut/bookmark to it or manually typing out the URL, though. Don't the other link down there near the Portal Stats link have other links around the site? Anywho...

As S_D pointed out, the stats on that page are, frankly, not that interesting, compared to lists such as Top 50 Users, Top 50 B/P, Top 50 Artists, Top 50 Bookmarked Artists, etc. THAT'S the area of the site we all hope is expanded, though yes, it would certainly be nice if the top 10 reviewers list on the Portal Stats page was scrapped and instead a Top 50 (or more) Reviewers list was added into the USERS section of the site.

All of this is not to say that we don't want to cater to the requests for more statistics, but it shouldn't take a mathematician to work out where our priorities should lie when you look at how many people are actually interested in the statistics compared with the sheer volume of people visiting the site.

Isn't it possible, BTW, that it's the "sheer volumen of people visiting the site," mostly due to Numa Numa, as I said in my above post, that's mostly at fault for all these BBS and portal errors lately, and not SK's programs?

Earlier today was the first time I experienced any significant "thanks for voting/vote.php" and "takepost.php" errors. A shitload of them went down during the afternoon in one ten minute period. No one was running NG Lister at the time, BTW. Not me, Dogma wouldn't do it at that time of day, SK has retired his lists, etc. etc.

I guess I should just drop some of the planned projects for the time being, spend some time on making all the stats available, thus negating the need for third party scripts. That way, we can put this whole argument to bed, even if it does mean sacrificing the wishes of the majority of the users.

Now now, don't try and guilt trip us into saying "take a year to finish if you must, liljim!" #;-}>

You will do it, of course, when you do it. We all just hope that someday it ends up being a bit higher priority than it has been in the past. I think it's no secret that users such as Newgrundling and myself, for instance, have longed for VP ranking in our profiles since early 2003, for instance...

Well, NGling may have given up on waiting, but I'm still here after 2+ years, waiting. I'm a very patient man, liljim. Take yer time, just make it worth our while once you're done. Blow us the fuck away. I'm looking forward to that. #;-}>

Let's not continue this thread with hard feelings. I hate there being a feeling of ill-will between users who obviously care about the site. There are other things to bash out bad temperament on - the assassin section can always do with more celebrity bashings and even Tom/Wade/Jim bashings (don't think I've fallen victim to an assassin flash... yet ;)).

Wade took care of any lasting hard feelings, I think, with his last round of posting. He was very considerate and non-hostile-sounding, and I for one appreciated it.

I haven't seen any Tom/liljim bashing, BTW. Wade is good at taking all the admin-bashing onto himself, kinda like a lightning rod. #;-}>

At 3/20/05 11:48 PM, SeeD419 wrote: Wade, is there anyway you can tell me when I last missed a deposit? I know it's pretty useless information to know, but I've just been curious. As you can see, my signature message might be complete BS, because I think I may have missed one recently.

I can even tell you it's bullshit.

Exp. Points: 2,595 = Deposited 259 days.

You havn't even deposited for a year's worth yet :|

At 3/21/05 12:15 AM, ReconRebel wrote: I don't care how many words you might toss into your long-winded posts to justify your position. It still sounds like whining to me.

Did I MAKE you read any of my posts?

Did I BEG you to read any of them?

Did I even ASK you to read them?

No.

Cut me some slack pal. If you want to know where my loyalty stands try checking out page one of the LUL. I was helping people in this forum long before the lists were running so I'd appreciate it if you'd lay off the morality crap.

What the heck is that supposed to mean? Your loyalty lies with spancker and saying "level up! I'm level 11! EAT THAT, EVERYONE ELSE!" That makes no sense whatsoever.

I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't reply to my posts with "OMG, GFOX, YOU WHINER," and "NEED A TISSUE?" and shit like that. You think my shit is full of moralising? What about yours?

As for your post from page 1, that's all good and well. I, OTOH, was talking about other posts of yours which you didn't bother to hunt down. Such as:

At 3/15/05 11:46 PM, ReconRebel wrote: You know what makes me laugh D0GMA? The fact that Wade bothered to answer most of your rants. Ever wonder how many e-mails he gets bombarded with every day? After reading through this thread what really pisses me off is not not only the audacity of your statements but the fact that you're wrong. Period. If you want to play with bandwidth then start your own site. Excuse me but I have deposits to make.

At 3/16/05 10:08 PM, ReconRebel wrote:

At 3/16/05 04:58 PM, ShittyKitty wrote: I think the recent bout of BBS errors was due to pieoncar's BBS spider, because it was pulling topic after topic.

Couldn't say. That's not something I'm familiar with but I have gotten a number of server errors today and that has me wondering. It's a bit disturbing to me that a number of you place so much emphasis on statistics. I've never advertised my stats since joining this site unlike most of you, and I never will. The reason is simple. It's already listed in my profile. If someone wants to take the time to look it's only a click away. Advertising your stats is just another "attention whore" technique. The thread where this discussion was started has turned into joke. Those last six posts by D0GMA may have taken 2 hours to type but it only took me two seconds to ignore them (well, I did read the last sentence in the last post). In any case this forum ran just fine before the first stat list was created and I'm sure it can run just as well without them. I'm not planning on leaving Newgrounds if the lists are removed, that would be stupid. Some of you really need to get a grip on your priorities in life. A computer screen is a dangerous place from which to view the world.

At 3/17/05 12:39 AM, ReconRebel wrote:

At 3/17/05 12:03 AM, -Myst- wrote: Don't do shit talks for no reason, 'cause everyone could do it about everyone, you included.

Haha! Point taken. I'm still pissed at the comments D0GMA made but after talking with a couple of other Wi/Ht? members via e-mail I see I'm not the only one. I can understand why they wouldn't want to get involved in this crap. I find it amusing that the two biggest players in this disagreement don't have any submissions to their credit and this is a flash site.

THIS is the stuff from you I meant I was ignoring because I figured you were spooked by Wade. But then, days later, to read your post on page 5 of this topic, directed RIGHT at me?

To read you say "So why are you still whining about it?" "Would you like a tissue?" and "Jesus. What a read. I'm amazed I stayed awake. I have a question gfox. When you mentioned being a writer in your profile you were talking about repair manuals and such weren't you?"

That was the last freakin' straw. Can you honestly read all the shit you've said about Dogma and me and anyone else in the past few days and then expect me NOT to be upset by what you topped it off with some direct insults?

Wade had every right to be upset about the data programs being run and yet you still egged him on with your posts. If this site didn't exist this discussion about stats wouldn't be happening and I wouldn't be wasting my time talking to you.

I didn't egg shit on. In fact, Wade never directly replied to any of my posts. Only Dogma's posts seemed to get him going. My posts were filled with statements of fact AND opinion to try and speak up for my side of the situation. Something you apparently don't understand.

Oh, and speaking of wasting your time talking to me... who was it who decided to rejoin this topic and reply to one of MY posts to insult me? Oh, that's right, again... it was YOU.

How about you just IGNORE me instead... seeing as how it's such a timewaster to read/reply to my posts, Recon. Please, do us both a favour.

Thanks for taking the time to give us a detailed explanation liljim. I was wondering when your post was going to show up. Hope you had fun in Japan. You should get some sleep and shake off that jet lag. I know you're tired ;-)

It seems you tired of kissing Wade's ass and decided to move on to liljim's. He doesn't really like that, BTW.

As far as hiring help for James. We have offered to hire someone to help him, but he explained to us it wouldn't really help, and I totally agree with him. To many cooks in the kitchen spoil the soup. If we have some other guy coding things for the site, those are scripts and things that Liljim doesn't know about, or would have to review. So he'd basically spend time watching someone else work. In order for Liljim to keep this site running smoothly, he has to know the entire system like the back of his hand. If someone else is doing things, it would make it very hard for him to know why certain things are happening, he'd have to investigate, etc.

So as long as LilJim prefers to work alone, that's the way it will be. If he ever says "Could I hire my friend who's really good with PHP to help code some things for us?" I'm sure we'd be open to the idea.

It's kinda like if you were buliding your own hot rod, then one day someone else was working on it when you weren't there and you go in the following day and are like "WTF?! What's this? How did this get there? What does this do? UHG!" and spend all day figuring out what the hell changed. :)

At 3/21/05 12:37 AM, gfoxclock wrote: It seems you tired of kissing Wade's ass and decided to move on to liljim's. He doesn't really like that, BTW.

This is real mature. How old are you? Just for the record, I've responded to less than 5 posts by Wade and/or liljim in almost 3 years. I'd hardly call that ass kissing. The man just got back from Japan and still took the time to respond in this thread. He mentioned he was tired in his "Noodles" thread (which I didn't post in) so I threw something into my post here. I guess those lists of yours were like a legacy 'eh? My god gfox, how will you and your OCD ever survive now? Get the last word in. Say whatever you want, I won't respond. I've had it with you and your anal attitude.

At 3/21/05 12:40 AM, WadeFulp wrote: To many cooks in the kitchen spoil the soup.

Never heard that saying before :P

But yeah, I wondered if that was the reasoning why. I'm not so sure as to how well you would be able to divide up the tasks. I wasn't sure if you were able to set it to where James could work on ____ parts of the site and NewGuy work on the other parts or if it's all too interconnected.

Although, the way you put it the new person would have the same amount of athority on coding as James. What if he was just an assisant to James and would only work on what James said to? That way James wouldn't be surprised by anything, though he might need to still review the work. But I would assume that reviewing work is a lot less time consuming than doing it :P

Of course, I'm mostly going off the basis that once you know what to do, most of the time spent coding is just writing the script or other such "busy" work. Heh, I'm ignorant to such things though :P

So as long as LilJim prefers to work alone, that's the way it will be.

As long as he's happy :)