I'd probably be working in the industry by now if I had grasped the importance of using good reference (as opposed to just relying on my memory and imagination) much sooner:
Let's Put an End to the "Using References" Debate Once and for all.
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At 11/25/23 12:36 PM, jthrash wrote: I'd probably be working in the industry by now if I had grasped the importance of using good reference (as opposed to just relying on my memory and imagination) much sooner:
I think if you were to engineer the ultimate artist, you'd train them on reality until they have experience with every combination of light, gesture and texture, and then let them freestyle from imagination. That's what Hieronymus Bosch did.
I didn't even think this was a debate
tries too hard to be edgy and is blocked by many because he acts rude towards others to feel better about himself.
There is no debate. People who say "don't use references" don't know what they're talking about.
At 11/25/23 10:43 PM, SeijiArt wrote: There is no debate. People who say "don't use references" don't know what they're talking about.
Maybe it's not a debate, per se, but it's definitely a misconception that beginning artists and the average non-artist admirer has that artists completely make up every little detail in their brain without so much as a quick Google Image search to help them figure out subtle details like, say, how a camel's snout looks compared to a dog or a horse.
At 11/25/23 08:23 PM, RKarlto wrote:At 11/25/23 12:36 PM, jthrash wrote: I'd probably be working in the industry by now if I had grasped the importance of using good reference (as opposed to just relying on my memory and imagination) much sooner:I think if you were to engineer the ultimate artist, you'd train them on reality until they have experience with every combination of light, gesture and texture, and then let them freestyle from imagination. That's what Hieronymus Bosch did.
Coincidentally, I'm working on studying how light works these days due to not wanting to be too reliant on ultra-powerful hardware and software to make convincing lighting in my 3D renders. Plus, I admire 3D lighting artists from the very early days of 3D rendering who had to figure out ways to "fake" things that we now take for granted, like Global Illumination and reflections.
The point is, though, especially when you are starting out, you need to build up a "mental library" to get really comfortable with a subject through years of practicing off of good reference. If you practice enough, you could at least get to the point where you can draw a generic version of, say, a chair, without having to download thousands of images, check to make sure some of them are not mushy AI-generated images and actual photos, and set up a mood board in PureRef, all just to draw a freakin' chair.
At 11/25/23 10:36 PM, MetalSlayer69 wrote: I didn't even think this was a debate
Honestly, maybe it's more of a debate of how closely you follow the reference before it becomes straight-up copying, especially if it's based on a real person. You definitely need reference if you tend to forget little details like a zipper pocket found in the type of jackets you like to draw, for example, but inventing our own unique details and art styles is (for now) what separates us from AI-art generators that merely mush random images and photos together with a glorified noise filter to generate a new-ish image.
I was once told of an alumni at the art college I went to who got a good grade on a character design project, only to get expelled for plagiarism when it was discovered they traced over a promotional image of Borderlands 1's characters and made subtle tweaks to the hair styles and clothing in an attempt to make it less of an exact copy.
Or to bring up a morbid, incendiary example, the supposed non-consenting muse that inspired Cassette Girls design...
No one worth listening to is gonna argue against the merits of references. Its only a problem when you rely on it to carry your art instead of raising your core fundamental skills.
I'm glad that these forums are not fertile ground for anti-reference propaganda, considering how many pockets are out there on the internet that coddle and shelter baby artists from learning basic fundamentals. It's hard enough as it is without the disinformation and complacency with skillessness and mediocrity.
That said, I'm fairly certain that even if it's not up for debate here, there are plenty that quietly refuse to use them or think they'll progress without them. Hopefully at some point they stop avoiding it and allow themselves to improve.
I don't think I could do it without references.
"My character's hand is now a banana."
At 11/26/23 11:55 PM, Skoops wrote: I'm glad that these forums are not fertile ground for anti-reference propaganda, considering how many pockets are out there on the internet that coddle and shelter baby artists from learning basic fundamentals. It's hard enough as it is without the disinformation and complacency with skillessness and mediocrity.
That said, I'm fairly certain that even if it's not up for debate here, there are plenty that quietly refuse to use them or think they'll progress without them. Hopefully at some point they stop avoiding it and allow themselves to improve.
This sadly isn't too far of a stretch if you look into the music community as well ("eww, don't bother learning music theory"). There's a whole lot of gatekeeping and fearmongering on artists in general learning the basics and picking up their skill pieces and pieces at a time .. which is where references are incredible (if not essential) as learning materials to help people get their foot through the door in the first place.
At 11/27/23 09:00 AM, Alenicia wrote:At 11/26/23 11:55 PM, Skoops wrote: I'm glad that these forums are not fertile ground for anti-reference propaganda, considering how many pockets are out there on the internet that coddle and shelter baby artists from learning basic fundamentals. It's hard enough as it is without the disinformation and complacency with skillessness and mediocrity.This sadly isn't too far of a stretch if you look into the music community as well ("eww, don't bother learning music theory"). There's a whole lot of gatekeeping and fearmongering on artists in general learning the basics and picking up their skill pieces and pieces at a time .. which is where references are incredible (if not essential) as learning materials to help people get their foot through the door in the first place.
That said, I'm fairly certain that even if it's not up for debate here, there are plenty that quietly refuse to use them or think they'll progress without them. Hopefully at some point they stop avoiding it and allow themselves to improve.
I'm sure it's much the same in any creative endeavor. Novices always start with whatever's most intuitive, meaning for a good long while at the beginning they're not spending any time looking to external sources for guidance. If they stay in that mode for too long, it makes consulting references feel alien, unnatural, dishonest. They think "I got this far without any help, who's to say I can't make it the rest of the way there on my own?" Turns out it's everyone that makes it all the way there that's saying you gotta use references, but the beginners often fight against that until (or if) they realize they've been wasting their time trying to self-manifest better work.
Wait until the beginners hear that a lot of "big names" also use Zbrush/blender/3dsMax in their workflow beyond 2d drawing programs, or that even when they do oil paints, they make 1st a lot of studies digitally combining various references and tools. Doing digital study is cheaper than painting tests on canvas.
From DA forums some time back, when I still visited that place, I heard such gem that - people using references are essentially uncreative and bad. I to this day do not know if this person was trolling or serious, even when their own gallery posts always had this "no references used" comment. It seems that for some people using aide is a sin, weakness - some kind of shame.
I think also a lot of beginner artists think, when we speak of references, we speak of copying the reference and not observing a form, light, or material or any other detail that we seek for our current work.
One thing i genuinely dislike, despite me believing art is freedom of expression, is that, when people clearly do not know how to do something (i.e. anatomy) and then call it a 'style'. ... oh my.
At 11/28/23 03:41 AM, Tenebrare wrote: One thing i genuinely dislike, despite me believing art is freedom of expression, is that, when people clearly do not know how to do something (i.e. anatomy) and then call it a 'style'. ... oh my.
I'm very careful these days to say that style is informed simplification, exactly for that reason.
Artists are free to blindly guess at what something looks like, if that's their preferred method of expression. They just need to be honest about that, because it doesn't fool anyone.
If you say "using references is cheating", you are a retard. It's that simple.
