Are there any decent game controllers?

[NeonSpider]

Do there exist any modern decent game controllers? Because I've used a lot of them and the experience is that they're pretty shit.

Back in the day, NES, SNES, Genesis, and so on controllers seemed to last for years and never have any problems. Maybe you could have a bad controller here or there but it certainly wasn't common.

Starting in the 2000s it's like controllers went to complete shit and never recovered. Overall, D-pads became shittier and shittier. Buttons would rip through the thin flimsy rubber internal layer and then never work correctly after that. Rubber on the controllers would become sticky and oozy.

And it didn't really matter what brand you went with, whether name-brand or not, or for what console, they were all just pretty much terrible across-the-board.

Overall, modern controllers (those made after the year 2000) were not lasting more than a year or two, whereas retro controllers (at least first party controllers that came stock with the consoles) were still in good shape since ages ago. What's the deal here?

I'm tired of this complete lack of quality in game controllers and having to continually re-buy this shit only to have it break within a year and sometimes within a month.

I thought I would avoid these problems with the common membrane controllers and go with a mechanical controller, of which there aren't many options outside of Razer, so I recently purchased a Razer Wolverine Ultimate, thinking this would be the end of all these controller problems.

Nope.

While I haven't had any of those other problems (then again it is still brand new), the Razer Wolverine Ultimate has a new problem I haven't had with any other controller. Rapid press of the buttons is severely hindered! It is quite simply not physically possible to press the buttons fast enough for my liking. And while I could just use some kind of turbo function, I don't really like playing games that way. I would rather play them as intended.

Quite simply, I can physically press the buttons faster on just about any other controller, than this one. And maybe that doesn't matter for casual gamers or people who aren't playing the toughest games, but it certainly does matter once you get above a certain skill level.

On the plus side, hopefully this controller won't die out on me (certainly not due to the membrane rip problem endemic of most controllers), but on the minus side, it's not suitable for many of the games I would like to play because the buttons simply cannot be pressed fast enough. Almost any SHMUP for example.

So, does anyone know of a modern game controller that isn't shit? That is, which won't break within a few years, and which is suitable for players of higher skill levels? And which doesn't have a shit D-pad?

This should be a very simple formula but apparently nobody gets it right. Controller needs to be responsive, needs to not break under normal use, needs to not break down over time, needs a good D-Pad. Even though many of the vintage game controllers had membrane as well, they didn't seem to suffer from the ripping problem at least, though they potentially could, being membrane and all.

Why is it companies seem completely incapable of making any decent controllers since around the year 2000 or so? They've all been shit since then, in one way or another.

I'll pay good money if I think I won't have to keep re-buying controllers all the time. I just want something good that'll last and which won't hinder my playstyle.

[le-squidjerky]

man i was gonna say 8BitDo but then again they mostly do bluetooth controllers and are more for 'retro-esque' controllers. I own an N30 Pro 2 and the controls are pretty good on that thing considering it being wireless but tbh you might wanna go deeper than that and explore for yourself.

[NeonSpider]

At 2/25/21 11:42 PM, le-squidjerky wrote: man i was gonna say 8BitDo but then again they mostly do bluetooth controllers and are more for 'retro-esque' controllers. I own an N30 Pro 2 and the controls are pretty good on that thing considering it being wireless but tbh you might wanna go deeper than that and explore for yourself.

They look nice and it is one thing I looked at. Looking more into it they even have connectors to actually use them on vintage NES and SNES consoles if you want (these cost extra). A very nice touch!

It can be used with USB, so that is preferable. Unfortunately I think it uses USB-C and if your computer doesn't have a USB-C port, it is risky to use a USB-C to USB-A adapter cable as a bad cable will permanently ruin that USB-A port on your computer, at the very least, if not further damage. Of course if the cable isn't faulty this isn't a problem, but is it worth the risk? There have been many such faulty USB-C to USB-A adapter cables sold.

One thing is that is advertised on both Walmart and Best Buy's websites, however neither store actually carries the item in store. And I went to the 8BitDo website itself and seems you can't even buy it directly from their site but through Amazon.

Do you know if it is mechanical or is it membrane gamepad? This information wasn't provided. Again, the main problem I tend to have with membrane gamepads is that thin rubber membrane will rip through at some point and then render whatever button managed to rip through the thing permanently unusable, and at that point the controller is no good anymore.

Most of the old vintage game controllers were also membrane type, though I never had that membrane ripping problem with them. At least if it's mechanical I know it won't have that exact problem, but unfortunately could have some other problem.

If I ever see one in a store sometime I may buy one, and hope it works well, but I've thus far not seen them for sale anywhere except I guess if you order it through Amazon.

But I want to say, good recommendation, and thanks for the reply. It's not one I've tried. Worth a shot. Whether it will meet my uses or not, hard to say until/unless I can obtain one. Because unfortunately you can read all kind of online reviews and you won't really know until/unless you try it yourself.

For example, I've not heard/read about any sort of limitation as to how fast you can rapidly press the buttons on the Razer Wolverine Ultimate, yet that is the problem I have with it. I will guess that most other people cannot press buttons as fast as I can, and so have not run into such a limit that they notice, and it may explain why buttons are getting ripped through in my membrane controllers and many are not lasting me but a year or two, but again this is definitely a build quality issue and I should be able to press the buttons as fast as I like and *without* the controller dying on me for doing so.

It's very similar to when a keyboard will slow down your typing, whereas you can physically type much faster but the keyboard itself is the weak link and replace with a more responsive keyboard, get better performance. So it's not a defect in that controller, per-se, it's just I can press buttons significantly faster than it can handle and so it is literally slowing me down. And again, it's not a problem everyone will have, because if your fastest is still within the range of what the device can do, you're fine. In my case I'm faster.

[NeonSpider]

Also, I should note that some Linux user was complaining on Razer's forum, claiming the Wolverine didn't work on Linux. And this is probably the first thing you'll find on a Google search. Fairly recent (This month)

Now, I have the Wolverine Ultimate, which is the more elite version of that controller. It works perfectly fine on Linux and I can't imagine the base model would be any different in that regard. Sounds like the guy just didn't know what he was doing and/or hadn't installed some thing necessary to make it work.

It does work under Linux. The only thing is you won't have access to Razer Synapse, and so you will be stuck with the default config, basically.

Again, the problem I have with the gamepad isn't that it doesn't work. It's that I can't press the buttons as fast as I'd like to and as fast as I can press them on other gamepad controllers. And so this hinders my playstyle.

[NewBoy666777]

The xbox one feels nice but is a bit to cheaply made,ps4 is my favourite of the last gen because its sturdy and didnt take up all your hand space

[le-squidjerky]

Do you know if it is mechanical or is it membrane gamepad? This information wasn't provided. Again, the main problem I tend to have with membrane gamepads is that thin rubber membrane will rip through at some point and then render whatever button managed to rip through the thing permanently unusable, and at that point the controller is no good anymore.

yea they're pretty much membrane controllers bro. Although after a bit of research some lad on reddit was able to mod the sn30pro+ controller to be a bit more mechanical

[Jackho]

I don't share your pain. If you're talking about PC gamepads I think the major console controllers have eaten the market, and the 8th gen lineup (Xbox and PS4, haven't tried Switch) are probably my favorite controllers ever and I wouldn't even consider an off-brand alternative.

NES and SNES peripherals have a unique quality to them but I find it a definite downgrade to go back to anything else. The D pads, sticks, ergonomics and overall quality of the 8th gen controllers I find to be clear and significant upgrades over at minimum the three gens prior. Though I don't think I've ever had a controller go 'oozy', any piece of technology is going to break down over time. FWIW one of the only controllers that died on me of its own accord was an NES one.

[NeonSpider]

At 3/4/21 05:38 PM, Jackho wrote: I don't share your pain. If you're talking about PC gamepads I think the major console controllers have eaten the market, and the 8th gen lineup (Xbox and PS4, haven't tried Switch) are probably my favorite controllers ever and I wouldn't even consider an off-brand alternative.

NES and SNES peripherals have a unique quality to them but I find it a definite downgrade to go back to anything else. The D pads, sticks, ergonomics and overall quality of the 8th gen controllers I find to be clear and significant upgrades over at minimum the three gens prior. Though I don't think I've ever had a controller go 'oozy', any piece of technology is going to break down over time. FWIW one of the only controllers that died on me of its own accord was an NES one.

That a joke? The last good D-pad was that of the Nintendo 64 controller. Everything after has been sub-par. And I'd much prefer a controller with a good D-pad on it. Nintendo went the way of making the D-pad way too small on everything after that, Sony and Microsoft always had horrible D-pads. 3rd party controllers aren't much better considering they tend to mimic one of those three.

And I guess you never owned a PlayStation 2 then. The rubber on the joysticks of pretty much all of those controllers start turning to liquid ooze at some point. It's sticky. And it will ooze a liquid. And you can clean it off but it'll just come back shortly. It is a byproduct of the rubber itself breaking down over time. The only fix is rip out all the rubber from the joysticks. But those aren't the only controllers that do it.

Meanwhile the rubber on old controllers (start and select buttons on NES and SNES controllers for example), *never* has done that.

And yeah, it's not impossible that a NES controller can go bad. A lot of the 3rd party controllers from that era were terrible, but the stock controllers were good. But again it's not impossible. I've never had to replace any NES or SNES controllers I own. I've had to replace countless other controllers. Again, usually because the buttons just give out and that thin membrane (internal to the controller) rips through on one of the buttons. And usually after not but a year or two.

Oh and I've used my NES and SNES controllers A LOT. It's not like they haven't gotten plenty of years of use over the years. And they've held up fine. Even playing the real button masher games.

Or basically, I disagree entirely with your assessment that controllers have gotten better over time. No, they have gotten significantly worse, overall.

[Jackho]

At 3/4/21 10:00 PM, NeonSpider wrote: That a joke? The last good D-pad was that of the Nintendo 64 controller.

The N64 controller would be one of my examples of a thorough bad design, I don't like any part of it and its analogue stick is known to have a high failure rate.

I don't find anything wrong with modern D pads, I've played plenty of 2D and retro games on the PS4 D-dad in particular and prefer it, or at least don't find it a notable downgrade, from that of any retro controller.

The rubber on all my PS2 (PS1 even) controllers are still fine. Your experience here honestly sounds like confirmation bias.

If you're really stuck on your old controllers though you can get USB or bluetooth adapters for pretty much every retro controller to work on PC, or sometimes with modern systems (to play old games on Switch or whatever).

[NeonSpider]

At 3/5/21 06:11 AM, Jackho wrote:

At 3/4/21 10:00 PM, NeonSpider wrote: That a joke? The last good D-pad was that of the Nintendo 64 controller.

The N64 controller would be one of my examples of a thorough bad design, I don't like any part of it and its analogue stick is known to have a high failure rate.

Yes I specifically said its D-pad was good, not its joystick. Although one advantage the joystick has over some is since it is entirely plastic, it cannot possibly suffer from the melting/sticky rubber syndrome of the joysticks of some controllers.

I don't find anything wrong with modern D pads, I've played plenty of 2D and retro games on the PS4 D-dad in particular and prefer it, or at least don't find it a notable downgrade, from that of any retro controller.

If you don't have a problem with it, then they work fine for you. They are noticeably inferior to me. The old D-pads were just the right size. After that point, Nintendo began making them way too small. Sony's are these little nubs which are even worse. And Microsoft's are too low. Basically, if it's not broke, don't "fix" it, and the traditional style D-pads were literally perfect.

The rubber on all my PS2 (PS1 even) controllers are still fine. Your experience here honestly sounds like confirmation bias.

I've gone through several such controllers. This isn't a problem with just one controller. Literally every PlayStation 2 controller I have has the problem, aside from the ones I've ripped the rubber out. You gonna tell me an identical problem on 8 different controllers, purchased at different times, is "just confirmation bias"?

Go pick up your PlayStation 2 controller and I bet the rubber on the joysticks will be sticky. Twirl the sticks around and look at the base, and you will see a liquid. Smell it and it will have a chemical smell. You can clean it off with rubbing alcohol to an extent, and even get rid of the stickiness that way, but it will just come back in a short time. It is literally because the rubber is chemically breaking down because they didn't mix the right ingredients into it at time of manufacture so that it wouldn't do that -- it is a thing rubber naturally does.

So either I think you just didn't notice, or you haven't picked up your PlayStation 2 controller to play in a while, or you are lying. Or you just got insanely lucky and they gave you properly-treated rubber on yours and not the kind that breaks down over time. But probably the former.

If you're really stuck on your old controllers though you can get USB or bluetooth adapters for pretty much every retro controller to work on PC, or sometimes with modern systems (to play old games on Switch or whatever).

Adapters add lag or latency. I've tried it with GameCube controller (which yes has way too small of D-pad and suffers from one of the buttons being not responsive). Got a USB adapter for that, used it with my PC, and the bit of added latency isn't acceptable. And wireless would just be worse. So that seems like a non-solution.

There are some somewhat decent gamepads for the PC but that are from before the times of USB and use/require ports no longer present on modern machines.

Again, what we need is someone to just make a GOOD gamepad in modern times.

[Jackho]

At 3/5/21 11:00 AM, NeonSpider wrote: Yes I specifically said its D-pad was good, not its joystick.

The N64 d-pad is probably its least egregious element, for the two or so games that use it. Still prefer the one on the PS4 though.

You gonna tell me an identical problem on 8 different controllers, purchased at different times, is "just confirmation bias"?

I meant more your dogged insistence that every controller released after 1996 has to be shit, but I dug out my PS2 controllers and they still seem fine cosmetically, no noticeable smell etc. I'd never even heard of this problem before and you're telling me you had it 8 times in a row, I'm tempted to point out that you're the common factor there (but probably it's a climate thing or something else).

Again, what we need is someone to just make a GOOD gamepad in modern times.

Well again, there are plenty, and this doesn't seem to be a common complaint these days. What you seem to want is not a 'good' controller but one perfectly tailored to your ideal specifications, at this rate I can't see it happening short of a bespoke deal or launching your own. I'll support your kickstarter

I have a SNES replica controller from 8bitdo, a company mentioned earlier in the thread. I would have said they were almost indistinguishable but comparing them side by side there's much more of a definitive click and slightly more travel to the 8bitdo's buttons, they definitely can't be mashed as rapidly as the original. The d-pad is also stiffer and with slightly more travel too.

[NeonSpider]

At 3/5/21 01:46 PM, Jackho wrote:

At 3/5/21 11:00 AM, NeonSpider wrote: Yes I specifically said its D-pad was good, not its joystick.

The N64 d-pad is probably its least egregious element, for the two or so games that use it. Still prefer the one on the PS4 though.

Why? You can't get good diagonals on that. Of course if you primarily use the joystick and only secondarily use the D-pad, maybe you won't care as much. But I much prefer using the D-pad in games where that's possible, over any joystick. For one, a D-pad is much more responsive than a joystick, and timing matters in harder games. It takes nonzero time to move the joystick from center to far left, for example, while it takes significantly less time to press left on the D-pad. What if you have to rapidly press left and right a bunch? Easy and fast on a D-pad, slow on a joystick.

You gonna tell me an identical problem on 8 different controllers, purchased at different times, is "just confirmation bias"?

I meant more your dogged insistence that every controller released after 1996 has to be shit, but I dug out my PS2 controllers and they still seem fine cosmetically, no noticeable smell etc. I'd never even heard of this problem before and you're telling me you had it 8 times in a row, I'm tempted to point out that you're the common factor there (but probably it's a climate thing or something else).

https://www.instructables.com/How-to-Clean-Sticky-Rubber/

I mean it's just what rubber does, if it's not properly prepared and with the right additives in the first place. That article shows the problem but on cameras, but the exact same thing happens on game controllers, toys, umbrellas, etc,... that have rubber on them, just depending on the quality of the rubber and how it was made and what additives it has, if any.

What that doesn't show is the liquid left behind, but when the rubber starts to get sticky, after a while it will also leave behind a liquid. You indeed can clean it off using rubbing alcohol, but it will come back and happen again and again once it has ever happened on an item, unless you completely remove all the rubber.

When you clean off some exposed and deteriorating rubber layer on the outer layer, and expose perhaps "new" rubber underneath, it is only a matter of time, and often not that much time, before it continues the degradation process.

Incidentally, plastics also can have a problem, but a different problem from that, in which they become a brittle powder that crumbles in your hands. This also depends on how the plastic was made. I haven't had this happen on standard game controllers, but I have had it happen on a Guitar Hero controller, and it's known to affect certain toys and other products.

Again, what we need is someone to just make a GOOD gamepad in modern times.

Well again, there are plenty, and this doesn't seem to be a common complaint these days. What you seem to want is not a 'good' controller but one perfectly tailored to your ideal specifications, at this rate I can't see it happening short of a bespoke deal or launching your own. I'll support your kickstarter

There are not plenty of good controllers or I would not have the complaint. And what is "good enough" for someone of average skill level or for easier games may not be "good enough" for someone of a higher skill level or playing tougher games.

Do note I have played, and beaten, many very hard (and by some people claimed "impossible") games over the years, including most of the classically hard games. My needs aren't going to be the same as someone only playing easier games.

I have a SNES replica controller from 8bitdo, a company mentioned earlier in the thread. I would have said they were almost indistinguishable but comparing them side by side there's much more of a definitive click and slightly more travel to the 8bitdo's buttons, they definitely can't be mashed as rapidly as the original. The d-pad is also stiffer and with slightly more travel too.

Yeah I can't say how that controller is or not as I've not had the opportunity to try it. It is a possible one to try.

But yes, we need good D-pad, responsive button-press, with buttons that don't wear out, with decent joysticks, and so forth. One problem a lot of people have which I have not mentioned is joysticks gaining a drifting problem over time, so there is another negative of modern controllers, in particular the Switch and XBox controllers. I haven't had this particular problem (yet?) but it is another quality control point to note.

And the controller needs to be wired so as to minimize any latency, but this doesn't do much good if the buttons themselves are not responsive enough.

And the problem with a sub-par D-pad is the diagonals are going to be a real hassle, for starters. You don't have these problems on a NES, SNES, Gameboy (original model), or Nintendo64 controller. And neither do you have these problems on a Sega Genesis or Game Gear.

[FrodoDwaggins23]

At 2/25/21 06:01 PM, NeonSpider wrote: Do there exist any modern decent game controllers? Because I've used a lot of them and the experience is that they're pretty shit.

Back in the day, NES, SNES, Genesis, and so on controllers seemed to last for years and never have any problems. Maybe you could have a bad controller here or there but it certainly wasn't common.

Starting in the 2000s it's like controllers went to complete shit and never recovered. Overall, D-pads became shittier and shittier. Buttons would rip through the thin flimsy rubber internal layer and then never work correctly after that. Rubber on the controllers would become sticky and oozy.

And it didn't really matter what brand you went with, whether name-brand or not, or for what console, they were all just pretty much terrible across-the-board.

Overall, modern controllers (those made after the year 2000) were not lasting more than a year or two, whereas retro controllers (at least first party controllers that came stock with the consoles) were still in good shape since ages ago. What's the deal here?

I'm tired of this complete lack of quality in game controllers and having to continually re-buy this shit only to have it break within a year and sometimes within a month.

I thought I would avoid these problems with the common membrane controllers and go with a mechanical controller, of which there aren't many options outside of Razer, so I recently purchased a Razer Wolverine Ultimate, thinking this would be the end of all these controller problems.

Nope.

While I haven't had any of those other problems (then again it is still brand new), the Razer Wolverine Ultimate has a new problem I haven't had with any other controller. Rapid press of the buttons is severely hindered! It is quite simply not physically possible to press the buttons fast enough for my liking. And while I could just use some kind of turbo function, I don't really like playing games that way. I would rather play them as intended.

Quite simply, I can physically press the buttons faster on just about any other controller, than this one. And maybe that doesn't matter for casual gamers or people who aren't playing the toughest games, but it certainly does matter once you get above a certain skill level.

On the plus side, hopefully this controller won't die out on me (certainly not due to the membrane rip problem endemic of most controllers), but on the minus side, it's not suitable for many of the games I would like to play because the buttons simply cannot be pressed fast enough. Almost any SHMUP for example.

So, does anyone know of a modern game controller that isn't shit? That is, which won't break within a few years, and which is suitable for players of higher skill levels? And which doesn't have a shit D-pad?

This should be a very simple formula but apparently nobody gets it right. Controller needs to be responsive, needs to not break under normal use, needs to not break down over time, needs a good D-Pad. Even though many of the vintage game controllers had membrane as well, they didn't seem to suffer from the ripping problem at least, though they potentially could, being membrane and all.

Why is it companies seem completely incapable of making any decent controllers since around the year 2000 or so? They've all been shit since then, in one way or another.

I'll pay good money if I think I won't have to keep re-buying controllers all the time. I just want something good that'll last and which won't hinder my playstyle.

Arrogant Bastard Gamepad is pretty good, not too expensive or too cheap. It has rumble function and works well!

I use it and i am happy with it

[Jackho]

At 3/5/21 04:46 PM, NeonSpider wrote: Why? You can't get good diagonals on that.

You totally can, it feels much the same as the old nintendo ones with a slightly more ergonomic contour. They look like four different buttons but that's just a stylistic thing, it's all one plus-shaped piece underneath and feels like it (and I find it much nicer than the previous Sony pads).

[PachiiMochii]

I have a personal love for the sega saturn controller, specifically the thinner variant than the big chonky one. It just feels right in my hands, and its just really comfy to hold and use, and is absolutely perfect for fighting games~